Finale - Transcript

[KARLI]  Occasionally we have a spurt of funny.

[JAMIE]  That sounds gross.

[KARLI]  I thought it as soon as it came out of my mouth I was like, it's too late. It's out there now.

[JAMIE]  Is that a thing I want to have said? [Karli laughs]

[KARLI]  Everything is fine. This is fine.

[JAMIE]  Right? That's incredible what tiny, tiny, miniscule things that can, like send me to be like, like, am I having a panic attack? Or am I just cold? Or is my whole identity going to get stolen online? Because all of a sudden, this thing is giving me an error that says is not a secure email? Like not an email, like the place where I go to just view any email? So do I have a panic attack? Or if I clear my cache, does that fix everything? [Karli laughs] Turns out both.

[KARLI]  I wish that there was a way to clear our mental cache.

[JAMIE]  Right? Because maybe I would stop getting all these errors. [laughs]

[KARLI]  Exactly.

[JAMIE]  And, and now, it's that sweet start of November, it's that thin line, you just teetering on the edge of, should I just call it for the year, or really try and make the last two months count? And the slightest breeze could blow me either way.

[KARLI]  I think the funny thing about November, NaNo specifically, since NaNoWriMo is thick in the air. We're near the end of the year, and we're like, I'm tired. And I just want to curl up with a book. And you're like, either I do nothing. Or I write 50,000 words in 30 days. There's no in between. [both laugh]

[JAMIE]  The false dichotomy of there's only these two options.

[KARLI]  Just two.

[JAMIE]  I couldn't just work like a normal human pace. I have to be hyper productive or a potato.

[KARLI]  Right?

[JAMIE]  How are you feeling?

[KARLI]  I want to do stuff.

[JAMIE]  But do you? [Karli laughs]

[KARLI]  But that's different than actually feeling like I can't do stuff. You know what I mean? I want—I want to want to do stuff.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, that makes sense that tracks.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE]  Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI]  Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE]  Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI]  Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE]  Welcome to the finest podcast ever produced out of these spare bedrooms. We are so grateful that you have come to join us here. For us, it's more like you're here in spirit. Thanks for pressing play, tuning in. I still, two seasons later feel like I want to say tuning in. But that is an outdated reference.

[KARLI]  I don't care, please keep saying it.

[JAMIE]  Keep tuning in.

[KARLI]  I love when people tune in and are here in spirit.

[JAMIE]  I'm Jamie Redact, a science fiction and speculative fiction author of five different manuscripts all at various stages of trunked querying, editing. And number six is now in officially in the drafting phase.

[KARLI]  Woot woot. I am K.C. Ash, speculative grimdark fantasy writer, slowly climbing my way out of vibe soup for a better perspective of all the creative ideas I have to offer.

[JAMIE]  Hopefully, your book is still a form of vibe soup when it's done, so that people can cozy in.

[KARLI]  Yeah, but I need to climb out of it. Yeah, like I want people to be able to get in it. But like—

[JAMIE]  You want to serve people vibes don't want actually be vibe soup. [both chuckle]

[KARLI]  Exactly. Exactly.

[JAMIE]  That makes sense. I can get behind that. Today, I was hoping that we would do a sort of year-ish in review. Sure. There's some year left, but this will be our season finale here on the outbreak podcast. So that Karli and I both have the opportunity to shift gears and maybe get more writing in before 2023 hits. Maybe. But you know.

[KARLI]  Here's hoping.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, give ourselves some space to have the opportunity to do that. If it feels like something that will not kill us. [both chuckle]

[KARLI]  I don't know what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Right?

[JAMIE]  That's stupid. No, I always think what doesn't kill you might make you wish you were dead.

[KARLI]  What doesn't kill you might make you terribly ill.

[JAMIE]  What doesn't kill you might—

[KARLI]  Cripple you. [both chuckle] Sorry, we're getting real dark. Alright, let's dial it back, dial it back.

[JAMIE]  Ending on a happy note.

[KARLI]  Yeah. Reflections, reflections and things.

[JAMIE]  Yeah. Because it's been it's, I mean, two months is a little bit, but it's like you're—let's, let's wrap this 2022 situation up.

[KARLI]  Box it up, put it on a shelf in the garage, move along.

[JAMIE]  Box it up, put it on a truck, drive, to a shuttle, shoot that shuttle into space.

[KARLI]  Into space.

[JAMIE]  Crash it into the sun.

[KARLI]  Yeah, I like that much better than it sitting in the garage.

[JAMIE]  This is the difference between the packrat and the minimalist. [both laugh]

[KARLI]  True.

[JAMIE]  She's even keeping her shitty years.

[KARLI]  It's gonna sit on the shelf with all my other shitty years.

[JAMIE]  Sometimes, I just look at them.

[KARLI]  So I can just go out there and look. And then just like wonder why, why do I keep this crap? Why?

[JAMIE]  It would be a good way to facilitate a visual representation of growth and change. Yeah, so you know, take that paradigm and shift it?

[KARLI]  Sure, we'll go with that.

[JAMIE]  You can be like, look how far I've come.

[KARLI]  Look how far I've come. I'm still a packrat after all these years. [both chuckle]

[JAMIE]  First off, we are both so very overwhelmingly grateful to all of the guests that agreed to and took time to come and talk with us. And let us record it for you, listeners.

[KARLI]  Absolutely.

[JAMIE]  If you have missed any of our guest featured episodes, we highly recommend you go back and listen to them. We spoke with a lot of great people with great insight.

[KARLI]  Yes, they were our best episodes, our guest episodes are so much fun to record, to put together, to execute, to actually get to chat with people. But it's so much fun seeing people's responses to them. And thank you guys, it's a lot of time and effort on our guests' part and very, very grateful.

[JAMIE]  Yes, it's a very generous thing to take any experiences that you have personally or that you have things that you have learned professionally, and then to share them with other people freely. Everybody we've spoken to, I mean, pretty much everybody I can think of in the community is very giving with their information in time.

[KARLI]  Yes.

[JAMIE]  And we're super grateful for that.

[KARLI]  And it's nerve wracking to be recorded.

[JAMIE]  It is.

[KARLI]  So I feel like it's like a next level thing. It's one thing to write down your thoughts and share them on like a website or something like that. But it's another entirely to have your voice recorded. And then know, it's going to be on the internet. So thank you guys, for being willing to put yourselves out there like that.

[JAMIE]  And I wanted to say thank you Karli for doing this with me. It has been a super fun season.

[KARLI]  Well, I wanted to say thank you too I—

[JAMIE]  I said it first.

[KARLI]  You did, you did.

[JAMIE]  She puts up with so much you guys. I'm just a real—I'm just relentless.

[KARLI]  I'm—I'm long suffering. I am indeed. You definitely don't have to put up with anything with me. I am a gem and a delight. [both chuckling] Obviously. [both laugh] No, seriously, though. Yeah. Serious. Thank you for working on this with me. It is a lot of time and effort that I didn't know it was going to be when we were going into it and even, even coming from season one to season two. I'm like, I knew. But it's it's a lot of time and effort to put all of this stuff together. But I'm so glad that we did it. And I had a lot of fun doing it. And all of the pain and suffering was just you know, it's worth it. Worth it.

[JAMIE]  A lot of things are worth it. In retrospect, when they're happening. Sometimes they don't feel very good.

[KARLI]  Right. But then after the fact you look back on it, you're like I did all that. Yeah!

[JAMIE]  To actually have something in like a creative medium that you work on produce, give to people and then walk away from has been very valuable to me. I think to you too.

[KARLI]  Absolutely.

[JAMIE]  Cause as writers, you know, you just spend years working on a book, looking at a thing. Like it's so nice to produce something, put it out, walk away, creatively and move on to the next thing.

[KARLI]  Yeah, it has been very valuable to me as well. I have learned a lot by doing that. And it has given me the courage to try things that I never would have given myself permission for before.

[JAMIE]  That's awesome. And then of course, the ultimate thank you to any listeners. Anybody who subscribed, wrote a review shared on social media told your friends, we thank you for that.

[KARLI]  Yeah. Thank you to those people who have donated to us on Ko-fi, we really appreciate that giving of yourself above and beyond to help us out.

[JAMIE]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  Very grateful for that as well.

[JAMIE]  So now that we have profusely, thanked and bored everybody.

[KARLI]  To tears.

[JAMIE]  Let's keep this reflection ball rolling and talk about the thing that we're supposed to be doing with our careers, lives. Writing.Writing and work.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[BOTH]  Hmmm. Hmmm.

[JAMIE]  How do you feel your progress for your work life has been this year?

[KARLI]  In a tangible way, my progress has been slower this year than a lot of years, I started a draft of a full length novel, have stalled out on it, and then picked it up again, and then stalled out again, and then picked it up again and stalled out again. And I have though, written a couple of short fiction pieces, I've started a novella. So I have begun some things and my creative juices have been there in spurts. But usually, I complete at least one draft of a novel per year-ish. And I have yet to do that. So I am really looking forward to NaNo in the hopes that I can bring something to a close by the end of the year.

[JAMIE]  I've read some of those short stories, it was a shift from you know, writing full length novels to doing something short form. What am I trying to say? [Karli chuckles] It's like, that was good.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  You were still accomplishing things throughout the year. It just came in different form than previous years.

[KARLI]  It was completely different than it has been. Yes. I have written short things in the past. But that I think, has been this year's larger accomplishment, finding a way to corral my brain into smaller stories and actually completing them. It was good for me just in a completely different way than it usually is. What about you?

[JAMIE]  I'm not sure I'm ever actually happy with the progress I make, or the pace of the progress. But it was especially labored this year. I'm still proud of what I did manage to do. And hopefully through November and December, I will come out with a fresh draft of a novel. And you know what, that may may not happen either. Like you said, sometimes you stall out. At the beginning of the year, my goal was a lot of editing to get through to 90-ish-K novels, as well as a 120k novel to review and edit.

[KARLI]  So lots of words to review and edit there.

[JAMIE]  And for some reason, my goal was to get through all three-ish? One needed to be prepped for CPs, which I accomplished.

[KARLI]  Yes, you did.

[JAMIE]  One needed to be drafted into its second phase, which kind of becomes what goes to my CPs. And then like, I had my epic space fantasy that needed to be reviewed and made consumable to even me. [Karli chuckles] Forget—CPs aside. I just have to be like, what?

[KARLI]  What did I write?

[JAMIE]  So I only finished one of those. But I finished that and—

[KARLI]  And?

[JAMIE]  Hopefully going to be drafting a whole book.

[KARLI]  And...

[JAMIE]  Oh, and I did write some short fiction.

[KARLI]  There you go.

[JAMIE]  To the point where I even have been submitting.

[KARLI]  Yes.

[JAMIE]  I did that thing.

[KARLI]  I'm glad that you wrote those those things. They live rent free in my brain now.

[JAMIE]  Oh, good. Good. really messed you up.

[KARLI]  Yeah, I like it. [both chuckle]

[JAMIE]  I mean, can you remember any year where you're like dang, I crushed it? I did more than I wanted to do?

[KARLI]  No.

[JAMIE]  Me neither. Me neither.

[KARLI]  But I think that that's more a problem with me being able to acknowledge my accomplishments than me actually accomplishing things. Like there have been years where I have crushed it. And I still felt like it wasn't enough. So that's, that's more of a personal problem [both chuckle] than it is like an actual work problem.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, there's like two forms of how to quantify progress. And one is to actually quantify it with data and the other is your mental outlook on your progress.

[KARLI]  Yes.

[JAMIE]  And these two things can be very different.

[KARLI]  Yeah, yeah. Obviously, I'm really bad at quantifying with data.

[JAMIE]  So we did some things this year. Good for us.

[KARLI]  Look, look at us go. Pat self on back.

[JAMIE]  Did a whole season of podcasting.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  That's—I mean, obviously we crushed there. [self-depricating chuckles]

[KARLI]  We joke, we joke, but seriously the amount of time we spend to put together what we're going to record and then sitting down and like trying to get our ideas to coalesce into something coherent to say to people. Sometimes it doesn't come out coherent, but we try this is us like corralling it. [both chuckling]

[JAMIE]

This is us trying.

[KARLI]  And that takes a lot of creative energy, which kind of goes back to why we're closing down at the beginning of November, so that we can really focus in and have freed up brain space for the other creative stuff. But we did do a whole creative thing for the majority of this year. And like, that's a lot too.

[JAMIE]  We've got that and it's out there, you can look at it and point at it and tell people about it, and say go there and listen to that. And that's what I did this year.

[KARLI]  Go listen to those weird girls talk about weird stuff.

[JAMIE]  Weird girls. [laughing] It'll be fun they said. So of course, we were able to do some reading this year. And I wanted to know what you enjoyed reading most this year. So far, we mean, when we went like a get a couple more in there through before but you know, just up till this point.

[KARLI]  It was a challenging year for me reading wise. Like usually I don't have a problem like getting books in as of this recording. I'm at 14 books read for the whole year. And my goal is usually 52 books a year, and I almost always hit it or exceed it. So that's like pretty low for you pretty low for me. I mean, and no judgment to anybody who reads that usually. It's just for me, it's abnormal. So my recommendations this year, I think no one is surprised. I'm going to recommend a Joe Abercrombie book, I'm going to recommend The Heroes. I like his stand-alones more than his series so far. But my favorite of them, it's hard for me to pick. It was really hard for me to pick but of the ones I read this year, The Heroes I think is my favorite.

[JAMIE]  If I'm gonna pick one up, I think I'll pick that one up. I don't want to get into a crazy series, but I'll, I'll give a standalone a shot. There's enough peer pressure [chuckles] about Joe Abercrombie that I'll try.

[KARLI]  That one, or Red Country would be the ones that I would pick for you to read.

[JAMIE]  All right, I'll look both up.

[KARLI]  Okay. What about you? How's it been going for you this year? In the reading category of things?

[JAMIE]  Pretty good. Volume wise, it's going good. But the first half of the year, I was just like, I was starting to get to a point where I'm like, am I gonna read any books I love this year? [Karli chuckles] Like, I have not read any five star books.

[KARLI]  You're looking for something that surprises you that you're like, I didn't know this was gonna be a five star. Oh my gosh, it's a five star.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, exactly. And then like finally, in August, September, I read like three back to back that I all loved. So.

[KARLI]  Yay.

[JAMIE]  My top pick is Mickey7 by Edward Ashton. It's a science fiction fantasy. And I'm not going to describe it. It's a science fiction fantasy called Mickey7. I try not to describe things too much because I—just just go—if you're, if that sounds like you've like science fiction, fantasy, and you know me enough to potentially be interested in the same things I'm interested in, go to Goodreads and make your own decision.

[KARLI]  Yeah, it's one of those that I feel like it's better to just go in blind. And I didn't read the whole thing, but I have read enough of it that I'm like, oh, yeah, this is just, just—

[JAMIE]  Just go in.

[KARLI]  Just go in for the ride.

[JAMIE]  Yeah. What else do you have that was good.

[KARLI]  So my next one is a completely different, like shift gears to—

[JAMIE]  Far, far, far from Joe Abercrombie.

[KARLI]  Far, far from Joe Abercrombie. Go to the land of cozy and feel good and super low stakes, but a satisfying story. And that's Legends & Lattes by Travis Baldree, and the cover art popped out to me because it looks like World of Warcraft and I was like, excuse me, what is this? It's like a retired warrior decides to go open a coffee shop. I genuinely enjoyed it. It's very casual, very cozy.

[JAMIE]  Neither of the two I have left to have any cozy vibe. [both laugh] My next pick is The Paradox Hotel by Rob Hart. Earlier in the year, I read The Warehouse and it was good. But Paradox Hotel dealt with more science fictiony aspects and strange wibbly wobbly things. So I really enjoyed that one as well.

[KARLI]  Nice. My last recommendation which it was really hard like, I have I have others that I wrote down but I'm like I really need to narrow this down. [Jamie laughs] Would be The Fifth Season by NK Jemisin. She's a brilliant writer.

[JAMIE]  I've heard nothing but good things about that in the series is called The Broken Earth series, correct?

[KARLI]  Yeah, it's dark fantasy. Like I don't want to say too much, because I don't want to give spoilery things, but it's just brilliant.

[JAMIE]  It's on my list. It's the ever present plight of the reader. There's too many books not enough time.

[KARLI]  True.

[JAMIE]  And so I get to what I get to when I get to it.

[KARLI]  True story.

[JAMIE]  I wish I could give all the books I'm interested in equal amounts of love.

[KARLI]  Right.

[JAMIE]  But I just have my favorites. [both laugh] Just like people in their children, but they won't admit it. [Karli chuckles] And my last one is, it's not the opposite of a cozy read. So it's not like super dark, but it will tear your heart out and step on it. But it's beautiful.

[KARLI]  I like to have my heart torn out and stepped on in a book.

[JAMIE]  Great. If you like Greek mythology, then you'll love the Song of Achilles.

[KARLI]  Great.

[JAMIE]  It's an older book, it came out in like 2013 or something. So it was been around for a long time, I only finally just got to it. See, see you get to a book when you get to a book. Her writing is just the right level of prose for for my liking.

[KARLI]  Nice.

[JAMIE]  And that's by Madeline Miller. And I don't think that's a spoiler because it's like there's a reason that there's a term Greek tragedy. It's like at least you know, going in, like, what other things besides books were influential and vital and giving you life this 2022?

[KARLI]  Well, no one's going to be shocked by this. But I spent a lot of my year gaming.

[JAMIE]  Do you like video games?

[KARLI]  I like video games.

[JAMIE]  Oh.

[KARLI]  So that's probably why I didn't get to as many books as well. I did do some like listening to audiobooks while I gained depending on the video game, you can do that. But some you can't. You're like, totally immersed in what you're doing. So I consumed stories in a video game sort of way. And I actually tried a few new games this year that I wanted to recommend if that's cool

[JAMIE]  Absolutely. Please share.

[KARLI]  So um, I have three recommendations for video games. I'll keep them short. One of them is just beautiful and moving and I cried during the intro. It's like a 2D platform game. But it's Ori and the Blind Forest. It's just really atmospheric, beautiful animation. And the story is beautiful. I haven't beat the game. But what I've played of it I really enjoyed. The next one is kind of random one. I didn't expect to like it so much. But it's Epistory. And it's actually a typing game. It's an atmospheric adventure 3D typing game you explore and do combat by typing words. And so the words get more complex and start coming faster that you have to type in order to defeat whatever enemy comes at you. This story is being told to you and unfolding. You are like an origami character with little paper and you ride like an origami fox. And it's like a book and the pages are unfolding as the story progresses. And as a writer, and a reader, I really, really appreciate the way that they animated it and how the story is delivered to you. It's very satisfying.

[JAMIE]  I'm glad you describe the origami part because until you got to that point I was like oh, my god what a nerd. [both laugh]

[KARLI]  The origami made it better?

[JAMIE]  I just love this typing. I'm like you were really into Mavis Beacon too, weren't you?

[KARLI]  I really was. [Jamie laughs] Don't judge me, okay?

[JAMIE]  No, but that sounds really neat.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  What was it called again?

[KARLI]  That is called Epistory. E P I S T O R Y. And that one's only like five bucks on Steam. I think. It's super cheap, but it's it's so worth the time. And then my last recommendation is Tiny Tina's Wonderlands. That one I think, other than World of Warcraft, I sunk most of my time into. If anybody's played any of the Borderlands games. It is Borderlands meets D&D. And it is off the wall, quirky, loads of fun, ridiculous humor, first person shooter role playing game. I don't really tend to like first person shooters and I had an absolute blast playing that game and I played it all the way through to the end. I rarely complete games, actually, to the end, roll credits. And I binged that game and it's so much fun and I want to go back to it.

[JAMIE]  Tiny Tina's Wonderland?

[KARLI]  Yes.  And that one is cross platform.

[JAMIE]  When I hear Tiny Tina's Wonderland, the first thing that comes to mind, if Polly Pocket and Diner Dash from the video game, it would be called Tiny Tina's Wonderlands. [both laugh]

[KARLI]  So Tiny Tina is a character that they put in like a side game in one of the old Borderlands. And I don't remember which one. But she was so popular that they made her own thing and she's the Dungeon Master and you are playing her game with her and it is such a good time.

[JAMIE]  Cool. Sounds cool.

[KARLI]  What about you? What non-book things have given you life this year?

[JAMIE]  The things that I turned to the most this year were mostly for comfort, which is the Conan O'Brien needs a friend podcast.

[KARLI]  That one is so fun.

[JAMIE]  I listened to the most religiously. I need the serotonin. I need the laughs. I need the disengaging of my brain to just listen to Conan and other actors. The Paul Rudd [Karli laughs] episode is so good.

[KARLI]  It's the shenanigans. It's just the silliest stuff that they talk about. But you're right. It's like this disengagement from your own brain and you can just listen to them be goofy and laugh and it's just so much fun.

[JAMIE]  So the Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend podcast, highly recommend. If you're not into Conan, you're not gonna like it. [both laugh]

[KARLI]  True. But if you're into Conan, yeah.

[JAMIE]  And then the other thing that I was super consistent on that always made me just put me in a better mood or where it's like, alright, I can disengage from whatever is going on personally, or I'm exhausted or whatever, is XO, MaCenna's YouTube channel. Back in 2020, she bought like 100 year old house in Texas, and has been redoing it from the ground up.

[KARLI]  Oh, dang.

[JAMIE]  And she does, like 90% of—she does it all. Like she has a contractor. And when it's something big, like pouring concrete or putting in like electrical—I mean, she even install some of her electrical like, anyway.

[KARLI]  That's awesome.

[JAMIE]  She is one of the most positive people like that I can stand to watch. Like, it doesn't feel disingenuous. It doesn't feel like it's to put on for like, of course, it's YouTube. But she doing all of her own renovations. She does all her own editing. And then if there's a project or she wants to accomplish something, she does the research and she learns how to do it. And so her positivity and her outlook make me feel like anything is possible. Like she's really good at being like you can learn how to do this.

[KARLI]  If I can do it, you can.

[JAMIE]  Very much.

[KARLI]  Cool.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, what else do you have that you were enjoying?

[KARLI]  I actually, randomly popped in my head a TikTok person that I want to share. I am not super into TikTok but occasionally I will fall down a rabbit hole with it. There is one person in particular that the mechanic and I watch B Dylan Hollis, religiously. He does recipes and almost exclusively old recipes. Any old cookbook he'll find and he will read the name of the food that he is going to make and he tries super weird stuff like Velveeta fudge [Jamie makes disgusted noise] and ice cream coleslaw and just super random stuff. And then he is hilarious. He makes the thing and then he'll try whatever he made and then sometimes it's delicious and sometimes it's disgusting, but he is consistently hilarious. Like, like you said, just that disengagement of your brain and just enjoying somebody being goofy and off the wall and creative, so satisfying. And then the other one that I'm really enjoying, videos wise is are like a bunch of skits that are like Millennial and Gen Z. He is super, super funny. It's B Mo the Prince. He's on Instagram and Tiktok, I think but I usually just watch him on Instagram. Really funny skits.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, he's really good.

[KARLI]  I was gonna ask if there were any shows or whatever, like newer things, or—this year that you wanted to talk about that you were enjoying, even if you hadn't finished them yet.

[JAMIE]  I guess if we're talking about things that haven't finished yet.

[KARLI]  Because I know we usually tend to like wait to pass judgment until we finished things but...

[JAMIE]  Yeah, I haven't finished this yet. But nothing—I'm like I don't want to say blows my skirt up. I kind of did want to say blows my skirt up.

[KARLI]  Do it, say it. [dramatic whisper] Say it, say it.

[JAMIE]  Nothing has blown my skirt up like the Rings of Power. [Karli chuckles] Give me more. [Karli laughs] Yeah, so far, the year of watching has been underwhelming for me. There were things that I enjoyed but nothing I'm ready to rave about except for the Rings of Power.

[KARLI]  Yeah, I have enjoyed it so far. Are as well I am behind. I'm gonna bring it up again, because I feel like I opened the season by talking about it. So I'd like to close the season by talking about it and maybe point out that Jamie still hasn't watched it yet. And that would be Arcane. It's on Netflix, you guys should go watch it.

[JAMIE]  So since we brought this up—

[KARLI]  No, we're not discussing all the things that I haven't watched that you've recommended to me.

[JAMIE]  No, no, no.

[KARLI]  I thought that you were gonna say, well, you still haven't watched Avatar. [laughing]

[JAMIE]  I was thinking about this the other day—yeah, you haven't watched Avatar! [both laugh]

[KARLI]  I thought for sure that's what you were gonna say. [laughs]

[JAMIE]  No, because I haven't watched Arcane. I just think it's ironic, because I remember you specifically being like, I love the animation. And I turned it on. And I was like, I... [Karli gasps dramatically] I don't enjoy this animation. [laughs]

[KARLI]  End recording now. We're done. This is it.

[JAMIE]  Anyway, okay. So yeah, you opened on Arcane.

[KARLI]  And I'd like to close on Arcane. It's great. Go watch it. Don't listen to Jamie, she doesn't know.

[JAMIE]  I didn't say not to watch it. [both laugh]

[KARLI]  Is there anything else for you that you'd like to share with the class?

[JAMIE]  I have one left. And that is my writing group and my writing community.

[KARLI]  [gasps] Now I feel bad that I didn't bring them up.

[JAMIE]  Ohhh. Hang you out to dry. She hates you. [Karli laughs] No. This, having a community that when I am not feeling creative, or I'm busy, I can just disappear from and then come back and always be welcomed and feel supported or encouraged. That is incredibly valuable. And I'm just very, very grateful and very grateful to be part of the sort of community that has these types of people.

[KARLI]  Agreed.

[JAMIE]  So if you are looking for people, it's NaNo. Great time to find people.

[KARLI]  Yep. I agree with that. And I joked that I wasn't going to bring them up. But I actually in my reflections for the next section of our stuff was going to bring them up.

[JAMIE]  Speaking of the next thing, the big tough question, I because I get it, I always got to give Karli a question. It's gonna make her a little uncomfortable. [Karli laughs] And that is how do you feel that you have changed or grown creatively, this year, from January to now?

[KARLI]  Sometimes we don't grow in a forward motion, or seemingly in a forward motion. And it's not that we're regressing. It's just that it's a... lateral? Change, maybe. I think we we like to quantify growth and talk about you know, like, moving up a ladder or a staircase or I've, you know, I've improved distinctly. I—it's leaning more towards the change than the, you know, quote, unquote, growth. Doesn't mean that change isn't growth. Often it is even when we can't see it. It's been a lot of learning grace in realizing that it's good to keep moving forward, even if you don't really understand the past, or the present, even. Projects, obviously, definitely not talking about life. So a lot of my observations for myself this year are just learning how to adapt and keep moving forward. Even if I am not making progress in a way that feels quantifiable. My growth and improvement look far different this year than past years. And I'm still learning how to be gracious with myself about that.

[JAMIE]  But that's also just an important part of the journey.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  And I feel like if, since we're using the word growth, I think of like a plant, you know, and we think of growth as like a new leaf. But sometimes your roots are going deeper. Yeah, sometimes there's growth, you don't see people on the outside, don't see. And maybe you don't even realize, but maybe my roots needed to be more solid. [chuckles]

[KARLI]  Which I think goes into the community thing, your roots getting deeper. That's kind of where I feel like I'm at right now. And that is really tapping into the community that I have, reaching out to them for support, and sometimes even just being present to celebrate the things that they're doing. Sometimes there's not as much going on for you, but it's so great to be able to be present for and participate in what other people have going on. And there is so much to be said for that.

[JAMIE]  I agree.

[KARLI]  How about you? How do you feel like your change or your growth this year? How would you like to discuss that? [Jamie chuckles]

[JAMIE]  Thank you. That was a great way to ask.

[KARLI]  [laughing] Was it?

[JAMIE]  So I'm not sure if this is a good thing or bad thing. But I think that I've become even less attached to the idea of quote unquote, making it as a writer. I am much more open minded about the various pathways that could get me my creative fulfillment in ways I might find that I'm still pursuing being an author. I'm much more interested in short fiction than I was, like we had mentioned, I did write some, did submit some, that felt good. I had never submitted short fiction before.

[KARLI]  That was a new thing for you this year, which is huge.

[JAMIE]  And anytime you're putting yourself out there in that way, that I feel like, I feel like that can count for growth for everybody.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  Because that's not easy to do. So I guess the big thing from like January to now because I went back and tried to look at like, what was I trying to do? What am I trying to accomplish? And the big thing was in January, I'm like, you need to figure out what you're doing. Like your path, like, how are you going to pursue this? And a year later, I don't know. So I'm going to just do the everyday things and see what happens.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  Just follow opportunities. Because I kept on waiting for some answer to like reveal itself. I think I said that in our first episode of the season. Eight months later, still no answers. [Karli chuckles] And that's okay. That's fine.

[KARLI]  Sometimes it's just like that, though. For me, learning that answers sometimes aren't going to be black and white. They're not going to be all up in my face. Again, that whole it's okay to keep moving forward even if you don't have the answer or the clarity. I used to wait for clarity before I moved forward. And I still struggle with moving forward when I don't have clarity. Sometimes you just have to do a thing. And find out after if it was the right thing for you.

[JAMIE]  So our final advice before we sign off season two, what do you got Karli?

[KARLI]  Community. Find people. I know it's hard. I know it's scary. I know it's overwhelming. I know sometimes you find people that you think are your people, and then they turn out not to be your people. So then it's hard to trust new people. I totally get that. Been there done that. Bought the shirt and the shot glass [Jamie chuckles] and the other knickknacks. But it's so important. At some point, you will actually find the people that are your people. And when that community clicks for you, there is absolutely nothing like it. Having people who not only understand you, but can relate to you in your creative endeavors and struggles, the highs and the lows, and everything in between. The mundane little tidbits. It's enormous. And it's well worth the effort to find those people.

[JAMIE]  Absolutely. I was also going to—

[KARLI]  Was that your advice too? [chuckles]

[JAMIE]  Find community. My few bits of advice. Are these.

[KARLI]  Okay.

[JAMIE]  Pay attention to your time management and priorities. Don't let social media steal your dreams by taking all of your time and energy. That seems obvious, but I waste so many hours scrolling. And I don't even feel like I do it that much. Just be aware of that aspect of how much time that can easily slip through your fingers.

[KARLI]  I saw a thing on Instagram making a joke about how we watched Lord of the Rings. And we're like I wouldn't let the ring control me. And here we are spending hours and hours and hours a day on our phone and I was like oh my god. So—

[JAMIE]  Just put it down.

[KARLI]  Put it down.

[JAMIE]  I guess this maybe isn't advice. This is just me telling people. If it is taking you years to do something, you are probably still learning a lot during this process.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  We're so used to instant gratification if something takes too long, especially when it takes years. It starts to feel futile. It is not you are learning.

[KARLI]  Oh, I needed to hear that. [Jamie laughs] Thanks.

[JAMIE]  I'm so glad I could do that. This will be my last one because my last one was originally find community, but Karli already said that. So I won't repeat that. [both chuckle] The last thing I want to say is it's okay to change your mind about your path. Sometimes, outside forces, change it for you. And it's—It's one sentence.

[KARLI]  You can do it!

[JAMIE]  I don't know if I can. [both laugh] Shit.

[KARLI]  How dare you have emotions?

[JAMIE]  How dare I have a feeling publicly? [Karli laughs] Get her out of here. She obviously has female hysteria. [both laugh]

[KARLI]  I was gonna say clearly your model is malfunctioning and you need maintenance.

[JAMIE]  I need to be well lubricated. [Karli chokes on her drink] Alright, it's okay. If it takes you time to process that. And you can come out the other side. Not everything needs a timer on it.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  Sometimes you just gotta keep living through it until you're like, oh, that's done. Cool. Once you decide, oh, well, this is what I want to do with my writing. It's okay, if that changes.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  And grows over time, as things present themselves. So keep that in mind. [chuckles]

[KARLI]  I needed to hear that too.

[JAMIE]  I hope that it came across because I barely said anything. [laughs]

[KARLI]  It did. Yeah, a lot of times we or at least—I'll just speak for myself. I set out on this path with a very specific goal. This is what I want. This is what I want out of being a creative. This is what I want out of being a writer. One, like, it looks vastly different than I ever thought it would. So how could I have predicted? And I couldn't possibly have known that I would change my—

[JAMIE]  Well, we don't know what we don't know.

[KARLI]  Exactly. It's okay to adapt. It's okay to change your mind. It's okay to take a step back and re-evaluate and process. So, loved it. My last thing is kind of in that vein, taking a step back and processing. It's okay to have creative seasons, people who create one or two times a year are just as much a creative as people who create every day of the year.

[JAMIE]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  Whatever works for you is what works for you. You know, don't use it as an excuse to not push yourself to do more and to do things that are good for you. And that are pushing your creativity forward in whatever way that aligns with your goals. Don't allow that to give you an excuse to not do things. Raising both hands here. [both chuckle] It's okay to understand that there are certain seasons of your life where you're just going to create less than others. I get very dramatic. And I'm like, I'm never going to create again, every time I get into creative drought, which is dumb because I get out of the creative drought and then suddenly I create again, and it happens every time. But in the middle of it, it does feel like you're never going to create again. But that's not true. That's a lie. Don't believe it.

[JAMIE]  Thank you for doing a year in review with me.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  And thank you for doing season two.

[KARLI]  Thank you.

[JAMIE]  We would like to say thank you again to our listeners for probably the third time. You can find all our episodes on Spotify and Apple podcast, or on our website. That's also where our transcripts are available and our newsletter sign up. Link in the description. Our newsletter is probably the best way to get news when there is news so be sure to sign up. [both chuckle]

[KARLI]  Yes, we like to do that surprise attack news thing where we're like—

[JAMIE]  News, huh!

[KARLI]  It's quiet for a long time and they're we're like hah! news!

[JAMIE]  We make it seem like our newsletter is mysterious and by design not because we're too lazy to put out on regular newsletter.

[KARLI]  It's mysterious. Woo.

[JAMIE]  Ooo. Spooky. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI]  Halloween’s over. It's not spooky.

[JAMIE]  Oh, sorry.

[KARLI]  You can find me on Instagram @karliwritesthings and at my website kcashwriter, where I occasionally share updates and flash fiction.

[JAMIE]  You can find me on Twitter and Instagram @scifiohmy and through my website scifiohmy.com or jamieredact.com. Either way, that'll get you there and sign up for my newsletter which comes out only slightly more often than this podcast newsletter. [both laugh] We hope you all have a happy and productive fall slash winter season or spring if you are on the southern hemisphere. Thank you for a wonderful season two at The Act Break.

[KARLI]  Thank you, guys. See around the internet, internet friends.

[JAMIE]  Bye.

Guess the 1 Star Reviews - Transcript

[JAMIE]  One of our guests is like very committed to, what did he say, destroying?

[KARLI]  Oh, yeah. Yeah, what did he say?

[JAMIE]  The competitive spirit is alive in this one. [laughs]

[KARLI]  Oh, yeah, sure is. Let's see. He said, I will destroy all my opponents.

[JAMIE]  Wow.

[KARLI]  And then I said that there may or may not be points; and he said he'll be keeping score regardless. [both chuckle] He has already given himself a point before even showing up today. [laughs]

[JAMIE]  It reminds me of Whose Line Is It Anyway, welcome to The Act Break Podcast, where everything's made up and the points don't matter. [both laugh] I'm not nearly as confident as one of our guests. If it was like, movie trivia, that would be one thing. But who knows what we're about to face. I don't know what Karli's got up her sleeve.

[KARLI]  I like it.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE]  Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI]  Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE]  Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI]  Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE]  A couple of weeks ago, I should have requested like—I would have loved to see what you did with a whole game show character. Like, like really play it up.

[KARLI]  I don't know that I could stay in character that long, to be honest. [chuckles]

[JAMIE]  I know. I would just I would settle for just an intro.

[KARLI]  [game show host imitation] Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to today's game show. I'm Karli, your host. [Jamie laughs] Was that good for you? [Jamie claps]

[JAMIE]  I love it. I want it all the time now.

[KARLI]  I can't, I can't. If I give it to you all the time, then you'll just get used to it and then it won't be special anymore. Got to really make you wait for it.

[JAMIE]  I feel like everybody should really cultivate their game show host persona. You know, that way it's just in the back pocket because—

[KARLI]  Everyone should have that? Yeah, oh okay. You never know. I mean clearly I need it today.

[JAMIE]  Everyone. Yeah.

[KARLI]  You never know when you're gonna need it. Our first victim—I mean contestant—has arrived.

[A.P.]  Came here to win.

[KARLI]  [chuckles] We know. [Jamie chuckles] Yay!

[A.P.]  Oh my god.

[KATE]  Hi.

[KARLI]  Beautiful face and everything.

[A.P.]  It's a face. [Kate laughs]

[KARLI]  I feel privileged.

[JAMIE]  This has been the long con.

[KATE]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  She's been not showing her face that way when she finally does everybody just is like [gasps]. Oh my god, look at her.

[KARLI]  Explodes in excitement.

[KATE]  Ew.

[KARLI]  [laughs] She's like I have to go now. [A.P. laughs]

[KATE]  Stop looking at me.

[JAMIE]  I'm gonna look at you the whole time. [all laughing]

[KATE]  No more camera.

[KARLI]  Take it all back.

[JAMIE]  Instantly make our guests uncomfortable. Mmm.

[A.P.]  Isn't that the point?

[JAMIE AND KARLI]  Yeah.

[KATE]  He's already told me he's gonna beat me.

[A.P.]  Let's focus on the winged eyeliner that she did for us.

[JAMIE]  Pretty impressive.

[KATE]  It did do it for you.

[KARLI]  I love it. I love it. I thought about you and I was attempting mine and I was like it's not going to be as good as Kate's.

[KATE]  Thank you.

[JAMIE]  I put a little concealer on this pimple.

[KARLI]  Oh yeah, nice.

[KATE]  Looks good, I noticed it.

[KARLI]  We all, we all made an effort today. Look at us go. [A.P. laughs]

[KATE]  A.P. even got a haircut.

[A.P.]  Just for this.

[JAMIE]  Oh it's fancy.

[KARLI]  Obviously.

[A.P.]  Of course. Why are we here?

[JAMIE]  Is this recording?

[KARLI]  All right. Welcome back to The Act Break, where my co host works tirelessly to carefully curate my chaos. And today I thought her efforts. I am Karli, [laughing] today's game show host.

[JAMIE]  I'm so confused by what's happening already. [A.P. and Karli laugh] And I'm the co-host, Jamie, who works tirelessly to [laughing] curate Karli's chaos. I couldn't say a different, it was perfect.

[KARLI]  Thank you. Today we are joined by chaotic internet friends A.P. Thayer and Lily Hammer, a.k.a.. Kate Howley, our game show victims, and I'm so excited that you guys are here. Thank you.

[JAMIE]  That's the second time she's just the word victims already and now I'm like what was the premise of this game? [A.P. and Karli laugh]

[KARLI]  It's the Squid Games, I just didn't tell you guys, sorry.

[A.P.]  No, you two are stuck in here with us.

[KARLI]  Forever.

[KATE]  We're all victims here.

[KARLI]  [laughing] I don't know I'm already enjoying myself immensely. I don't feel victimized.

[JAMIE]  Because you are the perpetrator. [laughs]

[A.P.]  I think they call it Stockholm. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI]  Okay, so today's game is Guess This One Star Review. I cannot take credit for coming up with the idea. I found this idea in various places on the internet. As well as finding the reviews on the Internet. Disclaimer: Please don't hunt down these reviewers and troll them. Thank you. The rules are as follows. I will read a review to you guys. I'm going to remove any major identifiers. If there's a character name I will change it to protagonist or whatever fits, that way it keeps it as vague as it can be. And then you guys will have an opportunity to guess what book that is reviewing. And obviously these are one star reviews. So the people did not like these books.

[A.P.]  It didn't dawn on me that this was gonna be book reviews till right now. It's like, oh, yeah, I guess that makes sense.

[KATE]  What did you think it would be?

[A.P.]  I don't know, Yelp reviews for like Spokane or something. I don't know. [all laughing]

[KARLI]  We could do that another time. I have tried very hard to find books that we are all, at least moderately familiar with. There might be a few here and there that one of you hasn't read. But it was difficult to make sure that I felt like all of you had read it. And I also had a very difficult time not going down a rabbit hole and picking out the most obscure books that each of you have read and finding one star reviews on those. That might be a future game. You will get a point for each correct answer. Zero if you're incorrect. The winner gets our temporary respect and a cookie.

[A.P.]  Ooo.

[JAMIE]  It's incredibly temporary.

[KARLI]  Or you know, maybe a book. And it might be a book of my choosing. And you might hate it, but somebody will win.

[JAMIE]  But it will be a book.

[KARLI]  Or a cookie.

[JAMIE]  Or a book on cookies. [all chuckle]

[KARLI]  Jamie, what are your questions?

[JAMIE]  Are you asking us each individually? Are you reading the thing and then we're raising our hand?

[A.P.]  Do we buzz in?

[KARLI]  Whoever raises their hand first gets to guess first.

[JAMIE]  How many guesses do we each get?

[KARLI]  One guess. Unless everybody guesses wrong. Then I will maybe give you guys a clue. If you guys all guessed wrong again, then zero points.

[JAMIE]  [laughing] And... [all laugh]

[A.P.]  I was waiting for that.

[KARLI]  Oh, I was waiting.

[JAMIE]  Do these fall into specific genres? Or will you be giving us like categories of any sort at all?

[KARLI]  No.

[JAMIE]  Are they like within the last ten years, within—

[KARLI]  A smattering all across genre and time and—

[JAMIE]  Space, got it.

[KARLI]  If I need to clarify to help you guys get closer to an answer, I will. But we shall see. If I'm reading this and I can't look at you, you guys are gonna have to be on the honor system and call each other out about—

[A.P.]  Oh, yeah, totally.

[KARLI]  Who—[laughs]

[KATE]  Yeah, okay.

[KARLI]  Okay. [A.P. laughs] Kate and Jamie, please—

[KATE]  Do you think he'll be honest?

[KARLI]  About who answered first. [Kate laughs]

[A.P.]  These are all like published books?

[KARLI]  These are all published books.

[JAMIE]  Even though we don't give the video out, the video does exist so we could check who raised their hands.

[KARLI]  [laughs] We can go back.

[KATE]  This is true.

[JAMIE]  Keep that in mind.

[KARLI]  We'll know if you cheated and you will lose what temporary respect you had been given. If you won by cheating.

[A.P.]  Can't lose something you never had.

[JAMIE]  Can go into the negative. [A.P. laughs]

[KARLI]  [laughing] I was thinking about assigning negative points, but I decided to keep it less complicated.

[KATE]  That would be funny, though.

[KARLI]  I mean, if you get caught cheating, I might give you negative points.

[JAMIE]  The power has gone straight to her head. [A.P. laughs]

[KARLI]  Are we ready folks?

[KATE]  I'm oddly nervous. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI]  I'm excited. Your nerves give me life. [all laugh] All right. Are we ready?

[KARLI]  Yes.

[KATE AND JAMIE]  Yes.

[KARLI]  First book. At first I did like the book, then it just started to suck right around the time when the protagonist was getting sexually involved with his girlfriend. I hated the book so much that I forgot her name. The first 100 or so pages I liked then it just got really boring. So I highly recommend that you—in all caps—Do not read this book. And please for the love of God. Don't read that Brave New World by Hoxley. It is twice as worse as this book. To put it bluntly don't read any of this author. Just wasting your time.

[JAMIE]  A.P. raised his hang first, but I was right behind him!

[KATE]  Right behind.

[JAMIE]  1984?

[KARLI]  Correct. Is that what you were gonna guess, Jamie?

[JAMIE]  Yeah. [pretending to be a poor sport] Good job, A.P.. Ehhh. [A.P. mimicks Jamie] [all chuckling] Once it says don't read Brave New World, you're like 1984. That's make sense.

[KATE]  Nice..

[KARLI]  [laughs] I had a feeling that you guys didn't get that one. I decided to start out fairly easy.

[A.P.]  Do we just buzz in at any time? Or do we have to wait for you to finish?

[KARLI]  I'm probably going to finish reading the review. But yeah, you as soon as you know you can raise your hand.

[JAMIE]  Jeopardy rules.

[KARLI]  Yeah. All right. Ugh, just because it was written yonks ago by a depressed girl living on the Yorkshire Moors does not mean that it is good. What makes a classic book? the quality of the writing or the passage of time? I would rather slowly bite poke my eyes out with my Kindle than to read this again or to read anything else by any of this author's family's books. Who got it first?

[JAMIE]  Oh A.P. was like way before me. I was raising my hand as a backup in case he doesn't—

[KARLI]  A.P.?

[A.P.]  Pride and Prejudice.

[KARLI]  No.

[A.P.]  I know the family and I don't want to say it.

[JAMIE]  I was gonna say Little Women, but I think it's [frustrated noise] let's see, what do you want to guess Kate? And then we'll go around again.

[KATE]  I have absolutely no idea.

[KARLI]  A.P. is warm.

[A.P.]  Bronte sister book.

[KARLI]  Yes.

[A.P.]  I agree with this one star review actually. [Karli laughs]

[JAMIE]  The heights one.

[A.P.]  Yes!

[JAMIE]  What the heck is it called?

[A.P.]  Wuthering Heights.

[JAMIE]  Withering Heights. That's the one.

[KARLI]  No.

[A.P.]  Damnit!

[JAMIE]  What? [all laughing]

[KARLI]  I mean, it could apply. It's kind of hard because there really wasn't a specific thing pertaining to this story. But it was for Jane Eyre.

[KATE]  Oh my god, I was gonna say that but I was embarrassed.

[KARLI]  Oh!

[KATE]  I have no idea what's going—like I don't—[all laughing] I'm off to a horrible start and I was gonna say that.

[KARLI]  It's all right. Now that a light a fire under you, just say it even if it sounds ridiculous, you're probably not wrong.

[KATE]  All right.

[JAMIE]  So that was no point.

[KARLI]  That was no point. Nobody got a point for that one.

[JAMIE]  Which is horrible, because that means A.P. is still in the lead.

[KARLI]  Correct.

[A.P.]  Get used to that.

[KARLI]  All right. Even Boy Scouts who are supposed to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent, are more morally and intellectually complex than this entire society where you're allowed one defining trait, one primary virtue, and that's it. Jamie?

[JAMIE]  Divergent. Veronica Roth.

[KARLI]  Correct. I mean, it keeps going for quite a while they talk about nasty sociopaths would be more comfortable in Mad Max. It's great. [all chuckling] That's a good. That's a really good one.

[JAMIE]  So you didn't actually get all the way through it?

[KARLI]  No, but I that—I made a note to stop there because it's long. [A.P. and Jamie laugh] But I had to put it on the page because I wanted to remember to bring up the Mad Max thing. The tail end of that review. They're like talking about the trains. There's like a whole paragraph on the trains and... [laughs] trains that hurtle along continuously without even slowing down at stations so that only the reckless thrill seekers among society attempt to jump on or off them. And there are no tickets or fares required. Seriously, what sort of society has the money to provide free public transportation that runs continuously, regardless of who uses it and can be used by only 1/5 of the society and collects no revenues? Do the engineers or drivers jump on and off too? [all chuckling] Was it all auto—or is it all automated? If it's all automated, do the trains stop when another malfunctions? Do they just allow them to crash? Trains do break down and just require servicing after all. [laughing] And that's the end of the review.

[KATE]  That's some hill to die on.

[A.P.]  [laughing] Yeah.

[JAMIE]  I read that book a very long time ago, but I feel like the person writing that review must have misunderstood something. [laughs]

[KARLI]  I mean, they do talk about the trains and they're really not explained I think until in a future book. I just think that they didn't get that far. [laughs] But yeah, that is quite a hill to die on.

[JAMIE]  I would have loved this book, but their transit system just didn't make sense. [all laugh]

[KARLI]  I'm gonna have to apologize for how often I'm gonna cuss in here because there's a lot of cuss words in some of these.

[A.P.]  Ooo my.

[KATE]  Oh, spicy.

[KARLI]  This next one. Co-dependent tree needs to get some f*@%ing boundaries. [laughing] A.P.?

[A.P.]  The Giving Tree?

[KARLI]  Yes.

[A.P.]  Yeah! The hell is that title? [Jamie laughs]

[KARLI]  They're not wrong.

[A.P.]  Kind of harsh, though. I mean, the tree. I mean, it's sad-ass story.

[JAMIE]  It's not an inaccurate, review.

[A.P.]  [laughing] Yeah.

[KARLI]  It's not inaccurate. [laughing]

[JAMIE]  As far as a commentary on the books content.

[KARLI]  The tree was co-dependent.

[KATE]  I've read none of these books so far. Except 1984.

[KARLI]  Oh no!

[KATE]  Which was like 20 years ago.

[KARLI]  There is more that—I even went through some of your guys's list to make sure that I had several that each of you would read. Okay. I can't help it. I need a plot and something I can hold on to. It slipped through my fingers into the 43rd vestibule to the right of a statute covered in seaweed. Lol. Jamie.

[JAMIE]  Piranesi.

[KARLI]  Yes.

[JAMIE]  Who is that by? Uh, Suzanne?

[KARLI]  Susanna Clarke.

[JAMIE]  A book that is widely loved.

[KARLI]  Yes.

[A.P.]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  There's more. There's somebody thought—halls, vestibules, statues, albatross, halls, vestibules, statues, albatross. [A.P. and Jamie laugh] Okay. Weird plotless story whose main character has no life but to be the gateway to that of others. Everyone cheats on everyone. And in the end, nobody ends up happy and the audience doesn't even end up with a moral to hold onto and justify their waste of time and money they just spent.

[KATE]  Can I ask for what year it came out?

[KARLI]  Oh, god, I didn't write that down. [A.P. chuckles] But oh, I can—no, no, I'll look it up real quick.

[A.P.]  Uh. Yeah, it made me think of what the movies called, Closer? With Jude Law and Natalie Portman and...

[KARLI]  It came out in 1925.

[JAMIE]  Oh. Then I would guess that it would be A Stranger in a Strange Land.

[KARLI]  No.

[JAMIE]  Actually have no idea what year A Stranger in a Strange Land came out.

[A.P.]  Great Gatsby?

[KARLI]  Yes, A.P..

[A.P.]  Okay.

[JAMIE]  Nice work.

[KARLI]  Yeah, that one was a little harder.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, it was a little. What did it say? It said the protagonist is a gateway.

[A.P.]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, I was like, oh, what does that mean? It makes sense. Now that I know what book it is.

[KARLI]  Could mean a few different things.

[JAMIE]  Who's winning? Are me and A.P. tied now?

[KARLI]  No. [A.P. laughs] A.P. is winning.

[JAMIE]  How?

[KARLI]  One point. One point.

[A.P.]  [laughing] How? Because of math.

[JAMIE]   I don't know how numbers work.

[KARLI]  He has answered more correct questions than you.

[JAMIE]  I don't like it.

[A.P.] I can't tell if we're just subdued or focused.

[JAMIE]  We've never been more focused.

[KARLI]  I mean, seriously. You guys are starting to freak me out, honestly. Okay. Me: no one could ever make a story about two genetically engineered super soldiers fighting a time travel war boring. Author one and author two: hold our pretentious beverage. Kate.

[KATE]  This is How you Lose the Time War.

[KARLI]   Correct.

[KARLI]  By Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone. And for the record, I love that book. [laughs]

[KATE]  I take issue with this reviewer.

[KARLI]  There is another one that I that I put it in here that I'd like to share. This book made me feel really dumb. I don't think it was the book's fault. The combination of high science fiction with poetic literary fiction just didn't click together in my brain. There was never a point in this book where I knew what was going on. I just finished it and I have no idea what happened in it. [all laughing]

[A.P.]  I mean, honestly, that's fair. That's, that's fine.

[JAMIE]  That's fair.

[KARLI] I mean, it is very poetic.

[KATE]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  I love that book.

[KATE]  Me too.

[A.P.]  Yeah, it's great.

[JAMIE]  But I get what that person is talking about. [laughing]

[KARLI]  It's not an easy read.

[A.P.]  Yeah. That first review, though.

[KARLI]  Let's see, what are we doing next? I cannot properly express how painful or read this was for me. I should have known from the struggle I had just to make it through the first few chapters. If you asked me what happened in this novel, my answer would be something like a bunch of unlikable and or boring characters get introduced. There's a lot of swearing and gratuitous violence. Other than that, I have zero clue as to what the whole point was. There seems to be no plot at all just a bunch of terrible, horrible characters running around doing horrible douchey things.

[KATE]  I mean, A.P. has it. I know he has it.

[A.P.]  Is it The Blade Itself?

[KARLI]  Yeah. Yeah, I can keep going on this review. I'm going to after reading and I'll tell you the character because you guys don't need to guess anymore. After reading Glokta's intro, I was convinced the characters were actually lizards. So much focus on him licking his teeth and gums, [A.P. laughs] and the fact that he's a cripple, but no other kind of descriptions to convince me [laughing] he wasn't a Lizard Man. [assorted chuckling] Honestly, this would have been a much more interesting read if it had been about humanoid lizards.

[KATE]  I mean, they're not wrong. And this is why it took me three tries to finish that book.

[A.P.]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  If it was about humanoid lizards, I might have picked it up by now. [all laugh]

[A.P.]  Just pretend they are.

[JAMIE]  It probably makes no difference the story really.

[KARLI]  Glokta specifically. Yeah, no, I agree. It took me a minute to get into that one. And now obviously, like we're all obsessed, and...

[JAMIE]  I'll probably cut this out but when you were reading it, I was like, I don't know if something by Jay Kristoff?

[A.P.]  Don't cut it out.

[JAMIE]  You trying to tell me I'm allowed to have opinions? I don't know.

[A.P.]  Yeah, this episode was all about you airing your book laundry out. [A.P. and Jamie laugh]

[JAMIE]  I just want to insult a whole bunch of beloved things. That's my favorite pastime. [A.P. chuckles]

[KARLI]  Okay. If crap had an asshole, this would be shooting out of it. [assorted chuckles] This novel if a bunch of childish repetition words comprise a novel, is the biggest load of crap I've come across since visiting a dairy farm in Wisconsin when I was seven. My tabby cat could write better sex scenes than this woman. For all of you who think this book is precious and well written. I'm scared, very scared for you. It's a sad day when so many women appear to get hot over this book. Time to readjust the thermostat ladies. Yes, Jamie.

[KARLI]  ACoTaR.

[KARLI]  No.

[JAMIE]  What?! How dare you? [all laugh]

[A.P.]  That was gonna be my guess too.

[KARLI]  Okay.

[JAMIE]  My second guess is Outlander.

[KARLI]  No. Yes, Kate.

[KATE]  Shadow and Bone?

[KARLI]  No. It is definitely in the erotica genre.

[JAMIE]  Then it would be 50 shades?

[KARLI]  Yes.

[KATE]  Oh, okay. There's so many authors and books that I feel that way about. [A.P. laughs]

[KARLI]  Yeah. There's a, there's a lot of books that that could, that could fall into.

[JAMIE]  Do I get a point for that? If it was my third guess. [laughs]

[KARLI]  Oh, it was your third guess? No, you don't get a point for that.

[A.P.]  Ooo.

[JAMIE]  I don't know why I said that. I'm gonna cut out the whole part where I pointed it out and the part where says I can't have it. [all laugh]

[KARLI]  And then she finds all the words to splice together to say "Jamie wins" at the end.

[JAMIE]  I can make you say whatever I want.

[KARLI]  [chuckles] Yeah.

[A.P.]  Wait, what's the score now?

[JAMIE]  I have a billion points. And you live in a dirt hole now and are destitute.

[KATE]  Wow.

[A.P.]  But I still have more points. [laughs]

[KARLI]  A.P. did say he was going to come in competitive and it's it's really brought it out in Jamie.

[JAMIE]  I just trying to meet his energy.

[A.P.]  Did this for you.

[KARLI]  The energy of destruction that he claimed earlier? Yeah. Okay. A.P. has four points. Jamie has two points. Kate has one.

[A.P.]  Nice.

[JAMIE]  I would like my 50 Shades of Grey point back please. [A.P. laughs]

[KARLI]  Nah.

[JAMIE]  But I got it and nobody else got it. Can I have half a point? [Kate laughs]

[KARLI]  No.

[JAMIE]  Point five.

[KARLI]  No. [Kate and A.P. laugh] I'm in charge here.

[JAMIE]  I guess I should have been more specific in my questions portion.

[KATE]  Well, then I want a quarter of a point because I thought the answer to Jane Eyre. [all laugh]

[A.P.]  Yeah, like what are we doing here?

[KARLI]  Yeah, I don't think so.

[JAMIE]  We must abide by these rules that we're making up as we go along.

[KARLI]  All right. It was when the thief and the mage pulled out a whiteboard and started drawing a flowchart of how to conquer the fantasy kingdom that I realized, wait, I'm just reading some sad bastard's D&D campaign. I am not sure what purpose fiction serves, but I am positive this is not it.

[JAMIE]  Kate.

[KATE]  This has to be Brandon Sanderson. Is it Mistborn?

[KARLI]  Yes.

[JAMIE]  Good job. I had no idea what that was. And I read that book.

[JAMIE]  And loved it.

[A.P.]  Yeah, same.

[JAMIE]  Good call. [chuckles]

[KARLI]  I did too. And I cracked up about the whiteboard thing because they do, they totally get out of board to plan the over throw of the,—which I thought was cool. I didn't dislike it. [all laugh]

[KATE]  His byline for that book is always heist. Heist, heist, heist. He puts it at the front of all of his marketing campaigns. Add sad D&D campaign. That's Brennan Sanderson. [all laugh]

[KARLI]  All right. This is the most unnecessary book I've ever read. Not only that, but nothing in the book actually relates to killing a certain creature. And as a professional, high ranking member of the elite creature hunting society. Killing a certain creature is so simple that in fact, there are not even enough steps in the matter to write a whole book about the matter. Such a disgrace to people like me, would not recommend. Who had it first?

[KATE]  A.P. did. I'm backup answer.

[KARLI]  Okay, A.P..

[A.P.]  This has got to be a Witcher book.

[KARLI]  No.

[A.P.]  Really?

[KATE]  That’s what I was gonna say.

[A.P.]  No way.

[KATE]  Creature killing. Wait, I want to take my guess anyway. Is it ACoTaR?

[KARLI]  No.

[KATE]  Okay.

[JAMIE]  It's giving off like a category of books that I'm trying to like. Which one would it be? Okay, what's the—we need an additional clue.

[KATE]  Can you read it again first?

[KARLI]  Sure. This is the most unnecessary book I've ever read. Not only that, but nothing in the book actually relates to killing certain creature. And as a professional, high ranking member of the elite creature hunting society. Killing a certain creature is so simple, in fact that there are not even enough steps in the matter to write a whole book about the matter. Such a disgrace to people like me would not recommend. All right, who, who?

[A.P.]  Jamie was first.

[KARLI]  Okay.

[JAMIE]  Vampire Academy.

[KARLI]  No.

[A.P.]  Shadow Hunters?

[KARLI]  No.

[KATE]  The Howl of Midnight?

[KARLI]  No. All right. I'm gonna give you one more clue because you guys are so far from it. [all laughing] And I feel like it's unfair because I said creature and I think that you guys are going way into fantasy. And you need to dial away back to mundane. Like real world creature.

[JAMIE]  Vampires are totally mundane.

[KARLI]  Yeah, mhmm.

[JAMIE]  Clue me!

[KARLI]  That's your clue, is like bring the creature back down to something in the real world.

[JAMIE]  That was—I thought you were gonna like read another review from it. [laughs]

[KARLI]  I mean, I can if you'd like me to. Yes, A.P..

[A.P.]  Jurassic Park.

[KARLI]  No. [A.P. and Karli laugh] I said real world A.P..

[KATE]  [laughing] How is that mundane?

[KARLI]  I said real.

[A.P.]  Dinosaurs are real!

[JAMIE]  I don't understand how something goes from being a certain creature to mundane. Is it like The Revenant? Are you talking about like a bear? [laughing] I don't understand.

[KARLI]  Oh my god, I now am convinced I need to read a different review of this book because you guys are so far from it... [laughs] It's cracking me up. Actually, I thought that this one would actually be one of the easier ones.

[JAMIE]  Especially because he said he was a high ranking member in the certain creature hunting society. What the hell does that mean? How could this not be something high fantasy?

[A.P.]  Made up shit. I mean, no one's getting points for this one, right?

[JAMIE]  Yes. Let's agree to that now, so A.P. doesn't extend his lead. [A.P. laughs] I guess Karli can get a point for this one because she stumped us.

[KARLI]  I really want to just read that one. But it's more of, more of the same nonsense that will not help you.

[A.P.]  Do it.

[JAMIE]  Do it.

[KARLI]  While the plot was very gripping and well written, the book didn't actually instruct me on how to kill this creature. I bought this book intending to do away with this obnoxious creature that's always sitting in my backyard and making distracting noises. I had hoped this book would shed some light on how to humanely dispose of the creature. But unfortunately, it was this story about a lawyer and a falsely accused criminal. As I said, the plot is great, but nowhere in the book does it say exactly how to kill this creature.

[KATE]  How To Kill a Mockingbird!

[KARLI]  Yes.

[KATE]  I get a point for this.

[KARLI]  I agree, Kate gets a point for that.

[A.P.]  These are just troll reviews. These aren't like. [all laugh]

[KARLI]  So great. And I'm so happy now. Thank you guys for just indulging in one of my favorites pastimes. [all laugh]

[KATE]  That was really good. The Witcher! [more laughing]

[JAMIE]  Seemed like it should have made sense to me.

[KARLI]  I mean, and that's why I was like, oh, god, saying creature just way out the way out in the weeds. [all laughing]

[KATE]  Oh, yeah.

[KARLI]  That was a bad choice on my part. Wow.

[A.P.]  So really everyone gets a point.

[KARLI]  Yeah, totally. Mmm no.

[JAMIE]  Karli's probably not even actually writing down when we get point. [all laugh]

[A.P.]  Jamie's so salty that she's in second place.

[JAMIE]  I'm not not salty. Okay?

[KARLI]  I'm writing down everyone's points but A.P..

[KATE]  I'm coming for a second place.

[A.P.]  You're tied in second now, aren't you?

[KARLI]  No because Jamie didn't get a point for that other one.

[JAMIE]  Well, that means I had to and Kate had one before so she would have two if you give her a point for—I told you she wasn't writing it down.

[KARLI]  No, she has three now. She had one before. She had two. Because she got How to Lose the Time War. And she got oh, no, A.P. got the blade itself. Aw, fuck me.

[JAMIE]  You see what I'm—just trying to make sure everything—

[A.P.]  I'm winning by even more points. You're right.

[KATE]  Great.

[KARLI]  Given one of your points to Kate, it's fine. Don't look too close.

[A.P.]  It's fine so long as Jamie loses.

[JAMIE]  So A.P. has five points. Is that what you're telling me?

[KARLI]  I think so.

[KATE]  [disgusted noise]

[JAMIE]  How many more questions do we have?

[KARLI]  Two.

[JAMIE]  That's it?

[KARLI]  Yeah. Okay. I have to make sure that I'm really good about this one, or you guys are gonna guess it. Reading this book feels like reading a homework assignment. Instead of keeping the summary as personal notes, he published it. The fact that the author boasts about being a writer only makes it worse, you can actually smell the cheap tools he uses to put words into text and build chapters out of thin air. I wanted this book to get better, but it doesn't. Up to the very end, the author repeats the same choice pattern. Tell them what you were going to tell them. Tell them, tell them what you told them. Simplify science to the border of being wrong. Abuse of as such a person said insert quote here, build each chapter out of unacknowledged, stolen, refurbished concepts coming from other writings that predate this book.

[A.P.]  I had my hand up first, but my guess was wrong. So I will say my wrong guess and then Jamie can go.

[KARLI]  Okay.

[A.P.]  I was gonna guess the Silmarillion but that's not correct.

[JAMIE]  And I was going to guess The Martian by Andy Weir.

[KATE]  Ooo that's a good guess.

[KARLI]  No.

[A.P.]  I have a correct guest though.

[JAMIE]  Oh.

[KARLI]  Wait, wait, what Kate?

[KATE]  Oh, no, I said The Martian was a good guess.

[JAMIE]  Thank you.

[KARLI]  A.P.

[A.P.]  Atomic Habits.

[KARLI]  Yes.

[KATE]  Oh, see, I can't break my brain away from science fiction, fantasy. [all chuckle]

[KARLI]  That was gonna be my clue. If he was wrong again. I was gonna say it's nonfiction.

[KATE]  Okay.

[JAMIE]  That is the format of every single self help book there is.

[A.P.]  Yeah, I'm like—Jesus.

[KARLI]  Right. I mean, like, I don't know why this guy's mad. Like, this is what—this is what self-improvement book patterns look.

[A.P.]  Yeah, like—

[KARLI]  This is the format. This is how we intake that information. This is the only way most mundane brained people can actually accept that kind of information. Thank you very much. [A.P. and Karli chuckle] I speak for myself. All right.

[JAMIE]  So you just extended the lead, right?

[KARLI]  He did. He did indeed.

[JAMIE]  Now there's now we're basically just competing for—

[KATE]  Second.

[JAMIE]  Second place.

[KARLI]  Kind of, yeah.

[JAMIE]  Unless we forced Karli out—back into the interwebs. To find more.

[KARLI]  I'm actually looking for more right now. So give me a second. [Kate laughs] Okay. The writing also suffered because author tried to pad her own narrative with one of my biggest pet peeves ever, the narrative question, you know, but why was I here? What reason could he have to keep me alive? Why was he being so nice to me? Should I trust him? Should I trust anyone? Will anyone stop reading if my story is 50% questions? etc. This could be so many things. [laughs]

[JAMIE]  That—if you don't know that's Bella Swan then— [laughs]

[KARLI]  Wrong.

[A.P.]  Ohhhh! [Karli laughs]

[JAMIE]  What? That's verbatim Twilight. That was so close to being exactly what Twilight was.

[KARLI]  Alright, Kate.

[KATE]  This is A Court of Thorns and Roses.

[KARLI]  Yes it is. [Kate and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE]  Twilight and A Court of Thorns and—

[KATE]  Exactly.

[JAMIE]  Switch out vampires for fairies.

[KARLI]  Right. Yeah, on point on point.

[JAMIE]  Good job, Kate.

[KARLI]  I mean, and I have read both A Court of Thorns and Roses and Twilight more than once. I'll admit it.

[KATE]  Was this my review of A Court of Thorns and Roses? [all laugh]

[JAMIE]  That's exactly what I remember Twilight being. [laughs] And you read all of the ACoTaR series didn't yah?

[KATE]  [frustrated noise] I'm stuck in the third one. [Karli laughs] My friend at work is trying to get me to finish it. Because she was like, you just have to finish it. You just gotta get through it.

[JAMIE]  But do you?

[KATE]  Like no, I don't. [all laughing]

[KARLI]  I have—I have one that I like al—like one prepared, but that's going to be the last one. I'm saving that for last. I found another one now. This is also in the non-fiction category. Do you like talking to furniture? Do you believe shirts have souls? Are you insane? This might be the book for you.

[JAMIE]  I have a guess.

[KARLI]  Yes.

[JAMIE]  The what is it called, The Tidying Up book by Marie Kondo.

[KARLI]  Yes.

[KATE]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  That's the one. [chuckles] If a shirt has a soul and it's non-fiction, it's Marie Kondo.

[KATE]  And you have to thank you for its service before you throw it away.

[KARLI]  Yeah, yeah. I mean, like I read it. I was obsessed with the show. It actually honestly helped me tidy up my house in a way that I have never done before. Will I ever do it again? Probably not. But I liked it at the time. I loved it. In fact, it was very good for me.

[A.P.]  What is this? I've never heard of any of this.

[KATE]

The Life Changing Art of Tidying Up.

[KARLI]  It's the the Marie Kondo method where you like, if it doesn't spark joy, you get rid of it. Did you ever hear that?

[JAMIE]  It's a way to organize and filter through everything in your home to get rid of declutter and organize your life.

[KARLI]  And like relieves stress from your mind and things like that. Yeah.

[A.P.]  I guess I just don't have that issue.

[JAMIE]  I love that book because I love throwin stuff away. [A.P. laughs]

[KATE]  Oh, me too.

[JAMIE]  So How many questions did you have?

[KARLI]  I had a certain number.

[JAMIE]  That's what I figured.

[KARLI]  Thirteen, fourteen, fifteen—and then this last one will be sixteen.

[KATE]  We did sixteen?

[A.P.]  Time flies.

[JAMIE]  We're really good at this you guys. At least A.P. is. [A.P. and Jamie laugh]

[KATE]  Jamie got zero points.

[JAMIE]  Kate's coming right at me.

[KATE]  Just to throw it out there.

[JAMIE]  She's just denied any points that I had. [all laugh]

[KARLI]  Well, this was a very weird book. It annoyed me how the perspective of the story changed frequently throughout the book. I was constantly confused whether protagonist was speaking in past or present. Wow you guys are sure already. Dang.

[JAMIE]  Finish it up. Finish it up.

[KARLI]  I'm not done. This book really got on my nerves for several reasons. Sorry, but I have to unleash some of my hatred for this book. One: Wow. I quote unquote love how it is so convenient that they spontaneously keep running into giant spiders, evil elves, goblins, giants, etc. I know they need a climax and all that seriously? Two. Okay protag you have a mother frickin’ wizard with you. Why don't you ask him to like um, help?

[JAMIE]  Wait, hold on. You guys had raised your hands earlier. Do you want to guess?

[KATE]  I was wrong.

[KARLI]  Oh they—

[JAMIE]  Because I know what it is now.

[KATE]  I don't.

[A.P.]  I have a wrong guess. I think.

[KARLI]  I want to I want to finish reading.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, but it's—I don't want them to raise their hands and then be in first cue because they raised their hand earlier when they had a wrong guess because I have—

[KARLI]  No, they put their hands back down. You put your hand up, you're good.

[A.P.]  Jeeze Jamie.

[JAMIE]  I'm not gonna get screwed out of my one point. [all laugh]

[KATE]  You're in second.

[A.P.]  Yeah, this isn't gonna make you win, like chill out. [all laugh]

[JAMIE]  It's all I have. I need this. [more laughing]

[KARLI]  Final question. It's all I have. [laughs] Protag, use your brain I don't care if you have to build a plane, blimp, submarine or whatever but really don't you have a better way of transportation? Four: you are being counterproductive. Five: you are so self conscious and unconfident. Six: horrible character build up. Seven: I have no idea what time period this is in, the future, the past, the present? Eight: use the stupid map protag. Obviously we have access to the same identical map. Nine: maybe you should have you know, done some research before you and your, quote unquote, friends go stampeding into unknown territory. Ten: Wow, how convenient that mentor happens to have elf buddies right where you and your missionary dwarves are headed for. Eleven: Treasure? Really? Come on. I don't care if you disagree with my review, but I certainly hate this book. Jamie.

[JAMIE]  The Hobbit by JRR Tolkien. [laughs]

[KARLI]  Ding ding ding.

[KATE]  I just realized what it was. [Karli laughs] That review is so weird.

[KARLI]  It is so weird.

[KATE]  I don't know what time period it is.

[A.P.]  Yeah, like I wanted to say The Hobbit. I'm like this person is just wrong about a lot of this. [more laughing]

[KARLI]  Like I know you need a climax but come on.

[A.P.]  They're literally going to get the kingdom back like—

[KARLI]  In a fantasy book.

[A.P.]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  I would really like it to have some more like realistic obstacles for the climax. Okay, guys.

[KATE]  And a blimp.

[KARLI]  And a blimp or a submarine. I mean it really.

[JAMIE]  You literally have a wizard with you.

[KARLI]  Listen. Everybody's on about the, about the Eagles taking the ring to Mordor. Nah, it's about the submarines.

[KATE]  So my first guess was going to be The Fifth Season.

[KARLI]  Oh, okay.

[KATE]  And then it was gonna be Gideon the Ninth and then it said spiders and I was like, I was wrong.

[KARLI]  And you're like, okay, nevermind. But I could see where with the first couple of things with POV because those books do very strange things with POV that somebody that not used to it would probably freak out.

[KATE]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  What was your first guest gonna be A.P.?

[A.P.]  Oh, The Broken Earth series.

[KATE]  Yeah, it was mine.

[KARLI]  So definitely.

[JAMIE]  What a fun game. Thank you, Karli, for facilitating that joy.

[A.P.]  Yeah.

[KATE]  What's the final score?

[JAMIE]  I won the last question. [all laugh]

[A.P.]  Winner takes all.

[KARLI]  Um, all right. So in last place is Kate with three points.

[A.P.]  Aww.[KARLI]

Second place is Jamie with four points. And in first place, dominating, crushing it and going to rub it in our faces forever is—

[KATE]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  A.P. with six points.

[A.P.]  Let's goooo! [all laugh]

[JAMIE]  Congratulations, A.P.. You are the final award winner of 15 extra minutes of our respect. [all laugh]

[KARLI]  Extra?

[A.P.]  Yes, it feels so good.

[KARLI]  See, we didn't say when we were gonna dole those out. It's like 15 minutes in like one minute increments.

[A.P.]  One every 15 years. [laughs]

[KARLI]  Over the remainder of our friendship.

[A.P.]  The respect only happens between three and four in the morning.

[JAMIE]  Only on Leap Day.

[KARLI]  Thank you guys for playing my ridiculous game. I really appreciate your time and putting up with my shenanigans.

[KATE]  Thank you.

[JAMIE]  And thank you both for being here on this, our penultimate episode of the season.

[A.P.]  Let's go grab some beers.

[JAMIE]  Whoo.

[KARLI]  You said you didn't want to hang out with me.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[A.P.]  No like we each go grab a beer.

[KATE]  Oh, just as long as you're not in our presence.

[KARLI]  Like actually sit and hang out on Zoom together with a beer?

[A.P.]  I've committed to too much. [all laugh]

[JAMIE]  Well, I'm busy. I can't do it anyway, so if that helps.

[A.P.]  [A.P. imitates Jamie] I don't even like beer.

[JAMIE]  I'm busy. I don't like beer but whatever.

[A.P.]  I guess I don't even know if you two drink.

[JAMIE]  Just don't drink beer. Beer tastes really beery. [all laugh]

[KARLI]  [imitates valley girl] Just don't like that beer taste.

[JAMIE]  It tastes like beer.

[A.P.]  What do you drink?

[KATE]  Yeah, what do you drink?

[JAMIE]  My drink of choice would be old fashioned. If I'm gonna have like a cocktail.

[A.P.]  I don't know why but I suddenly imagined Jamie like having an Everclear still in her bathroom. [laughter]

[JAMIE]  What?

[KATE]  Wow.

[A.P.]  I don't know why.

[JAMIE]  I don't even know what that means.

[A.P.]  Really, you don't?

[KARLI]  [laughing] I love, I love that visual and how wrong it is.

[JAMIE]  I don't even know what to Google. [all laugh] Now I want to know everybody's cocktail of choice.

[KARLI]  Ask me what day of the week it is. I don't know.

[JAMIE]  Can I get an alcohol?

[KARLI]  That's yeah, I like drinks in general. I'm—it depends on my mood. Pretty much everything. I do not like vodka. That's pretty much it.

[A.P.]  All right, Kate.

[KATE]  I like craft cocktails, but I like gin and tequila.

[A.P.]  Like together?

[KATE]  Not together. [all laugh]

[KARLI]  But just like—

[A.P.]  I'd like a gin and tequila. Straight up. [more laughter]

[KATE]  I need about a week between each drink.

[KARLI]  A.P.?

[A.P.]  Mezcal Paloma.

[KARLI]  Mmmm.

[JAMIE]  Well, maybe someday, we'll see. We'll all have a drink together.

[KARLI]  I mean, I'd really like that. Even if you nerds don't want to hang out with me in real life. I would like to hang out with you guys.

[KATE]  I do.

[A.P.]  Yeah, like joking aside, that would be cool.

[JAMIE]  Yeah. Thanks, you guys. You can find Kate on Instagram @lilyhammerxm, and her website lilyhammerwriting.com. And you can find A.P. on Twitter and Instagram @apthayer. He also has his own website where he has links to his work and where he has links to his work. And you should check it out. Wow. Thank God the seasons almost over. Whatever. If you listen to the podcast, you know enough about A.P. we're giving him a lot of free publicity. Let's just— [laughter]

[A.P.]  Woah, woah, free?

[KARLI]  [laughing] Wow!

[A.P.]  We're not discussing the monthly payments for advertising? No I'm just kidding. [more laughter]

[JAMIE]  The emotional toll for you to show up all the time. Yeah. So thank you guys. Go and follow them. Check out their work, keep track of their careers. They're super fun, and very helpful and insightful. Thank you guys.

[A.P.]  Jeeze that was real—

[KARLI]  Yes.

[JAMIE]  Thanks for listening. You can find the links to all of our social media as well as our website where you can sign up for the newsletter or access our transcript in the link of this episode.

[KARLI]  Don't forget to follow and subscribe.

[JAMIE]  And we will be here next week for the final episode of season two, The Act Break Podcast. Thank you again for listening and thank you guys again for being here today.

[KARLI]  Good night and good luck.

[KATE]  Bye.

[A.P.]  Farewell.

[KARLI]  Fare thee well, friends.

Transcript

Video Games & Story - Transcript

[KARLI]  I feel like I might be breaking out of my reading slump.

[JAMIE]  What are you reading?

[KARLI]  The Once and Future Witches.

[JAMIE]  Oh, nice.

[KARLI]  The crowd goes wild.

[JAMIE]  I might be about to DNF the book I was looking forward to the most all year.

[KARLI]  No! The um—

[JAMIE]  The one.

[KARLI]  The one. And you're gonna DNF it? Oh, gasp!

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE]  Welcome to The Act Break where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI]  Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE]  Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI]  Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI]  Welcome back to The Act Break where we use any and all excuses to talk about our obsessions. I mean, mild interests. I am K.C. Ash, or Karli, writer and video game lover.

[JAMIE]  And I am Jamie Redact. And my most hours played video game is LEGO Harry Potter. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI]  I like the LEGO video games. We'll have to get into that more later.

[JAMIE]  I played all through all the LEGO games. I—It's my cup of tea. [both chuckle] I'm not even I'm not even embarrassed.

[KARLI]  Graciously indulging us today is internet friend, fellow writer and video game enthusiast. Izzy Kildonan.

[IZZY]  Hi.

[KARLI]  Is that how you say it? Hi!

[IZZY]  How did you say it?

[KARLI]  I said Kildonan. Is that?

[IZZY]  No.

[KARLI]  No. [laughs] Kildonan.

[IZZY]  Yeah. It's alright, to be fair, you said it exactly how everyone else says it. It's just everyone wrong.

[KARLI]  Well, I don't feel quite as bad about it then. [chuckles] Hi, I'm so glad you made it.

[IZZY]  Thank you. I'm glad I could make it. Thank you for inviting me on.

[KARLI]  Of course, of course.

[JAMIE]  We will slowly just use up all of our resources with everybody we've ever met on Instagram. [all chuckle]

[KARLI]   Yes.

[JAMIE]  Lucky for us, we've met a lot of interesting and knowledgeable people. [chuckles] I'm excited that you're here is what I'm trying to say.

[KARLI]  So we have known each other via Instagram for quite a while now.

[IZZY]  Like four years.

[KARLI]  I think it's been longer. [Izzy gasps] Wait.

[JAMIE]  It has been longer because you beta read for me.

[IZZY]  I did.

[JAMIE]  Back in... what 2017?

[IZZY]  Oh was it?

[KARLI]  You also beta read for me.

[IZZY]  I did.

[KARLI]  In 2017 or 2018. So wait, what year are we in now?

[JAMIE]  I don't know. 2075?

[IZZY]  I'm pretty sure. Because I started writing my book in 2018. And then I met you guys in the writing community on Instagram. I think it was after.

[KARLI]  Yeah. And I'm trying to remember, I feel like we talked to each other a little bit before you started reading for my novel, but it was just a little bit and then we really picked up after that.

[IZZY]  Yeah, yeah.

[KARLI]  And we talked a little bit more consistently. So that was like five years ago now.

[IZZY]  Oh.

[KARLI]  I know. [laughs] I know. Time flies.

[JAMIE]  To be fair, the last three years don't really count.

[IZZY]  No, no the last two, three years, that's just one year, isn't it?

[JAMIE]  Yeah, that's my official stance.

[KARLI]  Yeah, we'll just pretend like those don't exist. I mean, except for all of the like the gains that we've made in relationship, friendship. Obviously, we've all gotten to know each other better over the last couple of years. [Jamie laughs] So that counts, but like all the other trash doesn't count. So.

[JAMIE]  I thought you were gonna say for all the gains we made in our writing, and then I was gonna be like, yeah, it really doesn't count. [laughs]

[KARLI]  Oh, no. [all laugh]

[IZZY]  What gains?

[JAMIE]  Oh, but I'll take friendships, put me down for that.

[KARLI]  It's been, it's been a while. And that's really awesome. But we actually get to chat with people on the podcast. And that's been really fun to actually get to dive in and get to know each other better. And talk about our obsessions, which today, we get to talk about video games; which I mean, I think the biggest video game enthusiast here is obviously Jamie. She's going to educate us. [chuckles]

[JAMIE]  I've played all the LEGO Harry Potter's you guys that were themed off of movies that I had also seen. [Karli laughs] It's okay to be impressed.

[IZZY]  I haven't played those. I've watched my kids play them. So does that count?

[KARLI]  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I—I've played them a little bit. I find it very satisfying, like the noises in the game. Like when you pick up all, all the bricks?

[IZZY]  Clickety clackety.

[KARLI]  Yes. So today we're talking about video games, our interest in them, how much we play and really try to get a little bit more in depth with stories within the games and how they may have impacted us.

[JAMIE]  So obviously we've joked about me playing LEGO games. I haven't been heavy into gaming for years. But I was wondering offhand like, what's the game? To you guys that like you play the most?

[IZZY]  Skyrim.

[JAMIE]  Skyrim?

[IZZY]  Yeah, I think I got two to three thousand hours on that thing over multiple um, consoles, platforms.

[KARLI]  I was gonna say I remember one day and your Instagram stories you like did a screenshot of your steam. [Izzy laughs] Your Steam account tells you how many hours you've played in a given game.

[IZZY]  That was Elder Scrolls Online. Yeah.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[IZZY]  Hit a thousand hours on that.

[KARLI]  Yeah. And they're like, do you want to recommend this game?

[IZZY]  Nah, it's shit. [laughs]

[KARLI]  Like, nah, I don't like it. I've only spent a thousand hours here. Mine is World of Warcraft. So.

[IZZY]  Oh, I never actually played, you know.

[KARLI]  Yeah, it's probably better that you don't. [laughs] It'll suck you in and consume your life, as it does with everybody that I've talked to that plays it.

[IZZY]  I've had that with other things. It's fine.

[KARLI]  Yeah, exactly.

[IZZY]  But like everyone I knew was playing it. I was like, neck deep in Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. So... [chuckles] didn't have any awareness of anything else.

[KARLI]  Understandably.

[JAMIE]  I've never personally played an RPG game. But I'm very familiar with Elder Scrolls Online, because my husband has logged on many hundred hours on Elder Scrolls Online. And I would be sitting next to him on the couch, reading a book or [chuckles] scrolling or whatever. So I'm like, That's all like, if I see it, I know what it is. I'm one of those like, I know things just through like osmosis. [laughs]

[IZZY]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  I would bet that your husband has into the thousands on hours on that one.

[JAMIE]  Maybe, yeah, I mean, you know, you know how it goes.

[KARLI]  No, I mean, no judgment. I don't know how much time I have played in game time throughout. I actually thought about sitting down to do the math, because you can type in like slash played or whatever in game, but it doesn't total it like in steam for you. It's easy. Steam just tells you how many hours you've played in, WoW. Or maybe there's another way to do it. I don't know. But you have to actually type it out per character. And then it'll tell you there's probably an add on. I don't know I'm bad at that.

[IZZY]  Sounds like a headache.

[KARLI]  But I've been playing it off and on since 2006. And it's consumed my life and you know, flunked out of college and many other fun things. [chuckles]

[IZZY]  Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE]  My dog ate my homework [all laugh] kind of vibe.

[KARLI]  I stayed up too late last night raiding. Didn't make it to class. Sorry about it.

[JAMIE]  So both of you pretty much, it's RPGs.

[IZZY]  Mostly.

[KARLI]  Yeah. Yeah, I mostly play MMORPGs. Which is massively multiplayer online role playing games. So like World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls Online.

[JAMIE]  So it for like the super, let's call them gaming novices. That would be like, you get on, you create your own character. You create your own avatar, you're choosing what race, what faction, all these things.

[IZZY]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  And then you're, you know, role playing.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  With many, many people online.

[JAMIE]  The magical world. Second, second life. [Izzy and Jamie chuckle]

[KARLI]  Yes.

[KARLI]  I just wanted to circle back to the what our experience with video games has been. And so I think though, that we made that pretty clear that like Jamie's not a hardcore gamer.

[JAMIE]  When I was like deep into gaming, I was playing first person shooter.

[IZZY]  Yeah, yeah.

[JAMIE]  LAN party style, Halo, Call of Duty, that sort of thing. But yeah, I was I was I've never actually played an MMO.

[IZZY]  I hadn't either before Elder Scrolls Online. To be honest. I've never been an online gamer. And I only ended up on that one. Because it's Elder Scrolls. [chuckles]

[KARLI]  Right? Right. [chuckles] Yeah. They sucked a lot of people into the online gameplay because of that.

[IZZY]  Yeah. I mean, they could release anything slap the Elder Scrolls sticker on it and I'll play it.

[JAMIE]  Take my money.

[KARLI]  That's—

[IZZY]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  My husband too, he'll play anything that they've got.

[IZZY]  I complain about how much they're like Bethesda, been releasing Skyrim for absolutely everything, but I've still gone and bought it every time, haven't I?

[KARLI]  [laughs] Yeah, yep. Understandable.

[JAMIE]  Now that we kind of have an idea of where we each land in the, like the I don't know what to call it. The the scale of gaming experience slash knowledge. [Karli chuckles] I feel like it'd be a good idea to give our guests the opportunity we usually do. But I got real excited about questions. But would you mind sharing, Izzy, about your creative journey and your experience?

[KARLI]  We would love to hear more.

[IZZY]  Right, with writing and everything, yeah?

[KARLI]  Yeah, or anything that you like to, would like to share creatively.

[IZZY]  Okay, so I've been writing well, I started writing when I was a kid. Wrote a lot of started stories, never got more than two, three chapters in kind of thing. Never knew how to get any further than that. When I was a teenager, I did a lot of gaming, I did a lot of message—do you remember like the old like message board RPGs? Did you ever do a those?

[KARLI]  Little bit? Little bit. But yeah.

[IZZY]  Did a lot of that. Did a bit of fan fiction. And again, that was always like related to gaming as well. Went off writing for a while, didn't write for years. And when I got back into it again, that was through gaming, and fanfiction related to gaming. And then I had my, I let my partner read my fanfiction, and he liked it for some reason. [chuckles] And somehow managed to convince me or it's good enough at writing to like, do my own thing, write my own book. So, that's where I'm at now.

[KARLI]  That's awesome.

[JAMIE]  That's a good partner, who can inspire you and support you.

[IZZY]  Yeah, nice. Nice partner. [chuckles]

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  There's always a reason we ask specific people to talk about specific things with us. And it's also so cool that it shows that gaming can like spark a creative.

[IZZY]  Yes.

[JAMIE]  Like, everybody's inspiration or whatever can come from all sorts of places.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[IZZY]  A lot of people, I think, you know, come to writing through reading. And there was a little bit of that for me, you know, since being like five and discovering that writing the book was actually a thing that you could do. [chuckles] But it was really gaming, that did it for me, because I played like, I said, The Elder Scrolls games. And that world is so massive, it's so immersive. It's so detailed, like, the level of lore, it's just crazy. And what I really wanted to do was to build my own world like that, and to write my own stories with my own characters in a world like that. But like, the most accessible way for me to do that was to write a book.

[KARLI]  Yes. I love that.

[JAMIE]  That's awesome. Yeah, it's a really great point. Because even just the three of us, Karli was a reader as a child, which brought her to it. I started writing because of movies. And you started because of video games.

[IZZY]  Oh, that's cool.

[JAMIE]  I'm the opposite of you. I don't, like if you want to, like create a giant world and all this lore. I'm like, I'm gonna figure that out later. [Izzy and Jamie laugh]

[IZZY]  I did actually do a lot of that. Four years later, and I'm in a lot of trouble. [Jamie and Karli laugh] of doing that world building backwards.

[JAMIE]  The beauty of epic fantasy writing is that you have like, so much space.

[IZZY]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  Because, yeah, because the readership does want the world building. So they show up for that. Yeah, I love that you got into writing epic fantasy more because of your love for video games. And I think a lot of the times people that I talk to when they find out that I play video games think usually like the shooter games, and they don't really have much understanding or knowledge of games that have a deeper and richer story. And not to say that the shooter games don't, because there are several out there that actually do have really in depth storytelling to them, especially more and more as time goes on. But the kinds of games that we play, tend to get really deep into, and what we mean by lore, I mean, we mean like Silmarillion level, backstory sprinkled throughout, and the deep texture of this character coming back or being hinted at for a future thing, and it's lots of foreshadowing, and it feels like you are immersed in an epic fantasy series.

[IZZY]  You are in that world.

[KARLI]  Yeah, so that's, that's very cool. Actually. The lore in like World of Warcraft, that experience for me is actually one of the things that helps keep me inspired, in world building and stuff like that.

[IZZY]  Yeah!

[KARLI]  Because I want to create a world that massive for me it is more accessible, like you said, for how my brain works to think of it in terms of a video game than it is for Silmarillion because I've tried to read Silmarillion and I'm like, dude, these names are all too similar. And I'm struggling love Lord of the Rings, so much respect for Tolkien. But like, wow, and it's easier for me to get a grasp of how I want to do it through playing video games.

[IZZY]  Yeah, yeah I totally hear you.

[JAMIE]  It seems like it's a much more accessible because it's immersive. You're right there. The story unfolds before you. You have visual aids you have all these things, whereas you know, the Silmarillion it's one written a long time ago, written into different style. Also super complex, like me and my husband recently been like looking at family tree charts. [Karli laughs] How plus get like, it's like having the other the other things that video games bring to the table. Help that that richness and also understanding of like this crazy long and in depth history that's being written and provided to players.

[JAMIE]  You kind of get to experience it or you know, like, there's like mysteries or...

[IZZY]  You don't just get the whole lot sort of dumped on your feet and like, right, you got to read through all of this. [all laugh]

[IZZY]  The way it sets up, as well, because you know, you're the player character, you're just introduced to this world. So like, your character is often kind of introduced as a new—as a newcomer to the world. You get to talk to NPCs, and so on, like, and ask questions that, you know, in, in the media or writing that would be like, "as you know, Bob" type questions. [chuckles] But like, you can do that in the game.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, that reminds me a lot of like, Assassin's Creed. You're new to the situation. But you're dropped into it.

[IZZY]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  Dropped into the past in that one.

[KARLI]  Yeah. And I think that depending on the game, how that happens, how that information is delivered, is different, based on what game you're in. So...

[IZZY]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  Much, much like books, everything is—you're gonna get something for everyone.

[KARLI]  Yes, absolutely. Your level of immersion and interaction and the amount of effort that you have to put into learning and understanding the lore actually affecting the game around you, versus just you can skip all that stuff and still get to the end, and it doesn't really matter. I hate saying it doesn't really matter, because I think anybody who's made a video game with a ton of lore, and the people who skip the lore drives me nuts. [laughs]

[IZZY]  Skipping the cutscenes.

[KARLI]  Skipping the cutscenes or they like—

[IZZY]  I can't—I can't watch someone gaming where they skip the cutscenes. Like, why? Stop!

[KARLI]  Why?

[IZZY]  How do you know what's going on?

[KARLI]  You get a free mini movie and you get to learn all of this cool stuff, I don't understand. I don't understand. And they just, they just want the cool gear at the end or whatever. And I'm like, ah, you're hurting me. So I mean, I think it's probably pretty clear already with how we've talked, but like the does the story in a video game impact your enjoyment of it? Like, are you able to get into a video game, even if the story isn't super involved or engaging? Or is that pretty much like you would just DNF a book? Just a no, thanks.

[IZZY]  Depends on the game, doesn't it? Sometimes you don't want a game that's too involved. Like especially you know, when you're growing up, and you've got a job and kids and they've got all this going on, and you've only got like 15 minutes to game anyway. And like, I don't know if it's the same with you and World of Warcraft, but I cannot sit down and play Skyrim for 15 minutes. I can't do it. I will get sucked in. I have missed, like lose track of time, two hours will pass, oh shit. [Izzy and Karli laugh]

[IZZY]  Uh, yeah. There is no just real quick. There's no real quick.

[IZZY]  But some games you can do that with but they're like the less sort of story.

[JAMIE]  Or like puzzle games. Because that's like when I play a LEGO game. It's like, I'm not planning to sit down for a long time because it's like, I'm just running around picking crap up. [Izzy and Jamie chuckle] I can log off whenever there's no story there.

[IZZY]  You didn't get too sucked in. No. And that's fine. Like sometimes. That's what you need. You don't need something that's telling a story. But all my favorite games do have really intense, detailed, awesome stories. The Elder Scrolls games, I've [laughs] When you said to me, hey, do you want to come and do like a video game podcast? I was like, don't turn it into an Elder Scrolls podcast. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI]  I mean, if that's your favorite, I knew we'd talk about it a lot. So it's totally fine. [laughs]

[JAMIE]  I find a way to bring up the Avatar The Last Airbender in every episode.

[IZZY]  You do. Yeah.

[JAMIE]  So don't, don't worry about it. Did it again. [all laugh]

[KARLI]  Yeah, don’t, don't shy away from it. Like, that's why we asked you because we know you're a gamer. We know you're really involved and interested. And that's the kinds of conversations we like to have is with people who are interested. So have at it.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, and if that's the game that you have the experience from, that's the game you have experienced from.

[KARLI]  Exactly.

[IZZY]  Awesome. Right two hour TED talk then on Elder Scrolls lore. [all laugh]

[KARLI]  Perfect. Perfect.

[JAMIE]  You could talk for two hours but I'm gonna cut it down to 10 minutes. [all laugh]

[IZZY]  Ah, damn. With uh, Elder Scrolls, right. Skyrim is like I say it's my my favorite game of all time. I played that game to death and I will continue to do so. But the story was... simplified. I don't know if that's the right word. But it is definitely like all the stories that you've got the main quest, you got your guild quests and everything. They're all shortened, simplified, much less detail, much less character. So I've got annoyed and everything. For whatever reason. And it makes me quite sad really that more people don't play like Oblivion and Morrowind. Because I mean, fair, you look at them now. Graphics are shite. [Izzy and Karli laugh] It's quite painful to look at. But the stories in those games are absolutely incredible. You have the main quest, which was so long, but like so engaging, and intriguing. And like I say, all the guild quests are like, way long as well. And then you have like a million little side quests and so on.

[KARLI]  But you uh, the interaction, you become engaged, even though it's long.

[IZZY]  It's super engaging.

[KARLI]  The engagement level you have with that.

[IZZY]  Whereas like a lot of the questions in Skyrim now are like, oh, go to this cave and find this sword, and bring it back to me, and here you go, here's two hundred gold. That's not engaging! [laughs]

[JAMIE]  The magic is gone.

[KARLI]  And I love that you brought that up, because I wanted to talk about like, storytelling as like an interactive art form. And what that does for us, in engagement level, and World of Warcraft has a similar thing going on right now where like, they've been around for frickin' forever. And so they've had expansion after expansion, which is, like another book is being released in the series that's enriching the world. But they've kind of tanked the game in a lot of people's opinion, in my mine included, where they've really started to ruin the story. But then they went back and they re-released the original content to play completely separately on completely separate servers. And you can pretend like all of that didn't exist. And it's been glorious. [Izzy laughs] And we're like, days away from my favorite expansion ever being relaunched. And I'm like, a little kid at Christmas. It's ridiculous.

[IZZY]  That's awesome.

[KARLI]  But um, but yeah, that whole idea of things being over simplified, I think is a similar reaction that I have noticed a lot of readers have to when a book is turned into a movie.

[IZZY]  Oh, yeah. I say you can kind of understand why because you know, you got to take a what, five hundred page, whatever book and squeeze it into two and a half—two, two and a half hour film. But with the game, I feel like [audibly cringes and Karli laughs] come on.

[JAMIE]  I have a question. Because I don't know a lot about like the gaming industry or the behind the scenes of like, corporate gaming. So do you think that, is it possible that one of the reasons like you were talking about how it's like the quests are simplified, the stories are simplified, go pick this up, then we'll give you that, is partly for monetary reasons. Because so many people that are logging on, they just want to give them whatever hit of dopamine they want for getting something to keep them on for longer?

[IZZY]  With Skyrim, I'm not too sure. Because I don't know, it's not a logging on game, you know.

[JAMIE]  I guess I was thinking more like with the MMOs.

[IZZY]  Yeah, I could definitely see that being with the MMOs.

[KARLI]  For the MMOs. I think that that is definitely a factor. I think that they're trying to draw from a wider audience and a wider pool of people. And they're attracting new people for sure. But they're not retaining the people who have stuck around, who enjoy the more involved in them. The people who like to work for what they get. The... I think of an old school game—gamer mentality

[IZZY]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  Of desiring to work really hard for what you get.

[JAMIE]  Kind of seems like it's like that same thing that you see in different industries where they're taking something kind of considered an art form, and monetizing it to the point it's been over simplified to where it becomes content.

[KARLI]  Yep.

[IZZY]  With Skyrim I felt like it was to maybe, to get the Elder Scrolls franchise reaching a more mainstream audience that they have done that monetizing with it. Like I said, re-releasing it for every platform on Earth.

[JAMIE]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  They really have.

[IZZY]  And while, in the meantime, like longtime Elder Scrolls fans, they're like, we don't want this. We want remastered Morrowind, why aren't you giving us remastered Morrowind? [all laugh]

[KARLI]  That's true, isn't it? Yeah. So I have very little experience with Skyrim. I did try to play it on the console, but I am not very good at console gaming. PlayStation specifically. I was like a Nintendo kid growing up and Xbox. That's what I grew up on. And then when I married my husband, he's always been a PlayStation guy. He had a Playstation and all I had was my old Nintendo 64. So and so I was like, I guess I'll learn how to play on the PlayStation, shouldn't be too hard for my brain to change over. False. [laughs] I am not good at PlayStation games, I—the control—I don't know what it is my brain is wired.

[IZZY]   It's two different layouts, innit?

[KARLI]  It's two different layouts. And my brain is wired for the other and I cannot unlearn it for some reason. [chuckles] So I didn't play much of it. But when I did play Elder Scrolls Online, I noticed that they changed the introduction. And I was mad. And I was like, and I barely played it.

[IZZY]  Oh yes, yeah. Every time they released a new chapter, you get a new introduction with it. And it made me mad, because when I first really got into it, it took me a few goes, that one. When I first really got into it, it was the intro for the Morrowind DLC, but I loved that. But then when I went back with a new character, I was like, it's not that anymore.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[IZZY]  What the hell. Why have you done this?

[KARLI]  Yeah. What have you done? Just make it available still. Make it an option or something, I don't know. I want it back.

[IZZY]  The best thing with ESO is when you go into—you're like, okay, cool, got two hours to play. Let's do this. And you go on how you load it up. And it's like updating. [Karli gasps] And that's, that's, that's your game time, gone. Service down for maintenance. And that's always, always it's because it's during American night time. [Izzy and Karli laugh] So it's always during my gaming time. [laughs]

[JAMIE]  There was many times my husband called on his way home from work and was like, will you turn on the PlayStation and make sure that my game is updated? So that when I get home I can play. [all laugh] Yes, yes, I can do that for you.

[KARLI]  Yep, I have definitely done that, too. That's really funny. Yeah, there's nothing like an update or server maintenance to really screw up your scheduled game time. Especially when you're trying to be a responsible adult. When you're obsessed with video games on the level that we're obsessed with video games, like you have to manage that intake or you will ruin your life. Trust me. I've done it. Like you don't have to go out and try it. Just don't do it.

[JAMIE]  I mean, as per example, Karli's used the word obsessed about seven times this episode. [laughs]

[KARLI]  That's the word of the day.

[JAMIE]  The word that comes forth. [Karli laughs]

[IZZY]  I understand that. Yeah. Ah, yeah, I really, really want to play Elden Ring.

[KARLI]  [dramatic whisper] Oh my god!

[IZZY]  And I know if I do that, no one will see me or hear from me for like six months. And eventually I'll like crawl out of my bat cave. Like a neanderthal.

[KARLI]  Yes!

[JAMIE]  That is the only game that I've seen that I'm like, maybe I should... uh? No! Don't, Don't do that. You have other, you have other things you're supposed to be doing.

[IZZY]  Don't do it, don't do it. [laughs]

[JAMIE]  That I'm not doing already.

[IZZY]  You have responsibilities.

[JAMIE]  I don't need another reason not to be writing.

[IZZY]  Exactly. Yeah.

[KARLI]  The only reason that I don't play that one more is because I am much more of an MMO person. I'm a very like, social gamer. So like I want to play with other people. If that was like a true MMO, I would be ruined. I would be ruined like it's because it is—it is what you think it's going to be. It will if you get into it, it'll be bad, don't do it. [Izzy laughs] Enjoy the art from afar just, just protect yourself.

[IZZY]  Luckily, it's still way too expensive.

[KARLI]  Yes, games are expensive, but—but it's so much story and like I get it. I get why they cost what they cost because reasons. But yeah, expensive.

[IZZY]  With story in video games. The other one I wanted to mention was the Witcher. Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, specifically. I was well late to the party with that game. I mean, it came out like six years ago, but only played it last year. But the story in that is incredible. It's absolutely incredible. And now I'm reading the books, now nearly finished the series. And yeah, they got the characters so right. The stories, like the world it's—they just got everything 100% perfect, it's incredible.

[KARLI]  That's awesome. I've been nervous to try the Witcher for the same reason that you're nervous to try Elden Ring, [Izzy and Karli laugh] because the level of obsession I'll have with it.

[IZZY]  The good thing with Witcher is that it does end eventually.

[KARLI]  That's good.

[IZZY]  You don't have this endless stream of map to explore and side quests to pick up and NPCs to talk to. Like you can complete it. That's quite a reasonable goal. [chuckles

[KARLI]  That's good to know.

[JAMIE]  We've mentioned a lot about the richness of the story in the world but for people who don't understand what that means, because they haven't played it I understand because I know from watching other people but Izzy talked about it some, about how like there's a main quest. There's usually one main storyline like you would in a book, one main goal. It's like the journey that you as the character, being the protagonist of the story, are working towards said goal or going through an arc or accomplishing something. And then where it gets really in depth with video games is side quests, or a la B stories. Then it turns into [chuckles] a massive, never ending, choose your own adventure novel.

[KARLI]  Yeah. [chuckles]

[JAMIE]  Where you get to choose which side quests you do, not only do you do those quests, but a lot of the times you get to choose whether you're going to be a good guy, or you're going to be a bad guy. And then the decisions you make impact the rest of the story that you experience.

[KARLI]  Depending on the game, yes.

[JAMIE]  Depending on the game. So I could see why the story, or the world, is so detailed, and there is so much backstory, because it has to be, because everybody's going to make different choices, and then they're going to send you down different paths. So that's a lot of writing and a lot of story to kind of factor in.

[IZZY]  Mhmm.

[JAMIE]  So for any listeners who haven't played games and don't have much experience, that's what we mean, when we talk about how deep the rabbit hole can go. [chuckles]

[KARLI]  Yeah. [Izzy chuckles]

[JAMIE]  And games, like World of Warcraft, when they're releasing an expansion, like Karli, you mentioned, like, it's like releasing the next book in the series. It's like it's gonna give you all this more lore, it's gonna give you all these more options.

[KARLI]  There's another huge story arc to complete and you get to participate in it. And I think that's why people get so involved is, it's as much enjoyment as reading a book. But then you get to actively participate in whatever the end goal of that next expansion or the next level of content that's coming out.

[JAMIE]  Oh, Izzy, let me know if this is correct, because I'm just recalling from when my husband played Elder Scrolls Online, there are some quests where like, eventually, towards the end of it, he had to choose whether to take a potion, and it actually ended up changing his character's gender, I think there was one where he had to play as a skeleton.

[IZZY]  Yeah I remember that. [chuckles]

[JAMIE]  He was a skeleton.

[IZZY]  That messed me up. Because that happened and I was like, oh, no. [laughing] What have you done to me?

[KARLI]  Yeah. Or like, you can become like a vampire or you if not, then you have to go seek out the cure. And like there's, there's so much that can happen to you, and around you in video games, and that definitely impact what actually happens.

[JAMIE]  That's why it reminds me of like, the equivalent of a Choose Your Own Adventure because your choices impact what, what ultimately happens, as opposed to there are some video games where the story is the story, and you accomplish the one goal they give you. And then you move to the next you know, the next thing. And when it's all played out, everybody, whoever played it, the story looks the same, but it doesn't always look the same.

[KARLI]  Right? Yeah, World of Warcraft is much more of the story is the story. And, and your involvement looks like most everybody else's involvement. But yeah.

[IZZY]  The Witcher is different. If you look on any online spaces, where they talk about the rich and you get a lot of people discussing what kind of ending they got, what political ending they got. Whether they got one of the good endings or the bad endings or...

[KARLI]  Or like Mass Effect is a lot like that, where you you can have different things happen as the story goes, so.

[IZZY]  I—I guilt quit The Witcher, on my first play through.

[JAMIE]  [chuckles] You made some choices?

[IZZY]  I made some choices. [Jamie laughs] It was I'm not going to like spoil anything. But very early on, you are given this absolutely brutal decision to make, like your options are bad or bad, you know. And I went with one and I carried on through and I carried on playing and I got to like the end, it wasn't until like the end of that chapter of the entire game where like the sort of the full extent, the consequences of that one decision, thirty hours [laughs] came to light. And then I felt so bad. I felt so guilty. [Jamie and Karli laugh] I couldn't live with myself.

[KARLI]  [laughs] You're like, I'm a horrible person!

[IZZY]  Forty hours of game play down the drain. I quit and I started again.

[KARLI]  Oh my god.

[JAMIE]  That's kind of awesome. But yeah, I just wanted to touch on that because I'm like, that's like so intense.

[IZZY]  It is, yeah.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  And if you've never like played that yourself, or watched somebody play that, you're like, I don't know video games. [laughs]

[KARLI]  Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it's not just like people running around shooting each other or just like, you know, old school Mario Kart, or platform gaming, which those have their enjoyment and their space and I—I love a good platform game. Fell in love with my husband LAN partying, and Call of Duty. So it's like those, those are all great games.

[IZZY]  [laughing] That's awesome.

[KARLI]  I feel like we could go on forever and ever and ever about all of these different things and get into the nuances of different games and reward systems and all of that kind of stuff. But this podcast apparently does have to end at some point. So I'm curious whether for good or ill has playing games, or particular sorts of games had an impact on writing your own stories? I know you mentioned earlier about like the level of world building and the desire to have that kind of lore. But has there been other things for you?

[IZZY]  Yes. So like I said earlier, that was, you know, I kind of came to writing through the gaming and the world building and everything. Some—sometimes that is detrimental or has been detrimental, because, you know, we writers have these shaky moments of self doubt, and impostor syndrome and everything. And then sometimes I manage to get myself into a hole of the world I build is never going to be as amazing as this world that was built for this massive gaming franchise by an entire team of people. [all laugh]

[JAMIE]  Imagine that.

[KARLI]  That thought is so relatable, it hurts. [laughs]

[IZZY]  So it can be an easy trap to fall into though you know you're trying, you know you've got to try and remember to be logical. But at the same time, it's also helped a lot because like, in a gaming world, like World Warcraft, or any of the Elder Scrolls game, or you know, like the Witcher, anything like that, it's because it's so immersive. And like every little detail around you from like, the place names and the communities and the population, the different types of people, you have temples, you have religions, you have, you have like drinks, alcoholic drinks, they've all got their own things and everything that you can build a world as immersive in the same way, but putting on those details as well, if that made any sense at all.

[JAMIE]  I totally get what you're saying. Because the answer was in the question that you said, like they have teams of people. [Izzy laughs] When you're writing, like, yeah, we have people that like, read for us or whatever.

[KARLI]  But we're the team.

[JAMIE]  There's so much to keep track of like, I don't remember what I called that city that they were in, I don't remember what that drink was called. But then these things like when it's released to the masses, you have hundreds of people looking at it. Then of course, people who are like deep into gaming, like you can go on the internet and find somebody who knows all the facts. And then as crowdsourced information comes out, it's like, these things don't line up. I'm only one person. I couldn't remember what I called it. [chuckles] So when as writers we get into our own heads to be like, if everything is not completely perfect, somebody will find it. Because that's true.

[KARLI]  I visualize Reddit threads tearing apart the book that I have yet to write.

[KARLI]  Oh. [laughs] Don't go on Reddit. Thtat's the—

[JAMIE]  We should all be so lucky.

[IZZY]  That's what makes me nervous talking about the Elder Scrolls. It's because I have been on the Elder Scrolls Reddit and it's not—it's not a pretty place at the best of times.

[KARLI]  No. [laughs] Yeah, I feel that. WoW is not great with that either. [Izzy and Karli laugh] Yeah, it made perfect sense. And I find that very relatable like you, you want so badly to give people an experience like what you experienced. You love it so much. And so you want to share it with people, but you want people to feel the way you feel about that world about your world.

[IZZY]  Yes.

[KARLI]  And the pressure is so intense.

[IZZY]  Yeah, yeah, It’s—even, even Tolkien—he was still world building when he died. [chuckles] That's gonna happen to thee rest of us as well. [all chuckle]

[KARLI]  So yeah, we're gonna die we're all building.

[IZZY]  Still can't decide the origin of this one race. [Karli laughs] Mulling over it on my deathbed.

[KARLI]  Video games have been good for me and a lot of ways and creativity and stuff like that and just creative drive. But they've been bad for me, bad quote, unquote, because I can never make a final decision because I like too many options because quests, they branch out and all of that stuff. And so I am constantly side questing in my own writing and my own stories. [Izzy laughs] I can't make decisions because of that.

[IZZY]  I have—I have a fear of commitment with my stories and my world building but I think in a slightly different way where like, I can't decide to name just name a town just—just give it this one name.

[KARLI]  Because what if it's bad?

[IZZY]  Because next year, we might look back and go that's a shit name. [all chuckle]

[KARLI]  Right. You judge yourself for it in advance.

[IZZY]  And then once it's published, you can't just work on your own stuff like that. If you've got your own world, you've got all those—yeah, you've got to make a decision about what story, what side quests to stick with, now how many side quests are included with the main quest and you've got to limit yourself with that. I know that's painful. I wrote over 300,000 word book, okay. You know. But because you have this world, you have the opportunity for other stories, just because you can't include this side quest now, doesn't mean you can't make it the main quest in another book later on.

[KARLI]  Right. Or in a novella.

[IZZY]  In a novella, in an anthology. Yeah.

[JAMIE]  That's the thing to hold on to like, especially if you're writing an epic fantasy where you're like, building an entire world is like, this won't be my only opportunity to visit this world.

[IZZY]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  Someday, I will also have what I call an epic space fantasy. And it's like, when there's an idea or an offshoot, I have to be like, does this go here? Or does this go in a notebook for somewhere else in my universe? Because I can't write a 300,000 word book. [laughs] I'll die. [Karli laughs] But it's like, you have to just like remind yourself that you're like, oh, I own and have created this world. I can come back to it whenever I want.

[IZZY]  Yeah, definitely.

[KARLI]  That sounds so logical. [laughs]

[JAMIE]  It's not easy. I'm just saying.

[IZZY]  It's not, especially if it's like the book I'm writing at the moment. This is like my first proper, I said, proper. That the first original work that I have completed a draft of. Yet, it was really hard to resist the temptation to be like, I want to put everything in it. [laughing] Absolutely everything.

[KARLI]  Relatable.

[IZZY]  And now I've got to pull things back. And it's painful.

[KARLI]  And it's difficult to remind yourself like what you were saying, Jamie. It's not deleted, it's save it for later.

[IZZY]  Mmm, yeah.

[KARLI]  Any final thoughts that anybody had about video game things they would like to touch on? I mean, I know we could keep going forever, Izzy, but...

[IZZY]  Most of the notes I've got down here like, oh, this game, this game, this game, this game. [Izzy and Karli laughing] Let's talk about this game!

[KARLI]  You and I can meet up again and have just like another chat about all of this.

[JAMIE]  But the beauty of it is, at least you get to give us your Two-cent Recommendation.

[IZZY]  I've got two.

[JAMIE]  Two for one, perfect.

[KARLI]  We love a two for one.

[IZZY]  I've got the two-cent one. And then I've got the five dollar one.

[KARLI]  Ohoho! Nice!

[IZZY]  My two cent is, The Wolf Among Us, which I feel like is a criminally underrated game. I've never heard anyone in my circles talk about it before.

[KARLI]  I have heard of it. I've not looked into it at all.

[IZZY]  We're talking about story telling in gaming. This us is such a perfect example of that. It's the animation is weird. It's like a sort of comic book style animation. And there's not much like action or anything like that. There are like fight scenes, but they're like oh, you know, press this button at the right time to do the move or whatever. Most of it is all story and dialogue. And it's decisions that you make. And basically, it's like, you have all these fairytale creatures and people who have been taken into the real world. They all live in Manhattan for some reason. Because in books almost everything tastes place in Manhattan. [all laugh] And they have to like live among humans, just like normal people. And they have like glamours and things like that. And they've just got to try and get by like as normal as they can. And you play Bigby, who is the Big Bad Wolf, but he's like the sheriff. It's fantastic the way they have taken these fairytales and put them into the real world the way they have. It's so clever and it's so dark. Because loads are these fairy tales do have really dark, brutal origins.

[JAMIE]  Yep. Grimm’s Fairy Tales.

[KARLI]  Fairy tales are dark.

[IZZY]  Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, like the choices you make will massively affect the story and the way it goes and everything and the ending and yeah. I think this story, you just play it for the story. It's incredible.

[JAMIE]  I got it written—I'll write that down.

[KARLI]  Nice. Oh, yeah, I'm definitely going to be checking on it.

[IZZY]  More people need to play that one is so good. And my $5 recommendation is The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind, partly because I couldn't not recommend an Elder Scrolls game. [all chuckle]

[KARLI]  That's completely fair.

[IZZY]  Also, I completely understand why people would be put off by playing it, like the graphics or not right. They have not aged well, the game generally has not aged well.

[JAMIE]  I think that one of the things that always puts me off from starting a game like that is how long it takes to build up your character.

[IZZY]  It does.

[JAMIE]  Because I'm gonna be so far behind anybody I play with.

[KARLI]  It's reasonable. A lot of people feel that way.

[IZZY]  It's yeah. Morrowind it's very hard to level it's hard to get anywhere. It's hard to walk. Because there's no fast travel. You have to walk everywhere. And your character is slow. [chuckles]

[KARLI]  But I think that that's also the... the excitement that I have is getting—like, I earned that.

[IZZY]  Yes.

[KARLI]  And it feels so satisfying.

[IZZY]  Oh, yeah.

[KARLI]  To have put that effort in.

[IZZY]  Amazing, but the story is yeah, the story is fantastic. The lore is fantastic. The way the sort of classic fantasy tropes are shown or used is in like a really nuanced way. It's a really, really clever take on those tropes. I think I mentioned to you, didn't I, the chosen one trope in Morrowind, before?

[KARLI]  Yes.

[IZZY]  Yeah. So there's my recommendations, The Wolf Among Us, and Elder Scrolls Morrowind.

[JAMIE]  Thank you.

[KARLI]  I love it. Yeah, those are fantastic recommendations. I have not played Morrowind. But I have seen a little bit of it here and there, and I am very intrigued. I just will need to—can you get that on PC? Or is it just console?

[IZZY]  Oh, yeah, if you've got Steam.

[KARLI]  I do.

[IZZY]  It's all on Steam, and it's super cheap as well.

[KARLI]  Well, then I'll actually try it. I am way better at PC games. [chuckles]

[IZZY]  Keep me updated. I'd love to hear what you think.

[KARLI]  Yes, I will. Thank you so much, Izzy. We really, really appreciate you taking the time to come and geek out with us. It's like my favorite thing about this podcast. And I'm so glad that you were able to take the time to do that.

[IZZY]  Thank you so much for inviting me on.

[JAMIE]  And thank you for the recommendations.

[IZZY]  You're very welcome.

[KARLI]  You can find Izzy on social media @itkildonan. Follow her and check out her updates on her writing and the really rad like, vibey music and stuff that she always shares, which is one of my favorite things. And you can find us @theactbreak_podcast. And all of the links for our social media and website are in the description of this episode. Don't forget to follow and subscribe to the podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

[JAMIE]  Thanks for being here, everybody. Bye.

[KARLI]

Bye.

Writing Slump - Transcript

[JAMIE]  There. Now we're record status. Rolling, rolling, action. [Jamie and Karli chuckle]

[A.P.]  All right, let's do it. [chuckles]

[JAMIE]  All right. I almost grabbed a second cup of coffee. And then it was like, maybe I shouldn't have my heart palpitate and my hands shake.

[KARLI]  I'm on my third. I figure I'd rather have heart palpitations than cry. So, you know, might as well have like, an anxiety attack during the podcast.

[JAMIE]  We'd rather broadcast the anxiety than the sorrow. [chuckles]

[KARLI]  Yeah, absolutely.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE]  Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI]  Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE]  Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI]  Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE]  Originally, I was going to call this episode breaking a writing slump. And then I realized that that would probably require one of the three of us to know how to do that. [all chuckle] So now it's just writing slump. [laughs]

[A.P.]  Sure. Just baseline.

[KARLI]  I like it.

[JAMIE]  You know, we don't want people to get too dependent on, like, us actually having viable information.

[KARLI]  Offering something valuable.

[JAMIE]  We don't do that here.

[A.P.]  You guys are so negative to yourselves and your own podcast. [Karli chuckles] Every time I listen to episode, you're like ehhh. You're experts in your field.

[KARLI]  This is our podcast, and we get to do whatever we want. It's like it's our party, but we'll cry, and we'll cry if we want to kind of thing.

[A.P.]  Okay, incorrect.

[JAMIE]  You just said you weren't gonna cry. [laughs]

[KARLI]  Oh, crap. [A.P. laughs]

[JAMIE]  That's a different podcast. Karli's gonna have to start, emotional support podcast.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  That sounds marketable. Um, just sayin'.

[A.P.]  Isn't that just like a late night phone call between you two, where you just weep at each other? [Jamie and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE]  Every night. Eleven o'clock weep session. Pity, pity, pity.

[KARLI]  It's our eleven o'clock weep session. Pity party.

[A.P.]  Then A.P. was mean to me on the podcast.

[KARLI]  Right?

[A.P.]  [pretend crying] He messaged me to get it together.

[KARLI]  [laughs then pretend crying] Told me to stop complaining. Sit my ass down and actually write this.

[JAMIE]  [pretend crying] Do the thing. [Karli laughs] [normal voice] Oh boy, welcome to The Act Break, the story centric podcast, run by under-qualified people. I'm Jamie Redact a science fiction and speculative fiction author being crushed under a mountain of projects that could be books if only I could get it together to edit them. My co-host, K.C. Ash is a fantasy and grim dark author who is simmering in her current vibe soup WIP. And today we are joined by our guest A.P. Thayer, a speculative fiction and horror author that has sort of been crushing it all year, but for some reason, keeps showing up to talk to us.

[A.P.]  By sort of, you mean not.

[JAMIE]   You act like you're not, but let's be let's be honest. Just take it. He's really good at taking compliments you guys. [A.P. grumbles]

[KARLI]  He's like shrinking away from the computer. [A.P. chuckles] He's gonna go hit stop leave meeting, and he's gonna bounce if we keep talking nicely to him.

[JAMIE]  Not like he's had multiple stories published and a guest editing. But he still keeps showing up, which is fantastic because he has a wealth of knowledge. And his episodes always perform better than [all laugh] the ones with just me and Karli. But that's not why we asked you here. [laughs]

[KARLI]  No, no, that's—that's not it at all. No.

[A.P.]  Little did you know? [chuckles]

[JAMIE]  Originally, I said we should do a writing slump one and get A.P. to come on and give us a pep talk. Yeah, that was my that was my original goal.

[A.P.]  Little did she know,

[JAMIE]  That's not happening.

[KARLI]  So we're all here to commiserate today?

[A.P.]  Actually, to be fair, I'm better at pep talking other people out of their slumps than myself out of my own.

[JAMIE]  Same. Woo.

[KARLI]  Me too.

[A.P.]  Listen, with just the three of us combined. Yeah. [laughs]

[JAMIE]  Yeah, we do a round robin situation. [Karli laughs] I think it's safe to say that we're all at different stages in our work. And in our—for me, I'm using air quotes, writing career. [laugh]

[A.P.]  Stop using air quotes for your career. [Karli laughs]

[JAMIE]  He's so bossy.

[A.P.]  You wanted this. [all laugh]

[JAMIE]  I asked for this.

[KARLI]  You asked for this. [all still chuckling]

[JAMIE]  This is my fault.

[KARLI]  Literally what you wanted.

[JAMIE]  It is.

[A.P.]  Listen, you both have been writing for years. You both are entrenched in the community and have built a wealth of experience that you're now sharing with others. You're absolutely qualified.

[JAMIE]  I have to go. [all laugh]

[A.P.]  Yeah, how does it feel Jamie? [chuckles]

[JAMIE]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  I was just waiting for more. I was just soaking it in and I was like yeah, tell me more about how awesome I am.

[JAMIE]  She just holds her head back like she was getting drenched in glory.

[A.P.]  No. I only do little tid-bits it's like, little sprinkle it everywhere.

[KARLI]  Oh, okay.

[JAMIE]  Small smattering.

[KARLI]  That’s, that's probably a good idea, spread it out.

[JAMIE]  So we're all at different stages, but we all hit writing slumps. We all hit those times where the writing suddenly doesn't come easy, or that just, it just stops.

[KARLI]  Or at all.

[JAMIE]  Um, exactly [Jamie and Karli laugh]

[A.P.]  I mean, I'd say it's like the exception for it to come easily.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[A.P.]  At least for me, even like a middling day. It's like a struggle. I'm like, you gotta put the focus and energy into it.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, I think it's really, really rare to have somebody who doesn't hit like those slumps and lulls, like 99% of us are not like Brandon Sanderson, who just like stress writes four books.

[A.P.]  That smarmy man.

[JAMIE]  Most of us, uh—

[KARLI]  Mere, mere mortals. [Jamie and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE]  So it’s, it's common, you're not alone listener.

[KARLI]  You are not alone. We're all in this together.

[JAMIE]  I want to talk about kind of what a writing slump is to us. And then like the ways they differ, because even though all of us have them, they vary in length, and cause. So along my research, I started to realize that what I consider a writing slump is kind of different than other people. So I wanted to know what your guys's opinion was. I realize that a lot of these people were specifically referring to like, the act of writing or not enough ideas or not enough create—

[KARLI]  The creative juices aren't flowing?

[JAMIE]  Like you're sitting at your desk, but the words aren't flowing, like that kind of writing slump.

[KARLI]  Okay.

[JAMIE]  So I kind of feel like there's creativity, slumps, and motivation slumps.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  And I tend to have motivation slumps. [Karli laughs]

[A.P.]  So are you saying one is ass is in chair, you're saying a blank page and you can't come up with anything? And the other one is, you don't even get your ass in the chair?

[JAMIE]  Yeah, pretty much.

[A.P.]  Okay. I gotcha. I concur. [all chuckle]

[KARLI]  I happen to agree. And I am in the midst of a... both of them. [all chuckling]

[JAMIE]  Oh, double. A double slump.

[A.P.]  A two-fer.

[KARLI]  [chuckling] I've got a, I got a double whammy going on right now. I'm trying to break the motivation, one, because the creative one doesn't look like it's going anywhere. I am deeply entrenched in that one. And so I let that turn into a motivation slump. So now I'm trying to break the motivation slump in the hopes that that will break the creative slump, because nothing else is working. [laughs]

[A.P.]  But you sat down yesterday before, I saw you.

[KARLI]  Yeah, I did. I sat down yesterday.

[JAMIE]  Butt in chair, you did it.

[KARLI]  Butt in chair, I didn't write anything creative. Doesn't matter. I journaled. So words went onto a blank page. Revolutionary, I deserve a f*@%in' cookie.

[A.P.]  But not to like lead the discussion a little bit. But I wanted to point out that you, you left your home and wrote somewhere right? To talk about like the slumpy stuff. That's definitely something that's helped me in the past as well. Getting out of the same environment is really, has been really important.

[JAMIE]  Yeah. Do you hit more motivation, or more creative slumps?

[A.P.]  How do I phrase this in a way that doesn't make you two hate me? [all chuckle]

[KARLI]  Make us hate you. Make, make me hate you A.P..

[JAMIE]  Make us hate you. Because then I'm gonna say something and it's gonna make us hate me. So it's fine.

[A.P.]  [chuckles] Okay.

[KARLI]  I love it. I love it.

[A.P.]  I... It's rare for me to hit a creative slump. Um...

[JAMIE]  Almost verbatim what I was gonna say. [A.P. and Jamie laugh]

[A.P.]  Like, I can always work on something. I've got so many ideas. I've reached so much short fiction that like if I'm not working on a long piece, I'm writing on a short piece or working on several different short pieces. So it's like, I don't really struggle with that anymore. There was definitely a time where I would like sit in front of a blank page and it'd be like, okay, how do I get into the creative mode? And how do I start just writing stuff. But that doesn't really happen to me anymore. If I'm sitting down to write, my brain just knows, okay, it's writing time and whatever I choose to work on or wherever my brain takes me. I just get going.

[JAMIE]  So it's more the motivation to put the words on the page, like dedicate the time.

[A.P.]  Yeah, over the years, that’s the one that's hit me hardest. As my career has continued, the amount of time that I've spent in that kind of lull has gone down as well. It's pretty rare for me to be in a mood where I'm like, I don't want to sit down, I can't sit down. This isn't working for me. It still happens every once in a while. The most recent one was maybe like eight months ago, I was like in the third act of my novel doing edits. And then I just took like a month and a half off, where I was just like, I can't look at this anymore. Everything sucks. I suck. I'm not sitting down and writing.

[KARLI]  Do you feel like the reason that those are so rare for you now is because you have established a consistent routine of writing, where you show up regularly for yourself, and so that's why your brain goes, yes, it's writing time; because you have established that habit? The patterns in your brain are like, yeah, we're sitting down to write. And so this is what we do.

[JAMIE]  Yeah. Atomic Habits cues. This cue leads to the next cue.

[A.P.]  Yeah, there's a lot of prescriptive advice when it comes to writing. Making it a habit is definitely one of the ones that not only have I stuck with, but actually has just been consistently true for me. I'm sure it doesn't work for like, 100% of the people; but making writing a habit just within my own work, and what I've seen other people do has just consistently led to better results.

[KARLI]  I think it's not a bad thing to try that.

[A.P.]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  Like, try making it a habit and then come back and tell me that that's not working for you.

[A.P.]  Yeah, exactly.

[KARLI]  Then we'll come up with other ideas. But chances are...

[JAMIE]  It's a proven method. So many writers preach it. Because...

[A.P.]  Because it works, very often.

[KARLI]  Because it's true.

[JAMIE]  It's basically science. It's training your brain. [A.P. and Karli chuckle]

[A.P.]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  So I mean, there's that.

[A.P.]  The more you do it, the faster your brain falls into the flow state for writing, the quicker it can like access ideas and creativity. I am not a scientist. I don't know the studies and all that. But you know, but it has worked for me.

[JAMIE]  But they exist.

[A.P.]  Yes, they're out there. [chuckles] Yeah, for sure.

[KARLI]  You can go look it up. In the past, when I was writing consistently, was definitely true for me, my brain would just engage. And we would be like, this is what we do, even if the words that came out like weren't glowing, or awesome, or if it was even still painful to get them out, more often would come faster. And I'd fall into my groove. And even if the words were bad, I was writing words, and they were coming out of me.

[JAMIE]  I—same camp as A.P., the creativity isn't necessarily the issue. The motivation is the issue. It's not happening. And it's not because I don't have something to work on. [Karli chuckles] In fact, if I didn't have to edit books, I always have another book that's distracting me from my edits. [laughs] If I could just draft, that would be a whole different story, but especially in the slog of editing, because that is writing, just another phase of writing, but it's soul sucking. [Karli laughs]

[A.P.]  Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE]  And when you have your soul sucked out of you, you don't want to come back to it every day. Weird.

[A.P.]  Yeah. And that's where making it a habit is super important. It's showing up on—I mean, this is true of any habit. Again, we've talked about Atomic Habits earlier in this episode, I'm sure we've talked about it in previous episodes. Going to the gym as a habit, like getting up and walking is a habit, all these things like, the point is to do it on days when you don't want to do it. So some words are better than no words, bad words are better than no words.

[JAMIE]  Yeah. The next thing I wanted to ask about was why we slump, everybody's going to hit one. But have you noticed any patterns in what leads you to feel like, [groans] I don't want to do this.

[A.P.]  Editing definitely, like you just said is a big one. If I spend too much time editing my own work, the self-loathing reaches critical levels [all laugh] and I have to take a break.

[JAMIE]  When I hear people being like, I'm just gonna like edit my book, it should be done in like two months or whatever. And I'm like, how do you do that? If I have to look at my book for more than twenty minutes no— [A.P. laughs] I'm just—it takes me longer to edit than it does to write the whole book, honestly. Well, I'm a slow reader. [A.P. and Jamie chuckle] That doesn't help. But yeah, the edits are what cause my slumps.

[A.P.]  I know there are people who prefer editing to drafting. Sociopaths—complete socio—. No I'm just kidding. Yeah, I mean, everyone prefers a different part of the writing process, and that's fine. But yeah, there's something about editing that will almost always... I don't think I've ever edited any of my long fiction and not gotten into a slump partway through it. Where I just need to take a break and I'm just like, I'm burned out. I need space from this.

[JAMIE]  If I look at this for any longer, I'm gonna light it on fire and walk away.

[A.P.]  Yeah, or myself or everyone or...

[KARLI]  I need—yeah, I need to take a break from myself. Please. How do I do that?

[A.P.]  Yeah, exactly.

[KARLI]  I think most of it for me is actually like life situation. Current life circumstances affect me much more than what I'm working on. Different seasons require different things from me, um—which you know, that's normal, that's people, that's life. Summers, almost always slump me, I very rarely can keep creativity through the summer because kids are home and I allow myself to get out of schedule. The motivation thing in that whole habit, I tell myself, I'm allowed to have a break. And I am not the kind of person that can take a break, like a long break. Like brakes are good, brakes are important, but I am, I break habits so easily. So you know, if I allow myself to take that break, that's like, I'm like, it's a day or two have a break, or a week or whatever. But if I go any longer than that, and sometimes a week is pushing it for me, it will go completely. And then before I know it, it's 3, 4, 5, 6 months. And I'm like, what happened? [Jamie chuckles] Where am I, and then the self loathing piles on and then it takes me even longer to break out of it, because I'm angry at myself. And then it just keeps going. And then it's, it's having to get back into that routine again. And it feels daunting, because you know it's been longer than it should have. And then that mental game starts and you have to fight against that. And it's exhausting.

[A.P.]  Not to keep going back to Atomic Habits, but he talks about that too. [chuckles] He's like, you know, it, you know, if you take a day off, or whatever you miss a day, don't create a new pattern of not doing it. So you want to create the pattern of doing it. And then if you miss a day, don't let it happen twice.

[KARLI]  Yeah. Or, and also like the being kind to yourself when you do miss a day, rather than like berating yourself. And like, at least for me, like some people, maybe that works. And I'm like, oh, man, don't do that. And then they can get right back into it. But if I start getting on myself for feeling bad about it, that sends me further.

[A.P.]  I definitely struggle with the berating. [Karli laughs] I feel like sometimes I can berate myself and it works. And other times it doesn't. I also feel like anytime I'm supporting my friends, I feel like I'm berating them, but I try to do it in a positive way.

[KARLI]  I don't know, it works really well for me. [A.P. and Karli laugh]

[A.P.]  Well good, good—

[KARLI]  Please, keep it coming. [laughs]

[A.P.]  Because I worry sometimes I'm like f*@%, I'm not really being like, supportive. You're just kind of being an asshole. [A.P. and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE]  Well, I will say for me, I never think you're being an asshole. And it works in a way that I'm like, oh, A.P. believes in me, I should do it.

[A.P.]  Perfect. Good.

[KARLI]  That's—that's how it comes across.

[A.P.]  It's working as intended. Excellent. [all laugh]

[JAMIE]  Good, good. I agree, Karli, about personal life. Because when I bother to refer to my notes—[A.P. chuckles] It says, when my personal life gets busy, all of my creative energy gets drained. So I stop putting the time aside to do that. And even when I do have the time, then I don't have that creative energy, because I just don't have, [dramatic whisper] I just don't have it in me. I've already given all that I have.

[JAMIE]  Right, the finite, finite resources. When you do sit down, you're like I already gave it all.

[KARLI]  [laughing] I'm just an empty vessel.

[KARLI]  That's the thing though, is I think where I'm at is I do I feel empty. I feel like my well is dry, I'm trying to intake that was one of the things I wanted to talk about is like, there's like a quote, and I can't remember who says it, "reading is like inhaling and writing is like exhaling." And you can't exhale, if you haven't inhaled.

[A.P.]  I wanted to echo what you both said, when my, when my life is not in order, or the old mental health is not firing on all cylinders. That slumps are definitely more likely for me, I have privilege in that I'm able to cut away from other aspects of my life to make sure that writing is always number one. Like I can work less hours at my job, I can like skip the gym, because those things are lower on my list of priorities and I will just like not spend as much money on food or not go out or not do whatever and work less hours and spend those hours, like spend the same amount of time writing but spend less hours working or doing chores or doing whatever else I need to do, so that I can kind of try and recover. I know that other people are not in that position. Karli can't just be like, screw them, screw them kids. You know. [A.P. and Karli laugh]

[KARLI]  Not gonna parent today. [laughing]

[A.P.]  Yeah, like—

[JAMIE]  You guys got this figured out right? I'm gonna go.

[KARLI]  They're fine. They know how to work a microwave. [all still chuckling]

[A.P.]  Back in the mine with you. [all chuckle] So I have sacrificed certain things so that I can put myself in this position where I can really just be like, writing is always going to be number one. And if other things take a hit, that's okay.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  I don't remember when it was on another episode, we talked about spinning plates. And each plate is a priority in your life and some are, some you can let fall and some have to keep spinning. And everybody's priorities are going to be different.

[A.P.]  For sure.

[JAMIE]  Some things, some things can wait. Like, the gym is almost always the first thing to go on my list. [all chuckle] I don't need that! When really, I do need that because it super helps my mental health and my body. So if I'm going to be sitting at my desk lot, I really do need to work out because sitting at a desk a long time does not does not feel great.

[A.P.]  Yeah, the amount of back pain is like inversely proportionate to the amount of time I'm in the gym.

[KARLI]  [laughs] Right?

[A.P.]  Crazy. It's weird.

[KARLI]  Weird.

[JAMIE]  So we've already kind of really touched on some some good points of things that can bust you out of your creative slump. Getting outside your house. Location can be very helpful. Because you know, if you spend a whole bunch of time at your desk goofing off or on the Internet, much like the Atomic Habits—that's our big recommendation for the day, I think. [A.P. laughs]—your brain thinks, I can do whatever I want when I sit here, I can be on the internet.

[A.P.]  While you had a call me out like that? Damn. [Jamie and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE]  If you have a specific place where you always work sitting down at that place, cues your brain, that it's time to work. Going to a coffee shop that you work at pretty consistently. Coffee shops, libraries, a library is a great place to go. Because you don't have to spend any money. It's quiet, and they don't care how long you sit there. Yeah, yeah. You know, I get the not everybody can go to a coffee shop that—coffee is outrageously expensive.

[KARLI]  Oh my god. So expensive, right now. [A.P. chuckles] Even a cup of black coffee. But yeah, exactly. Libraries are free. There are places to go that don't cost you anything.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, a park.

[A.P.]  You hit the nail on the head. Because like when I'm at my worst when it comes to like focus on writing and all that. It's because I'm sitting at my desk and watching YouTube. And the desk is where I'm supposed to be doing my day job. And my laptop isn't where I'm supposed to be writing. And if I conflate those things, or if I just start spending time watching YouTube all day, then it all goes out the window; and I do—my solution to that is I get out of my house, I walk to the cafe. And as soon as I walk in, I get my coffee, sit down, and it's just boom, writing time. Every time it's, it's guaranteed to get me out of that.

[KARLI]  I was thinking about it yesterday because I went to a coffee shop to write. And I sat down and immediately, I didn't feel creative, but it felt completely different than the entire last couple of weeks where I was trying to sit at my desk and do it. I felt less defeated when I opened up the document.

[JAMIE]  Because you've sat at that table so many times and have felt defeated that you're like, you no longer have home court advantage.

[A.P.]  Yeah. [all chuckle]

[JAMIE]  You're just getting your butt whipped in the same place.

[KARLI]  Definitely not. Yeah, exactly. Getting my ass kicked in the same place over and over again. But I was thinking it's so funny how like, I know this. I know going to a coffee shop will help me. Like the logic is there. But did I go to a coffee shop at all this summer? No. Not once. I mean, like, yeah, I went to get coffee, [A.P. chuckles] but like usually I hit that I hit the drive thru or something like that. I was on the way to somewhere. But I didn't I could go with my computer or notebook and sit down by myself.

[A.P.]

Yeah, it is overly simplistic to just be like, oh, just go to a coffee shop. Because it takes more than that. It's self-awareness. And then it's the drive where like, okay, pack up my shit and go. And I—we keep talking about the gym too—it's like that too. You're like, I don't want to go to the gym. But if you put on your your gym clothes, you're like, alright, let's, let's go to the gym.

[KARLI]  You're more likely to go. Yeah.

[JAMIE]  And it's also, have you ever once worked out or sat down for a writing session and thought, I wish I didn't do that?

[A.P.]  Yeah, no.

[JAMIE]  No, every single time even if it was awful, you're like, well, at least I did it. I have a sense of accomplishment.

[A.P.]  Totally.

[JAMIE]  I was also going to ask about length of time for writing slumps, because they also vary. Some people who work, work, work, work, work, consider a writing slump not writing for a week. And to me, I'm like that's just life. [all chuckle] I had a writing slump in 2019 where I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything all of 2019. [laughs]

[A.P.]  Wow.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, but I found my way out of it eventually, which is really weird that I was able to find my way out of it, in 2020.

[A.P.]  Some people made bread, you got out of your writing slump?

[JAMIE]  Yep. I feel pretty great about that. Although I do like bread. [A.P. and Karli laugh] That would have been almost as helpful. So how long do writing slumps tend to last for you guys?

[KARLI]  Three months, every summer.

[A.P.]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  [chuckles] Yeah. [Karli laughs] There you go. Pattern. And that's another thing I was gonna ask is like, if there a length of time, have you noticed a pattern?

[KARLI]  So it's usually during school breaks. And so it, it fluctuates for me. But yeah, it's usually a pretty consistent pattern. And then when I get back into routine, then that's how it shifts out of it.

[A.P.]  I was gonna say that since 2016, I don't think I've had a slump, where I did absolutely no writing. I think the longest I went taking a break from a novel was three months. The second longest was the six weeks, you know, eight months ago, whenever that was. During those times, though—and I've said this before—I wrote some short fiction. So it might not have been like, oh, I'm gonna write a bunch of short fiction, I'm like, really into it. But I did write a little bit as a palate cleanser. So I can't say that I've gone a very long time without writing or doing a writing related thing. Period. I'd say maybe like a week of zero writing stuff would be the longest.

[JAMIE]  We're all just slightly like different lengths. And I think that that also has to do with how consistent we are with our routine. [Karli chuckles] Because, I tend to do it like for like a month to a month and a half. And then all at least come back and edit something. The same thing A.P., where it's like, I maybe haven't done nothing, but maybe just not anything substantial. Life gets busy, personal life gets busy. And it's like, I'll have just like a month where I'm like, well, I have to deal with all of this.

[A.P.]  Yeah, you use the word simmering at the beginning of the episode. And like when I'm in a slump, like, it's, it's pretty rare for me to not be doing anything. But like, there's, there'll be like this low level of energy where I'm doing something.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, even if I don't have a lot of energy, I usually have just barely enough to like, do an edit where I'm inputting somebody else's line edits over my work for grammar. Like that doesn't take a lot of creative energy. So I can at least sit down for a little while and do that. And it's something just enough to make me be like, maybe I'm not technically in a writing slump. [A.P. and Jamie laugh]

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  This is fine.

[KARLI]  Yeah, that's most of the time. Even if I am in a slump, or like over the summers and stuff, I'll try to work on something short or work on something for somebody else, like reading or editing or whatever, which is still like using those muscles. But—but yeah, this summer was different. There was nothing. [chuckles]

[JAMIE]  A slump can mean different lengths of time to people because some of the like, tips for getting out of slumps are overly simplistic that I mostly think of for like, if your slumps aren't very long, maybe this could help you. Because it's like just: take a walk, go outside, experience nature. And that's like if you're having a year long writing slump, like I did once, that doesn't really help. [laughs]

[A.P.]  Yeah, I mean, you can Google like how to get over writer's block, or like, there's just a ton of, you know, little tips and tricks that people always spout off and like your mileage may vary. [all chuckle] I think I think you're trying to get a more like, deeper seeded stuff. You know, just to keep talking about Atomic Habits, [Jamie laughs] re-listening to Atomic Habits, and Deep Work, has consistently helped me with all of my slumps. I'm hoping that's a little more specific, and people can actually use that.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, actionable.

[A.P.]  Yeah, and I think some of my friends have, like, I got some my friends to listen to it, and they got some use out of it. I, every time I listen to those books, I get something new from it, or I focus on a different aspect of it. And it's... it's just a nice, almost like comfort, safety blanket thing that's like encouraging but also gives me actionable things I can do. And it like kickstarts my brain a little bit. I don't know. Listening to those two books over and over again has been fantastic.

[KARLI]  I agree. Atomic Habits more-so for me than Deep Work. I did enjoy deep work, but I don't know that I would listen to it again. Maybe, at some point, but I definitely am like 100% Atomic Habits.

[JAMIE]  This is one of those things that you definitely would find on one of those lists on Google—but it is something that I stand by in and my own, where—get offline for a few days, stop scrolling, stop taking in garbage. [all chuckle] Not that it's all garbage, but it's a heavy majority, I have that under things that help with creative and motivation slumps, because you sometimes don't realize how much of your time is being sapped by that. And after two days of not being on that you find, hey, I have way more time to sit down and read or work or interact with life that fills me up with the energy and joy to keep doing this thing that I'm pretty sure I like doing. So I feel like getting offline is something. If you've never tried it, you should definitely give it a go. [chuckles]

[A.P.]  Yeah, I mean, social media is designed specifically to be an endless scroll. So it's just so easy to just keep going. I know that you guys have been doing this for a while now. I only recently have put timers on things like TikTok. So after an hour of daily usage, it like pops up. And I'm like, alright, that's enough. No. [chuckles]

[JAMIE]  I have mine set for like 15 minutes. Yes, sometimes I just hit that remind me in 15 minutes. But like, even if you don't get off, right, when it pops up having that thing keep popping up. It's like, oh, it popped up three times. I've been here for 45 minutes doing nothing. That always helps me because it also makes me feel like I've detoxed from other people's content. So that my brain has stopped focusing on external content, and I can start focusing on my internal art.

[A.P.]  I don't know if you've experienced this too. But it's also made me a little more purposeful about when I'm scrolling and made it maybe a little more enjoyable, because I'll be like, okay, you know what, I'm gonna take a break. So I'm gonna go lie down on my bed and scroll. I'm like, that's what I'm gonna do. And it's not like, I'm at my desk, I've got my phone open, and I'm just kind of like multitasking or whatever. It's like, okay, I have a moment I'm taking a breath. I'm gonna go lie down and scroll for however long.

[JAMIE]  Yeah. Because instead of like you said, the endless scroll of whatever. Now when I get on, I'm like, oh, I want to check on these people I know, or am friends with, or I'm interested in what they're doing. So I'm actually being more intentional. It makes it more enjoyable. Yeah, I agree.

[KARLI]  Yeah, definitely.

[JAMIE]  Another thing that I feel like I kind of learned from A.P., that helps—

[A.P.]  Ooo.

[JAMIE]  Write something short. It's, it's so easy to fall into a slump when you're writing like a giant novel. Write something short. And this is not so much from A.P., but it's from me is: Let it be bad. It doesn't matter if it's bad. Write garbage, as long as you're writing. So short garbage. [Jamie and A.P. chuckle] Better than nothing.

[A.P.]  I think I know what you're saying. And what I tell myself kind of in that vein is: because it's short and because I'm not spending months or years on this, it doesn't matter if it is bad; and I can take risks and if it ends up being a waste of time I wasted you know, a day, five days just some—it doesn't matter.

[KARLI]  Just a few. I agree with that as well. I feel like I have a suggestion that's maybe a little less actually writing... and doing something to take care of yourself because sometimes you're so in the thick of it that like you can't even write something short because mental health or whatever. So my recommendation is to drink more water and go to sleep. [A.P. chuckles] I mean, seriously, like go to sleep early or just lay there in the quiet in the dark. Seriously. Usually my slumps come also when I'm not taking care of myself mentally or physically. And it's really difficult to be creative when you're tired. And I get that like a lot of times we are all very tired because life just is demanding as hell; but we also do have control over like that whole phone thing like, we can choose to put the phone down and get an extra like—god, even if it's just an extra half hour—do what you can to take care of yourself and that tends to help a bit too.

[A.P.]  Yeah, it's a massive scam that we are these flesh sacks that require [Karli laughs] upkeep and maintenance it's just—

[KARLI]  But we do require maintenance and if we neglect that and ignore it for long enough; and we, you know, don't put things in that are good for us, we're gonna crap out. [laughs[ It's gonna happen.

[A.P.]  Yeah, it literally can be that simple, of like getting enough sleep, hydrating enough, and like eating properly; which is the mother of all bullshit.

[JAMIE]  So frustrating because like—Karli has already mentioned a couple times—it's like, you know the answer to a lot of the questions.

[JAMIE]  Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE]  It's just doing the thing.

[A.P.]  [chuckles] Yeah.

[KARLI]  I mean as simple, quote unquote as it is, that's hard to do sometimes. It's hard to get into new habits of taking better care of ourselves, because it's just so much easier to stay up late scrolling and eating crap and not drinking enough water because the coffee or whatever tastes better.

[A.P.]  Yep.

[JAMIE]  I really like is spending time with other creatives.

[A.P.]  Definitely.

[JAMIE]  Other people who are working towards a similar goal. That way, basically, you can just like motivate each other, like we've been doing this whole time.

[A.P.]  I'm glad you mentioned that, because nothing helps a slump like commiseration.

[KARLI]  [chuckles] Yeah.

[JAMIE]  It's, it's bad. With NaNoWriMo right on the horizon, this is a great time if you don't have community, to find community, because there are so many participants, and there's lots of groups and chats get plugged into. If you don't already have a community, that is a great way to find one.

[KARLI]  People are looking for community this time of year, more than I think almost any other time of year because of the NaNoWriMo thing. So I mean, like even if you're not going to participate in NaNoWriMo, like utilize that as a tool to like get yourself in with other creatives, if you need that.

[A.P.]  Go to a like a NaNo launch party, just as like, even if you're not going to do it, or you're on the fence just like go to a local one, if they have them and just like soak in the vibes.

[JAMIE]  Yeah. And there's a lot of online events, too, if you, if you absolutely don't have one in your area.

[A.P.]  Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the people aspect of it. Because like, as we've touched on, a lot of this stuff is like mental. It's like mental barriers and all that. Externalizing all of this inner stuff to someone else who understands, not only organizes your own fears, and makes you put them in a coherent way, so you see what you're talking about. But also makes you feel less crazy because someone else understands you; and is like, yeah, totally, I absolutely get what you're going through, I've been through it myself. So you're no longer in like mental anguish alone, you are in shared anguish. [A.P. laughs]

[KARLI]  Shared anguish. But there's something to that, because the isolation is like one of the biggest things that will compound your fears and anxieties. While writing is a very solitary act, it shouldn't be something that you keep to yourself. Sharing that with other people, absolutely. Like there's nothing like telling somebody, I'm struggling with being creative. And they're like, oof, I've been there. What can I do to help you out?

[JAMIE]  And sometimes just being constantly in your own head, in your own loop, you need a distraction. You need one of the other things I was going to say is, help somebody else with their work. Like beta read for somebody, because the longer we spend isolated in our own heads, in our own loops. It just goes round and round and down.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[A.P.]  Yeah. The ole downward spiral.

[KARLI]  I have one more recommendation. Journal. Instead of write creatively. Sometimes the fantastical ideas just don't come. Or if they do they sound dumb as hell, and you can't bring yourself to write them because you got a mental block with it. Journaling almost always helps me break out of that feeling. It takes a while sometimes. Currently, it's taking a very long time. But I have been trying to show up and just journal and even if you just journal about how irritated you are with yourself—that's currently what I journaled about yesterday, so... [laughs] yeah.

[A.P.]  Yeah, I've actually journaling my way out of an editing slump.

[KARLI]  Nice.

[JAMIE]  That ink coming out of the pen is just so soothing.

[KARLI]  In out of the pen, typing words on a blank page, cues your brain back into that routine of we are, we are writing things down. [A.P. chuckles]

[JAMIE]  Yeah, look at us go. I have a little section. [chuckles] I wrote pep talk. [A.P. chuckles] So writing slumps happen. It's no reason to throw in the towel. You started this for a reason. Maybe even if you have to go back and examine those reasons. If your motivations are different now, that's fine. I'm just saying don't, don't give up completely. Try not to compare yourself with others. Some people online especially show only highlights. That's fine. Some people show all the struggles. That's fine. It's up to individuals on what they share. Pretty much both ways you don't know what their scenario is. But comparison is a killer. Cut yourself some slack. But absolutely, there is a time when you need to give yourself a break and there's a time you need to push yourself. There is a good chance that if you are always giving yourself slack, you will hang your writing career with it.

[A.P.]  Nice.

[JAMIE]  That's my opinion.

[KARLI]  I agree with all of that.

[A.P.]  I disagree—no. [A.P. and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE]  Because I'm like, I get it mental health is important. But some people need to be pushed. I need to push myself. If I don't push myself, I'm not going to get anywhere. So if every single time, I don't feel like it, I cut myself a break, I'm not helping myself at all.

[KARLI]  Right.

[A.P.]  For sure. We, we need to know what we need. And you know, when is enough, and when it's not enough.

[KARLI]  It takes a lot of self awareness. And that's really hard. And that's something I think there's nothing like becoming a writer to learn who you are. [A.P. and Karli chuckle]

[JAMIE]  And it takes years to know something about yourself sometimes. It's sad, but true, that you just like you're like, you know, after three years of not doing this, I finally figured out that it's because I don't function well. And I have to do this instead.

[KARLI]  Instead. Mhmm. Definitely.

[JAMIE]  It's [chuckles] so discouraging for any early writers. It's gonna take years for you to figure it out.

[A.P.]  Yeah, all this shit just takes time. Which kind of leads into something that I just thought of a few minutes ago while you're talking. A friend of mine, I think a couple years ago now, Christopher Zerby, a great writer, one of my closest friends. And he's my writer group here in LA. He gave me a pep talk a couple of years ago, that—to boil it down and oversimplify it—he said climate, not weather. So slumps are weather, feeling shitty is weather, and like, off and all that. But if you're continuously making gains and making efforts when you can, and you're doing the best job that you can, you're moving in the right trajectory, and you will get the dividends that you're working towards. Even if you have slumps and obstacles, and even like backwards movement. It's an aggregate.

[KARLI]  Yeah, creating a climate for yourself in which you can grow and thrive as a creative and understanding that like, wild weather is going to happen sometimes.

[A.P.]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  Even in that climate. Yeah, I love that.

[JAMIE]  That also reminds me of and I think we'll all agree what will be the Two-cent Recommendation of this episode, Atomic Habits by James Clear, is that your efforts are compound interest. It's not a step by step by step. While it feels like it starts that way, eventually, you're going to hit a point of tripling return.

[JAMIE]  Yeah.

[A.P.]  Yeah. It's all compounded.

[JAMIE]  And if you don't understand compound interest, I'm sure there's a Google or YouTube video that explains it.

[KARLI]  Well, it multiplies. Like you think two times two is four, well, then you do four times. So he just keeps growing and growing and growing for those of you who don't want to google it, because that would be me. Just saying.

[JAMIE]  Instead, you use a math metaphor, cool, Karli, whatever. [laughs]

[KARLI]  Everybody understands four times four. Okay? Like, that's, that's— [A.P. and Jamie making skeptical noises] Okay. All right. [A.P. laughs] It doesn't matter. The point is, is it's a bigger number.

[JAMIE]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  That's all I'm saying.

[JAMIE]  But yeah, that's what that reminds the climate thing creating, like, the more you work on your schedule, like we've also harped on a lot. The more you work on your schedule, the greater the return.

[A.P.]  Mhmm.

[KARLI]  And yes, I agree with that as the Two-cent Recommendation. Excellent work.

[JAMIE]  Do you concur. Also read Deep Work. Deep Work by Cal Newport.

[A.P.]  Yes.

[JAMIE]  I am also going to have a second listen to Atomic Habits to get pumped up for the fall. Woo!

[KARLI]  Yeah, I actually need to—I'm really glad that we talked about Atomic Habits so much. I am due for a re-listen as well. And I'm sure it will help me.

[JAMIE]  Cool. You can find A.P. and read his work on his website, apthayer.com. And you can also find him on Twitter and Instagram @apthayer. You can find us at our website, scifiohmy.com/podcast, and the links to all of our social media are in the description of this episode. We are @theactbreak_podcast. Thanks for listening. And thank you A.P. for joining us yet again.

[KARLI]  Thank you, A.P..

[JAMIE]  Always a wealth of information. The Act Break podcast Season Two, now with 60% more A.P. Thayer.

[A.P.]  That's too much me, even for me, you know— [A.P. and Karli laugh] I don't want to listen to myself on your podcast as much. [laughs]

[KARLI]  See, you talk about how we talk down about ourselves and then you talk down about yourself. So...

[A.P.]  This is your podcast.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, we're a whole group of like, not all writers are like this, but a lot. I mean, self deprecation is kind of first nature.

[A.P.]  Yeah, true.

[JAMIE]  It's just the first thing you want to jump to. [Karli laughs] Because like, if everybody else knows I know like that great, then they're not going to be surprised when I'm not that great. [laugh]

[A.P.]  Gotta set those expectations.

[JAMIE]  Aim low and avoid disappointment. That's what my family always said.

[A.P.]  Hmm. Might be something to unpack there. [A.P. and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE]  Have a good week!

[A.P. and KARLI]  Bye! [A.P. laughs]

Serialization in Self-Publication - Transcript

[KARLI]  Do you hear that?

[JAMIE]  Is it the sound of decay?

[KARLI]  [dramatic whisper] It's the sound of silence in my home? [Jamie and Karli chuckle] Actually, it's the song, Sound of Silence playing in my head. But you can't hear that only [laughing] me my other personalities can hear that

[JAMIE]  A party in your brain, nobody is invited, but other versions of you.

[KARLI]  Other versions of me and some of them aren't even invited either.

[JAMIE]  [chuckles] I love dis-inviting myself to parties.

[KARLI]  I mean, especially my own.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE]  Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI]  Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE]  Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI]  Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI]  Welcome back to The Act Break podcast where we have the amazing opportunity to talk to yet again, another internet friend about story stuff. And other stuff, too, I think maybe. So that's very on brand for us as well. So, you know, yay us. [chuckles] I'm Karli. And I spent all my time preparing for other people. So I have nothing to say about myself. Except I'm Karli. [chuckles]

[JAMIE]  Sure are. And I am Jamie. I am a speculative fiction and science fiction cross genre, author. Wow, it sounds so official when you say it that way.

[KARLI]  Cross genre. Mmmm.

[JAMIE]  It's funny how you could just say words, even if they're not [laughing] technically true.

[KARLI]  I mean, that's, to me. That's technically true. So I don't know.

[JAMIE]  Well, that's very sweet of you. I saw a commercial and it was like committed to more sustainable products. And also just because you say it doesn't make it true. [Karli laughs] That's a lot like my writing career. [laughs]

[KARLI]  That sounds very relatable.

[JAMIE]  Slowly crushing people's souls, but mostly just my own—

[BOTH]  And destroying the planet.

[JAMIE]  That's, that's what I'm doing.

[KARLI]  [laughing]Okay.

[JAMIE]  This is my villain origin story. [laughs]

[KARLI]  [laughing] I tried to be a writer.

[JAMIE]  You either lived long enough to become a published author or you die the villain..

[KARLI]  Or you become a super villain. Yeah, I have a feeling I've already become a super villain. But it's fine. This is fine.

[JAMIE]  [dramatic whisper] Everything is fine.

[KARLI]  And today's internet friend is Britney Wang, author, YouTuber and website designer. Her book On Wings of Ash and Dust is out on her website in serial form and on Amazon. And you can also get it in a paperback which I have [whisper] sitting on my shelf. [normal voice] And it's so pretty.

[JAMIE]  Welcome.

[KARLI]  Thank you for joining us.

[BRITTANY]  Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[KARLI]  Yay.

[JAMIE]  So happy that you had the time to come and talk with us today.

[BRITTANY]  Yeah, it's like one of the first things I'm doing as a new mom. That's not mom related.

[KARLI]  Yay.

[BRITTANY]  So yay. [chuckles]

[JAMIE]  Author mom status.

[KARLI]  Hashtag author moms. Yeah, no, that's awesome. I'm so glad that you were able to squeeze this in. I know it's challenging to like, get back into the swing of things after becoming a mom. So.

[BRITTANY]  Definitely.

[KARLI]  Good for you. Just like jumping right back in there.

[BRITTANY]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  All right. Would you like to take a minute to tell us about you, like about your creative journey, how you became what you are today?

[BRITTANY]  Sure. Sounds so epic that way. Very simple. But yeah, a little about me. I mean, I just mentioned, I'm a new mom, I'm a wife. So outside of writing, those are like the main things right now. But as Karli said, I'm also a YA fantasy author of On Wings of Ash and dust. And you mentioned the YouTube channel. And I also created a couple of courses for writers. So I have my author website bootcamp, which teaches authors how to create an author website and newsletter that helps them grow their readership. And then I am coming out with one that should be out by the time this podcast goes live that is all about writing and publishing serialized fiction. So I'm really excited about like, those kinds of projects as well. But my creative journey I think, started as far back as I can remember, where it was really centralized more around music, but it was always a story when I was writing a song it like had a character and like a beginning, middle and end and how they transformed and so it was, it's really funny to like see, kind of where I've come. I did a lot of fanfiction, and like role playing games with friends and obviously did some of my own stories. But I personally didn't ever think—a young person and think—Oh, I'm going to be a published author someday, it was just a lot of fun. And I was like, okay, the the big leagues, [chuckles] the big people are gonna be able to do that. I'm just gonna enjoy writing. But in 2017, I was in a job that had a creative element, but was just kind of draining me. And I thought about how much fun I used to have fiction writing. And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna finish something. [chuckles] For the first time I'm gonna finish a story. And I'm hearing a lot about self publishing. So I might even self publish, I might query it. I don't know, but I just I want to do it. And I got really excited because I made a bunch of writing friends on Instagram. Connected with an old friend from college too, that had already published and was talking to her a lot, learning a lot about the different industries and how to go about it. Started a YouTube channel where I was sharing my journey. And everything kind of snowballed from there of like, first querying and then going to self publishing. But that story that I started working on 2017 was a story I started writing about fairies in middle school that I pulled out, and was like, okay, this nugget in this nugget in this nugget is good. Let's work from there. And it is now the story that is published three years after I started that, and now it's my serial series and a novel and it's very exciting.

[JAMIE]  That's awesome.

[KARLI]  That is so cool. I love that.

[JAMIE]  I love hearing people's journeys. I'm all tell me all about it.

[BRITTANY]  Yeah, everybody's so different.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  Inspire me. Let me live vicariously through you.

[KARLI]  I love it. I love it. That's great. I love the music thing where you said that, like it was always like a story beginning, middle and end. That's, that's really neat. Cool. So your journey, obviously, you saw people self publishing and all of that. So what led you to decide that that's what you wanted?

[BRITTANY]  Yeah, well, for the beginning part of it, I was like, self publishing looks like a lot of work. [all chuckle] I don't know if i can do it well. And so I was pursuing traditional publishing. And I think, after a while, by the time I was like, ready to query and stuff, I just was seeing that the traditional publishing world was very slow, and very particular about what they were looking for. Then the sickness that shall not be named [Brittany and Karli laugh] hit the world, and everything slowed down even more. And I was just like, I don't know if I can wait any longer. Like, I want to do this well, I would like to have a team behind me, but it is time. Like, the story is ready. It just needs a developmental kind of editor to like, go through and help me clean up some things and a copy editor. And I'll be good. Like, let's go. So I actually took a course by Sarra Cannon. Publish and Thrive. And I felt like after I took that, I was like, wow, I feel like I have all the nuts and bolts and all the steps to like, do this fairly well. I had a few friends too, as you know, resources. And then I started really seeing people doing serialized fiction as well. So for anyone who doesn't know what serialized fiction, let me just start there. It's pretty much the same as a normal book series, except for two major differences. One, each book in the series, or what is called an episode is much shorter than a full length novel. And this makes the series faster to binge read. And number two, these episodes are usually rapid released to grow a readership fast and keep them engaged. So for example, instead of my readers waiting for a new book, maybe once or twice a year, I ended up releasing a new episode every two weeks, publishing my full series in just two and a half months. I also found this analogy to be super helpful in case it helps anybody if a typical book series is most like a movie series, so like Lord of the Rings has like that trilogy, right? That kind of mirrors the books. Then a serial series is most like a TV show, but in book form, where the overall story is broken up into shorter installments, like what TV producers have done with books like Shadow and Bone, Wheel of Time, Shannara Chronicles. And like a TV show, the key is that each episode though has its own mini story art with a beginning, middle and end, plus a cliffhanger leading into the next episode. So it's not just like taking your story and like divvying it up arbitrarily and putting it out there, you're making sure that each story is satisfying to the reader. And when they purchase it, they're like, okay, like, I know, this is continuing. But I am, I'm satisfied, and I'm excited for more.

[KARLI]  That's awesome.

[JAMIE]  I'm not surprised. This is what I expected from you. But like that is exactly how I would have also described it. That's the perfect analogy.

[BRITTANY]  Yeah. And when I heard it explained like that, I was like, This is so for me, because, you know, they would come out faster. And I feel like it organically allows you to be more engaged with your readers, because they are anxiously anticipating. It's not like oh, I know a new book is going to come out in like six months or a year. It's like it's going to come out in two weeks. Readers are probably like, oh, what do you think's going to happen next. And so like that whole waiting for the next episode, and readers kind of building that like excitement and fandom. And me, I wanted to be available to my readers. Like I didn't just want to put out something and be like, hopefully they'll find me. And we'll get to talk about you know, the books later and like their theories or whatever, like I wanted to be like really engaged. So for me, I was like, I want to do live reader, you know, discussions and do activities, and like all kinds of stuff and like that was like a real draw for me because I wanted to be really engaged.

[KARLI]  That makes sense. That's very you.

[BRITTANY]  Yeah. [chuckles]

[KARLI]  It makes so much sense to me. I'm like, yeah, yep, that's Britney.

[BRITTANY]  Yeah! And I don't think every serial author loves to do that. But like, I saw the opportunity, and I was just like, I want to invest in my readers and like, hear from them. And I think it would be a lot of fun. And like, what you can do too, is like, typically each of these episodes is like that stepping stone to the overall story arc for like the season, right? And you can also like, have a cliffhanger at the end for multiple seasons. So there were like, so many different avenues I could take, as I was looking at my particular story, more and more, I was like, my story is perfect for this because it takes a main character who gets wrapped up in a competition for the faerie crown. And there are five parts of the competition that each take place in a different province, from a different clan.

[KARLI]  So you had a natural progression of you're like, okay, well, this—yeah, that works out. Great. Awesome.

[BRITTANY]  Right? Yeah. So the first, you know, episode is her how she gets wrapped up into it. And eventually, like, of her own volition, agrees to do it. And then the next five are the trials. And there's like, a lot more going on in the plot. But like, that was the structure for me of like, it's going to feel like a beginning, middle and end, because you see the arc of each of the trials at least.

[KARLI]  Nice.

[JAMIE]  Also, the serialization format, also has something to do with like your pacing, because like you were saying, like, there's that excitement, a reader has to like, come along to the next thing and not having to wait six months to a year in between one story and the next. It probably helps you feel like your story is like moving faster.

[KARLI]  Yeah, I was gonna say the anticipation of the reader, I feel like is—it there's no, it kind of—there's kind of a die off where like, you are super excited when you read a book, and you're like, oh, that's so great. I can't wait for the next one. And then you find out yet, like, yeah, it's gonna be like, a whole year or whatever. And you're like, okay, well, I'm still excited. It's still like there in the back of your mind. But then you get on other things and distracted, and then when the other book comes back out, obviously, you get all excited again. But...

[JAMIE]  Suck it Patrick Rothfuss. [all laugh] Sorry I—

[KARLI]  Throw that in there.

[JAMIE]  Eventually, you give up is the point. If it takes too long then people are gonna lose interest.

[KARLI]  Then your excitement dies inside you. [laughing]

[BRITTANY]  Mhmm. Or it's like all these other books come up.

[JAMIE]  Yeah. And especially in the YA market. They're such voracious, like avid readers in the YA market that they are just wanting more and more.

[KARLI]  So you already mentioned a couple, I think, in your explanation of serialization. But what are some of the greatest benefits to publishing a serial?

[BRITTANY]  So I have eight, and I'll try to go through them not forever, [chuckles] so that this podcast doesn't end up being super long. But I think they're all really great and really important. The first one is that, it has the potential to improve your writing faster, I think, because these are shorter stories. And so you're writing completed stories over and over and over again, in a shorter amount of time. And I think with each one, you kind of up your craft, you're practicing story structure, you're practicing pacing, you're practicing character arcs. And hopefully, you're also getting feedback and learning from it with each episode. So I think if you're like really taking it kind of one episode at a time, really making sure that each one has its own arc, that is really a really cool benefit, just from a writing craft perspective. The other is that you can get proof of concept and netting interest for your story without having to write a complete, like full long novel, and then put it out there and nobody be interested. So I mean, in the course, I talk about a couple of different approaches of like, do you put out a couple of episodes and then hold some back? Do you like—while you're working on some or do you complete all of them, and then put them out. But if you go the route of, you know, putting out a couple and kind of testing the waters, or putting out one episode for free to see what people think, then you can kind of test your idea. See how much interest there is before you invest so much in something that maybe never takes off. Another one is some benefits with a professional editor or cover designer. So with an editor, what I had is I basically had a full length novel, and I did split it up. But I went through and had my editor help me make sure that each episode felt satisfying and had that full arc. And I only had to pay her for a full novel. But I ended up being a published author of a six book finished series. And so now I have a back list even though I only technically wrote one full length novel, if that makes sense.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[BRITTANY]  So I actually like I spent less than I would have if I was, you know, publishing a full series, but still had that professional editor experience. And I maybe wouldn't do it with a developmental editor. But with a copy editor like if you didn't like—if you only gave your first episode to a copy editor and you didn't like that editor, you could give your second episode to a different copy editor and you actually figure out which editors you really like to work with and, and you work with them going forward.

[JAMIE]  So you're not like committed for like a whole novel, because you're like, well, I already paid this person. And technically they're kind of doing what I want, but...

[KARLI]  But not really. [chuckles]

[BRITTANY]  Right, exactly. And I guess you could kind of do it with a developmental editor to like giving them Episode One, seeing what they do with it. And then you'd have to like, kind of go back to episode one with a different developmental editor, just so that they have the context. But anyway, um, cover design, though, is kind of a tricky one, because you do end up kind of maybe spending more, because a lot of people like to like buy multiple covers at once. But you can usually get a discount for buying multiple covers at once. So if you knew that you were going to do a series anyway, you're going to be spending that money anyway. But if you are already set up with all of your episodes, and you know how many covers you want, yeah, you can get like a bundle, which is really cool.

[KARLI]  Nice.

[BRITTANY]  You can also potentially get published faster. Again, if you have a finished novel, and you do figure out how to like, kind of work it out where you want to separate it into episodes well, then you can start getting episode one out theren while you're kind of proofreading episode two, and kind of getting movement forward. You can also end up getting a backlist faster. And then another benefit is you quickly develop a publishing and marketing process. So again, you're not just doing all of that stuff with one book, but you do it again. And again. And again. And again.

[KARLI]  Quick practice.

[BRITTANY]  Yes, yes. And you kind of figure out like, Okay, this works for me, and this doesn't. And so by the second or third or fourth episode, you're like, Okay, I know what works for me. And this is what I want to do going forward.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, as writers a lot of times, especially when we're in the beginning, we think, Okay, well, I have to figure out how to do this right. I feel like as you move forward, there's an evolution where you have the opportunity to be like, okay, I did these things last time, they didn't work for me, I'm gonna do these things different in the future. And that's like, when you're starting out, you feel like, oh, I screwed up. I messed it up. But you're like, no, everybody does that. And then they have to, like, learn going forward, even how we did like this podcast.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  You have to do it wrong. To figure out a better way. [chuckles]

[KARLI]  You have to start somewhere. Yeah, I mean, and I think with what what it sounds like is coming through with the serialization is it's just like, just rip the band aid off, get stuff out there. Get your practice in, keep trying and like, yeah, sure, some things will probably be more successful than others. But like, that's, that's how we learn. It's how we grow. And it's how we get better.

[BRITTANY]  Definitely. Yeah, yeah.

[JAMIE]  And you can learn things very quickly, like you said, because it's like you're rapidly doing it. If I publish one book. And then two years from now, I finally publish my next book. I'm not going to learn as many lessons as somebody who's been serial publishing other things.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  They've evolved quicker.

[BRITTANY]  Sure, yeah. No, you're definitely learning a ton. And then you also have an organic way of promoting the series, again, and again and again. So even if you feel like you didn't do so great with the first episode, you learn some things. Yeah, two, three, four weeks later, you put the second one out. And I basically tell people that what you need to do is, you're promoting the second one to the readers who have already read the first one. But you also have the opportunity to then go back to all new readers that haven't heard about it and be like, Okay, here's episode one. So if you didn't pitch episode one, the best that you could have the first time, you work on it for that second time. And you're like, oh, wait, it's when I share these tropes, or when I like, share this aspect of the story, that's what gets people to buy. And then when the third episode gets out, you're like, okay, now I got my groove. Here we go, you know.

[KARLI]  Nice. That's cool. I hadn't thought about it like that. But that makes so much sense.

[BRITTANY]  Yeah, I mean, there's the opportunity to do it, you know.

[JAMIE]  Yeah, 'cause even in traditional publishing, they re-market books.

[KARLI]   All the time, rebranding.

[JAMIE]  All the time. New covers—

[KARLI]  Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE]  Rebranding, re-marketing.

[KARLI]  It's a totally natural and normal thing in the, I mean, in most industries, but in the publishing industry, and like, you're just, you're learning how to do it in really quick succession.

[BRITTANY]  Right. Kind of truncating the process.

[KARLI]  Yeah.

[JAMIE]  I cut you off in the middle of your eight.

[BRITTANY]  Yeah, I just got like two more. Oh, no, three more. So the next one is you can build reader momentum and engagement. That's what I was talking about before. And that's what I was really excited about. Like I said, you can be rapidly releasing, which can mean a bunch of different things. So for example, like I did every two weeks, but some people do like once a month or once every couple of months. So it doesn't have to be like, oh my gosh, I need to do every two weeks because honestly, that was a lot. [all chuckle] It was it was effective, but it was a lot. The idea is to have consistency and to grow engagement as you go. You can also potentially get reviews faster, potentially, because people are reading them faster. Actually completing reading the story. I don't can't tell you how many books I started reading and just never finished reading. So I never reviewed. But if I read something shorter, it's like, okay, it's fresh. You know, I got it done. And oh, it's they're asking me to review. I can do that. You know, the last one I'll just say is, you have the potential to have multiple products to sell, not just one novel, and to even upsell. So for example, you don't have to just write serials, you can write a serial like spin off of your main series that kind of gets people back into the world as you're working on the sequel, you know, stuff like that. So you can partner it with larger fiction. And for me, one benefit I saw is, I released ebooks first only because they were getting rapid relea—that word is hard—[all chuckle] rapidly released. And, and so like if people are getting paperbacks like they could be getting them in the mail, by the time the next episode came out, so that wasn't going to work. So I was like, we're just gonna do ebooks, a lot simpler. And then I came out with a wrap-up, a bind up of all the episodes as a paperback, a few months leader, and I actually had some people, they had purchased the ebooks, and now they purchased the paperback because they want it on their shelf, and they want to reread it. And so I got like double sales by some readers, you know. And so there's the potential for that.

[KARLI]  Yeah, that's cool. I, because I wound up I got the ebook of the first one. And then I had a bunch of life stuff come up, and I couldn't keep up. So then I was like, oh, man, I need to go back. And then you announced that you were doing the paperback and I am a very, like, I would rather have the physical copy girl anyway. So I was like, oh my gosh, yay, so then I got to get the—so I liked that you did it both ways.

[BRITTANY]  Thank you.

[JAMIE]  It's, it drives me nuts when I can't get a paperback of something.

[BRITTANY]  I know. And it was, honestly, it was a sanity thing because I was just like, I don't think I can do both for all six. And plus, they're like skinny-minis. Some people still asked for them. So like, I'm actually kind of thinking about now like, maybe I do them.

[JAMIE]  Yeah. Since you have the art.

[BRITTANY]  Yeah, right. You know, like, why not? It's not that much more to like, create a cover. And then it could potentially get more sales because people want like the full collection of mini stories. So like, okay.

[KARLI]  Absolutely. If you have the requests coming in anyways, and the readership and yeah, people like to have things—I mean, I as a as a, as a book collector, you know—I like to have things where it's like, well, I mean, it's a series I'd like to have, you know, the series, but if there's like a compendium then I want the compendium too and like, you know, so...

[BRITTANY]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  Makes a lot of sense. Cool.

[BRITTANY]  Multiple products.

[JAMIE]  Right. Revenue Streams.

[BRITTANY]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  Make that paper. [Brittany chuckles] Love it. Okay. So, you know, we talked a lot about the good stuff, but what about challenges? What are some of the challenges that you have encountered along the way with publishing serials?

[BRITTANY]  Yeah, definitely not as well known of a format. So there are like six main hurdles, I think I found, but I was able to, like, kind of overcome them in certain ways. So I'm gonna share a little bit about that, too. But the first big one was serial education, like, people were like, wait, serial killer? [Karli laughs] Like cereal, like I eat in the in the morning? Like, what is this serial? And I'm like, no, no. So I kind of had to, and that was part of like, my pitch too, of like, this is what a serial is, and kind of marketing it. As you know, everybody loves TV shows, right? You love when, like, new stuff is coming out on a frequent basis, you get to engage with me as it's coming out. So I got, kind of overcame that by sharing it. Doing a video about it, doing posts about it, answering questions about it. But that was definitely like a thing of like, you know, usually people are like, here's my novel, and people are like, I go buy, you know,[Karli chuckles] like, here's my serial series. Wait, before I buy, what is that?

[KARLI]  Yeah, having to educate your audience in order for them to get drawn in, instead of just being like, I did this thing, and then people not understanding it. So then they don't go for it, because they don't understand it. And there's so much out there. So it's like, why, why go for the thing that you don't understand when you can understand this? Yeah, that could definitely be a struggle.

[BRITTANY]  Yeah. Especially with readers that don't have direct engagement with me that just find the books too. You know, I had to figure out like, on the sales page, like, what do I say, that kind of explains. Because they can see the page count and stuff? Like, why is it shorter? You know, like, what, what is this? You know, so I looked at some serial authors and like, kind of some copy that they used, you know, to kind of explain it, I was like, oh, that makes sense. Okay, can I, you know, kind of rephrase this a little bit and use that as well. And so like figuring out how to say that and then being like, here are the benefits. So the second hurdle was that they were shorter books. And that's not everybody's favorite, but I really drove home like, hey, they're gonna come out quickly. So you're gonna get a new book quickly. And if you'd like to rack up how many books you read in a year, [Karli laughs] like your Goodreads list or whatever, hey, you're gonna read like a novel length thing that you're gonna get to tick off like six books. [Jamie and Karli chuckle] So different things like that you can really like kind of pull out I also had only ebooks only to start, right? So I had to explain why only ebooks kind of said that before of like if I did paperback too, like they wouldn't be able to keep up with the reading pace. And—but I did promise that paperback bind up later, which obviously that worked on Karli. [Karli chuckles] And a month later again, I got to put up that paper Back and re-market the whole series all over again. So not only did I sell paperback versions, but I sold the ebook series as well, because there were people that hadn't heard of it the first time around. Then there was pricing. So that was a hurdle of like, okay, these are shorter books, they, you know, in my mind, I'm like, I should price them a cheaper price. But you know, a lot of books nowadays are being priced, especially like ebooks, like $3.99, $4.99, $5.99. Like those are actually more typical now. So like a $2.99 book is actually feasible, I think, for shorter books. And I really haven't gotten any complaints from readers because each story really has its own arc and feels full, even though it is a shorter read. And so I've kind of kept it there. And at that $2.99 mark, you still make I think it's 70 or—70 or 75% of the royalty and if it's under that, you make like 35%. So um...

[KARLI]  They really want you to charge that, or more. [Brittany and Karli chuckle]

[BRITTANY]  Exactly. So that was kind of my pricing strategy to get through that. The other hurdle I said before is paying for multiple book covers. So that's maybe you know, a heftier kind of price upfront, but you can get a deal. And I found an illustrator, who was able to give me a very reasonable price for all the illustrations. Then I did the typography myself. So that was where I kind of saved money there. And again, I only purchased ebook covers, I didn't have to purchase paperback wraps, which usually authors do at the same time. And I only had to purchase one paperback wrap for the full bind up, at least initially. So different, different things to consider. And I think the last thing I'll say that was a hurdle is just rapid release burnout is definitely a thing. And even though I had the full series, developmentally edited, copy edited, I was still doing some proofreading or having other people proofread. As the episodes were coming out just to like—I thought it was going to be these little like tweaks here and there. And most of it was, but there were some scenes where people like found something that was like, you know, this should really get fixed or clarified or whatever. And I'm like here, like, I just want to market the books and like, I'm going in, and I'm not just fixing, like spelling errors. I'm like fixing some other things, I was really glad that they caught. So I would say that if you're going to try this, I personally think that you know, you want to have everything done, done, done, before you start [chuckles] publishing or have longer periods between releases.

[KARLI]  So you have that time though, that makes so much sense. That was my biggest when thinking about how it would feel for me, I think that's my biggest like, oof that would be so rough is the pacing of it and the timing and making sure that everything is set up. So that you're not, like you were saying, in the midst of things. 'Cause I did beta reading for my story one time that I was not finished editing when I started releasing the beta stuff, and then I thought it'll be fine, I'll be able to finish. And then it got down to crunch time at the end and I had fallen behind. And it was so overwhelming, I could imagine that feeling [chuckles] all over again. And it just does not sound fun. So it would definitely require a lot of organization to stay on top of that, so that you don't fall behind. [chuckles]

[BRITTANY]  Definitely. And it was like I had already promised like a release schedule, you know, and I had already started putting pre-orders up and like all this stuff. So it's like I have to deliver on this.

[JAMIE]  The train has left the station. We're going. For good or ill, this is happening. [all chuckle]

[KARLI]  It’s one thing to tell beta readers, it's going to be another week. It's quite another to have marketed a release, and then be like, oh my God.

[BRITTANY]  Yes, yeah. So there were a couple of times where it was like, I was just fixing little things, but I was still fixing the document before uploading it. Like just a couple of days before it was supposed to release. And I was like, I can't I can't handle this. So I would definitely put more space between releases, if possible, or just make sure you have everything, everything done. And that's kind of something I talk in the course too, to my students, of like, give yourself more time than you think. Even if you're releasing a book, a new book, like every two or three months, like that's so fast, so in comparison to like, you know, traditional books, you know, some some indie authors are like, you know, they're getting out a book, like, still every couple of weeks somehow, but um...

[KARLI]  I feel like that's the—I mean, that's very fast to me, but indie seems to have a better handle on releasing more rapidly than traditional which, for I think obvious reasons, but that gives you the freedom to be able to adjust and either go a little faster or a little slower based on what you need in that season of life.

[BRITTANY]  Definitely.

[JAMIE]  So now you're just getting back from, you know, having a baby and becoming a mom. I can't imagine.

[BRITTANY]  I couldn't either. [Karli laughs]

[JAMIE]  So you're getting back into your professional life back in the saddle again, you have the course coming out, what else have you been up to?

[BRITTANY]  Yeah. So I obviously want to get back to writing, that's a huge thing. You know, it came out rapidly releasing the first season. And now it's like, been a year actually, about since like the first episode started releasing. So I want to keep the momentum going. But obviously, [chuckles] it's gonna take me a little bit. I have a outline for four books, four short books, that will be part of the second season. And in my mind, that means storyline will be over at that time, I might do some side stories, potentially. But I would love for those shorter stories to be a little bit longer than the other ones, because there were six in the last one. So four for this one. And then for them to be rapidly released as well. But maybe once a month, or something like that. And to try that, try that out. And I think it'd be fun too to like, compare it. And to go back to my students too and be like, hey, like this was, I mean, it's with a sequel season. So it is going to be different than like, you know, coming out with a brand new one. But I feel like I'll learn a lot that I can share with my students and like kind of use going forward.

[KARLI]  For sure.

[JAMIE]  And that's awesome, too. Because then you have sell through on the original series once again.

[BRITTANY]  Yes. Talk about the original series, and people can get in on that. And it won't take them that long to get through that in order to then join us for the second one.

[KARLI]  Yeah, so I was going to ask if I was in the same universe. It's—so this—the first season, it's complete On Wings of Ash and Dust like that arc is complete and your—is it new characters? Or is that something you don't want to talk about yet?

[BRITTANY]  Sure. So I'll just say that the the first of the the physical paperback novel that you have with the six episodes, it ends, completing the competition that goes into a new level of the story. So there's a lot of like, under the story kind of things: mystery and like a subplot kind of going on as the competition is happening, that becomes very important by the end. Competition wraps up, that's kind of wrapped up in there. And then it leads into okay, season two is going to be like this bigger thing that I'm not gonna spoil.

[KARLI]  That makes me—that makes me very excited.

[BRITTANY]  Good. Yeah.

[JAMIE]  It's very much like a sequel.

[BRITTANY]  So it'll be the same characters, but they'll be kind of going through the next level of their arc with the next progression of the story.

[JAMIE]  Ultimately, when it's finished, it will be like a duology.

[BRITTANY]  Yes, yes.

[KARLI]  Cool.

[BRITTANY]  That is that is the vision. And of course you make plans, and then your characters kill the plan. [Karli laughs] So we'll see. [laughs] We'll see if it actually works out.

[KARLI]  As of now. That's the tentative plan. I see it. Okay. Very cool. That's exciting. You have an outline, and you're trying to work your way back into a writing routine, so that you can get going on that. Is that what I heard?

[BRITTANY]  Yes, yep. And so like Preptober is coming up, NaNoWriMo. Like, you know, the big dream is to be able to kind of get back to my outline; and make a more solidified kind of, you know, fast drafting plan, and then hit NaNoWriMo and try to get out as much of the first draft as possible. The other thing though, is that before I was turning this into a serial series, I was like, okay, like, let's trad-pub this story. And write a different story that is a serial series that I can kind of become a hybrid author. And this is a story that I like, so want to get back to as well. So I'm like, yay, I'm new mom with so much less time and I have two stories I want to work on. [all chuckle] But this one, just to tell a little bit about it. Because really fun is called “Sisters of the Shadow Wood.” And it's about three magical handmaidens who steal magical knowledge from the rich to give to the poor. So it's like this Robin Hood, kind of vibe. But they're also like kind of undercover. And these characters are each inspired by a different fairytale character. So Red Riding Hood, Cinderella's fairy godmother, and a female Robin Hood. And really great for readers who love the TV show Once Upon a Time, because it's not just them who have magical abilities and kind of emulate different fairy tale characters, but it's like their whole town has kind of been infused with magic. And the town is now figuring out like, okay, how do we deal with this?

[KARLI]  Fun.

[JAMIE]  Awesome.

[KARLI]  So you have a lot, you have a lot on the horizon. That's very exciting.

[BRITTANY]  Too much. [all laugh]

[JAMIE]  Preach.

[KARLI]  Yeah, I feel like that's like the creative struggle; where you're like, I have all of these ideas and like, what a great problem to I have. But then you still have to actually find the time to do the things. So.

[BRITTANY]  Right. And everybody's like, routine is great. And like just my son. He has no routine.

[KARLI]  Oh, yeah. Routine? What is routine? How old—how old? Is he now? Just a couple of months?

[BRITTANY]  Yeah, he's just about three months and he's wonderful just has no you know, predictable nap schedule or anything. So I'm just like, and I thrive on routine.

[KARLI]  Right? Once you get one, it'll change again. So, yeah, that's always fun.

[JAMIE]  Enjoy the next 18 years of your life. [all laugh]

[BRITTANY]  No one warned me. No, I'm just kidding.

[KARLI]  So do you have a Two-cent recommendation for us today? A recommendation, we call it the Two-cent recommendation if you hadn't gotten that far in the podcast.

[BRITTANY]  So I think I'm going to recommend a fast drafting course because NaNoWriMo is coming up. Why not? Actually Jessica Brody, who wrote Save the Cat Writes a Novel, she has her Writing Mastery Academy, where you pay like, I don't know, like $12 a month or something, you get access to all of her courses and all the webinars and all that stuff. One of the courses is a fast drafting course. And I think it's brilliant. And I'm super excited to implement it going forward. And she also has a revision course that I haven't given myself permission to get into until I'm at that stage of even though I really want to go through it. But if you're looking for something to like, give you practical things to like, really just get through a fast draft. I just think it's really good.

[KARLI]  I could probably use that right now, too. So.

[JAMIE]  Cool. Yeah, it's pretty exciting. Everybody knows us writers. The leaves change in them. We all are like: [chanting with increased volume as she goes] NaNoWriMo. NaNoWriMo! [all laugh]

[KARLI]  Yeah, the leaves don't even really have to change. I'm just like, oh, it's actually crisp this morning.

[JAMIE]  It must be time to write another frickin' novel. [Brittany laughs]

[KARLI]  Time for pumpkins and novels. [chuckles]

[BRITTANY]  Yes. Pumpkin Spice Latte, please.

[KARLI]  I don't really like those.

[BRITTANY]  [gasps] You don't?

[JAMIE]  Get outta here!

[KARLI]  [laughing] I know, right? I don't like pumpkin in coffee. I like it in tea.

[JAMIE]  Oh, I hate pumpkin in tea. [Brittany and Karli laugh] Ugh, why would you ruin perfectly good tea?

[KARLI]  Black tea with pumpkin and a little bit of like milk. Mmm. Delicious.

[BRITTANY]  Yes.

[KARLI]  Espresso. No thanks. Okay, you can find Brittany at her website and across all social media platforms, YouTube, etc. At Author Britney Wang. Her book, On Wings of Ash and Dust, can be found on Amazon. If you have the Kindle Unlimited—which I do and I have it on my phone—you can get it for free right now. It's very exciting. Brittany also has her Serial Fiction Boot Camp out right now available through her website. You can go check that out all the details are there. And Brittany, do you want to tell people about the challenge?

[BRITTANY]  Yes. So if you jump in the course, right now, we are in Preptober, right? We are going to be doing a Preptober, plot your serial challenge, where I'm going through the course with my students in a discord group. And we are chatting through the material and also helping each other, as not only my students, but also me finish plotting our serials so we can be ready for NaNoWriMo. So if you need that extra incentive and community and encouragement, obviously you can purchase the course at any time and go through it at your own pace. But if you want a community behind you this time around for NaNoWriMo, definitely get in as soon as you can.

[JAMIE]  Awesome. A lot has changed in the last six years. But I feel like what hasn't changed is, as writers we're all down here in the mud together. Like it's very much like we're all going through it. [chuckles]

[KARLI]  Yeah. Let's slog together.

[JAMIE]  And it'd be cool to have that community built up.

[KARLI]  Definitely. And you have a Discord linked into that.

[BRITTANY]  Yeah.

[KARLI]  That would be a big draw for me that like being able to actually like chat with people in the discord is huge.

[BRITTANY]  Yes. And the Discord is available all the time, no matter when you join. But I feel like it will be especially active during Preptober.

[KARLI]  Probably Preptober. And NaNo, like you'll have a ton of people talking, that'll be great.

[JAMIE]  That's awesome. A lot of people who are always like, how do you build that community? And there—there you go. There's a great way.

[BRITTANY]  Right? And then as people publish their serials, it's a great place to to like network and be like, oh, we write the same genre. We come up with serials in the same genre, like, let’s, you know, do something together.

[KARLI]  Yeah, ask questions and do things together, absolutely. Very cool. Thank you so much for joining us. We had a great time asking you all of these questions. Thank you for all of the info and a great chat.

[JAMIE]  Thanks, Brittany.

[BRITTANY]  Thank you. So much fun.

[KARLI]  Thanks again for listening, internet friends. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter. Our links for our social media and our website are found in the description of this episode. We've got a newsletter that comes out at some point eventually again, and that's all folks. [Brittany laughs]

[JAMIE]  Talk to you later, internet friends.

[KARLI]  Bye.

Listener Q & A  - Transcript

[KARLI] Is this burning sensation normal? [Jamie chuckles]

[JAMIE] Your number one question. Lots of people asked it?

[KARLI] So many. No, just one and that was enough for me because that is specifically why I put what—what are your burning questions because I really wanted somebody to ask. [laughs]

[JAMIE] I'm always there to come through [chuckles]

[KARLI] That folks, is my—[laughing] my sense of humor in a nutshell. I really appreciate you looking out for me.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] I'm just mainlining this coffee in the hopes that it will uh, make me have coherent thoughts.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Do that.

[KARLI] Welcome back to The Act Break podcast where we definitely know what we're doing.[JAMIE] All the time.

[KARLI] [laughing] All the time. Some of the time, most of the time, part of the time, it's fine. It works out in the end, somehow. We get episodes out. So yay us. I'm Karli. And I'm... [sighs]

[JAMIE] Okay. I just want everybody to know that when I confirmed the the time with Karli, when I looked at it this morning, it said read, 1:38 AM. [laughs] So I am feeling Karli's been up a little bit late. [laughs] Might be a contributing factor.

[KARLI] I have nothing—yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday was the mechanic's first day off, in like a month, we lived it up.

[JAMIE] Exactly. I'm just saying. [laughs] These are all contributing factors.

[KARLI] I'm not saying that I regret it. But I'm not not saying that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, got it, got it.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And I'm Jamie. I am a speculative fiction author who nobody really has that many questions. I had very few. And most of them were jokes. [laughs]

[KARLI] I like it. I like it. We decided to do a Q&A. So on our social media, we put up a ask us anything. And you guys asked us a few questions. And so we're going to endeavor to answer them in a semi-entertaining way. Do you want to start us off with one of the questions that you got?

[JAMIE] Let's see. Well, I have very few.

[KARLI] I mean you said that.

[JAMIE] I don't know if maybe we should be like um—

[KARLI] [laughs] How few is very few?

[JAMIE] I think, I think in total real questions, I got maybe three. My favorite question. Number one favorite question is, Who do you think you are? [both laugh]

[KARLI] I love that. And whoever sent it is my favorite.

[JAMIE] I know he was being facetious, but I'm gonna answer it anyway.

[KARLI] Oh good.

[JAMIE] Which I didn't prepare to do. So. [Karli laughs] Who do you think you are? I feel like that's the existential question of 2022. Who do you think you are?

[KARLI] Right.

[JAMIE] What narrative do you tell yourself, about yourself, that paints the picture of what your life means?

[KARLI] Listen, that's between me and my therapist. [both laugh]

[JAMIE] And we said asked me anything. We did not say that we would answer.

[KARLI] [laughing] Correct.

[JAMIE] I feel like I answer that question every day, or every podcast. This is who I am.

[KARLI] This is who I am.

[JAMIE] This is the very carefully cultivated image that I [laughing] personify to the outside world. There's a follow-up question to that. Where do you find the audacity? [laughs]

[KARLI] Oh, I don't really have to dig down that deep. Surprisingly. I thought that I would have to dig down deep to have the audacity for this sort of thing. But it actually comes easier than I thought.

[JAMIE] It just materializes. You don't even have to reach for it.

[KARLI] I have so much audacity.

[JAMIE] It's true. I've seen it in person. [Karli chuckles] It's egregious. [Karli laughs] All right, real questions. You go.

[KARLI] Okay. We'll start out easy. We got a lot of questions about beverages.

[JAMIE] Really?

[KARLI] We did. We got, we got a lot of people wanted to know things about beverages. Let's start with, what is your favorite beverage of choice while writing?

[JAMIE] In the morning, it's coffee. And in the afternoons, it would be iced matcha lattes.

[KARLI] Mmm. I could agree with those. It depends on the weather for me. I'm a very—it's a very situational thing. First thing in the morning, obviously coffee, but sometimes tea.

[JAMIE] And I try not to drink like a lot of caffeine, like on the regular, like one cup of coffee. But if I'm drafting like heavy drafting, all the rules are out the window.

[KARLI] Copious amounts of caffeine.

[JAMIE] However much you feel like you need to just keep going.

[KARLI] That's right.

[JAMIE] Oh, or a nice Thai iced tea.

[KARLI] Oooo. We need to go get Thai.

[JAMIE] Like, now?

[KARLI] I'm hungry.

[JAMIE] Can we be done?

[KARLI] Okay, we'll be back later guys. [Jamie laughs] Speaking of things to eat. What's our favorite writing snack?

[JAMIE] I like to get like the, the popcorn, like a bag of popcorn, like pre made popcorn. I don't know why I like it better than freshly popped poppedcorn.

[KARLI] I like that stale—

[JAMIE] I love processed food.

[KARLI] Slightly stale and processed with just as sprinkling of MSG,

[JAMIE] Preferably kettle corn. Because—well, I mean because you know, popcorn is slightly better than like chips. But if you cover it in sugar, [both chuckle] then then it's really good. Then I really love it. [both laugh] But I like to have something that's like you can eat a fair amount of it without it being like, super heavy. Because if I'm snacking while I write, I'm pretty mindlessly snacking. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah, I am similar. I want something that I can continue to pop in my mouth as I go because I'm going to be sitting there. I like popcorn too, Goldfish crackers.

[JAMIE] Because its what's around.

[KARLI] I mean it's readily available. Only one of my kids seems to enjoy it and only occasionally but I still buy it at Costco because why not? I'll eat it. You know, it's become a problem, lately especially because I grab—they're like the snack packs that are supposed to go in their like lunch boxes or whatever—and I don't go out and just grab one. I'm like, I'm gonna have to get up and come out here again because I'm going to have two or three bags. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Yeah, they're for children. And I'm an adult. [laughing] I need an adult sized portion of Goldfish.

[KARLI] I like the way you think. [laughs]

[JAMIE] I also, my other one is—because I kind of have a problem—and this is not just writing related but chips, potato chips. I love crunchy snacks.

[KARLI] Salty snacks.

[JAMIE] I could eat like a whole bag of potato chips in one day if I wasn't careful.

[KARLI] I don't buy potato chips for that reason, because I will eat it all in one sitting.

[JAMIE] I have a chip problem, you guys. I'm sorry.

[KARLI] Pretzels, chips, potato—Lay's potato chips, specifically like [sighs]. We have more beverage questions. What's your favorite coffee and way to drink it?

[JAMIE] I don't know. I don't feel like I'm that specific. I do have to have some sort of sweetener or creamer in my coffee but like: cold brew, sure, latte, sure, coffee with cream, sure. It's—I'm not, I'm not that picky.

[KARLI] I am someone I like just like coffee but I do have a favorite and that is an extra dry cappuccino with a little bit of raw sugar in it.

[JAMIE] Fancy girl.

[KARLI] I feel so bougie that I have an espresso machine and can make that for myself.

[JAMIE] You are so bougie, bougie-est. When was the last time you actually made one of those for yourself?

[KARLI] Oh, like a year. [both laugh]

[JAMIE] Thank God you have that machine.

[KARLI] My annual cappuccino, okay. [Jamie laughs] Anyways, moving right along. Favorite alcoholic drink.

[JAMIE] I don't drink much.

[KARLI] We differ there.

[JAMIE] We do. Opposite sides of the spectrum. I because I don't like hops. I don't like beers. Ugh. Beers? Gross.

[KARLI] Sad, sad.

[JAMIE] So if I'm gonna drink anything, if it's like a summer time thing and I'm by a pool, I maybe want a cider. If I'm gonna have like a drink with a meal. Like steak. I'm gonna have an old fashioned. You?

[KARLI] Um, I'm like Nick Miller. I'll have an alcohol.

[JAMIE] I need an alcohol! [Karli chuckles]

[KARLI] I do love a good old fashioned. I don't know, I just, I like well crafted drinks.

[JAMIE] Yeah, sometimes what drink you want is gonna depend on your meal. There's different times call for like a margarita.

[KARLI] Or gin and tonic, so long as there's lime in it. So let's move away from the beverage portion of this podcast. It's been [Jamie laughs] ten minutes.

[JAMIE] [silly voice] We're a writing podcast. Blah.

[KARLI] You know, those are important. We have already answered the important questions, obviously. But there are more. More, more important questions.

[JAMIE] More, more important questions. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] More importanter.

[JAMIE] Let's do the more, more ones.

[KARLI] More, more. Okay. Do you have a more, more one?

[JAMIE] This is a great question. What have you both learned about yourselves since The Act Break podcast started?

[KARLI] I kind of wish we had gone over these so I had time to like think and give a really good answer. Instead, you're just gonna have to get whatever pops in my head.

[JAMIE] I think two things stand out to me, you can really learn anything. We're very lucky to be in a day and age where you can go on the internet. And you can basically find out how to do something, any—in any field. Whether you know, you're good at that, [chuckles] that's totally a different thing. But the information is out there. I know, that's not something I've learned about myself. But that's like, I didn't really put that into practice. But I've really learned that I love [chuckles] organization and schedules, which is pretty obvious, I guess, if you know me, but I didn't think I was capable of this level of organization that I've reached since starting. It's definitely grown my skills with time management, grown my skills as a producer. And I think I've just, I'm like, oh, I can rise to more occasions than maybe I was pushing myself to before.

[KARLI] Nice. Um, it must be so fun for you to try to manage me, who, I have reached an all time low in time—[laughing] in time management.

[JAMIE] [chuckling] Oh, man.

[KARLI] Well, maybe not all time. But no, that's funny. You have learned that you can apply yourself to learn anything, I guess mine would be. I didn't think that I was going to be as comfortable doing this. I've really learned how to be more comfortable in my own skin, doing this and just having opinions and voicing them and being willing to be wrong and learn new things. It's, it's been good.

[JAMIE] Nice. That was such a fantastic question.

[KARLI] Yeah it was.

[JAMIE] Thank you, listener.

[KARLI] [whispers] Thank you. [normal voice] All right, another podcast question. How has podcasting helped you as a writer?

[JAMIE] I think that through the course of different episodes, we choose to like talk about things, and I research them even more in depth than I ever had before. And so just through having conversations about them, and then doing that research, I feel like I've learned about specific tropes or aspects that we've talked about throughout the the two seasons.

[KARLI] I have learned how to challenge my own perspective. I don't know really how to elaborate on that. Except that I feel like because of the podcast, I am looking at things from angles that I hadn't before.

[JAMIE] I think the other thing that is come from the podcast is when we talk to other people, we have guests, that kind of helps when you're surrounded by creative people. It kind of lights a fire under you sometimes.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I mean, the fire burns out pretty regularly, but [Karli laughs] then it reignites

[KARLI] Well, and different guests have different ways of looking at things and different approaches. And yeah. Okay, this one. The audacity of this one, what's the life schedule you aspire to?

[JAMIE] The dream, right? That's what we're talking about here?

[KARLI] It’s, it's an aspiration. So.

[JAMIE] Hmm. I want to wake up in the morning, and have a beautiful woman bring me coffee. No, I'm sorry. I'm describing my husband's life. [Karli laughs] No, I want to have a leisurely coffee in the morning in a quiet environment, which luckily I already have. And then I want to write or do creative type work for a solid four to five hours. Have somebody bring me lunch. [laughs]

[KARLI] For real.

[JAMIE] I mean, if it's aspirational, I mean—

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Why limit ourselves?

[KARLI] Go big. I love how—[laughing] love how we say, go big and we're like, I just want somebody to bring me a sandwich. [laughs]

[JAMIE] [dramatic voice] Just bring me a sandwich, please. [normal voice] Then maybe work for like another two hours, and then be done for the day. That would be—that'd be glorious. I basically just want to be able to treat this like my day job.

[KARLI] But what about like your free time? Like like fun, fun things like you know life schedule, not just work schedule.

[JAMIE] Oh…

[BOTH] Life schedule.

[KARLI] Like, what else is included in there for you?

[JAMIE] When I'm done working, I go to my private jet. [laughs]

[KARLI] Alright, now we're getting to it. Now we're getting to it. [laughs]

[JAMIE] I'm sorry, I'm sorry. No, what is yours? Tell me. Tell me what I'm supposed to be thinking. [Karli laughs] I'm aiming too low. [laughs] The bar is so low for me right now.

[KARLI] I'd like to work like half of my day, go for a nice walk. And then do whatever I want. I don't know.

[JAMIE] See, it's hard.

[KARLI] Video games. Go for a hike.

[JAMIE] It's almost like the question was, how do you be happy? What would make you happy? And then we're [imitates stupid voice] I don't know, sandwich?

[KARLI] I mean, you're not wrong.

[JAMIE] I know, we were just too hungry for this today. Anyway, let's go to the next question. [laughs] Okay, I have some other different questions about our work. Oh, what is your wildest success dream moment you can imagine in your writing career?

[KARLI] Having an author that I, like, respect and admire, read my work and like it.

[JAMIE] That's a good one. You want a blurb from Neil Gaiman?

[KARLI] I mean, uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'd take that, you know, if he was offering, that'd be cool.

[JAMIE] I guess I could take it.

[KARLI] I guess I could take that.

[JAMIE] Since it is the wildest success dream. Mine would be that I can write a screenplay for one of my novels, that then gets picked up, and preferably directed by like, Edgar Wright.

[KARLI] Ooh, yeah, that'd be awesome.

[JAMIE] Well talk about wildest—

[KARLI] I mean, they said wildest—like, I like that.

[JAMIE] Like, you know, you got the baseline of like, please just publish me to, like, make this into a movie to like, I would like to also be the screenwriter for it, even though I have no experience, screenwriting and I would also like to be present for what was happening, you know, the kind of things they don't allow any more.

[KARLI] Cast—be in charge of the casting. And... [both laugh] I mean, another one that I, I would find this very successful for myself, I would like to be able to travel and write. Like, if I want to set something in a certain location or something like that, be able to go to that place. And write there for, you know, six weeks or whatever. And just be able to afford that.

[JAMIE] Even better, somebody pays you to do that.

[KARLI] Oh, hell yeah.

[JAMIE] That's the that's the dream. [laughs] Your publisher's like, oh, that's where you want to write it?

[BOTH] We'll send you there.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] Yeah, yep. Also a thing they don't do.

[KARLI] Right.

[JAMIE] But you know.

[KARLI] Hey, wildest dreams here. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] All right. This is another question that—Karli's gonna be so upset—in a few words, what is your current WIP about? WIP is a work in progress—

[KARLI] [laugh groaning] Noooo.

[JAMIE] For anybody who does not know. And Karli just, just turned into ash and fell on the floor. [chuckles]

[KARLI] That is accurate. I am now talking pile of ash.

[JAMIE] It says in a few words.

[KARLI] In a few words.

[JAMIE] You don't have to—Karli's never been able to tell what her WIP is about in a few words, her entire life. [laughs]

[KARLI] I mean, seriously.

[JAMIE] It's a real challenge.

[KARLI] I will have her come over and I'll be like, okay, I have to talk this out. And I'm going to try to do it quick. Twenty minutes go by. And Jamie's like, we—we're just at the catalyst, Karli, you need to move on. [laughs]

[JAMIE] No, it's good. Because it's like, this is real, real nebulous. You don't need details, like my current WIP is going to be a road trip-esque, estranged best friends reconnect, while hallucinations plague one of them. [laughs]

[KARLI] [laughing] Sounds like a great time.

[JAMIE] I don't know if I want to say that. Yeah, obviously, it's a comedy.

[KARLI] [laughs] Ab—uh, duh.

[JAMIE] And we'll see how it goes.

[KARLI] Mine is a dungeon punk—No, mnmm, I don't want to say that. How do people do this? I don't understand. [laughs]

[JAMIE] You—you almost got it. Come on. You got it. Guess what? You can always change it.

[KARLI] Mine is, messed up fictional people trying to get their shit together [laughs] so that they can start a revolution because the government's bad. Yeah, with some fun magic in there somewhere. Maybe.

[JAMIE] Like a light sprinkling?

[KARLI] No, it's pretty heavy. Actually.

[JAMIE] Oh, okay.

[KARLI] It's really burdened with magic. [laughing] Burdened with glorious purpose. Okay, I'm done now.

[JAMIE] Okay. In your opinion. What's your favorite author's worst book? Can anybody really pick their favorite author?

[KARLI] It's hard. I I'm gonna need I'm gonna need Google. Um, okay. I mean, yeah, I would say um, the Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman. I enjoyed it. But compared to his other books that I love, it was fine.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Isn't that is that a children's book?

[KARLI] Eh, like Coraline is, which is not—I mean, it's—

[JAMIE] Like a creepy...

[KARLI] Yeah, it's creepy and I think Coraline's creepier though, which kind of makes me like it more. But yeah, like, again nothing wrong with it. It was good, but I like his other work way better. And so now that we've answered the more like intense existential questions, we can go into some fun favorites.

[JAMIE] I think it's funny that you're like the existential—there was one question about your WIP. It was just like, what is it?

[KARLI] I need to know, there was like life, life aspirations and like, you know, what have you learned about yourself to make you like a better writer. You know, things like that, that really, really have me sweating over. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] [imitating Karli] I didn't expect people to ask us questions about ourselves or writing, like our podcast is about. [laughs]

[KARLI] I was—I was honestly, just kind of hoping nobody would ask any questions. [laughs] No, that's not entirely true. I love to talk about myself.

[JAMIE] You should be thankful people ask questions, because if people hadn't asked questions, I would have asked you questions. [Karli vocally cringes] And they would have been even more intensely about your work.

[KARLI] They would have. And we would have just pretended like people actually asked questions.

[JAMIE] This is all a farce.

[KARLI] Okay, favorites. What are your top five favorite movies?

[JAMIE] All right, I'm not going to think too hard about it. And these are in no particular order. I'm gonna say The Matrix, The Secret Life of Walter Mitty, Back to the Future, Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and... [makes thinking noises with her mouth] maybe like Scott Pilgrim, I don't know. Those are five movies that I think are great. I can watch over and over.

[KARLI] Five of mine. Um, give me a second. I literally—I see the cover. I—it's one of my favorites. See, this is what happens when people ask me questions. I panic.

[JAMIE] Snatch.

Well, yeah, Snatch. I was I wasn't gonna say that first. But yeah, Snatch. Van Helsing. Wow, there it is. Okay, Snatch, Van Helsing. I don't, I don't know movies. I don't watch any movies.

[JAMIE] I've never seen a movie before.

[KARLI] I've never seen a movie before. No movies. Perfect Score. Warcraft and…The Saint. Anyways, um, okay. Top five books.

[JAMIE] This is so much harder than usual. [chuckles]

[KARLI] I know.

[JAMIE] Top five books. I'm gonna need my little I'm gonna need the internet. What is it called? It just went plumb out of my brain. Dark Matter by Blake Crouch, All Our Wrong Todays by Elon Mastai. I love the novelization of Red Dwarf. It's so good. I want, I—in fact, I'm probably going to need to re-read it this winter. [Karli gasps] The first Ready Player One. I know that's controversial. But I enjoy it. I've read it dozens of times. The second one can hurl into the sun for all I care.

[KARLI] I haven't read it yet.

[JAMIE] I don't know how many I've named so far. But I also love The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

[KARLI] Nice.

[JAMIE] Harry Potter. I mean, I'm kind of basic and I love it. No apology.

[KARLI] All right. Let's see. I'm gonna go with—I'm just trying to decide which Neil Gaiman book.

[JAMIE] It's just all five, are all just Neil Gaiman books. [laughs]

[KARLI] We'll just go with American Gods because that's, that's in my head. I love The Haunting of Tramcar 015. Elantris, The Heroes.

[JAMIE] What is The Heroes?

[KARLI] Oh, that's Joe Abercrombie. It's a stand alone in his First Law world. I like I can't—books. Why is this so frickin' hard? I'll go with Red Dwarf as well. Like, that is fantastic. I—

[JAMIE] It's so fun. I haven't read it in years now.

[KARLI] I haven't either. So maybe we need to do like a re-read this winter. But a buddy—buddy re-read.

[JAMIE] Buddy read.

[KARLI] Okay, there's more and even harder. Top five favorite songs.

[JAMIE] Oh, let's just do like right now.

[KARLI] Yeah, right now. Not necessarily like of all time.

[JAMIE] “Stick Season” by Noah Khan is one of my new favorites. “Sweet Dreams” by Borns. “Drivin’" by Willow Avalon. This is all very much like heading into fall. There's also an instrumental of “Sweater Weather” that I've been listening to on repeat. [chuckles] And of course, “I Lied” by Lord Huron and “Love Me Like You Used To” by Lord Huron, are my top favorites right now.

[KARLI] So we're just going with like things we've been listening to a lot right now.

[JAMIE] That's what I'm thinking.

[KARLI] I like, I like it.

[JAMIE] Right now because like you said, it's too difficult. All time is too hard. I would need to intensely sit down and study all, all of history of music.

[KARLI] There would have to be like a ranking system and… be a chart.

[JAMIE] All right, what are your top five?

[KARLI] Okay, so the ones—I mean, I have been listening to a lot of music right now and there's a lot of favorites right now. So this is gonna be really hard. But “Dopamine” by Siiickbrain. Always, “Dreams,” Fleetwood Mac. “It's All Right,” Mother, Mother. “Good F**King Music,” Solence. Sorry, you have to edit that. “C'est La Vie,” Weathers and “Insane” by Black Griff0n and Baasik. Those are—I don't know, that might be more than five. But those are the things—I've been listening to those on repeat lately.

[JAMIE] I wanted to —I'm like, oh, you said dopamine. I also enjoy “Dopamine” by Borns.

[KARLI] Oh, I love “Dopamine” by Borns. Give me all the dopamine. If you've got a song that has dopamine in it, I want it.

[JAMIE]  I need all the dopamine. And “Vienna” by Billy Joel.

[KARLI] Oooo Billy Joel. Okay. I had a Walkman. Billy Joel, was my jam. Flipped the sides, flipped it again, flipped it. I mean, just like back to back, man. Yes, it was a cassette tape. Yes, I am that old. I don't care. I loved it. I was like eight.

[JAMIE] I think a majority of our listeners—

[KARLI] Are that old.

[JAMIE]  Can relate. It's okay.

[KARLI] Yeah, I was like eight. And I just like walked around listening to Billy Joel all day long. Uh, yeah, that's it. That's That's all folks. [makes vague Porky Pig sounds] Thank you so much for asking us questions. We hope this wasn't too torturous for you. And thanks for listening. You guys are awesome. Really appreciate you. You can find us on social media. All of the links are in the description of this episode. And you can sign up for newsletter and transcripts and all of those things. It was fine. Not great, but fine. This is fine.

[JAMIE] This is fine.

[BOTH] [laughing] Everything is fine.

[KARLI] There are flames around me.

[JAMIE] Thank you so much, everyone.

[KARLI] Yes. Thank you.

[JAMIE] Talk to you next week.

[KARLI] Bye. [chortles]

[JAMIE] Bye.

Comic Book Talk with Josiah - Transcript

[JAMIE] It's always an exciting time when we're having a first time guest. Great to get to know new people, to discover new and exciting ways to embarrass ourselves. It's going to be so much fun. [laughing]

[KARLI] I was like, wow, this is like so optimistic of her. [both chuckle] And then and then it came. And I was like, yeah, that. That right there.

[JAMIE] You gotta wait for that sweet, sweet punch line [Karli chuckles] to really let you know how I feel inside.

[KARLI] So nerve-racking. It is so exciting. I am thrilled that we convinced our guests today to join us. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] We're—I wouldn't say we're the least professional podcast out there. But we are low on the list. [laughs]

[KARLI] I mean, no, we're high on the list of least professional.

[JAMIE] Oh, okay, yeah, you're right. See, I don't even know which way is up. [Karli laughs]

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Welcome back to The Act Break podcast where, through the wonder of a thing that I complain about almost constantly, we have the opportunity to talk to friends and creative people, talented people all over the world all the time. And that thing is technology. I'm constantly like, ugh, but it facilitates my entire life.

[KARLI] Gross. Technology.

[JAMIE] My entire social network [laughing] depends on this thing that I despise. I see the irony. Don't get me wrong.

[KARLI] She's not blind to it, folks.

[JAMIE] I just lean into it. I am Jamie, a science fiction and speculative fiction author, or at least that's what I tell people. And I am joined today by my co-host.

[KARLI] K.C. Ash or Karli. I am a professional... procrastinator and writer of many weird things that I don't let anybody read, ever.

[JAMIE] A smattering of awkwardness. Yeah, that's that's like your tagline. [chuckles]

[KARLI] K.C. Ash, a smattering of awkward. I feel like it's, it's a lot more than a smattering. [laughing] To be honest.

[JAMIE] It works. As the title of this episode has revealed. Today we are excited to have a first time guest, longtime internet friend, comic book connoisseur and creator and host of Josiah's Voice Podcast, Josiah Bradley. Welcome to the podcast.

[JOSIAH] Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here, y'all. It's wonderful to meet you too.

[KARLI] Right?! So excited to have you and like actually talk to you in real time.

[JOSIAH] Right?

[JAMIE] This is the theme of the podcast whenever we have somebody we haven't had previously, is we've known you for years. And now we're talking in person for the first time. [chuckles]

[JOSIAH] I know, it's kind of weird, but in a good way.

[KARLI] It's the perfect opportunity to actually get to talk to people that we've been messaging over the years.

[JAMIE] I just want to give this little recognition is Josiah and his podcast is one of the reasons that we have our podcast, because I very specifically remember listening to Josiah's and you read the ad for anchor. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna look into anchor. And then like, that was kind of the first few steps of us even doing our podcast. So thank you.

[JOSIAH] I didn't know that. Wow.

[KARLI] Creative people doing creative things. I guess I could try to be creative too.

[JOSIAH] Right? Like I did a podcast with friends back in like high school or something like that. And that was a long time ago. And then 2020, my parents started doing one. And then they were like giving me note—they were like, "Hey, we did this, this and this, if you want to—you know, I remember when you when Marcus, your best friend used to do it." So that's interesting that you say that because they, I feel like they helped me. I had no idea. Like, I just remember it felt like we both launched at the same time or something, everybody had all the time in the world. And so we're all being creative. And I was like, hey, Karli and Jamie have a podcast too, so that I'm honored. That's cool. I'm glad that, that had some type of positive effect.

[KARLI] And your podcast in general just has a positive effect. Like you are one of the most like, engaged and interested—like you are such a good interviewer and you are constantly like shouting out people's creativity. And it's such a cool thing.

[JOSIAH] Thank you. I try.

[JAMIE] So would you mind telling our listeners a little bit about yourself? What you do as a creative and what you're currently working on, that sort of thing? I didn't pose that question great. [all chuckle]

[JOSIAH] No, it's no it's okay. I'm trying to also recalibrate from being the interviewer to the interviewee. So...

[JAMIE] It's hard to say which is more difficult sometimes. Sometimes you're like, I wish somebody would just ask me a question and I answer it. I don't know.

[KARLI] It's hard to be put on on the spot, sometimes where you're just like, oh, I have to talk about myself, okay.

[JAMIE] Karli hates talking about herself. She would rather have her like fingernails ripped off. [Josiah and Jamie chuckle]

[JOSIAH] Oh my gosh, well, okay, here, let me know. Yeah, this is cool, because it's fun to hear you guys. Like do your thing. When you're doing it now to be a part of it. I'm like, now I'm being pulled into the vortex too, because it's taking me like 30 minutes to just answer the first question. [Jamie and Karli laugh] But it's just fun to be here.

[JAMIE] And, and then it'll come out and you'll be like, I swear it took way longer and because I just chop all this out. [Jamie and Karli chuckle]

[KARLI] I love the description of a vortex. That is accurate.

[JOSIAH] It's like in what is it Pirates 3, when it's like maelstrom! [all lauhg]

[KARLI] Yes.

[JOSIAH] So okay. My name is Josiah Bradley, been buddies with Karli and Jamie for maybe five years now on Instagram. Since I lived in Maryland, of the United States. I lived in Maryland, then I moved to their home state, but down south, I was in SoCal from 2019 to what's my math? 2022? Yeah, yeah, we're in 2022 now haha. So about two and a half, two and a half, basically three years. As Jamie had said, I love comic books. I got I met them virtually because of also my love of novels, you know, Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis, Walter Mosley, you know, I love books as well. And I've also published a book with my dad and trying to crank out another novel out of myself soon when the time's right. Because I'm a proper writer where I also procrastinate. The ladies know all about, they know all about that the writing is the hard part. While in LA, I got to realize or begin my dream to work in the film industry. So I was a production assistant, on set production assistant, for shows as well like, like Obi Wan Kenobi, Insecure, Blackish. Very blessed to have been able to do that. And now I live at the time of this recording, currently living in East Africa, the country of Rwanda in Africa, and just been relaxing with a new, yet familiar culture and still inhaling lots and lots of books, as well and tuning into The Act Break, when I'm able to as well. I hope I answered the question rapid fire, but that's a little bit about me.

[JAMIE] It’s fantastic.

[KARLI] It has been so fun to watch your like progression of how your move, your travels, and all the different like creative things that pop up for you. You've had a busy couple of years, like a really, really awesome, successful, epic couple of years. It's been really cool to watch you do all that.

[JOSIAH] Wow. Thank you. Yeah, you—when you put it in perspective, like that it has been, it's only been a couple of years, maybe three of a lot of a lot of busyness, a lot of highs and lows. But you know, we've gotten through as a family so far, thankfully, and just— I don't—just just trying to take life by the horns as best you can. I think the Rona kind of definitely inspired that as well. We moved in as much wisdom as, as we could. And I'm just—I think I said earlier, I just feel blessed feel, feel grateful, you know, tomorrow's not promised. And would I guess that that brings us here now, nerding out with you to about stories and comics. So I appreciate you saying that, Karli.

[JAMIE] And time goes by so quickly because I don't even feel like it was that long ago that I'm like, oh, Josiah is moving to LA that's so cool. And like listening to your podcast on like the episode where you actually talk about your road trip there. And that just doesn't feel like it was that long ago.

[JOSIAH] It doesn't.

[JAMIE] But it was it was three years ago.

[JOSIAH] Time flies.

[JAMIE] Yeah. It's just been really cool to watch you like get these different jobs and opportunities. And I'm always like, what's he doing now? Oh, that's cool. And I know that you are a big DC and Marvel comic book fan and so when we were developing this season, we wanted to talk about comic books. And we're like, well, if we're gonna talk about comic books, we need to talk to Josiah. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Obviously. Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] So thanks for agreeing to be sucked into the vortex. [all chuckle]

[JOSIAH] No problem.

[KARLI] We are grateful.

[JAMIE] So do you personally, do you feel like you read a lot of comics or do you feel like it's just like, eh, I read some comics?

[JOSIAH] I think—I think I do read a lot. I think I catch myself reading a lot actually. How to quantify that? I guess like [Jamie and Karli chuckle] Goodreads or look at my Libby app or something like that. But like, I was reorganizing and like I do I had to get rid of a lot of comics, I think, on the way here, sadly because of like some weight distribution with the luggage like I [sighs] I literally threw Batman Year One and something else—somebody forgive me, somebody—I hope you didn't lose like 5 million subscribers. [Jamie and Karli laugh] He did what?! We had to like get—we had to lighten the load, basically, there was actually a snafu because we later found out we didn't even have to do that. But um—[Karli gasps]

[KARLI] Oh that hurts!

[JAMIE] Which hurts so much more.

[JOSIAH] Exactly. I was like, what but it's like, but my parents were like, but you did what you had to do, because we know that wasn't easy, [all chuckle] because they know I love, I love books. And as you know, my dad and I wrote one together, so he knows I'm a big lover. So um, but yeah, I was looking at my stuff and I was like, ooo, I managed to bring a lot so I've got several like, I guess I've got like seven different versions of like, the first year of Superman. Like Superman is one of my favorite. My all time favorites like Static Shock created by Dwayne McDuffie, rest in peace. But um, Superman's like the one right and like, one of my favorite stories is like how all the different interpretations of how Clark Kent figured out who he was and decided on how he'd be a hero. And I love other versions too, but I'm like, well, that's seven graphic novels right there. Um, I have, I had Batman Year One and other books of Batman. I love like Tim's books by Tim Sale. And um, Jeff Loeb. Oh jeeze, rest in peace, Tim Sale. I think he'd died this year. He's an artist. He did a lot of really great, great work. The Dark Knight is partially or a big part of that is inspired by him and Jeff Loeb’s book. Batman the Long Halloween.

[KARLI] So yeah, you are a big—

[JOSIAH] So I'm a big—yeah, my bad. [imitates himself talking a lot] Yeah. [chuckles]

[KARLI] No, no, no, you're good.

[JAMIE] Well, no, you're good. Is this something you got to more as an adult? Or did you grow up reading Superman comics and stuff?

[JOSIAH] Grew up reading comics, I think first comic ever got was it Justice League? Comic, I don't know what it was called but it had like a Superman signal. And Batman was lighting it with the JLA. And I was like, Oh, cool. So I picked that up. And they I might have been eight years old or something, around that time, and then I just kept getting more into comics thanks to like, Batman, the animated series, Justice League on Cartoon Network, Static Shock on KidsWB, Spider Man, X Men on Fox Kids. [chuckles] You know, all that 90s kid stuff.

[KARLI] Yeah, we grew up in an era of a lot of really awesome animated comic stuff. That's what I grew up on. I didn't read comics as a kid. But I watched all that stuff. And I was really into it.

[JOSIAH] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I grew up with a dad who was [chuckling] obsessed with everything. All of those things. Superfan of Superman and Batman. Like so much Superman and Batman paraphernalia. We didn't have a lot of comic books, like physical comic books. We watched a lot of the cartoons. And maybe we did but I wasn't allowed to touch them.

[JOSIAH] Probably that one. [all laugh]

[JAMIE] Probably, that one. It feels right.

[JOSIAH] Kids, keep your grimy mitts off—

[JAMIE] Slaps my hand away.

[JOSIAH] My treasure trove of—

[JAMIE] Pretty much. [all laughing]

[JOSIAH] Grounded for life.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and nowadays, I don't read nearly as many comic books as I would like to but still do have some I enjoy. Like I'm big into X Men for some reason.

[JOSIAH] Nice.

[KARLI] For some reason? They're awesome. That's the reason.

[JAMIE] Karli, do you have any experience with, with the comic books of it all?

[KARLI] I am pretty much if the I don't know what I don't know about comic books and graphic novels and stuff. I did not grow up with them. Uh, like Archie. You know?

[JOSIAH] I would read those or the digest—

[KARLI] Safeway checkout lines.

[JOSIAH] Exactly.

[KARLI] Even then, like I—not really, not that often. I always liked Jughead. I don't really have that much experience. You know, I knew about them, but I just wasn't I was like, I don't know. But the first one I ever bought for myself was Ninja Turtles, because I was a huge Ninja Turtles fan as a kid.

[JOSIAH] Awesome.

[KARLI] And I get—I think it's technically considered a graphic novel. I don't know if that's different. But anyways, I Yeah. So I—and that was as an adult, in my 20s bought that for myself. And so I've only read a handful here and there. I enjoy the experience. It's definitely a completely different feel and medium than a novel. But I enjoy the experience very much.

[JOSIAH] Love it.

[JAMIE] One of my favorite things I'm gonna mention for anybody who doesn't know this about comic books, but Josiah you kind of already touched on it. One of the cool things about comic books is you can have one character and they can use that one character to do different storylines like like you were saying all the different story arcs of how Kal-El, or you know, Clark figures out who he is. So you can have all the same characters and all the same world, but many different versions of the story. Like think of it like the multiverse, all sorts of different story arcs. And I've always thought that that was really cool, because then you get different options. Like there are different options for origin stories, that's the same with like, Wonder Woman, all sorts of stuff where it's like, well, in this version, they have their powers because of this, and this version, it's something else, because I like that, where it's... nothing set in stone.

[JOSIAH] Yeah.

[JAMIE] You always find a new version of it. And I think that that's really neat.

[JOSIAH] I like that a lot too. Because you can get, you might like this more childlike version of Batman or something. Or you might like this more adult version, or campy or so it's like, it's like there's a little something for everyone.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[JOSIAH] I like that too.

[KARLI] Yeah, I have noticed that. And I think that that is a really neat thing.

[JAMIE] I have another question here. I just can't read my own handwriting. [Josiah chuckles] That's a running theme, as well.

[KARLI] It really is.

[JOSIAH] No, take your time.

[JAMIE] How would you guys describe the differences in experience between like, sitting down and reading a comic and sitting down and reading a novel?

[JOSIAH] For me, I think it's, one is, I think I can see the end, like literally, even even whether it's on Kindle, or I had a physical, you know, 24-48 page comic, or, like, 120 page graphic novel, but like, you can see where it where it ends in a lot of the visuals contribute to that, as opposed to like a novel where you can still see where it ends, but you know, it's like 200 to 350, you know, and it's like, man, that's a lot of words, [Jamie and Karli chuckle] on a page. And that's it. As opposed to, you can, you know, there's a lot of experience, not that there's not experimentation in prose, and novels and whatnot. But like, you can read a whole comic, with no dialogue, kind of like silent films back in the day. You know, it's just straight visuals. So you can kind of absorb a lot of information that way. For some reason, I just thought of like, even those. What's his name? Where's Waldo splash panels where there's like, in a sense, it's like you're just taking in a lot of information, and you might see something different each time you reread that book, whether it had dialogue or not. So for me, that might be one of the the differences where it's, um, I can still feel a little weary, um, not in a bad way. Just of like, like, you know, that hangover from reading a story, I can still feel it in a graphic novel. But it's like, depending on what I'm reading, like, I think the last time I experienced a page turner in prose might have been like, Kindred by Octavia Butler, I read that in like a day, or maybe I Am Legend, or Hunger Games. Like I love the way Suzanne Collins like, ends those chapters. But that's few and far between for me. I think what I'm trying to say is, with a comic book, I'll push myself to hurry up and read it. Because I'm like, I can't put this down.

[JAMIE] Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. Because that's what I was thinking. Like, the big difference for me is like, there's a more urgent sense of excitement when I sit down with a graphic novel.

[JOSIAH] I like the way you put that.

[JAMIE] Because, like, you know, the pacing is just going to be a little bit more... snappy.

[JOSIAH] For sure.

[JAMIE] It's gonna move and that creates, like a sense of excitement.

[JOSIAH] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Whereas there are some books that do that. But they're few and far between, like you said, like, otherwise, you know, when you're sitting down to read a book, I mean, I'm a slow reader. So I don't really expect to sit and read any book in one setting. [chuckles]

[JOSIAH] Glacial reader here.

[JAMIE] Me too, I'm like, it's like a 300 page novel, that's going to be like six different settings for me, at least.

[JOSIAH] Exactly.

[JAMIE] It's like, it's more of a buy in, it's going to slow unfolding. Whereas if I pick up a comic book, I'm like, I can, even a comic book takes me to settings, usually, but you know that a lot is going to happen really quickly. Or at least it's going to feel that way. Just because of the pace that you move through it.

[JOSIAH] Yeah, it's like the investment is you might have to invest just a little bit more in prose, depending on how you read. You know, it even kind of reminds me of like, even with movies, like I've got some friends and maybe I can't remember maybe y'all fall into this, like, I have some friends. They really can't do TV, but they can do, but they'll sit down and watch a movie, you know, for like an hour and a half, two hours or something like that. Or vice versa. Some people they're like, oh, movies too short. I want to be invested for maybe three to five seasons of a show or then vice versa, again, where it's the investment.

[JAMIE] It's like, how much do you want to buy in here? Like, how much time do you want to invest?

[KARLI] It's really interesting that you guys brought up the time investment and that your perspective is so different than mine, actually. Because I actually find it to be a lot longer experience for me, because maybe because I didn't grow up with it. I am fasc—and I mean, I'm not saying you're not fascinated—but the, it's such a sensory experience for me that I am not really accustomed to. And so my reading speed in a comic or graphic novel is much slower than a novel.

[JOSIAH] Gotcha.

[JAMIE] Oh interesting.

[KARLI] Like, much slower. So when I take the time to sit and read a comic, I'm like, it's time set aside. And like, I sit down, and I really focus because I want to, like absorb all of the art and like, sometimes I reread pages because I feel like maybe I missed something or whatever.

[JOSIAH] Me too.

[KARLI] Because it's just, yeah.

[JAMIE] I have a question, because I know that Karli actually has the omnibuses of Sandman.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah.

[JOSIAH] That's fire.

[JAMIE] So if that's one of the things you're sitting down, yeah, especially, I understand that because that is like a really complex comic book, like, the language in it. And even the art like the level of detail—

[KARLI] That one's next level.

[JAMIE] So, that makes a lot of sense.

[KARLI] Like next level for sure. But even with the like the Ninja Turtles one or like Deadpool or whatever. I like, take my time with them. And like, yeah, obviously, it's way faster than like when I sit down with okay, so like, when I sit down with the Sandman omnibus, it's like a whole ritual. I like put on the audio and I sit down and I'm like, it's a whole like..

[JAMIE] Does the audio and the comic book actually follow each other?

[KARLI] Kind of. So he obviously in the audio, he's like describing what you're seeing, okay, but I enjoy Neil Gaiman's narrative voice and style. And so I—it's a very interesting experience to do both. And I do recommend trying it. But yeah, like, even just like a normal comic or graphic novel. I mean, obviously, depending on how many pages is how fast I can get through it. And obviously, like novels do take me longer. So technically speaking, the time investment is more for a novel. However, it feels longer to me, like in the moment when I'm reading a graphic novel or a comic than a novel. And I am also a very fast reader. So that might contribute.

[JOSIAH] Oh wow.

[JAMIE] That makes sense because like, it's almost like you're giving more of your attention to it because you're letting it pull you in and more like you're you're used to reading. You read all the time, you read quick, but that you're focusing more in on.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JOSIAH] Okay, that might be it. That's very, that's super interesting, because it just made me think about like, I was like wow, she's putting on the audio, an opening, [Karli chuckles] I've never heard of anybody who not for a comic book acts, I'm like, oh, that's kind of cool. I didn't know, I didn't think that they might do that with Audible or something. Because I'm like, that's sort of two different things at the same time, but then I was like, but then when you're reading, you know, when you're reading a novel, in this case, it's like, you're doing multiple things, too. Because it's like, you're you know, if you don't have what's that thing, aphantasia, where you can't imagine things. If you don't, if it's not that you're not only reading words, but you're making it up as you're reading, which is kind of interesting. And I'm like, oh okay, no, it's—that's interesting that you do, you listen to the audio and read the graphic novel, it's like, no matter what you do when you're reading, there seems to be a lot of sensory things happening simultaneously to enrich that reading experience. That's cool.

[JAMIE] I, I'm really impressed that you knew the aphantansia.

[KARLI] I know, I was like—

[JAMIE] That's the word the word for it, because I was like, I had only recently heard about that. And I had no idea what the word for it was.

[KARLI] I always forget the word. I'm like, ah, that thing. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] I always wonder if those people enjoy fiction, or if they're just like eh.

[JOSIAH] I think, no because I have a buddy if our murder I think she has it or a low version of it or something. It came up once and I was like, oh, no way. Because I'd heard of it prior to her bringing it up and is there different levels so but she's a huge... she doesn't read a lot of comics. I'd given her like I give him my Iron Man comics when I was moving and stuff. But she does love like she is an MCU queen. She loves Marvel movies. She doesn't read a lot of comics. She's has been starting to get into them. But...

[KARLI] I could see where comics would be a really good thing for someone like that, because it provides you with that visual, whereas a novel, like you were saying, like you're you're having to like make up, like visualize what's happening while you're reading. And that might be, obviously more challenging for someone like that. So that's cool. That's interesting.

[JAMIE] I think comics are really kind of cool, for a couple of reasons. And in my head, comic books are kind of a bridge between a novel and film.

[JOSIAH] I feel that way too.

[JAMIE] They kind of bridge a gap. Because even though a novel like it takes a village, like you can't do it all by yourself, but for the most part, writing a novel is a pretty singular experience. And making a movie is a huge giant collaborative experience. And then with a comic book, you have a writer and an artist, and of course, everything after that for publication. But it's like, you have these three different mediums. That's like a Venn diagram,

[JOSIAH] Ah, that overlap. Yeah.

[JAMIE] Of what parts overlap. And I think that that's really cool, from a creative standpoint to look at, you know, how much what you create is solely your experience and how much you need to collaborate to make something that you just can't make by yourself.

[JOSIAH] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It's, it's like the beauty of collaboration. [chuckles]

[JOSIAH] It is. Yeah, I love how you put that.

[KARLI] I think it's interesting. You guys both thought it like that, because I wouldn't have thought of it that way. But you're right, but you guys are both like cinephiles also. [Jamie chuckles] So like that, that tracks that you guys would put that together.

[JOSIAH AND JAMIE] I love the movies.

[JAMIE] What is that? What's that app called? Letterbox?

[JOSIAH] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It's basically Goodreads. But for movies. I love that app.

[JOSIAH] Me too.

[JAMIE] It's supposed to be like a whole social thing. It's pretty much just like I follow Josiah, [Josiah laughs] and he's the only one I know on that app. But I use that app. I love it.

[KARLI] I got that app because of you, Josiah.

[JOSIAH] Oh I didn't know you had it.

[KARLI] I always I always forget to use it. [laughs] Because I'm terrible at it.

[JOSIAH] Just livin' life.

[KARLI] But I like that you share yours like on your Instagram stories. And I can like see what you're watching. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I love that movie. Or like, ooo, I haven't seen that yet. He liked it. I bet I'd like it. And I add it to my like list somewhere. I think I have things written down or I just add it to my queue or whatever. But I'm terrible at tracking it on that app. I should.

[JAMIE] I'll forget. I'll forget for a few months and then Josiah will post something and I'm like, Oh yeah, letterbox [Josiah chuckles] and then I get on and update all my stuff. See what Josiah has been watching. I just saw that you watched The French Dispatch, and I just recently watched The French Dispatch. [laughs]

[JOSIAH] You did? That's fire. What?

[JAMIE] Yeah, it made me want to watch all of Wes Anderson's movies.

[JOSIAH] That's been me like all week. I don't know. I don't know what I've What was I doing, something happened, and I was reminded to watch The Life Aquatic, with... how do you say his name Steve Zissou, I think is how you say it. And something reminded me to watch it. I don't know what and so I did. And then from there I was like, oh, yeah, well, what I what else can I okay— the rabbit hole, the vortex. [Karli chuckles]

[JAMIE] You know, if you don't know who Wes Anderson is, or his movies, go Google it. But if since we're talking about comics, it is funny because the way he does the art direction in his film has a very comic book-y feel.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It's very stylized. Like the colors are always like...

[JOSIAH] Very vibrant and specific. Right?

[JAMIE] Yeah, they're—

[KARLI] I don't know that I've seen any of his movies. I'm gonna have to go take to the Google's.

[JOSIAH] Yeah, check, check that out.

[KARLI] Adding it to my list.

[JAMIE] Yeah. So everybody, you know, check out a Wes Anderson movie, he's got a whole bunch of different ones. So I mean, you can pick and choose which one you think it would be better for you kind of along that same vein of the style of the art direction and his movies. Bring it back around comic books is what's cool about comic books, is because they have the visual aspect as well. They really can encapsulate like a whole mood and vibe that can bring in like that more immersive quality.

[JOSIAH] For sure.

[JAMIE] You know, if you if you are used to like a certain comic, or a certain character, picking up and seeing that art and like, how they how they use the colors and all that, it can really pull you in really quickly.

[JAMIE] Oh, yes.

[JAMIE] 'Cause you're like I know this. This is familiar, I love this.

[JOSIAH] I was suddenly thinking of like, Alex Ross. He's a painter. And you've probably seen his artwork and I can't think of an iconic one right now but he's he's a well known painter and does like these iconic portraits of like the Justice League and stuff and I just...

[JAMIE] Yeah, like like the very hero shots.

[JOSIAH] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Angle of them just looking majestic.

[JOSIAH] Very dramatic. I love that yeah, majestic. [Jamie chuckles] Or I thought about this other comic I recently read, called Gideon Falls, it was kind of this sci-fi, psychological thriller, horror comic. I'm forgetting the writer right now. But like, some of the things they were doing with color was amazing sometimes with like, minimal color, or like, with the motif of red being used a lot, especially like there's like a fill-in from another dimension and stuff. And like, you know, there would be like, his abode is called the black barn. And some of my favorite images was like, sometimes they just have a whole page at key moments in the story, where the whole page is just just sort of neon red. And then you'll have the black barn, like in the center of it, or some and it just—I'm not really describe—but it just, there's a lot of pop, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

[JAMIE] It's using its art to really evoke like a certain feeling.

[JOSIAH] Very powerful feelings.

[JAMIE] Like you said, at key pivotal moments.

[JOSIAH] Yeah. You just made me think of those.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I wrote it down. I'm gonna look that one up.

[KARLI] Yeah, I think that's a very interesting way to look at it. Because comic books have found a way to marry narrative style with, like, actual words, and art, and using color theory and all of this stuff, and merging them together to create this whole other experience that it's a very emotional, like sensory thing. It's a very, very interesting method of storytelling that I really would like to read more of them for my own, like personal standards. And like, I would like to read more of them, because hearing people talk about them like this, and like, man, I need more.

[JOSIAH] They're waiting for you.

[JAMIE] That's why a good public library can be really helpful. Because like, well, I do get a lot of my comic books from thrift books. Nice. So you get them used, you know, they're not always in the best shape, but they're pretty good. I haven't got them all yet. But I've been collecting all of the series that comes after the cartoon The Last Airbender, they have a whole—

[JOSIAH] Oh, they do? Yeah.

[JAMIE] Comic book series that continues. And so I have the first like, three storylines from that. But that also makes me segue into the other thing that I enjoy about comics is there's a lot of television shows, or movies that have a continuation in comic book form. Avatar, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel.

[JOSIAH] Firefly.

[KARLI] Ooo, I didn't know that.

[JAMIE] I don't know if you know the, the internet show Con Man. Yeah, Alan Tudyk.

[JOSIAH] I finally watched it. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yeah, they have a like, comic book from the show in that which is like a parody of Firefly called Spectrum. I have those comics. [laughs]

[JOSIAH] They have Spectrum comics?!

[JAMIE] They have Spectrum comics.

[JOSIAH] I love when they do that.

[JAMIE] And they're really beautiful, the whole art design. And it's also just kind of funny and meta, because it's like poking fun of itself. But I really like that because sometimes a show ends or gets cancelled. And sometimes you can find that in comic book where you're like, ah, now I get more of it. Yay!

[JOSIAH] Yes. 100%.

[KARLI] I have a question for you both. This, the whole, like, I should read more made me think, for those of us who didn't grow up reading them, I find it to be very overwhelming to know even where to start and what to pick up. What would your recommendations be for somebody who's new to the comic book experience? Like where to even begin? Because there's just so much out there. It's like, where do you even start? Like, even if you were to pick like a like Superman, like, where do you even begin? Because there's thousands, you know, so I think that that's one of the things that holds me back is I'm like, I don't even know where to start.

[JOSIAH] No, that's real.

[JAMIE] It is hard. [Karli chuckles] Because I I'm like, I've literally felt that because I wanted to read X Men comic books. And it is, it's like, where do you even begin? You can't begin from like the very beginning. One, because those are rare comics, you're not gonna be able to find them. And there's like a hundred storylines. So I would literally go online, and I was looking for the Hope Summer, storyline.

[JOSIAH] Oh cool.

[JAMIE] And so like, you have to mine that out. So my suggestion for somebody who'd never read comic books would be don't start with superhero comic books. [Karli laughs]

[JOSIAH] I agree.

[JAMIE] I'm sure not maybe not everybody feels that way. But it's it's too complex a field. Whereas if somebody was going to start a new, I would say find their comic books that are like stand alone collections. You don't have to get into like some crazy long series, and especially navigating through anything DC or Marvel is going to be really complex.

[JOSIAH] Tell her. [Josiah and Karli chuckle]

[JAMIE] Because I think a lot of people who only know the cinematic universe, think like, oh, it's really cut and dry. Also, those comic books are like, much more adult than people realize.

[KARLI] Oh yeah, they are. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] A lot of the time, like, especially DC and like [chuckles] relationships wise. So like, trying to understand all that is too much. Find some comic books that are standalone graphic novels. And that would be a better entry point, I think.

[JOSIAH] Yeah.

[KARLI] What about you, Josiah? What are your recommendations for that?

[JOSIAH] Yeah, I'd agree with what Jamie said, like, see if you could depend on your personality. But even then I find with the few people that have asked me, like, where should I start or something? I feel like there's this idea that like, you have to start at at the beginning, because I've even tried to give some friends like, like, do you want to, like find the story from that Batman thing? You know, cartoon that you saw? Do you want to find the correlating thing in the comics? How about we find that? But sometimes they're like, "No, I have to start at the be—the beginning." You mean 1939? I mean, okay. [all laugh] But there are DC archive books and Marvel essentials of those omnibuses as you guys mentioned, but you don't have to if you just want to read, what did I mentioned earlier? Batman the Long Halloween if you watched The Dark Knight, and that's based off of maybe three to four different comics, but if that really jumped out to you, particular storylines, if you ask the right friend, they might be like, um, most of that's in The Long Halloween. Or most of that's in Nightfall. But I also like so there's that if you can just find a storyline—I won't say writer because you probably won't know what that means. You're like, Wait, writer, what? There's more? To your point earlier about like, yeah, this—Stanley wrote this many of Black Panther. And, you know, Christopher Priest wrote this many black panther and Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote the—you know, that'll overwhelm, people saying. So if there's like, a version of the character or a song or some type of enduring storyline you've heard, if I can find, if we can find that together. Maybe you can start there. Otherwise, if that's too overwhelming, cuz you're like, No, I must start a hundred years ago. [Karli laughs]

[JAMIE] That's classic, Karli.

[KARLI] I mean... [laughs]

[JAMIE] She's all, "I gotta read them in order!" I'm all, you'll be reading these till the day you die, and you'll only be a quarter of the way through, [Karli keeps laughing] Just get over it.

[JOSIAH] Only a quarter of the way through.

[KARLI] I know!

[JAMIE] You know what would be really cool, is if there was a curated Netflix for comic books, where you fill out like a survey of what you're interested in, and they send you one, and then you send it back. And they send you the next one, like so you don't have to keep track of anything.

[KARLI] I want that. And then they can be like which—if it branches off, they can be like, which kind of idea interests you more and then you pick one, and then they send you that. I would love that, somebody do that please. [chuckles]

[JOSIAH] Or the next best thing is what your your comic book shop clerk tried to do? Because they oh, well, what characters do you like, or what—it's not exactly the same thing, because it kind of feels like... well, it is customer service, but it almost feels like when you go on a website and they have a little bubble that's like chat with us right now live. Kind of feels like that when you go into a comic shop.

[KARLI] Or even when we you know, the movie stores from when we were kids where there'd be like the employee recommendation section and stuff like that.

[JOSIAH] Right. Blockbuster or something.

[KARLI] Yeah, so, yeah—no, this helped a lot. I think even just hearing that, like, there's a Firefly, like, I probably go get that now. And read that because I love that story. I love those characters. So yeah, no, that was very helpful. Thank you. Appreciate it.

[JOSIAH] I want to kind of like what Jamie said, you went the indie route for a second there, Jamie, if you don't mind me touching on that right quick. Because I think a lot of people have done Firefly comics. I know Dark Horse that's a comic book company.

[KARLI] I did know that. [chuckles]

[JOSIAH] They did, like you might pick up Firefly by Dark Horse. And at the back of the book or if you go online or something, Goodreads or something, it'll say oh, more like this. And they might bring up Dark Horse so they might um, I don't know I'm kind of mixing genres and comic book houses right now. But like Rat Queens from Image. I love Image Comics. They do like Rat Queens, which is kind of a swashbuckling, dark adult, but endearing kind of like mythic quest type Lord of the Rings thing.

[KARLI] Dude, that sounds awesome.

[JOSIAH] Yeah, like that, you know, it's like this, this demon woman with this dwarf woman with this giant, you know, and they just go on quests and you know they're always trying to pay the rent and they get involved in all types of weird stuff. That's from Image. Invincible, if you watched Invincible on Prime Video about you know this dude who becomes a superhero like his dad and then it goes dark. Well, if you didn't know that's a comic book that would happen also be from image and it's like you can start from the beginning with a book like that because it's maybe a five to seven year old comic, I think.

[KARLI] Right. Not going back to the inception of comics.

[JOSIAH] Right. It's like, its creator—they call them oftentimes creator owned. Those types or like The Walking Dead you know, you don't have to go back 20 years, you know and it's like, oh, a zombie book and oh, it's in black and white. I mean, I love you know, rich, vibrant colors in my comics but hmm, the mood of reading this black and white dystopian thing, you know, or Gideon Falls, like I mentioned earlier. So creator owned is also a good route. If you're not going to mess with the big two, DC and Marvel. If you go more genre, like what is it you like to read? You know?

[KARLI] Yeah, genre based like you like I would go look for genre of books that, that makes a lot of sense.

[JOSIAH] Pirates and stuff.

[JAMIE] When you were listing all those out, it made me think how I'm like comics have always been like a huge market. But I feel like maybe now they're starting to grow in more of like a mainstream recognition. Because there are so many, super popular shows out now that are based on comics. Walking Dead, The Boys, Umbrella Academy…

[JOSIAH] I was just about to say…

[JAMIE] so many things started off as a comic.

[JOSIAH] Paper Girls just came out.

[JAMIE] I haven't watched it yet. But I'm—

[JOSIAH] That's an amazing series. I haven't watched it yet. I just read it.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's kind of like nice to be like, okay, I feel like comic books are going to be growing even more. All these things, that are coming from comic books. And then if people liked those then go out and you pick up the comic, because just like a novel will have more than the movie adaptation, you're gonna get more of that thing that you liked. And sometimes, they're going to be very, very different. [chuckles]

[JOSIAH] That's true.

[KARLI] Which we talked about a little bit last season, because we were talking about like adaptations and all of that. So yeah, I yeah, you're definitely gonna get a completely different experience sometimes.

[JAMIE] Is there any other comic book stuff we want to talk about?

[JOSIAH] Yeah so I’ve just got some exciting like titles and comic book companies, Black comic book companies, that I’ve just kinda been following for a while. I kinda feel like thanks to social media and the independent comic book space, some of which we’ve touched on, it just feels like more comic book titles and publishing houses keep coming up. So, I don’t want to forget like some like, Niobe: She is Life, created by Sebastian, I can’t remember his last name. But he’s partnered with the actress Amandla Stenberg, from like The Hate You Give movie adaptation, or like she played Rue—

[KARLI] Oh yeah.

[JOSIAH] In The Hunger Games. I think she was in, it was kind of a romantic movie where she falls in love with a guy for like a week, but she’s terminally ill or something—I don’t know. [chuckles] But Amandla Stenberg and Sebastian. If I remember right, you’ll have to look them up, but they founded a company called Stranger Comics.

[KARLI] Cool.

[JOSIAH] And their flagship title as I understand it—I’ve only read one issue but it was pretty cool, I should re-read it—it’s called Niobe: She is Life. It’s populated by, you know, a bunch of your classic, you know, elves and dwarves and monsters and magic, just featuring a lot of melanated protagonists and antagonists, main cast basically.

[KARLI] That’s rad.

[JOSIAH] They’ve recently partnered with Prentice Penny, if there are any Insecure fans out there. He wrote on the sit-com Girlfriends and he was the Showrunner on Issa Rae’s hit show Insecure. So yeah, Stranger Comics and Prentice Penny just got together with, I think, HBO to start bringing some Niobe comics to life.

[KARLI] Cool.

[JOSIAH] So that’s something I’ve followed for a while but I have so much to catch up on. Another one that’s actually gonna be adapted that I’ve been meaning to look into is The Antagonists by Godhood Comics. That’s another Black owned company that got recommended to me on Twitter. But a film and media festival that I’ve participated in a couple of times called Micheaux Fest. If I remember correctly, one of the co-founders, Noel Braham, I hope I’m saying your name right, Noel. His production company has teamed up with Godhood Comics, last I checked, to do an adaptation of Antagonists, the comic book. It’s about a Black family who are antagonists, villains, anti-heroes, something like that. I haven’t read it yet, but I follow them on Instagram and Twitter. They upload panels of their art all the time and it looks really exciting and now apparently they have a movie or a TV show or movie in the works too. So, congrats to them and congrats to Noel of the Micheaux Fest, I’ve been a part of them a couple of years in a row.

[KARLI] Nice.

[JOSIAH] Um, I’m excited about Tuskegee Heirs. Its a comic book set in the future with a bunch of kids who are, if I remember correctly, the descendants of Tuskegee Airmen.

[JAMIE] Oh cool,

[JOSIAH] They’re a very important group of fighter pilots from U.S. history. There was also a movie, they inspired Red Tails. So in this comic book, the Tuskegee Heirs are a group of kids who fly around in like futuristic fighter jets that also turn into robots.

[KARLI] Ooo.

[JOSIAH] And they fight evil.

[JAMIE] Oh cool.

[JOSIAH] And they like fight aliens and stuff. [Karli chuckles] And so I’ve got Volume I. They are co-written and illustrated by @marcusthevisual on Instagram and Twitter. He’s a really awesome Black artist who’s like a big fan of anime and X-Men and you see some of those influences in the book Tuskegee Heirs.

[KARLI] Nice.

[JOSIAH] So if you like that, you should check that out. Another one I’m excited about are Volume II and/or III of Trill League by Ant Piper, is on its way. And that’s been going on for several years now. If I have it right, the term trill is like very popular in Chicago. It’s a positive term, it means like cool and stuff like that. But that’s apparently a uniquely Chicago thing. Ant Piper, the writer and artist is from there. Basically it’s like if the Justice League was in the hood. So you have like a Black Robin, the Boy Wonder called Sparrow who’s got a high top fade, he’s great at martial arts.

[KARLI] [chuckles] Nice.

[JOSIAH] And he’s the partner to [chuckles] a Batman analogue named Blackmayne, who’s like um, basically a super Black Panther. And they’ve got like a Superman analogue, they’ve got a Wonder Woman analogue named Wondeisha, um, who’s always got boyfriend trouble. They’ve got a Green Lantern analogue, who I think kind of resembles Rick James and they have a Flash analogue who kind of resembles Michael Jackson. So it’s just a funny, a funny strip. They sometimes fight crime but then they also have a sit-com kinda vibe to it. But the art is amazing. Ant Piper is amazing. So that’s really cool. So Trill League, check them out.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JOSIAH] Amazing art, really cool color commentary. I’ll be real with you. We not afraid of that. So I think y’all should check that out.

[JAMIE] For sure.

[JOSIAH] And last, but not least, I’m really excited about—I hope I’m pronouncing it right—Etan Comics. E. T. A. N. Comics. They’re an Ethiopian publishing house that again, when you’re a nerd these things just kind of come up, hashtags, [Karli chuckles] YouTube, twitter recommendations, whatever. And so I’ve read two books from Etan comics, and I hope I pronounce these right. The first title I read was Hawi. H. A. W. I. And the second one is called Jember, I believe. J. E. M. B. E. R. They’re single books, one’s a man and one’s a woman. Both books have three to five issues each at the time of this recording. Both follow two Ethiopian natives, one is in Ethiopia when the story takes place. The woman, she’s in the states, I wanna say Los Angeles, but I might be wrong. And basically, super hero origin stories. One is Ethiopian and gets really cool ancestral magic powers. The woman, she’s like best friends with her mom, or they have a strong bond. But they’re experiencing some tension right now. And then the girl just stumbles upon ancestral magic and it’s pretty cool, she becomes a super hero. And then the guy, I think his is Jember. He’s living in his native Ethiopia, kind of down on his luck a little bit. He also stumbles across ancestral magic, but he’s playing sports with his friends and then you know, he loses the ball and then kind of like in this Indiana Jones type vibe he like stumbles down this cave and just gets these really amazing powers and he’s like going viral and trying to figure out how to like help his hometown and Ethiopia and stuff like that, and the whole world. A lot of cool ancestry and like family tension and family stories also. So I found that really cool, I read both of those books.

[KARLI] Nice.

[JOSIAH] Hawi, I think I’m saying it right, and Jember. Right now you can only get them online via the website, etancomics.com but they’ve got a newsletter. They’re on YouTube, they’re on social media everywhere. And so I’m just excited about those titles. It feels like every day I’m just finding out about more and more different Black comics and stories coming out—

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JOSIAH] Overall—television, film deals, and adaptations. And so that stuff is really, really cool so thanks for letting me share that with you guys. You got a lot to look forward to, check em out.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely.

[JAMIE] Thanks for sharing.

[KARLI] Nice. Sounds like we have a lot of great stuff to check out there. We love recommendations here but I guess the big question now is your official 2cent Recommendation.

[JOSIAH] Oh, hmm. One single recommendation. [chuckles]

[KARLI] The most difficult portion of the entire podcast is picking one thing.

[JAMIE] Would it help if we say you could have two?

[JOSIAH] Yes. Two recommendations. If you, like me, if you loved kids web and if you loved Static Shock, Reginald Hudlin and Denys Cohen, and milestone media guys are back. In fact, they even have a documentary on HBO Max, I think called Milestone Legacy{A google after the fact told us it's called Milestone Generations}. And it's all about the relaunch of Static Shock and Rocket and Icon you know. If you watched Young Justice, you saw Static, Icon, and Rocket on that cartoon. So if you're interested in those books, those are like, those are coming back. Like I did, on the plane to Rwanda, I was like reading Static and all those books. I was like a kid again, right? [Jamie chuckles] Because they haven't really been in print in years. And there's like new stuff. So Static's backward, like a new origin, you know, instead of gang violence where he gets his lightning powers, he's at like, Black Lives Matter protest. And he gets his powers there. And it's you know, and there's some cool family dynamics and stuff.

[JAMIE] So it's like a relaunching for the next, for the new generation.

[JOSIAH] Exactly.

[KARLI] That's awesome.

[JOSIAH] Exactly. So if you like, so if you like Static, check that out.

[JAMIE] I'm also going to check out that documentary. I love me good documentary. [chuckles]

[JOSIAH] Yeah, no, it's really it's really good. I think it's like is narrated by like, Method Man, and they have all these different you know, the voice actor for Virgil, aka Static is also in the documentary from the cartoon. Phil LaMarr. He's been in all types of you've heard Phil LaMarr's voice in like everything.

[KARLI] Oh yeah.

[JOSIAH] I think—did he play? He might have played green—I think he played Green Lantern in Justice League, I think. He's so good. Sometimes I'm not sure if it's him or not. But um, so it's a great documentary. I think it's on HBO Max still. And then number two, if you like, oh, no, you said Ninja Turtles not Power Rangers. Well, if you like Power Rangers...

[KARLI]

I mean, I like a good Power Ranger. [laughing] I am a 90s kid.

[JOSIAH] There we go. Yeah, if you liked Power Rangers, and and I guess like Green Lantern. Because you know now, we have red lanterns and sapphires, lanterns and stuff. And if you're a writer, like we three are and you struggle, you'll enjoy the new comic book, creator owned I think also—from Image Comics, Radiant Black is a comic I've been enjoying. I think his name is, the riders name is I think, Kyle Higgins. And apparently he used to write for Power Rangers a few years ago, I never happened to read the latest iteration. But his story is about, he goes from trying to be a successful novelist in LA, struggling Uber driver, to then having to pack up and go back home to I think Chicago, move back in with his parents. He's like our age here. And he reunites with his best friend and they're at a bar or something, then they, they stumble upon this little like, black hole that's hovering over a train tracks, and they're like, they're drunk. And they're like, are you seeing this? And it's like, and so the main character grabs it, and like his body transforms, and he like, looks like Daft Punk or something.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah!

[JOSIAH] But like black, but like black and white. And he's like, has these cool, he can fly. He can levitate things. He kind of has like dark powers that kind of resemble... if you watch Teen Titans, they kind of look like Raven's powers. So he's just this failed artist who becomes a superhero. [Karli laughs] But he's still got to figure out how to like, earn his advance. So if something his parents—I think I'm rambling.

[JAMIE] That sounds great.

[KARLI] I love it.

[JOSIAH] It's called Ra—it's called Radiant Black. I think it's been out about two, three years. It's a lot of fun. I enjoy it a lot.

[KARLI] Nice. It sounds perfect for us struggling artists.

[JOSIAH] So those are my two recommendations.

[KARLI] Very cool. Thank you so much, those sounds really interesting.

[JAMIE] So if you aren't already listening to Josiah's podcast, Josiah's Voice, check that out. He's doing a really great travel series right now. You did announce that you are doing a season five, correct?

[JOSIAH] Yes.

[KARLI] Yay!

[JAMIE] On the podcast that you said, like you are doing season five, where you will be doing more interviews. Check out Josiah's podcast for wonderful interviews with industry professionals and creatives.

[KARLI] It's awesome.

[JOSIAH] Thank you so much.

[KARLI] I'm very excited you're doing another season.

[JAMIE] Your—the travel series you're doing right now has been great. Was that something you always planned to do? Or were you like, while we're traveling? I should do this. Did that come later?

[JOSIAH] That part. Yeah, I had never planned to do a travel one and then living abroad. I was like, well, that's, that's a really major shift. That's—I really have changed my life. Things are going differently. You know, my creativity is a little bit different. The so-called job security, if one can be, if one can have job security as a production assistant or in film, let me know. [Jamie and Karli laugh] Definitely became even more shaky because I'm used to an industry in the United States where I was born versus in another, in another country. But again, a whole different continent with its own other little you know, there's South Africa's got film, there's Nollywood, Nigeria, you know, and so also detoxing and just kind of, and or relaxing. And just like there's nothing I really need to do you know, in our research, we saw people were like, man, when I moved to another country, or when I moved somewhere in Africa, I didn't do nothing for eight months. I just relaxed, because everything's different.

[KARLI] It sounds like you're just you're taking it all in, you're absorbing, you're experiencing life.

[JOSIAH] Exactly. And so so that was what inspired it. So I was like let me, let me just try this because I'm here with my family. I have other close family friends who are already here. There are some YouTubers that I liked who some of which like gave my family advice for different logistical things you know, visa, passport, etcetera. kind of gave you things to help in your preparedness and some of them were like kind enough to sit sit down on Zoom and answer questions and talk about you know, yeah, I've lived in Bali, I've lived in India, I've lived—and I was just just like wow, like this is, this is cool. And just you know, just how big you know the world is and just that sense of you know, wanderlust in going off and doing things I don't know maybe that's part of partially why I fell in down the Wes Anderson rabbit hole, maybe. [Jamie chuckles] Because you know, from going under the sea in Life Aquatic to The Grand Budapest Hotel to... you know, just that sense of adventure I think kind of overtook me because I'm you know, if you listen to some of my episode, like you know, I'm like on this plane first class, and then you know, there's this dude with like a falcon in the airport. [Jamie and Karli laugh] You know, it was just you know, it's it was very adventurous, very Lord of the Rings, Series of Unfortunate Events. More fortunate than unfortunate, thankfully. [Karli chuckles]

[JAMIE] It's, it's that quote from Bilbo, like, you never know what's gonna happen when you step outside your door

[JOSIAH] Perfectly said.

[JAMIE] You are doing a season five, and you plan to go back to doing industry filmmaker interviews, which I'm—I'm excited to hear. When is that slated to start?

[JOSIAH] Right. So my plan—we'll see—[Josiah and Jamie chuckle] is maybe the first week of October, I plan to launch season five, which might be kind of brief, recap some travel stuff. Some more, you know, adventures are coming up. And then I have some interviews already conducted with some cool people I met on set. And then and then I'll just get and then I'll keep going. Because you reminded me yeah, when I started season four, I was like, what am I going to do? Like I felt a shift of some sort. I wasn't always sure how long Josiah's Voice was go, because it started off as a hobby. So I was trying to take a little bit more more seriously. I've seen some blessings come like being invited on other people's stuff such as, such as The Act Break. And so yeah, I'm going to be doing more film interviews, I think I'm feeling the bug of writing, again, some pros, maybe some some scripts and just try to write like, I don't know what's going to happen. But just, you know, I get what do you say in The French Dispatch? Write it as if you meant for it to sound that way. [all chuckle] Write with meaning, not with the eye of what's going to happen to it? I'm just going to do that. And I hope to be able to share those things. Because Josiah's Voice was supposed to chronicle my own development as a writer as well, as well as share stories with you guys from other people a little bit further ahead.

[KARLI] That's awesome.

[JOSIAH] So I'm excited. I'm pretty hyped.

[JAMIE] I'm looking forward to seeing what you do next, you as well as many other people through Instagram, via like, over the last couple of years we've done... there's been a bit of a shift to being more open to like, I don't have a set, this is what's going to happen. I'm going to take in experiences and like maybe my creativity will lead me this way. Maybe it'll lead me that way.

[JOSIAH] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Not a rule. Like it's going to be like my experiences are going to influence where I take the next step in the next path. And I'm excited to see where it leads you.

[KARLI] Absolutely same. Thank you so much for sharing all of that with us.

[JOSIAH] You're welcome. I'm excited.

[JAMIE] You can find Josiah on social media on Instagram and Twitter at @josiah.docx. And also follow @josiahsvoicepod on Instagram for the latest updates on when he drops new episodes. That can be found anywher fine podcasts can be found. Thanks to Anchor. Callback.

[JOSIAH] Thank you to Anchor. [all chuckle]

[KARLI] I love that you do the sound bites on your Instagram for your next episode. I'm like, I need to figure out how to do that. I asked you, and  you told me and I still can't figure it out.

[JOSIAH] Yeah, I did. I was like, wait, didn't I send her the?

[KARLI] You did! You totally did.

[JOSIAH] We'll figure it out together.

[KARLI] One day, we'll figure it out. [laughs]

[JOSIAH] When it's time, it's time. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Thank you for always being so willing to like, share what you've learned and everything like that you are like one of the like most generous people that I know of like pulling people alongside you and your creative journey. And I feel so grateful to call you my internet friend. So thank you so much for everything, Josiah.

[JOSIAH] You're so welcome.

[JAMIE] And check out Noteworthy Tribute by Josiah and his father, Mark Bradley. They co-wrote that together.

[JOSIAH] Yes.

[JAMIE] Thanks again for being here. Thanks, everybody, for listening. You can find all of our social media links in the description of this episode, as well as transcripts and sign up for the newsletter which will come out again eventually, probably. We don't know. Talk to you later, internet friends.

[JOSIAH] See you.

[KARLI] Bye.

Comfort Watch - Transcript

[JAMIE] If I had a nickel for every time I rewatched a show or movie for comfort, I would be rich. [Karli chuckles] Or as Andy Dwyer might say, like, fill my gas tank all the way up rich.

[KARLI] Ooo, that's big stuff these days.

[JAMIE] I'm like, I'm not thinking I would be wealthy, but I would definitely have some jacket money. [chuckles] We'd all be a little richer if we just would get a nickel every time.

[KARLI] For sure.

[JAMIE] Percentage wise from what you watch to what you comfort watch. Do you feel like it's more comfort?

[KARLI] More comfort than like new stuff?

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Oh, absolutely. [both chuckle] I feel like it's probably like a 95 to 5% ratio.

[JAMIE] That sounds like a good ratio to me.

[KARLI] I—I'm happy with it. It's working well.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Welcome back to your favorite comfort podcast where we talk about a little bit of everything story and a whole lot of nothing anything else. I'm Jamie Redact. I've been binge watching shows since way back in the day where you actually had to get up and change out the DVD in order to do so. And this is my co-host.

[KARLI] I'm K.C. Ash, Karli. And I remember being anxious for my comfort watch to finish rewinding in the VCR.

[JAMIE] Again, give it to me again.

[KARLI] Give it to me again.

[JAMIE] Be Kind, Rewind.

[KARLI] That's right.

[JAMIE] What started out as an idea to talk about the history and evolution of sitcom as wisely developed into a discussion on comfort watching. I still might do a history of sitcom thing someday, maybe at TEDx, whatever.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah.

[JAMIE] Sometime, sometime, I'll do that.

[KARLI] For sure I'll go, I'll go to that TED talk. I show up to your TED Talks every week. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Just keeps coming back. Mostly because they're free.

[KARLI] I like that free sh*t. Sitcoms usually, for a lot of people, are part of their comfort watch. But I also think that there are lots of different kinds of comfort watches, especially for those of us who didn't grow up with sitcoms. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] I know I was gonna ask, because I know that you didn't grow up with television, television, and you didn't know about episodic television until later in life, I assume that a lot of your like, formative years comfort watches will be movies. Like you said that whatever VHS tape that was. [both chuckle]

[KARLI] It depends on the period in my life, because I feel like my comfort watches have also evolved over time.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] When I was a kid, it was Land Before Time. As an adult, I'm like, that is depressing. [laughing] What is wrong with me?

[JAMIE] Yeah, I haven't seen that in so long. But I remember watching it dozens of times when it was over and over and over again. What do we mean by comfort watch, because here at The Act Break, we like to give definitions and explain things, even though they kind of already explained themselves.

[KARLI] You're welcome. We're so helpful.

[JAMIE] What's a comfort watch, Karli?

[KARLI] Comfort watch is that thing that you go to, when you feel in your feels—whatever those feels might be—to comfort you to make you feel better. It's something that you return to over and over again, you don't get tired of the story or the themes, it gives you a sense of satisfaction, knowing it's going to deliver something.

[JAMIE] You're gonna enjoy your experience your time while you're there.

[KARLI] You're gonna enjoy your experience. Whatever it is that you're going for, you're gonna get that and you know it, and it's great.

[JAMIE] It's just like, something you watch. That's comforting. You're welcome, everybody. [Karli laughs] Like you said, your comfort watch will evolve throughout your life. Formative years ones that are probably comfort watches, because you were a certain age, you were at a certain point in your life, and then that's when you saw them and they kind of stick to you. For some of our generation—and I will say that that's the millennial, elder millennial, if you want to be specific, but especially Gen X—that would be like Star Wars, Back to the Future, Hook. Those are—

[KARLI] Stop reading my list, okay?

[JAMIE] Sorry. [chuckles] But especially like, I know for my brother, who's a little older and—even though Star Wars is like one of those formative things for around our age—it's kind of a little older than us, that's like really when it hit for those people.

[KARLI] Yeah, especially when it launched it was really big for a lot of people on that was it before we were around.

[JAMIE] I feel like the equivalent for our generation is Harry Potter. Because when Harry Potter came out, I was the exact same age as Harry Potter. And then I got to watch those, one every year, we were always the same age.

[KARLI] You grew up with him. Yeah.

[JAMIE] So you grow up with them. It's like imprinting. [both laugh]

[KARLI] Like a little duck.

[JAMIE] When it comes to like the ones you watch at a certain age, if you had like a friend who'd never seen that, watch it now as an adult. It's just it doesn't it's not the same.

[KARLI] Like the kids comfort ones, you mean?

[JAMIE] Really anything that like I would say like younger years, like pre-14, Back to the Future was a big one, just because it was playing so often in our house.

[KARLI] I mean, I don't know, though, because I didn't watch Back to the Future until I was an adult. And I love it. And it's a comfort watch for me. So I think it depends.

[JAMIE] It stands up pretty well to not being just for kids or just for adults.

[KARLI] Right. I don't know. But like, I still enjoy animated movies like Hercules, I can watch over and over again, even as an adult and not get tired of it. Like that one, I think holds up really well. I mean, I don't really think that even things that are made for kids are necessarily out of the running. For standing up or holding up even if an adult sees it for the first time. I think it just depends on where you're at in your life when you watch it.

[JAMIE] And it also depends on the person.

[KARLI] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] I had a friend who had never seen The Lord of the Rings. But she knew how big it was. And we watched it. And she was like, well, now I'm glad I've watched it. But it didn't—it didn't impact her the way it impacted. So many of us, like, stayed up until midnight to be at the first screening and like watched it on the big screen and became like a whole part of it. Those sorts of things is what I'm thinking about.

[KARLI] That's the thing with comfort watches, is a lot of times it's tied to emotions or experiences that you had at the time of watching them originally, that you want to recreate and repeat, and by watching them again, it brings those things back up for us. And so that—it tracks.

[JAMIE] That's really a facet of the comfort watch is that nostalgia comfort watch. Those things that evoke those emotions that are directly tied to it. Yeah.

[KARLI] Mhmm. I am curious what if you had some other like childhood ones.

[JAMIE] When it comes to the childhood one time to remember what I watched as a kid and what I watched a lot, and it was funny that I'm like, I haven't seen some of them in years. So it's like they're not comfort watches anymore. Like The Chipmunk Adventure where they are on a hot air balloon race around the world. And I'm like, I haven't seen that for years. Like I don't even remember things about that. But I remember watching it a lot of times when I was a kid.

[KARLI] A lot of times.

[JAMIE] Land Before Time.

[KARLI] Mine was Darkwing Duck and Rescue Rangers. Those were big for me. DuckTales. [Jamie makes the intro sound to Duck Tales theme] Yeah. It's been really fun with the boys introducing them to some of my childhood like comfort watches, and some of them have gone off like gangbusters, they love them. And then some of them they're like, eh. And I'm like, how dare you not like that as much as I thought you would?! [laughs]

[JAMIE] My I remember it wasn't for me, but for my brother was Ghostbusters and Ninja Turtles.

[KARLI] Oh yep, I was majorly into Ninja Turtles, especially Michelangelo. I had a Michelangelo—I mean, it was Ninja Turtles—but it was a Michelangelo birthday party. I think I was eight. My mom made me a cake and everything. It was awesome.

[JAMIE] Formative years.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And then there's less... exactly nostalgia evoking, but more like the familiarity and the comfort of satisfaction. And to me those are like rom-coms, comedies and adventures, where you're gonna be like, I want to laugh a little bit. And then to know everybody is going to be happy in the end. These are the types of movies you could put on when you're sad. But then you could also put on like, just when you want to do housework, but you don't want to feel like you're alone. I want to do this and that, but I also want something comforting.

[KARLI] Right. Yeah, I don't watch rom-coms for that, actually. Like, I'll watch a rom-com from time to time. But I really want it to be more comedy than romance and like I just... but yeah, I definitely have movies that evoke that like everybody's going to be fine in the end thing.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to just cover a couple because I feel like depending on your preferences, different things will fall into this category for you. For me, like the romcom that come to mind are like kind of older ones. While You Were Sleeping, You've Got Mail, Sabrina. Those are ones that I'm like, oh, yeah, I could watch that, have that in the background, say the one liners when they're saying them. All of that.

[KARLI] Right, Sabrina is the exception to the rule on that one. Both the older one and the newer one. Those ones I can quote verbatim [chuckles] the whole way through. So yeah.

[JAMIE] It's a good one.

[KARLI] If I'm going to watch them usually it's an older one. But yeah.

[JAMIE] With that one, it becomes that being with those characters starts feeling like being with a familiar old friend. You know, what you're getting into. That can be comforting.

[KARLI] Yeah, my actual—the rom-com that I do play, which it's, I don't know, it's it is rom—rom-com, but it's also like, I don't know—it's Stranger Than Fiction. So that, that's one that's a comfort for me, Princess Bride, you know, those things. Yeah, I can watch those on a loop for sure.

[JAMIE] This is probably where sitcoms slot in for me, because I have a bunch of sitcoms that like me and my husband will just watch. When we finish one, we watch the next one, and then the next one, and then we start again from the beginning. I didn't look up the statistic, but like in the year 2020, The Office was the most streamed show on Netflix before it was—before Netflix lost it.

[KARLI] Ripped the rug out from underneath you.

[JAMIE] Like we got to blame Peacock for that, but it just kind of showed like, everybody wanted—everybody wants to laugh. Everybody wants to have that familiar feeling sometimes, and sitcoms lend themselves to that very, very much so. But I won't wax poetic about sitcoms for long.

[JAMIE] I like that you brought it up though, because it is definitely a facet. And for me, it's Parks and Rec.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I have a whole list I'll talk about a little later. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Oh, that's fine.

[JAMIE] I have nothing if not dozens of comfort watches. I think that your percentage was probably close to what my percentage is. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, that's that tracks, based on all of the conversations we have about, what are you watching right now? Mmm, same stuff different day. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yep. So with that category of like the familiar and the satisfying be where Grey's Anatomy falls for you?

[KARLI] Not anymore. You know it's really funny like I—there are shows that I used to watch on repeat that now I'm struggling to rewatch that I don't know, something has shifted for me where Grey's Anatomy used to be a comfort watch for me, now it makes me anxious. [both chuckle]

[JAMIE] Even though you know what's gonna happen? Yeah, you're like, nope, nope, nope.

[KARLI] No more. No more trauma.

[JAMIE] And there are bears everywhere. And the bears have knives. My favorite quote.

[KARLI] Ah, Callie. There—I feel like there's comfort watches but then there's also like comfort characters within.

[JAMIE] Oh, yeah, for sure.

[KARLI] And I feel like Callie is a comfort character for me. Like Calliope Torres. Comfort character.

[JAMIE] Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Because I'm like, I would never consider Supernatural a comfort watch by any means. [Karli laughs] But I would definitely consider Dean Winchester, a comfort character. [laughs]

[KARLI] Absolutely. And that tracks. Comfort watches can also include things that leave you with a certain emotion or like a sense of hope, especially I think at the end, where you walk away going like "yeah, positivity."

[JAMIE] It's a feel good movie and inspirationing. [laughs] Inspirationing. [Karli laughs] Yeah, it's inspirationing, folks. I love to be inspirationed.

[KARLI] [laugh] I have been inspirationed by Secret Life of Walter Mitty. And I was trying to think of other ones like that, because I know I have some, but my brain just like drew a big blank with that one. Do you have others that kind of have that like feeling for you?

[JAMIE] Secret Life of Walter Mitty is like the ultimate example I think of this. But some of the other ones. I feel like they don't have to be as as inspirational as that or as transcendent. Because one of them is, that I think of as Couples Retreat.

[KARLI] Oh my god. Yes!

[JAMIE] And it's a rom-com. But at the end, you feel so good. And so part of what I think it takes to be like that inspirational feeling is it's that the characters have come through like a bunch of hard or difficult things. And they've come out the other side with hope. And you can do that in any type of story.

[KARLI] Yes, absolutely. I do agree with that. And I—and I love Couple's Retreat, so.

[JAMIE] Couples Retreat is one of the weird like random movies that's one of our comfort watches. We've watched it dozens of times. Another one that's like a deeper existential movie, but has a sense of hope is Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind.

[KARLI] I could—I couldn't—couldn't do it. It was too it was too much for me. [laughs]

[JAMIE] What? In what way? Elaborate on that.

[KARLI] Emotionally overwhelming.

[JAMIE] Oh okay. Well, I feel like that makes sense. But it's like it's very much one of those stories where it's like they go through a lot. But at the end, it ends on a note of hope, even though it is a little bit ambiguous.

[KARLI] That tracks.

[JAMIE] Yeah, just any movie that leaves you with a sense that like the world is not only a dark place, that change and transformation are possible.

[KARLI] Fantasia gives me that feeling. Like watching Fan—like there's not really like a story arc—it's just animated stuff happening to music and, like, it leaves me with a feeling of like inspiration.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I feel like that's—a word I've been using a lot lately is like a feeling of transcendence. Art makes you feel like some sort of way. More is possible. There's more out there than like, our own personal crap.

[KARLI] Yes. And I think that that's why I thought of Fantasia when you said all of that, so yes.

[JAMIE] Yeah. As far as things that I would have that I would put in, like that category. If I look at my little list thing here of things I wrote down, I kind of feel like Make Happy. This comedy special by Bo Burnham is that for me. Where it's a I mean, obviously, there are stories in it. But it makes you feel like things are bigger than just me. And, and art exists and is doing good things.

[KARLI] Cool and interesting things for sure. Do you have comfort actors or filmmakers? Where like, you know, if you watch a movie of theirs, you're going to enjoy it. And so you look for movies with them in it or movies that they've made.

[JAMIE] Yes. Yeah, I do. I do have the the top one I thought of was Steve Martin, if there was like a Steve Martin movie, and we're like, hey, we've never seen this, but it has Steve Martin in it. We're like, okay, we'll try it. Another one would be Tom Hanks. There are a few movies that I didn't care for that he was in, but it was more about the movies than him. And if I think about it, I'm pretty sure they were all David Edgar's books that were translated to movies and I didn't cared for the books to begin with. So I'm not blaming Tom Hanks. I would never blame America's dad.

[KARLI] Never. You never blame Tom Hanks.

[JAMIE] Oh, and Jackie Chan. I watch anything with Jackie Chan in it. So there are definitely a few where I'm like, oh, that's like it's just nice to see that person because I've grown up watching them my whole life. And it's very much like an old friend. Even though that sounds kind of crazy. And like, they're real people. I would never accost them in real life. But, but they are definitely comfort actors.

[KARLI] Right. I feel that way about Harrison Ford, Brendan Fraser, Morgan Freeman. Rachel Weiss. [dramatic whispers] Oded Fehr. [normal voice] The Mummy. The Mummy is a major comfort watch for me.

[JAMIE] I don't see her—she's not—doesn't work as much. Minnie Driver. I really like Minnie.

[KARLI] Oh, I love Minnie Driver. I loved, what was the one? "Grace got Bob's dead wife's heart!"

[JAMIE] Oh, Return to Me. That is also a comfort watch.

[KARLI] Yes, Return to Me.

[JAMIE] It's so good.

[KARLI] I haven't seen that in forever. But as soon as you said Minnie Driver, that is the one that I love her in the most

[JAMIE] David Duchovny and Minnie Driver. I want to watch that movie now.

[KARLI] Oh, it's time to watch that again. It's so funny. I—there are certain rom-coms for sure that are staples for me and you keep bringing up some that I have completely forgotten about because I don't watch them very often.

[JAMIE] It blew your, I don't watch rom-coms for comfort, out of the water. [laughs]

[KARLI] I know but I like it. It's good. It's good to remind me of stuff that I don't remember. But most of the ones that I thought of aren't necessarily like feel good happy, like they're adventure or action or whatever. And I—like those ones are my major go to comfort watches like Men in Black, and The Mummy, and Indiana Jones and those sorts of things are major comfort watches for me. Like Indiana Jones Raiders of the Lost Ark we had on LaserDisc. And I remember the exact moment in the movie where we had to flip the LaserDisc. [laughs] Like it's just it's one of those things that it's like even if I'm watching it, streaming it or whatever. I'm like, and here's where we flipped the LaserDisc.

[JAMIE] Forever ingrained in my memory. Yeah, there's um, when me and my husband want a comfort watch, we always use the term where you go, a funny one. We watch probably 90% comedy And a lot of them aren't even, they don't even necessarily have to be like amazing movies. It just has to be something that's funny.

[KARLI] Yeah, it just stuffed that—Clue with Tim Curry, nothing wildly...

[JAMIE] Wildly good. I would definitely put that in the good category. [laughs]

[KARLI] I didn't mean it wasn't wildly good. I was just saying that there's nothing like it doesn't leave you with like a transcending feeling but it makes you feel good. And it's great. And it's a good time. Yeah, absolutely. I was going to ask you, if there's any movies that put you in a particularly creative mood, like you watch it, and you go, I want to go write something or I want to draw or they just make you feel like re-inspired to do something. And I'm curious if there's one in particular or couple that you go back to for that feeling when you're feeling creatively stifled?

[JAMIE] For sure there are those. I will sound like a broken record. But um, Edgar Wright. So Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, Secret Life of Walter Mitty, Avatar The Last Airbender. Those are the first three that come to mind where it's like, you feel inspired because they're done so well. They're just so good. If you ask me for like, I just I can give you a million things. I have—sh—like shows I can do movies. I could do sitcoms I could do—

[KARLI] There's lots of examples, and it's tough. I just wanted to give us the space to like talk about as many things as possible. [Jamie chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yeah, we definitely have that.

[KARLI] I get that I—Guy Ritchie films for me.

[JAMIE] The Man from U.N.C.L.E. The new the Guy Ritchie, The Man from U.N.C.L.E. is—I love that.

[KARLI] Yeah, any of them. For me. I love how fast paced and like engaging the story and the way he does storytelling. It's just—it always makes me feel inspired, and excited. Also creatively two really kind of out there movies that you're like, why does that inspire you creatively? I don't know. I like them. Van Helsing and Warcraft. They make me want to write stuff.

[JAMIE] Van Helsing is a good movie.

[KARLI] And not necessarily in that category. But like, they make me want to go write stuff and actually be a creator.

[JAMIE] Yeah. And that's what the point of art, isn't it? Is to inspire and like evoke emotions. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing we're talking about. Yeah, I mean, I just want to make sure we just really beat a dead horse and tell people all the things that they should be watching and that we're watching. Anything else that you haven't mentioned?

[KARLI] I mean, like comfort watches, that wouldn't be comfort watches for anybody else maybe? [laughs] You know, like Deadpool, things like that.

[JAMIE] If that's, if that's what you're into. I have some like newer ones. Always Be My Maybe with Ali Wong and Randall Park.

[KARLI] Oh, I loved that one.

[JAMIE] I have watched that like four times since it's been out. As well as Set It Up, which is with Taye Diggs and Lucy Liu and I'm like these are just like rom-coms but they're so good.

[KARLI] I have recommended Always Be My Maybe to like everybody that I talked to. Even with like, there's no segue like just immediately like have you watched Always Be My Maybe? You need to.

[JAMIE] And the other Netflix thing that has become a comfort watch that I never would have seen coming and I just keep on watching it is Bridgerton Season Two.

[KARLI] Oh snap.

[JAMIE] I don't know why. I've watched it like three or four times.

[KARLI] That one surprised me. I mean, I figured you would enjoy the show overall.

[JAMIE] It's funny because I'm like I have not rewatched season one at all so it's very character based and I think that that's what—

[KARLI] It's all about that slow burn.

[JAMIE] Anthony Bridgerton is a comfort character for me and then also, Sharma. So it's like the double.

[KARLI] She has become a comfort character for me too. She is phenomenal.

[JAMIE] I don't even know if I'm going to keep watching the show. But it's that [laughing] one seaon. So comforting.

[KARLI] You know what another one just popped in my head. Clueless.

[JAMIE] [sighs] A young Paul Rudd, beautiful Alicia Silverstone. So many jokes.

[KARLI] Do know what time it is young lady? A watch really didn't go with my outfit, daddy.

[JAMIE] Think about Clueless. It's more of an intellectual comedy than people give it credit for because it's self aware. Like they're literally using a whole trope against itself. It's so good. But you still get character growth.

[KARLI] And a retelling all in one.

[JAMIE] Exactly. That's a good one. I haven't watched it for a while.

[KARLI] You could just keep going and going and going and I feel like we could go for another fifteen minutes just listing more of our favorites and recommendations and just keep...

[JAMIE] Pick one show, I will say show [Karli mildly hyperventilates] that you're trapped on an island, this will be the only thing you have to watch. For the rest of your time on the island.

[KARLI] You didn't prepare me for this.

[JAMIE] I didn't. I didn't, I didn't prepare myself for this. If it makes you feel any better.

[KARLI] Popped in your head. Okay.

[JAMIE] I am looking at my list.

[KARLI] What's yours?

[JAMIE] It's very difficult to choose off this list. And it's also like, how long the show goes for will give you more. Ultimately, I would have to say The Office because it has the most episodes of anything on my list. [Karli chuckles]

[KARLI] Because if you're trapped on an island, you need more.

[JAMIE] Exactly. You don't want to pick a show that only has two seasons. Because then you it's like really on a loop. You want to have like a journey. But I want to say Community, but The Office is longer.

[KARLI] Yeah, I can see that. Now. I feel like there's all of all of the all of the shows that I have ever watched have left my brain. My current fixation is Battlestar Galactica. So I'm gonna go with that one.

[JAMIE] That's a good one because it's pretty long.

[KARLI] It's got en—several seasons, I enjoy it as a whole. I'm happy with how it ended. So I don't feel like I would end up rewatching it over and over and over again and get mad because I hate the ending.

[JAMIE] Yeah, yeah, that's another part of it. You never would want to pick something that as an ending that you're not happy with.

[KARLI] Right.

[JAMIE] [coughs] Supernatural. [both laugh] That show has a sh*t-ton of seasons, but also I fast forward half of every episode.

[KARLI] Ohhh.

[JAMIE] Because I don't care— All right. Do you have a recommendation for today? I mean, it was all recommendation but, but let's do it anyway.

[KARLI] I mean, this was a recommendation strong episode, but I’m, I'm gonna give you another one. This is a childhood favorite of mine that I think stands up still. It's ridiculous, and goofy, and off the wall, but it's got some fantastic people in it. And that would be Space Jam. The original.

[JAMIE] Oh, I haven't seen Space Jam in a long time. Cool. What a great episode where we just mentioned everything that we love over and over again like we do with every other episode. [Karli chuckles] The thing I want to leave people with the most is never feel bad for just comfort watching stuff you've already watched.

[KARLI] Mhmm. You need the serotonin in your life. Exactly. And if anybody tells you you don't you don't need that in your life. [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] Immediately cut them out, change your number, or your locks, [Karli chuckles] whichever applies. Watch something comforting this week. Just be—be do something that brings you joy.

[KARLI] Comfort watch, and then tag us so we can see what your comfort watching.

[JAMIE] Hashtag comfort watch.

[KARLI] That's right. Tag us at @theactbreak_podcast, which is where you can find us on Instagram. And you can go to our website scifiohmy.com/podcast. All of the links for everything is in the description of this episode. Take you to all the places for the newsletter and the social media, Ko-fi. If you got a minute, you could leave us a review. Follow us so that you get notifications when we drop new episodes, which is every Thursday. Thank you so much for listening, guys.

[JAMIE] Have a good one.

[KARLI] Bye.

Dialogue - Transcript

[JAMIE] The game is afoot.

[KARLI] The show has begun.

[A.P.] How many drinks does everyone have today?

[JAMIE] I literally just finished my coffee. So now I only have water. So it's not going well.

[A.P.] I went for the three. I was like, I'm going for it.

[KARLI] Oh, nice. What do you have?

[A.P.] Ice water, coffee, and a sparkling icy.

[KARLI] Oh, where do you get a sparkling icy?

[A.P.] I don't know my friend flew into town for the writers retreat and that's his mixer of choice so we had leftover, [chuckles] and I'm just drinking it.

[KARLI] Delightful.

[JAMIE] I didn't know this was a thing until I learned recently you could get like Red Bull slushies. And I don't usually drink energy drinks, but I would drink me a Red Bull slushie.

[KARLI] I love Red Bull.

[A.P.] This same friend literally gets one of those every day.

[JAMIE] Oh, their poor heart.

[KARLI] [laughing] My heart physically hurt hearing that. [A.P. chuckles]

[JAMIE] Ugh.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] We're constantly rusty but like, you know when life just throws you off, and so we decided to subject you to that. [Karli laughs]

[A.P.] Cool.

[JAMIE] [Singsong] You're welcome.

[A.P.] Good episodes lately. I've really enjoyed the last few. Not that you know, not that I'm saying that I haven't before that.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] Very nice.

[A.P.] You guys are finally you know getting [laughing]—just kidding.

[KARLI] Finally getting your shit together. [laughing]

[JAMIE] Finally hitting our stride. That's fair. All episodes can't be of the same exact quality. Sure we try. But when you're done making them you're like, eh, this one's not gonna be a home run, but you know, it is gonna fill a space.

[A.P.] I definitely remember that thought process where you're like, yeah, can't all be winners. [all chuckling]

[JAMIE] But thank you for listening. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yes, we're very grateful that you listen to us, and then you still come talk to us.

[A.P.] I'm like, man, I gotta come make this better. [laughs]

[JAMIE] I gotta come on and correct them. Get them straightened out.

[A.P.] I have literally had arguments with you guys while listening to your podcasts. [all laugh]

[KARLI] Listen, I would like for you to like, record those and send them to us.

[JAMIE] What about? I want to know, what's the first thing that comes to mind?

[A.P.] I'm gonna start my own podcast. It's a reaction podcast. [A.P.] and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE] No, what's the first thing that comes to mind that you wish you could have yelled at us about?

[KARLI] I feel like you—the things that you really want to yell at us about you discord message us.

[A.P.] No, no, trust me, I filter myself for you guys.

[KARLI] Oh?!

[A.P.] It's—it's a nightmare otherwise. [all laugh]

[JAMIE] Wow, no wonder you showed up today really wanted to be able to have your say.

[A.P.] Tired of being silenced by a pre recorded episode that I'm listening to. [all chuckling]

[JAMIE] But it does make me feel good though. Because I'm like, the whole concept was like, I want people to feel like they're with us. And if you feel like you can yell at it. I feel like it's pretty close to how it is when you're really with us.

[A.P.] It's true.

[KARLI] Okay. Welcome back to The Act Break podcast, folks. Today, we have a great conversation. I have to introduce myself first. [A.P. laughs]

[JAMIE] And maybe it'll be a great conversation.

[KARLI] It's going to be great. I will it to be so mainly because the two of you are here and bring better dialogue than I do. Okay. I'm Karli, and I'm here. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Thanks for being here, Karli. [chuckles]

[KARLI] [laughing] That's about all I got for you.

[JAMIE] I am Jamie Redact. And my opinion of my speech and dialogue skills are so high that I co-created this podcast. [all laughing] Oh, man, the things that come out of my mouth are super valuable. I should share them with the world. And we're joined today by our friend, A.P.

[A.P.] Hi, thanks for having me back again.

[JAMIE] If you don't know who A.P. is, you must be new here.

[A.P.] Consider yourself lucky. [chuckles]

[KARLI] No, no, the true luck is getting to know you, A.P.

[JAMIE] But this will be your last episode.

[KARLI] Yeah. Cutting you off after this one.

[A.P.] I'm gonna just walk into the ocean after this episode is over. [Jamie laughs]

[KARLI] Really tired of you yelling at us. Really, really. That's what it is.

[A.P.] I'm tired of yelling at you. Come at me correct. [all laugh]

[KARLI] I feel like this is gonna be spicy. Probably not as spicy as I think. You guys probably agree on this topic.

[JAMIE] And that's why I'm so interested in what you maybe were going to yell at us and disagree about because, not every time but often, we're our thoughts and opinions are close to being in the same alignment, A.P. and I. So I'm like when you do differ, I want to hear about it. Because I want to know what's wrong with you. No I'm just kidding. [laughs]

[A.P.] [laughing] I'll start taking notes. I'll start trying to remember specific ones.

[JAMIE] Good, good, good, good. Good.

[A.P.] To be fair. I think it's usually Karli I'm disagreeing with.

[KARLI] Gasp. Shocker. [A.P. and Jamie laugh] No. Disagree with me?

[A.P.] I wouldn't say I was yelling at Karli while listening to her talk about Vonnegut. [Jamie laughs] But I was disappointed.

[JAMIE] I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed. [all laugh]

[KARLI] I am not surprised. You very snobby people in your high, highfalutin Vonnegut opinions.

[A.P.] No, I haven't even read that much Vonnegut. So I'm just just giving you shit.

[KARLI] No, it's fine. I don't care. All right. So as—sorry, guys, I feel like I'm stuck in a loop.

[A.P.] [whispers] Aren't we all?

[JAMIE] [whispers] I've been living this day over and over for 1,000 years.

[A.P.] Oh my god. [laughs]

[KARLI] Okay, guys, today we are discussing dialogue. The reason I want to have this conversation is because I feel like I suck at it. And I would like to hear all your juicy ideas about the dialoguing of it all. In fiction. Well, just in general, I guess.

[A.P.] Well, why do you think you suck?

[KARLI] Because I don't practice it enough. And I feel like it is painful. [A.P. chuckles] Every time I have to write dialogue.

[A.P.] No, like, what? What gives you the idea that you don't think your dialogue is good? Not like, what aren't you doing for your dialogue?

[KARLI] Uh, making them sound like they're having real conversations instead of like, "we're gonna do a thing now." I mean, that's how I feel when I'm writing dialogue. [laughs]

[JAMIE] So would you would you like, you feel like the conversations come off as more performative than organic?

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, they're there to serve what I need it to serve. And that's it. Like, they don't feel like anything else to me. See, I wanted to have this conversation so I could ask you guys questions. Stop turnin' it around on me.

[A.P.] No, just when you you know, when he gave me the topic, I was new said the thing. I was trying to think back to what I've read of yours. And I was like, I don't remember any issue with dialogue, so.

[KARLI] I write as little dialogue as possible. [A.P. and Jamie laugh] I try to craft my narrative to make it so I don't have to write dialogue as much as possible, which is why I like to write people alone all of the time. [laughs] And then when somebody show up, they're just trying to kill each other. So little dialogue, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. Everybody's alone again, yay.

[JAMIE] Now that I think about it. A lot of your characters are alone. [all chuckle]

[KARLI] I mean, see, see what I did there?

[A.P.] Smart, very smart. It's a stylistic choice, why deviate from it?

[JAMIE] You're playing to your strengths. It's a legitimate strategy. I have something to admit, when a book kind of is seeming a little slow to me. And I start to like, skim read it. I will just go from dialogue to dialogue, and kind of just like, glance over the other stuff and skip straight to the dialogue.

[KARLI] I do that too.

[A.P.] Totally. A hundred percent.

[JAMIE] [laughing] Okay good.

[A.P.] Next dialogue. Next dialogue. Yep, I got what they're saying.

[JAMIE] Let's get this moving.

[KARLI] Even as somebody who loves like world building and stuff, but exactly if the book is feeling slow, I'm like, I don't care about any of this exposition. What are they going to say to each other?

[JAMIE] Yeah. And so much in those in between the dialogue is something that is like, either implied, or really not important. Like, he turns towards the door. It's like, we don't care. So like, if I want a book to move faster, I'm just like okay, I'm glad I'm not the only one. Cool, let's proceed.

[KARLI] And then later, she's like, I didn't really care about the character. I don't know why, like, I just didn't feel invested. I'm like, well, maybe—

[A.P.] I didn't really get a good sense of space when I was reading.

[JAMIE] I don't know where I was.

[KARLI] Maybe you missed that when he turned to the door that somebody came in?

[JAMIE] Not like I do that with every book. And there's lots of books I've read every single word of it, and I still don't care about the character.

[KARLI] I know.

[JAMIE] I'm just hurt.

[KARLI] I just like to give you shit. Oh, boy. So dialogue. Where where to begin with—with the dialoguing?

[A.P.] Where dost one begin-neth? [chuckles]

[KARLI] Oneth begginnith [A.P. chuckles] with conversations between fictional people? I feel like there are set rules with you know how to craft an effective dialogue. How do you feel about the concept of knowing the rules before you can break them when it pertains to dialogue?

[JAMIE] Follow up. I wasn't totally sure what you meant by rules.

[KARLI] [laughing] I knew you were gonna say that.

[JAMIE] When I think about the rules of dialogue, quote, unquote, I use air quotes a lot, which is not great for a hearing medium.

[A.P.] Podcasts. A famously visual medium. [all chuckle]

[JAMIE] Exactly. I think about like the grammar and structure like, dialogue cues go here and you paragraph to a new—all those things. When I think of the rules of dialogue, I think about the structure, not what's going in between the quotations, not the things they're saying. And I think that those are incredibly important. And you should follow all the rules, because those are designed for clarity and understanding. There's a standard, and that helps your readers know what it is. So absolutely use all of the grammatical and all of those rules.

[KARLI] Yes.

[A.P.] Although.

[JAMIE] Oh?

[A.P.] I do love when someone kind of throws that out the window in short stories and is like, like, one character literally doesn't have dialogue tags. And just it's in the text of like, you turn to them and say this, or they just like don't have quotation marks anywhere.

[KARLI] The entities speaking in all capitals.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Unless it's like an incredibly stylistic and consistent thing. Like if you have like a thing you're doing.

[A.P.] Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the know the rules so you can break them. But you know, despite me personally kind of enjoying that when it comes to short fiction. Most people don't. [Jamie chuckles] I have a friend of mine who, you know, submitted a few pieces that didn't have quotation marks and did some some dialogue stuff. And every time an editor will come back, and be like, I'm adding quotation marks here for ease for the reader. And they were like, god dammit. [all chuckle]

[JAMIE] Well, I like it when there's no quotations for maybe like an entity, like something that's not necessarily a physical being. It's kind of cool to have no quotations there. Because it's like, then you're like, you don't know if that's just like a sound coming down from the unknown realm or something that's in their head. Like, it adds a whole different element. I don't mind those things, but probably more in short fiction.

[A.P.] It's tough.

[KARLI] I tried to read Margaret Atwood, and I'm just like, I'm lost [laughs] like, I can't— [A.P. chuckles]

[JAMIE] Which one?

[KARLI] Handmaid's Tale. It was like, I can't read a whole book where there's like, I can't... [laughs]

[JAMIE] What is, what's missing from that? I haven't picked it up.

[KARLI] The quotation marks around the dialogue.

[JAMIE] All of them?

[KARLI] At least in the copy that I had. So I don't know if that's like a general rule of hers, or if it's that book, or if I just got the shitty copy, [laughs] I don't know. [A.P. chuckles] So when I was thinking about rules, I definitely wasn't thinking about the grammatical rules. I was just kind of curious what other people were saying about dialogue. So I did, I did some googling. They say things like, use dialogue as you would actual speech and show what the characters are doing while they're talking and keep, you know, that sort of thing. So I just, I was curious if you guys had any specific things that you've heard somebody say, like, you have to do this with dialog, and you're like, absolutely not.

[A.P.] Yeah. Earlier on. When I first started take this seriously, you know, it was listening to all the prescriptive advice. And I feel like a lot of that I've kind of, you know, tucked away and kind of bring out every once a while, but kind of do my own thing. But when it comes to dialogue, there are two things that have always stuck with me from the very beginning. The first one is using said and asked basically, exclusively, when it comes to dialogue tags, and like, you know, he whispered or he screamed or like that, just get rid of all that. And the second one is to use action tags for dialogue. And so those are the two things that I aggressively do in all my writing. Like, I almost never put, like he said, she said, it's almost always action.

[KARLI] That was my next question is about dialogue tags. So how do you feel about them? So obviously, you, you have very specific opinions on how you like to handle that because there are people in the camp of everybody, like they said, after everything, don't use, don't use anything else. And there are some writers who they're like, he growled, after everything. And then there are people who are like, no action only. So it's just, I like to hear what other people like to do.

[JAMIE] I like to think if you use all of the grammatical and structural rules of, of when to go to a new paragraph, and things like that—with that, plus, if you've created characters that have distinct voices, or distinct, you know, character—I like to use as few dialogue tags as possible.

[KARLI] You should be able to know who's talking based on their character, and how you framed it.

[JAMIE] Yeah, based on what they're saying. Because when you get to like a real juicy part where it's just a conversation of back and forth, you know, a lot of people you just drop off those dialogue tags because it's like new line, other person's switch, switch, switch. So if you're doing those two things right, you can use less and less dialogue tags, but I do agree with you, A.P., using they said is so bleh. And that's just something that if you have like a reader who reads a lot like their brain is just auto skipping over that anyway.

[KARLI] Yeah, it's the invisible word. Yeah.

[JAMIE] Whereas if you're using like the growled, or she side or an action tag, it's giving you more insight into the character's personality, instead of just the arbitrary, they said.

[A.P.] Well, so the action tags I'm talking about are not the he sighed, he growled, he whatever, those things. Yeah, those things I actually dislike. I'm really finicky when it comes to dialogue. And if it's done really well, like nothing gets me sweatier, than just a really awesome conversation where it's just flowing. [Jamie chuckles] It's like, you know, punchy want to want to you know, who's talking like you said.

[KARLI] I love how much you come on here and talk about getting sweaty over things. Thank you so much.

[A.P.] I'm a sweaty man, what do you want me to tell you. [all laughing] And nothing upsets me more than poorly written dialogue, where it's just like,

[KARLI] Oh, shit, don't read any of my old work please. [laughing]

[A.P.] [chuckling] Okay.

[JAMIE] So can you give an example of an action tag that you're talking about?

[A.P.] Yeah, yeah. So it'd be like someone saying, "What are you doing here?" And then period, end of quotes, and then he gripped the edge of the counter while looking at her.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[A.P.] You know, so it's like—

[KARLI] Separate thought, but it's, it's expounding on what's happening with his emotions with that question, because like, there's so many different ways you can say, what are you doing here? Like, how does he actually feel when asking that question? You know, so. Absolutely.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it also helps one show an emotion of the character and two, give you like, define your space of what's happening?

[A.P.] Totally. Yeah, yeah, that's why I like them.

[KARLI] If you use it well, exactly, you can get a visual of what he—what the character is doing, wherever they are, and the physicality of their space and where they are in relation to the other characters. And all of that. Early days, I aggressively tagged my dialog, you would hate it all A.P., and it would make you really upset. [A.P. and Karli chuckle] But I mean, I do hope that I am really trying to practice that whole, really trying to make sure that the characters and everything is very clear. And who's talking so that I can tag as little as possible because when reading, I don't love dialogue tags, I don't love the, no, like especially I feel like rom—romance and Y.A., they use a lot of the, he growled, and I'm like, this is I saw a meme the other day. And they said, this is a romance book, not the animal kingdom. Okay? [laughs] It's just I—

[A.P.] How do you growl a word, also?

[KARLI] I don't understand the obsession using those things. Like, let's see, let's use the other let's use the action tags to act like an action sentence or phrase afterwards, than using these things over and over and over again.

[JAMIE] It's funny that we've been like using growled and sighed because those are like, even though I've been saying they sighed, I'm like, you can't really say a word like a sigh is an action. Like you can whisper a word.

[JAMIE] [sighing] Hello.

[KARLI] [sighing] Jamie. I sighed a word. [A.P. and Karli laugh] You're welcome.

[JAMIE] I just feel like it's a weird thing to say just personally. [laughing]

[KARLI] It is it's fair. And I think, I don't necessarily think never use those. I have seen them used where I don't mind it. I would say, be careful with those. All of your tags should not be those things because I think they slow readers down. And there are better ways to get across what you're trying to do.

[JAMIE] Also, if there's like, if you very specifically use something in an important spot, it can be impactful, but not if you use it all the time.

[KARLI] Exactly. It loses its—

[JAMIE] And that goes for like a lot of different words.

[A.P.] And to play devil's advocate a little bit, even though I personally don't like it. That kind of stuff is a staple of some genres, like you said romance and Y.A. and some people do expect that when they're reading those genres. So that's more about knowing your genre and your audience. And you know, it's fine. It's not for me, I don't like that but—

[JAMIE] But that is part of it.

[KARLI] That is part of it. And you—that is correct. Thank you for bringing that up.

[JAMIE] And if you haven't already listened to it, go back and listen to our episode on genre expectations. [A.P. chuckles] Which hasn't come out yet, A.P., but we just recorded it. [chuckles]

[A.P.] I was like, hmm, I don't remember that one.

[KARLI] In that though, um, the whole making dialogue sound natural and not contrived, I think those words kind of make the dialogue feel contrived. It—just that's my, that's my take when I'm reading it, is that I feel like it's being forced to fit a genre expectation than it is feeling like something that would actually happen in this scenario. I mean actually happen in air quotes. We're, it's fantasy, but you know what I mean?

[A.P.] Totally. A hundred percent. I agree with you completely. That's part of why I don't really like Y.A. and romance as genres, because there is an element of like melodrama and like, there's like a lack of verisimilitude that doesn't really jive with what I look for. Some people go in and like that escapism and like the like, stylistic choice and the kind of like, literary formatting that that gives you. But that's just not for me. It sounds unnatural. It sounds fake. And so it's hard for me to get into it.

[JAMIE] Yeah, that's a similar feeling.

[KARLI] I'm just, currently my latest fixation is and like, not necessarily in like I love it kind of fixation is Jay Kristoff's the vampire book, he wrote, I don't know if you either of you have read that at all.

[JAMIE] I've never read anything from him.

[A.P.] Me neither.

[KARLI] I can see it being a stylistic choice for your book. But if it slows readers down, I mean, it slowed me down reading the way that he tags his dialogue. And that sort of thing is is very much that. He's even said on his Instagram stories that he gets, like, the feedback from his editors trying to change everything that he says to they said, or, you know, he said, she said, whatever. He loves the he growled he, you know, roared, he mumbled, like he loves that stuff. And and obviously, his fans do too, because, you know, they come in droves for it.

[A.P.] Yeah, he has rabid fans for sure.

[KARLI] Yeah. So it's just interesting to me. I think it just comes down to you know, it comes down to taste when it when during these things.

[A.P.] Yeah, like, I'm, I'm a very judgy bitch.

[JAMIE] That's why we get along. [A.P. chuckles]

[A.P.] But I, for years, have been training myself to be like, dude, that's just not for you. And it's okay that's not for you. And I feel like I maybe extended my life a little bit by not stressing myself out about that kind of stuff.

[KARLI] There's nothing wrong with people liking that. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's just that it may not be for somebody else. And that's okay, too.

[JAMIE] To be clear. Like, I think it's fine to be a judgy bitch, as long as you keep your mouth shut.

[A.P.] [chuckles] Yeah. Keep that shit to yourself. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Just because you're a judgy bitch doesn't mean you have to like shit on anybody else's stuff.

[A.P.] For sure.

[KARLI] Being a judgy bitch and an asshole I think are two different things.

[A.P.] And I'm both. [all laugh]

[JAMIE] It depends on what field we're talking about, what aspect? [all laugh]

[KARLI] Yeah, that's true.

[JAMIE] I've never met a more supportive writer friend than A.P.

[KARLI] I've never met a more supportive asshole than you. [laughing]

[JAMIE] You can't be that big of an asshole.

[A.P.] I gotta balance it all out.

[KARLI] Keep people guessing.

[A.P.] Yeah. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Let me read the note that I wrote before. Like we don't we didn't plan. Don't just think about what needs to be said for your story. [Karli laughs] Think about how people actually talk to each other. It's a back and forth. My biggest pet peeve, I have so many pet peeves, [A.P. laughs] there's no way to actually say which one's my biggest pet peeve.

[KARLI] Because there's so many that share that spot. It's like a shelf with knickknacks, it's cluttered.

[JAMIE] When characters are talking at each other instead of to each other.

[JAMIE] There's—it'd be quicker for me to say what's not a pet peeve. But when it comes to dialogue, the thing that drives me the most crazy, is when there's like not a coherent progression of conversation. I have read books where it's like, these people are having two different conversations like they're not even talking to each other. Because they're too busy trying to push the story forward. This person asks a question, and this person says something completely unrelated. But the person who originally asked the question never tries to circle them back around or get an answer for that question. It just drives me nuts, when like all we're doing is just saying things, but we're not actually talking to each other.

[JAMIE] And there are situations where it might be like an argument or somebody's being evasive, but when you're trying to have that back and forth to make characters feel like real people, that does not work. [chuckles]

[A.P.] So I think this is where dialogue gets really complicated. You always get told, you know, you want your dialogue to serve a purpose and you want to advance a plot and like do characterization and yada yada yada. And then you also get told, you know, make your dialogue realistic and blah, blah. But if you listen to how people actually talk, like if you listen to us, it's like um, uh, uh, and we're like cutting each other off, and like that would be absolutely horrendous to try and read. And so you have to find this kind of fine line between advancing the plot and having a word for fiction and not making it sound like it's just talking heads being like, "Well, you know, Bob," like, it's, it's complicated, it's hard. What you just said about like characters talking at each other and past each other. Obviously, anything can be done well and poorly. I actually really like when a conversation is done well, where the, the two people in the conversation have their own goals, and they're trying to like have their own like, "No, I want to talk about this." And like, "I want to talk about this." And so they're like talking at and around and past each other.

[KARLI] But as the writer, you have tools to call attention to that's what's happening, instead of making it seem like that's normal, and then not addressing it in any way.

[JAMIE] Done well, I think that that can be great. You have to know enough about the characters in the story to understand that that's being done on purpose, as opposed to just it, this happened on accident. Now, I don't know why we're having this conversation. [laughing]

[A.P.] Yeah, I think my tolerance for meandering conversations is probably higher. And I can just like, you know, if two people are talking, and it's like, kind of interesting, and like, it's showing cool character stuff, even if it's like a really quiet slow moment, I'm kind of okay with that. For me, it's on the other end, where it's like, like, ask answer conversations, where it's like, "What are we doing now?" "Well, we have to do this." [Jamie chuckles] And that's just like...

[JAMIE] That's another part of that, like, conversations that are just for plot. Like, all we're doing is moving the plot forward? Because I mentioned like, where it's like, seems like they're not talking to each other. But that can mistake can also be made. Like while they are talking to each other. It's just not interesting.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[A.P.] Or they're doing like a recap or something. Or it's like explaining elements of the world and how it works to someone who would know how that works in the world.

[JAMIE] Or there's nothing like in a TV show, when people walk on screen, and they say things like, "you're my brother." I always hate that. [all chuckling]

[A.P.] Brother, what are you doing here?

[JAMIE] Well, "I love you, because you're my brother." I'm like, whoever actually talks like that?

[A.P.] Who the f*@% says that? [[A.P.] and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE] Like, I know I'm your brother, what's wrong with you?

[KARLI] Did you hit your head ?

[JAMIE] More like, what are you doing, you shithead? [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah, what you were saying, [A.P.], about how people talk in real life. So take a minute and listen to this episode, and then read the transcript.

[A.P.] Oh god.

[KARLI] Because what's actually happening is we're talking over each other and interrupting each other. And I do my very, [laughs] my damnedest to separate out. And Jamie actually does a really fantastic job originally in editing as much of that out as possible and shifting the dialogue so that people can actually hear what the other person is saying. But sometimes there's no helping it and it's all garbled.

[JAMIE] A transcript would be completely impossible. I keep us from talking over each other, just so you guys can hear everything everybody's saying.

[KARLI] Right. And every once in a while when somebody's laughing or something like that, I have to move things in the transcript so that you can hear the kind of order of how we're talking so that it makes sense. And so if you listen to the podcast and read the transcript, you can see that happening. Don't do that in your book. Like don't, [laughs] don't up be—it's a man,

[A.P.] Yeah, you can't.

[KARLI] It's a, it's a nightmare.

[JAMIE] Because it's like you want to make it sound real. But you don't, you want to make it sound like what readers are used to reading, that you don't actually want to make it sound like humans talk in real life, because even in movies, they make sure that they do that unless it's a choice. I think in a different episode I mentioned like the show, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, they're always yelling and talking over each other. There's a couple of movies that do this. Often they're like family movies with like groups and family where they're all together. And something like is either like a party or exciting or tragic in a hospital. And people are just cutting each other off.

[KARLI] Arguing over the dinner table type of thing.

[JAMIE] Yeah. And you can have cutting off in a in a book and that sort of thing. It's like but you don't really want it to sound like we'll actually sound.

[KARLI] It's the, it's the making choices about when to do those things. If you want to cut somebody off, you absolutely can do that. But you can't have that in every single conversation. You can, but you can't do that the whole book or you're going to lose people. So that's a choice.

[JAMIE] Or maybe you have a character that consistently cuts people off. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Are they named Karli? [A.P. and Karli chuckle]

[A.P.] Yeah, but how often are we actually talking to to our friends and we're not even saying complete sentences because we know what the other person is saying and where we're going. You just say, you just like building joke after joke after joke; and it's like nonsensical if you transcript it, it's just—

[JAMIE] Gobbledygook.

[A.P.] It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, it's just like what the f*@% are these people actually saying? So trying to do that—I mean, obviously, that's mega realistic for life. But for reading, that's horrible. It's a nightmare.

[KARLI] We can't infer characters inside jokes if you don't fill us in on them first. And so I mean, sure, maybe later on, you can like do a little inside joke thing, but you have had to set it up earlier.

[A.P.] Mhm, yep.

[JAMIE] And that's—yeah, definitely. One thing I noticed early on with editing, or like so many times, you start a sentence, and then you just stop the sentence, because you were like the point was across. So why would I finish my sentence?

[A.P.] Like trail off into nothingness? And you're like... [vague noises]

[JAMIE] And so on. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah, I think it's really difficult to look at natural sounding dialogue for writing novels, from watching movies and TV shows, because so much is inferred based on body language and tone. And those are tools that are very difficult to convey in writing effectively without being overly wordy or too on the nose.

[A.P.] Yeah, but good god do TV and movies also get real shitty dialogue.

[KARLI] I mean, it happens. [all chuckle]

[A.P.] Like, a vast majority of the time. I'm like, who the f*@% wrote this. I've been swearing a lot this episode, I hope that's not an issue. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Figure it out later.

[A.P.] Fix it in post.

[JAMIE] Just like saying, “I'm your brother,” or somebody explaining something where you're like, this person knows this. Why are they telling it to this person? Because in real life, I'd be like, yeah, you told me that yesterday.

[A.P.] You won't even let them get like to the third or fourth word you just be like, yeah, yeah, you already told me.

[JAMIE] No, exactly. But let me explain to you this very common knowledge that everybody in this world knows. And I know, you know, but I'm gonna say it again, [dramatic whisper] for the readers.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah, find another way to get that information across.

[A.P.] Or just don't tell the readers. They can figure it out on their own. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] I think things that are inferred are undervalued sometimes. Where it's like, oh, I didn't know this part. Or it's like, well, if you didn't pick up that part, you didn't pick up that part. Maybe some people do and maybe some people don't.

[KARLI] I am a major fan of people having to infer when they read. To the point where I am way too vague when I write.

[A.P.] [laughing] Me too.

[KARLI] And my, my critique partner and readers have to ask me, like, what does this even mean? [A.P. chuckles] I don't understand what you're talking about. So I have to, I have to go back in post and add more. I'm an over writer in some ways, like, you know, world building. But in the other ways I am an underwriter because I want people to—I love an element of mystery. I like for people to wonder what's happening in like, an exciting way. But a lot of times I leave way too much out and they're like, I don't know what the f*@% is going on. [laughing]

[A.P.] Yeah, I get that note often. I get two notes all the time. The first one is, bro, you got to explain all these terms. Like no one knows what any of these things are, you got to give us something. And the second one is stop repeating yourself. [all chuckle]

[KARLI] I can neither confirm nor deny that I have received both of those notes. [laughs] Regularly.

[JAMIE] I have a question for you guys. It's not exactly dialogue related. But since you had mentioned, like, you have to explain these terms, are those usually terms that you've made up or terms that exist?

[A.P.] Terms I made up.

[KARLI] Okay, because that is a fair note.

[JAMIE] Fair note.

[A.P.] Totally, absolutely. A hundred percent.

[JAMIE] But at the same time, depending on what it is... inferred. I mean, like a made up curse can be inferred. Like that's a big thing is you never actually say it means like, this is my version of the F bomb.

[KARLI] Frack.

[JAMIE] Or whatever. But I was just wondering about that, because I've had a couple of notes lately, where like, people are like, you have to explain this. I'm like this is a normal thing that exists in our real world.

[A.P.] Look it up.

[KARLI] Google it. [all laugh]

[A.P.] It's like if you come across a word you don't know in something you're reading, you stop and look it up.

[JAMIE] That's part of learning.

[A.P.] That's how you learn. Yeah.

[JAMIE] Just being a reader. Okay, thank you. [A.P. chuckles]

[KARLI] All right. So this next thing that I want to talk about, Jamie's going to have to ask clarifying questions, as per usual, because I don't know how to ask a distinctive question about it. It's an observation that I've made that I want to talk about the idea surrounding it.

[JAMIE] Vague concepts and theories.

[A.P.] Cool. [laughs]

[KARLI] Vague concepts. It's my favorite. I have noticed that the two of you have very distinctive voices in how you like to write things. Your narrative style. And your dialogue is also very engaging and interesting and feels different than your narrative voice. And I'm curious if there are ways you go about doing that, or if that's just something that happens for you.

[JAMIE] Well, thank you, first of all.

[A.P.] Yes, thank you.

[JAMIE] Very kind words.

[A.P.] Do you want the helpful answer or the truth? [A.P. and Jamie laugh]

[KARLI] I want, I want both.

[A.P.] Okay.

[KARLI] Give me the truth first.

[A.P.] The truth is, it just happens. [all laughing]

[JAMIE] Same.

[A.P.] It's just—

[KARLI] God damnit. [A.P. laughs] You guys suck. [A.P. and Jamie laugh] I'm, I'm done. I'm out.

[A.P.] No,no, no, okay.

[KARLI] I—I wanted this podcast [Jamie laughing] episode, so you could teach me your ways, and you're not helping me!

[A.P.] So the more helpful truth is that it just happens because I've been doing this for years. You know, the, what was it, 10,000 words or a million hours or whatever the thing is, and just over the years of writing, and trying things out and submitting things and seeing what works, I feel like I've kind of got to a place where I have an author's voice in my writing, and then the dialogue stuff is just, again, practice. Like this character. And this is kind of how I envisioned them in my head and how they would respond. And usually my characters aren't depressed, nihilistic authors, you know, so it sounds different. [all laugh]

[KARLI] I love that answer.

[JAMIE] That's beautiful. Yeah, the truth is like, oh, it just feels like something that happens. But to be clear, there are definitely different situations where those things are going to come easier as a writer. P.O.V. is a big deal. If I'm doing a first person narrative, my, my writing style is going to seem like it matches the character because that character is telling the story. Even though there is like a point of, this is narrative style and this is a dialogue. The third person narrative is where like, that becomes more like, this is narrative. This is dialogue. I think like A.P. said, it comes more naturally the more practice you have. And so with my quote unquote, narrative style, I also, depending on the project, adjust what that style is for the project. And there are some books where I'm like, okay, if I'm writing the narration part, this is me telling a story. And as soon as I get to a dialogue, if I've constructed a character properly, I like—it's like that writers are many people. I am not myself writing, I am this character saying what that character would say. And even with the the more stylistic narrative stuff that I've worked on in recent years, it's almost like, I'm not me telling a story. I'm this specific style narrator telling the story. So you know, like, you just become different people. [chuckles]

[A.P.] Yeah. So. So this, I agree completely with what you're saying and makes me think of a question for the two of you. Do either of you or both of you have like a constant running inner monologue? Like, I.R.L? [Karli laughs sardonically]

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Yeah. So I just recently figured out that some people don't.

[A.P.] Me too!

[A.P.] That's crazy!

[A.P.] Like, what?! Inner silence? Like, what must that be like?

[KARLI] Peaceful. So peaceful.

[A.P.] Yeah. [laughing]

[JAMIE] But yes, I do have an inner monologue running 24 hours a day.

[KARLI] Yeah. Sometimes it's not a monologue. I am several people in my brain. [Jamie laughs] Having a dialogue.

[A.P.] Yeah. And I feel like that's helped me with my dialogue. And even with what you were saying to me about like, first person P.O.V. and all that, it's like, I have the inner monologue who's like narrating the stuff. And then I have the actual things that I'm saying, and they're different but the, but the same voice. It's still me. But you know, filtered through, these are actually being said out loud versus being thought.

[JAMIE] And that's where I feel like that, like when you do it for so long. That's why it feels like it, well, it just kind of comes out of me at some point. I don't know. Because it's a hard thing to put into words.

[KARLI] My personal struggle comes in with the fact that my inner dialogue sounds like what we're recording, there's people talking, I mean, I'm talking over myself, I'm interrupting thoughts are starting and stopping. And so learning to separate out what's actually happening, what's like the undercurrent of what's happening in my brain is an exhausting endeavor sometimes. So sometimes I feel like that's how, one of the reasons why I struggle with the dialogue in writing is because when I start writing that's how it comes out. And I'm struggling to figure out where I'm—where am I going with all of this? I struggle getting to the point. And then going back and having to finesse that to make it reflect that.

[JAMIE] That's why I think, even though I know it's not always an option being like in a focused state, being in a quiet room, having my phone off or less distractions can help with those sorts of things.

[KARLI] Quiet room, what is that? [laughs]

[JAMIE] The more you can minimize the distractions and focus that can potentially help you get more writing done and get better writing done.

[A.P.] I go the opposite way, I go with really loud music in earbuds to just like, drown out everything else. And then it's just—

[KARLI] That is what works for me as well. Because the music, it's like, sure it's loud, and there's stuff going on in the music, but it's one thing, and if it's loud enough, I have to focus on it, I have to listen to it. But then that also when I get in a flow of writing that hits the background.

[A.P.] Mhmm totally.

[KARLI] And it keeps the thoughts quiet, except for what I'm actually doing. And yeah, I agree.

[A.P.] It's like the pain gate theory. You know, it's loud enough that it's just—

[KARLI] You can't—

[A.P.] It's the only thing and nothing else gets through.

[KARLI] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] It's kind of like a white noise.

[A.P.] Yeah, yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah. One of the tools that people use often, in order to get distinctive character voices, is they like to throw in dialect and accents. And I find it to be a challenging thing to agree with that as a choice. Because it becomes problematic very quickly. Give me your takes on that, like I don't really have questions. I just—I'm like dropping things and being like, let's discuss. What are your thoughts?

[A.P.] Dialects and accents have been done really poorly by the wrong people.

[KARLI] Yes.

[A.P.] A lot of the time. I think they absolutely can and should be done by the people that know what they're talking about, know how to like, do it properly. I think, Marlon James, what's that giant book he wrote, that had to do with like Jamaica, it's like historical fiction. I forget the name of it, but it has—

[JAMIE] Black Leopard, Red Wolf?

[A.P.] No, no, it's not that one. It's I think it's about Bob Marley. Or around that time. I haven't read it. But a couple of my friends have read it and really enjoyed it.

[KARLI] A Brief History of Seven Killings?

[A.P.] Yes. And obviously, he knows what he's doing. He knows what he's talking about, and was able to do it well. And that shouldn't be changed by an editor. And it shouldn't be clarified for you know, a white audience or whatever. But so many times it's a white person doing an accent. Somehow.

[KARLI] For flavor.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] And it just doesn't come across that way. It—yeah, I completely agreed.

[A.P.] Yeah, so I've seen it done poorly, so often, that even when I'm writing my own stuff, and I'm like, oh, this person speaks in this way. I describe how they're speaking and just write it out. And then let the person—

[KARLI] Autofill.

[A.P.] Read it in whatever voice, yeah.

[JAMIE] The first thing I was wondering about was like, well, when it comes to like, fantasy... Specifically, in my mind, I'm like, well, The Stormlight Archives, they've got like, dozens of different cultures. And a lot of the times kind of, like you said, A.P., where it's like it just says in an Alethi accent, and then it's written normal.

[A.P.] Yep.

[JAMIE] Of course, when you listen to the audiobook, it's changed a little bit. I enjoy those types of things in the fantasy world, because it's like, there's a whole different culture, they have a different way of speaking.

[KARLI] Yes.

[A.P.] Totally.

[JAMIE] Like, we don't all just sound like we're from the U.S.

[KARLI] Right.

[A.P.] And I think the Parshmen have, like a really specific way of speaking too, right?

[JAMIE] Yeah, the Parshmen have a basically a different sentence structure that they use. And then they also have a different aspect to their communication, that's not speech related.

[A.P.] Yeah. And I thought that like, that's done great.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's done really very well.

[A.P.] It was awesome.

[JAMIE] And then you can even do it not even just talking about accents. But talking about dialect like Hagrid in Harry Potter. The way he drops some of his, what are they like, g's. Or, you know, there can be smaller things that aren't necessarily appropriating a whole culture. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. I think the challenge that I've seen even in fantasy though, is a lot of writers um, write medieval white fantasy, and so then other cultures are automatically—even though it's a different race, quote, unquote, for their fantasy world—they are mass appropriating a culture in the real world. And do, if the challenge with with, even with fantasy comes in to play where you're not being like, well, this is the Asian country. And this is an African country. And like, you can use inspiration from the real world. That's what we all do. Like it's impossible to not. We're informed by the world we live in. But also utilizing one country or one culture for your fantasy world, and then using their accent or dialect. I just, I like—I just caution people in—with The Stormlight Archives, I haven't read that yet. I'm working, I'm actually just starting but—the like what you're saying where they use a completely different sentence structure, and I'm sure he frames it with the way their communication style is. So it is a new and unique and fun thing, not appropriating something that is in our world.

[A.P.] Yeah, it's, it's so easy. It's so easy to have characters just become caricatures at best, or just like awful racist stereotypes at worse. That's just lazy. It's lazy writing.

[KARLI] Yeah, it's lazy writing. I figured we would all have a similar perspective on that, but I felt it was important to discuss because it is something that is utilized so much in dialogue, because as writers we really, really, really want our characters to all sound different. So we're like, I'll, give this one an accent. You know...

[JAMIE] I feel like there's so much more you can do besides accent and ethnicity and changing the way people speak. Like even speech patterns are different regionally, and then even just the way some people think about things. They frame them in different ways than other people. So that when they go to communicate, they're not communicating the same way this other character would. So there's a lot you can do. It's so much, there's so much to unpack. [chuckles]

[A.P.] Kind of building on that, I find that even if you're using like, a Cockney accent, or like a Scottish accent, like you're not gaining as much as you think you are. You know, like, you're really slowing me down with this. Like, if it's in a movie or TV show, like you could hear it, it's a lot easier process. But when you're trying to read it, you're just like, you just like hit this wall of like, alright, well now I'm reading a stereotypical cockney accent and trying to figure out what they're actually saying.

[KARLI] Yeah, and that's not helpful. Like it just stereotyping in general, like, just not not good. And that's what ends up coming across most of the time when you're trying to do like excessively stylistic choices with the way you're writing your dialogue. I completely agree with the standpoint of just write it, you know, if you want to drop a g at the end of some words for a certain character, like I don't see the harm in small, small things like that, if you're framing the character around it effectively. But, you know, the big stuff, yeah, like you're not gaining as much as you think. Agreed. Guys, thanks so much for telling me basically nothing that I wanted to hear [A.P. and Jamie laugh] in the sense that you're telling me that I just need to practice writing dialogue more, so thanks—

[A.P.] Just get good.

[KARLI] Thanks for nothin'.

[JAMIE] You're welcome.

[KARLI] Uh, no. [A.P. and Karli laugh] No, thank you. It was a really fun conversation.

[A.P.] Well, here you want to tip? You want something to help?

[KARLI] I mean, I was going to ask for your recommendation next. Is this?

[A.P.] Well, the recommendation is different.

[KARLI] Oh, so this is free? Oooo.

[A.P.] Actionable advice. Bonus free stuff.

[KARLI] I like it.

[A.P.] Read your dialogue out loud, like read everything out loud, because that's good. But like your dialogue, especially if you're reading it aloud, you're like, oh, no one talks this way. This sounds bizarre. [Jamie laughs]

[KARLI] If you trust somebody enough to read it out loud for you, because what you will also do even if you read it out loud, sometimes you read it with a preconceived notion in your head of how you want it to come across, the inflection, the tone, everything and having somebody else who doesn't know what you were trying to do read it

[A.P.] Stumble through your words.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Humbling.

[A.P.] Yeah, that’s—yeah.

[KARLI] Humbling indeed. [A.P. chuckles] A.P., do you have our Two Cent Recommendation?

[A.P.] I do have a Two Cent Recommendation. On the topic of dialogue. I wanted to share a director who I think does dialogue really well. And that is Guy Ritchie. [Karli gasps]

[KARLI] [whispers] I love Guy Ritchie.

[JAMIE] Karli's getting sweaty.

[KARLI] [dramatic whispers] He makes me sweaty. [[A.P.] laughs] His movies make me sweaty.

[A.P.] Yeah, you can pick apart his movies and like some are better than others and all that. But his stylistic choices when it comes to dialogue, I think are super solid because it's believable, but it's also in character and kind of musical and fun and like plays to the medium really well.

[KARLI] Witty.

[A.P.] Yeah. And like everyone's quippy, but you're not like, it's not like a Marvel movie where everyone says one liners like they are actually genuinely funny people being like, genuine. The one conversation that jumps to mind is during King Arthur: Legend of the Sword. At the beginning of the movie, they're like explaining what happened in the morning to like a guardsman and it gets—they like cut into each other to interrupt and cut and fast forward and all that it's just done great.

[KARLI] Love that recommendation. Guy Ritchie is one of my favorites.

[A.P.] For sure, yeah. I love, I love his movies.

[KARLI] [whispering] Awesome.

[A.P.] [whispering] Are we whispering now?

[KARLI] [whispering] The rest of this podcast will be whispers.

[A.P.] [whispering] A.S.M.R.

[JAMIE] I'm gonna go. [all laughing]

[KARLI] It got awkward. You can find A.P. @apthayer on Instagram and Twitter. You can find him at apthayer.com. Read his short stories. They're fantastic.

[JAMIE] Thanks for being here. Again.

[KARLI] Thank you. So very much.

[A.P.] Thanks for having me back. Always a genuine pleasure.

[JAMIE] [all laughing] Why were we both so silent after he said that?

[A.P.] Okay.

[JAMIE] We'll see you later this season.

[A.P.] Perfect.

[KARLI] You can find us @theactbreak_podcast on Instagram, @theactbreak_ on Twitter.

[JAMIE] There is a transcript available for this episode in the description. We'll talk to you next week.

[KARLI] Bye. You're not gonna say bye, A.P.?

[A.P.] Bye. [all laughing]

[JAMIE] He did a visual bye. A great medium for podcasting.

[A.P.] [laughing] They can see me.

Genre Expectations - Transcript

[JAMIE] I don't know if you've watched it yet. But that Explained on Netflix, it's like little mini docs.

[KARLI] No, I need you to send me that. And I need you to send me those TED talks you were telling me about because I keep forgetting.

[JAMIE] Yeah, the little mini documentaries, like some are better than others. But the one on time I suggest everybody watch because it's just really interesting. Especially after like, the ole uh...

[KARLI] The last several years.

[JAMIE] The last two years.

[KARLI] Listen, save your recommendations for the end, okay? The Two Cent Recommendation portion. We don't have any space in this free form podcast that we've come up with the structure all on our own, we cannot change it at any time.

[JAMIE] I feel like I'm just trying to help the world. [Karli laughs] I always like to emphasize my power, like I'm going to impact more than like, 30 people. That's probably more than I'm really reaching.

[KARLI] Oh, and then those people impact other people. You're such a humanitarian, for sure.

[JAMIE] I'm basically a philanthropist. [Karli chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah, sure, mhmm.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI]  Hello, good insert time of day here. And welcome back to The Act Break, your third favorite podcast. I'm Karli or K.C. Ash, procrastinating writer extraordinaire.

[JAMIE] And I'm Jamie Redact. I don't even know what I am anymore.

[KARLI] [chuckles] That tracks.

[JAMIE] I'm just really excited that we're your third favorite podcast.

[KARLI] I know, right? I figured that was a really good number. We can't possibly be everybody's first favorite. There's so many good podcasts out there. We are potentially someone's second favorite. Maybe but probably not.

[JAMIE] I'm just happy to have placed. I'll take bronze any day.

[KARLI] Right? I was gonna say third or fourth. But I was like third sounds so much better.

[JAMIE] When like the reality is like a top 10. If we even broke anyone's top 10 I'd be pretty, pretty excited. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Right? Exactly. Like I'd be I'd be cool with number 10. Yeah, my standards are real low these days. [both chuckle] All right. All right. So let's get to the topic. Today we're going to have a bit of a discussion about genre and expectations therein. When you stroll into your favorite bookstore, and you walk to the science fiction section, what do you expect to see there probably like, space miners and aliens, right? [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] Space miners. [Karli laughs] You know how I feel about space miners!

[KARLI] I know you feel about them, which is why I had to bring it up. [Jamie sighs] You're welcome. Um, you know, fantasy, definitely magical unicorns, obviously. And you know, mysteries, like, Let The Bodies Hit The Floor. When you walk into the bookstore, you know what to expect when you're walking to a certain section, and what those genres are going to provide to you. They are a structure by which you know, a story is going to be delivered to you.

[JAMIE] Yeah, genre expectations help us pick books that we are more likely to enjoy. Because we are getting into something that we know, horror, I know that it's going to be a little more dark, a little more gritty. Science fiction, it's going to have some sort of weird thing that seems impossible, but maybe it's possible. I don't know. Romance, somebody's going to fall in love.

[KARLI] Get their heart broken, and then put it back together again.

[JAMIE] Yeah. And when you like a certain type of book, genre expectations help you just find more books that you're going to like like that.

[KARLI] Absolutely. It's a signal to readers. It's like a forecast of what to expect whether star showers or a bloody hurricane.

[JAMIE] Eek. [Karli laughs] Sounds like a bad way to go.

[KARLI] I figured you'd like that. So within that, as readers, we have expectations of our genres. We go in wanting something specific.

[JAMIE] I rely on genre expectations because I do read genre fiction 90% of the time. You mentioned space miners, [both laugh] which is like a running joke we have because for a long time, all of the science fiction's I was picking up set in space seemed like everybody was mining some planet for its resources. And I just got really sick of the trope. And so we always joke about that.

[KARLI] She did. She was—she rage quit a few a few things for that.

[JAMIE] I've have to talk to one more space manner. [Karli laughs] Oh my gosh. But when I feel like I'm in the mood for something dark. I know that there's like suspense-thriller that's gonna give me what I'm in the mood for. So, mood reader is like a big thing in the community where it's like, I can never set a TBR because I don't know how I'm gonna feel.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Genre expectations. Help the mood reader pick up what they want to read.

[KARLI] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Because it's like, I want an adventure.

[KARLI] Exactly.

[JAMIE] I want a romance. I want to be, I want to get hurt. I want to hurt inside. [laughs]

[KARLI] I want to walk away questioning my life. Yeah, absolutely. So having those expectations help you know whether or not you're going to be satisfied by that book. Usually, obviously, there's hopefully, obviously there's exceptions to that. But we'll get to that later. [chuckles] Obviously, some readers have more rigid expectations than others, which is where it gets a little bit squishy, I think. But as writers, we want to meet certain expectations within our genre.

[JAMIE] Yeah, on the writer side, I feel like genre expectations become much more important, much more important, because that is a promise you're making when you pitch your book as a mash up between this and that. There are things like, okay, like, let's try and put an example together. It's a mash up. Game of Thrones meets The Sopranos. So then, I'm automatically going to be like, alright, I expect it to be fantasy, maybe dragons. And then there's going to be a family involved, where they have like a family business of—

[KARLI] Crime lords of some kind, maybe. It's probably going to be gritty and violent. And yeah, absolutely. So it's like you can pick out those things. And know, the general things that are going to happen without the entirety of how it comes across.

[JAMIE] Yeah, well, the thing becomes, if you're going to pitch something that way, that tells the reader these expectations are now implemented onto the story.

[KARLI] Yeah, subconsciously, most of the time.

[JAMIE] That will also dictate how you market it, all these things become exponentially more important as a writer than really as a reader. Because as a reader, you're just like, oh, these helped me decide what books to pick up. But as a writer, you're trying to make good on promises, hook people, get more books sold, honestly.

[KARLI] Yeah. I mean, because as a writer, it's our job to tell a story plain and simple. Like that is our goal, to tell a story. And obviously, what kind of story we choose to tell is, is up to us. But if you walk in with no concept of genre expectation, that you're going to have a hell of a time marketing it, whether it's to an agent, because [chuckles] you best believe that's marketing. And or, or whether you're marketing it yourself, because you're self publishing or something's squishy in between. You have to understand what your genre expectations are, in order to market what you've written. I used to get really hung up on genre expectations. Let me take that back. Just do—roll that back. I still in my first draft get hung up on genre expectations. And it freezes me. But really, like that's something for the editing, when your next pass, making sure that you're meeting certain marks when you take a step back and look okay, like, what is this thing that I wrote? I mean, I have a vague idea. But I need to go back through and make sure like, is this actually the genre that I set out to be? What are the sub-genres that have either, I've purposefully put in or have trickled their way into I want them there. All of that.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Especially in the marketing of it. I feel like that's the easiest place to go wrong the fastest. All the things I've seen on online, like if there's things that they warn you against, it's marketing to the wrong group of readers. That's what you need people to read your stuff before, which we say all the time.

[KARLI] It's so true.

[JAMIE] Then it also becomes the battle of making good on the promises that you've given so that people feel satisfied enough that they are giving you good reviews, or not tearing you up like I picked this up thinking, you know, on the back cover, it tells me figure out the mystery [Karli laughs] of who murdered this person, along with your characters.

[KARLI] She's ripping on one of my favorite books again, we already did this episode!

[JAMIE] Well, if somebody didn't hear it, let me tell them whether it says it If it says on the back of the book, [chuckles] figure out who murdered this person. And by the end of the book, you're like, oh, it's they're not murdered, and I didn't get all the information—like it doesn't—

[KARLI] I couldn't possibly have figured it out.

[JAMIE] You literally made it impossible. And it didn't happen, how can something not happening be a sign?

[KARLI] [chuckles] You're not wrong.

[JAMIE] And that's not to say that when you go into writing a story that it needs to be cookie cutter, copy, paste, it does not have to do that. We're gonna get into the subversion of genre expectations in a bit, but it needs to be just the right amount. And that's part of the balance. And that's part of editing, that's not something you're going to achieve first go. Sometimes it's not something you're going to achieve your fourth or fifth go around. It's just something that has to balance over time. You just have to write it first.

[KARLI] Taking practice. Yeah, absolutely. Because with genre expectation, readers want certain things from a genre. But if you give them cookie cutter, if they're going to walk away going, it was fine.

[JAMIE] It was like every other one of these types of books.

[KARLI] It was like every other one of these types. Exactly. Exactly.

[JAMIE] And sometimes you want that. And sometimes you don't.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. And there is something to be said, for reading a book that you can predict. Sometimes I want that and need that in a comfort read when I'm feeling a certain kind of way.

[JAMIE] Mhmm.

[KARLI] And I genuinely enjoy a good cookie cutter from time to time. But the books that really stick with me and that really have a lasting impression are the ones that found a way to subvert my expectations of the genre.

[JAMIE] And to quote the quote from somebody who's quoting somebody else, and I couldn't figure out I couldn't I didn't.

[KARLI] You couldn't place it.

[JAMIE] Let's not lie, it's not that I couldn't find it. It's that I didn't take the time to go and look for it.

[KARLI] That tracks.

[JAMIE] But it's give them what they want, in a way they don't expect it.

[KARLI] Mmm. Yeah. Howard on Writing Excuses Podcast always talks about canned green beans and making them taste fresh.

[JAMIE] Good metaphor.

[KARLI] Yeah. It's good to set expectations as a writer, this is what you're gonna get. This is, this—I mean, that's really what your opening sequence is all about. You're setting up your story, you're saying this is what you're going to be in for. Is this for you? Is your your opening scene, really, I mean, obviously, all the way up to I think the climax, but even just the first scene, if people aren't into the first scene, they're going to put it down. So if you subvert all of the genre expectations, then you're no longer writing that specific genre.

[JAMIE] Right.

[KARLI] You can't subvert everything. It is a challenge to find the right things to subvert and the right things to leave in place. When you're writing something, do you have ideas of—like how, how do we decide what things to leave and what things to subvert?

[JAMIE] So I look at it this way. Let's say that doesn't matter what genre it let's just say you're writing genre fiction, we'll call it science fiction. Because usually, that's what I say, even when I'm talking about something else, because my brain automatically says science fiction. [Karli chuckles] Let's say that there are five things that you need in a science fiction, to to have expectations met. This is just, I'm just really randomly thinking off the top of this. So don't tear me up anyone. You need a likeable protagonist, you need a piece of technology, you need a antagonist who is evil. And there's a very specific thing I'm saying a likeable protagonist, some sort of evil entity. And at the end, you need a love interest, whatever, it could be anything. So you have five key points of a genre that you need to hit. If you are wanting to do something new, or twist something or change it. I would never suggest not reaching three of those key goals. You could change one or maybe even two. And it could be any of the one or two as long as you're still hitting the other three. So that's what I'm trying to say is you can't take away every column, you have to keep some of the columns in place. And you have to choose specifically, what's going to be the most impactful thing to change.

[KARLI] But even those columns that you keep in place, you can choose to look at them from an angle that that genre doesn't usually look at them from.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it whenever you're going about doing a subversion or trying to make it fresh, you don't want to go like you said, you don't want to go too far out. You don't want to go so far that you're no longer meeting any expectations.

[KARLI] Yeah, exactly. There are things that fit within a larger genre that go about it in completely different ways. But there's still that genre. For example, back to the future science fiction. It's also comedy adventure.

[JAMIE] Right. Right.

[KARLI] Okay. Then you have alien. Also science fiction, but that's horror. So it's like, just because it's science fiction doesn't mean that all science fiction looks exactly the same. And you can go about how you want to tell your story in completely different ways, based on your personal preference as a writer.

[JAMIE] Yeah, subverted expectations are on my mind a lot, because that's like, another quote is comedy is expectations subverted, you think you're gonna go left but you go, right.

[KARLI] Kansas City shuffle.

[JAMIE] Pretty much. In a good book, there should always be some sort of subversion in different aspects. And how you do it and what you do with genre expectations is up to you. There's no prescriptive advice that we could really give.

[KARLI] Because it's entirely I think, how people go about subverting expectation is part of writ—author voice.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's a it's uh heavily influenced by style. Often.

[KARLI] Yes, absolutely. It's hard, because you want to be like, Well, if you just do these things, then you can successfully subvert expectations. But they're really unfortunate. I mean, unfortunately, like for our delicate writer egos, there is no formula for that. But also, fortunately, there isn't a formula for that, which is why we can constantly go into stories and be excited and surprised and all of these things. Because if there was a formula, then it would no longer be surprising.

[JAMIE] My structure writer brain, I think that there are right answers [both chuckle] in story and plot. And so that I feel like also has to do with when you can subvert and when you can make a good because sometimes to make a good on a promise, it's the wrong answer for the story. It's the wrong answer for the characters arc, or where you've ended up. So that kind of sometimes, it ends up being where I end up subverting is where, yes, this would normally be where the two people fall in love at the end, or their, this is where the final kiss would be. That's just using that as an example.

[KARLI] Sure.

[JAMIE] But because of everything that our protagonist went through, she's realized something about herself, and she needs to not be with this person now. The expectation becomes the wrong answer for the character. It just feels like the wrong answer. In my head of the story, it doesn't fit.

[KARLI] Which entirely comes into play with writer preference. You know, I mean, there are a lot of writers out there that would completely disagree with you, they'd be like, that means I need to go back and change my character's arc so that she can fall in love.

[JAMIE] So yeah, cuz that's, if you want to do that then you do that.

[KARLI] I like how you said I shouldn't say this. And then you said the F word. So what were you planning to say before? [laughs]

[KARLI] Exactly. But for you, you're like, well, then that can't happen. And that's why we get such varied results within a certain genre and where we get subversion of expectation, and they might choose to suffer expectation elsewhere, instead of in that moment, and that's the moment that they choose to hold true to the genre standard. At the end of the day, it's your book, write it however the heck you want. But also, take a moment and go look at your genre, check the expectations of that genre, and decide where you're going to say, yep, that sounds like a great idea. And where you're going to say—I probably shouldn't say that. [chuckles] Are you gonna say F*@% 'em, and do your own thing.

[KARLI] No, I was planning on saying it. I said it anyways.

[JAMIE] Okay. You leaned into it.

[KARLI] I leaned into it. Sorry. [laughs]

[JAMIE] That's okay. I'll figure it out.

[KARLI] She's glaring daggers at me right now, too.

[JAMIE] I'm just waiting for you to ask me about my recommendation. [laughs]

[KARLI] Oh, sure. [Jamie laughs] Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah, I can do that. That's that would be good. That's at this portion of the podcast, insert recommendation here. Hey, Jamie?

[JAMIE] What?

[KARLI] Do you have a Two Cent Recommendation for us?

[JAMIE] I do. I actually have decided to do two.

[KARLI] Oh, two two cent recommendations you're getting. You're getting four cents worth of recommendations for the price of just one.

[JAMIE] Wow.

[KARLI] Nice work.

[JAMIE] We're really generous. Like I said, I'm a philanthropist. [Karli laughs] They're both going to be movies that I feel subvert but also hit on some of these things. And the first one is 500 Days of Summer with Joseph Gordon Levitt And Zoey Deschanel. You go in feeling like it's a romantic comedy, and many aspects of it feel that way. But subversions. And then it's a newer one that I actually just watched, and I'm sure a lot of people will be like, that sounds like a trash movie, but it was fun. And that's The Lost City with Sandra Bullock, Channing Tatum, [Karli gasps] and Daniel Radcliff.

[KARLI] I want to see that so bad! Oh, I saw the preview for that. Like, I don't care I'm in. I'm in. It looks ridiculous. [laughs]

[JAMIE] It was a really just like a fun adventure. But also had were you like, oh, I'm getting everything I would normally want out of this style of movie but subverted.

[KARLI] Yay, I love subverted expectation.

[JAMIE] I was surprised how much we [laughing] enjoyed it.

[KARLI] Nice. I'm so excited. Okay, well, thank you so much for listening. You can find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast on Twitter @theactbreak_. All of our other links are listed in the description of this episode. You can go to our website and sign up for newsletter. You can also find transcripts there. And if you're so inclined to support us more than just listening to us you can leave a review or check out our Ko-fi.

[JAMIE] Thanks for listening.

Star Wars Chat with Greta Valentine - Transcript

[JAMIE] This is like a side note, but kind of goes with our theme. I edit like if we're slurping our coffee and stuff, because I already edit out all of my heavy breathing.

[GRETA] Excellent.

[JAMIE] We used to work with a guy who called me Darth Vader, but we'd be in a morning meeting and I would just be standing next to him and he would look over and he'd be like, "Oh my god."

[JAMIE] [Karli imitates Darth Vader breathing]

[GRETA] Well, I'm here to contribute. [chuckles] I'm here to contribute some heavy breathing also.

[KARLI] Good. Good.

[JAMIE] I'm that meme. That really heavy cat that that's just heavy breathing. [all chuckle]

[GRETA] Yes. It's the worst ASMR ever. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, we like to make it as awkward as possible.

[GRETA] Yeah. It's like the subtitle of this podcast, right?

[KARLI] It's more fun that way.

[GRETA] The Act Break, super awkward for everyone.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE]  Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI]  Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] Welcome back to The Act Break where we sometimes have cool internet friends, come and talk to us about nerdy stuff. Which is what's happening today. I'm Karli and I will do my best not to quote Star Wars one liners this entire episode. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] And I'm Jamie. I am not—what's the equivalent of a Trekker, but for Star Wars? Do Star Wars people have a title?

[GRETA] Good question. I don't know if they do.

[KARLI] I don't think so. —

[GRETA] I don't think so.

[KARLI] Nerds. [Greta chuckles]

[GRETA] And I'm Greta, I'm also a speculative fiction author. And I have a bad feeling about this. [Jamie and Karli chuckle] I will be quoting Star Wars one liners.

[KARLI] Yes, I knew we picked the right person for this chat!

[JAMIE] This will be great. This is this'll be nice. You're like, I feel like you're part of the Star Wars fandom.

[GRETA] That's fair.

[JAMIE] And I don't personally identify as such.

[GRETA] Yeah, I have that. I can't I know we'll get into this. But I have kind of like a probably a different entry point than like a lot of people who consider themselves Star Wars fans

[KARLI] Ooo.

[GRETA] But we'll get into it.

[JAMIE] I'm so excited about that fact, because we have like, people who are varying levels of interest in it. And then also different perspectives of like you said, entry points. So.

[KARLI] Yeah, it's gonna be good.

[JAMIE] If you like Star Wars, hopefully this will be the episode to listen to. And a lot of people love Star Wars because it's super cool.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Well, I mean, I think you saying that you have a different entry point than most people like, that's just we just just start there. What was your entry point into Star Wars?

[GRETA] Yeah, so I did not grow up with the classic trilogy. I probably didn't even watch it until college, to be honest. I grew up like watching the prequels with my cousins. It was just like a fun adventure movie. And I won't tell you how old I was before my family, like even owned a TV. [all laugh] It was not like, we just we just kind of like, went over to our cousin's watch like adventure movies. So I watched the prequels. I watched some of them coming out in the theaters. Yeah, I eventually, like went back and watched the classic trilogy. But yeah, the prequels were definitely my entry point.

[KARLI] Cool.

[JAMIE] And it also sounds like it was an experience like you were with your cousins, you were having fun, you were young. It's like one of those formative core memories.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] That's cool.

[KARLI]  That's that's really, really cool. Jamie, what was your entry point into Star Wars?

[JAMIE] Um, little background for my family, we're not super outdoorsy. We don't like camp. My dad doesn't do like traditional dad hobbies. We watched movies. Like that was the thing that we did. We went to the theater and watched movies. And when the original series was re-released in 1997, I remember being in line. I think there were like three people in front of us. But we had been standing in line all day. I was whatever age I was, but it was just like part of what we did. I think we like even drove two hours to get there. And so I remember seeing A New Hope, which is the first one right? I'm not screwing that up. That's how, that's how—

[KARLI] That's how not in the fandom...

[JAMIE] Unsure I am of keeping it all straight. [Greta chuckles] So I remember seeing it in theaters. And then like the next month, of course, we did the same thing because the next one came out. So I always grew up with the original series. And then the resurgence of how exciting it was when the prequels came out. And all that.

[KARLI] That's awesome. For me, it was the original trilogy. My parents had some nerdy friends because my parents were not nerds. And they had this really beautiful box VHS set was like gold and black—

[JAMIE] It's got gold foiling.

[KARLI] Yeah, like Darth Vader's mask. It was very dramatic looking. It was very, very cool. And they let us borrow it. And then we loved it so much, they let us keep it.

[JAMIE] They're all "you poor deprived children!" [laughs]

[KARLI] "You poor, deprived children. Here, have some nerdery." Yeah, and I loved them immediately. I was all in, I am printed immediately and hard. [laughs]

[GRETA] I will say that I had probably like a resurgence and interest in Star Wars, like during college, just because like, I was taking anthropology classes. Like that was my major and we talked a lot about myth in some of my intro classes. And so like, we talked a lot about Star Wars and The Matrix as kind of examples of like, mono myth and like stories that repeat across cultures, kind of like from a Western perspective, but kind of like the hero's journey and everything and Joseph Campbell, and like, how much of an impact that had on the edits for the original Star Wars trilogy. So I think that was like also something that spoke to like my nerdy, myth loving soul, like at that time, and I was like, okay, like, Yeah, this is a fandom, I'm gonna stick around and like, watch whatever they make.

[KARLI] I want to have taken that class. That sounds fantastic.

[GRETA] Yeah, it was, it was an awesome class.

[JAMIE] And like, nowadays, we're always like, oh, the chosen one. But it's because of things like that, like Joseph Campbell, like, they are very impactful stories. And these are the stories that kind of shaped generations. Yeah. And that's why even though there are times where some of those stories feel contrived or forced, we're still gonna like those stories when they're done well.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Because they just speak to us on a level of like, a nostalgic level.

[KARLI] Yeah, reminiscent of that, yeah.

[JAMIE] There are certain fandoms…

[GRETA] Oh my gosh.

[JAMIE] That are very adamant [Karli laughs] about what they believe, or canon.

[GRETA] Yep.

[JAMIE] Or things like that. And Star Wars is one of those fandoms.

[KARLI] Yes.

[GRETA] It is.

[JAMIE] And so maybe you won't agree with everything I say, but I'm fine with that.

[GRETA] Yeah, I feel like if I don't have an opinion that like, annoys someone then I probably am not being honest. [all laugh]

[KARLI] That is a great way to put that. Absolutely. Yeah, I had a conversation recently with a couple of people that are way more into Star Wars than I am, like, they've read all of the books and comics and everything. And they like they know, the lore and the fandom like the back of their hand. And I'm like, I don't know, I don't know, all that stuff. So my opinions are formed based on just my own perspectives, which is, you know, everybody, and so like, I can't possibly make informed choices on things that I've not read.

[GRETA] Yeah, true.

[JAMIE] It would be interesting to speak with somebody who watched the original series, and then got really into it and read all the books because there are so many, once you've read all that, like that all becomes canon in your head.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And then they decide to start making more movies. I wonder if like, that's still canon to them, or if they like accepted the new movies, or, I don't know, I don't know anybody who's read all the books like that. So maybe I'll never know. But case study would be interesting.

[KARLI] But from the people I have talked to, they have a very difficult time accepting the prequels and the new movies. It's like for them, the original trilogy, Episodes IV, V, & VI. And then all of the books and that sort of media, they actually even like the animated series better than they like the live action stuff.

[JAMIE] I've heard fantastic things about Clone Wars and all those like to the point where I'm like, I should watch them. But yeah, I would really, really liked them. I mean,

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] So speaking of which, I mean, since we're kind of talking about all the different like mediums that the Star Wars universe has, has worked in what ones for you guys are the ones that are like the strongest examples of storytelling for you.

[GRETA] I was just gonna say like, my primary experience of it has been the movies. Like I have not watched a ton of like Clone Wars and Rebels. I have not played the video games. I've watched the Disney spin off shows. That's primarily been my experience with it. So obviously, the original like the classic trilogy, I think is like great. People give the prequels a lot of hate. And I can understand why. I think there's some cool ideas in there like maybe even like cooler ideas than some of the spin off shows. Like some strong characters and stuff. So like I have enjoyed my experience of watching the movies, especially at the sequel trilogy. I think there's some writing decisions that like I don't necessarily agree with, but like, yeah, just in terms of like stronger storytelling, I guess like probably the classic trilogy is my favorite. And then the prequels I didn't think for like terrible from from a storytelling perspective, I suppose. Yeah, that's that's been my primary experience is just the movies.

[JAMIE] I'M almost exactly the same. I haven't watched anything besides the movies and the Disney spin off series that have come out in recent years. Like you said, people give the prequels a lot of hate. But I mean, if I was going to rank them, like the original series is the best story in Arc that's executed, the cleanest. Yeah. And then the prequels, I feel like is a good, good story arc of how somebody gets to be who they are, and—

[KARLI] It's a tragedy.

[JAMIE] And all the things that are going on the world and a big development about the world, the universe that they're in. And I'm not happy with any of the last three movies, but then there's also Solo and Rogue One. And so I've seen all those as well. It's like every single one I have a different opinion about.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[GRETA] Yeah. And I'll say like, maybe we'll get into this when we talk about characters, but I think like Anakin/Darth Vader's arc is like one of the strongest in the entire franchise. And so like my enjoyment of the prequels is like giving him that development that like you don't necessarily see for villains in like any of the other storytelling media. So like, that's what makes his arc complete to me. And I think there's parts of the prequels that are just fun, too.

[KARLI] Yes. And I love that you brought up the Darth Vader's arc, because that is one of the things that really, because originally, I liked the Episodes I,II & III, because I was younger. And then as I got older, I started seeing like the, you know, the cracks the flaws, and I was like, oh, okay, I can—I can see people's problem. You know, I always thought Jar Jar Binks was annoying. So like, I totally, totally get that, that quibble, it's fair. But that's a tragedy arc. And I think a lot of people's argument with it is like, oh, it would be better if it followed Obi Wan Kenobi. And I'm like, well, I mean, I mean, yes, we love Ewan McGregor. But it's following a yeah, a dissent. It's a dissent. It's a tragedy. It's a negative character arc. And that's not necessarily as popular as, you know, a positive arc.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] But yeah, watching that through the original trilogy and seeing his full arc and how that comes to a close is really powerful. Yeah, I mean, I agree with the two of you that the original trilogy is the stronger, the strongest, I think of them. And then after that, for me, I loved Rogue One. I thought that that one was very well done. I really appreciated that story.

[JAMIE] I liked that one as well. I think I didn't even really think about those one off movies. I was thinking more of like the, the arc that we've been following of each trilogy.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] How do you feel about the new stuff, though, the first the next three after that?

[KARLI] Me or her or anybody?

[JAMIE] Both of you.

[KARLI] Everybody.

[GRETA] So I'll just be honest, that like, I enjoyed my experience of watching those movies. I really enjoyed some of the new characters that were created. Like my favorite aspect of those movies is just like the tension in both sides of the forest like, which is something I enjoy about like all of the movies, just kind of like that pole between the dark and the light. So like Ray and Kylo Ren's arc is my favorite thing to like, follow through those stories. I don't agree with like, how it was dealt with in all of the movies, and I probably liked The Force Awakens the best. I actually fairly enjoyed The Last Jedi. There were parts of that movie that I thought were too long and like did not make sense to the plot. But like that continuing arc of like Ray and Kylo Ren, I enjoyed. And then the third movie I did not appreciate as much.

[JAMIE] What is the third movie even called?

[GRETA] Rise of Skywalker.

[JAMIE] Oh, I remember now because me and my husband were like, why did they name it? [Karli laughs] That doesn't make any sense. It was a cash grab. Like that name was just designed to make people put butts in seats.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] See, now I'm having all sorts of strong opinions.

[KARLI] All the opinions. I agree with Greta, I enjoyed The Force Awakens the most. I enjoyed aspects of all of the newer movies. I thought that there were some things that they did really well. Some characters I really enjoyed, some new faces in the Star Wars universe that were really exciting to see there. But yeah, like just they went out in the weeds on some weird stuff and just the choices that they made. And then obviously I don't care for how it came to a conclusion. I am—I like the darkest timeline sort of scenario. So I honestly think that either they both should have died or...

[JAMIE] Both or neither.

[KARLI] Both or neither, or no, no, not at all or or opposite. And then And then, you know, he would have had to like deal with the ramifications of all of that. And I think that would have made for more interesting storytelling, but I understand why they didn't do that. I totally get it. But I'm just always like, okay, but like, what would it be like after, if that happened? You know? I guess they were trying to close it out on a happy note. And like, you know, hope for the future. And like all that, and I get it, I get it.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Funny, because I don't even really remember a lot of things that happened. So as you say things, I realize stuff, but I agree that it should have been flipped, because then it would have left you with an ambiguous of yes, he has to deal with the ramifications of what that happens. But it also leaves you with that ambiguous sense of hope. You don't know exactly where he's going after that.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Right.

[JAMIE] So I think that you guys are right, like the characters are really the thing that save it, or, you know, they they're the thing that you show up for, because a lot of the choices that they ended up making felt like a missed opportunity. Like, oh, maybe they'll do this. And then you're like, oh, I guess they're just gonna do that instead. Because it's easy.

[GRETA] Yeah, there was like a lack of continuity from movie to movie. And just like a lot of things that were introduced that were then reversed later. So like a lot of the new characters that were introduced in The Last Jedi who could have been really cool and had either some development as like, yeah, allies, or villains or anything. Like they were just kind of discarded by the end of the movie. And their arcs meant nothing. So that was kind of frustrating.

[JAMIE] Yeah, there was so much in house dealing with who's directing and rolling back decisions the previous director hadn't made and reshoots that like that the, all the background Hollywood noise...

[KARLI] Came out in the movie.

[JAMIE] Contributed, instead of just being an artistic thing that was executed by one or like a group of people. It was like shifting and changing. And all of that came through in the storytelling. Yeah. Which is a bummer.

[KARLI] It is a bummer. But I am... I don't know I—I’m willing to have opinions of like, I didn't care for certain movies, in the franchise or shows or whatever media. But at the same time, I'm not gonna like get mad at somebody who liked them.

[GRETA] Yeah, absolutely.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Well, that's not what we're doing.

[KARLI] I'm not going to, you know, throw shade at them for liking it there. We all like different things. And whatever, like works for you works for you. And that's fantastic. You—you do you.

[GRETA] Yeah. And that's, that's one of the things that I was thinking about is like, part of the, like, the cool factor of Star Wars or just like, what draws you to it is like the world and like, yeah, like the lightsabers and like the setting of the story and space and stuff. And like, even the original trilogy, like even if the storytelling is stronger, like there's parts of it that are campy and corny, and like not the best executed. But it's just fun. And I think like, with the Disney spin off shows and stuff, like I will watch all of those, like, they are fun to me. Like it's cool to see what they do with the world, like how they develop that, like what else is out there. Those kinds of things. I thought The Mandalorian the first season was great. I enjoyed that quite a bit. And so I think in terms of storytelling, like it was a happy medium of like referencing some of the things that were familiar and like draw people to the original trilogy, but it was enough of its own story that it could stand on its own. And so like with Rogue One, too, like that was enough of a setup that like referenced events that people recognize from the main trilogy, like it wasn't filling in too much of a gap or like relying too much on nostalgia. Like it stood on its own. And I think like those are my favorite Star Wars stories that are like a little bit separate from the main trilogies like the Skywalker Saga. So I enjoyed both of those.

[KARLI] Same.

[JAMIE] It's nice to have a completed story that's far enough away from the main plot, but in the world, because I agree, like it's the world that people are interested in. And that's why I think the prequels were so exciting because people love the original, they were thirsty for more. And the prequels did a really good job of giving us that of showing us more of Tatooine. Of showing us all these different places that like for years people wanted

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And then they were finally being given more and more of the universe.

[KARLI] Yes, the what else is out there that you said like, that's what will that's what keeps me coming back every time and while you know, there are certain shows or movies that I am less satisfied with or I'm disappointed by or I'm frustrated by even, I still keep coming back because I want to see what they're doing and I want to, I want more. I want to see more of the universe and see more characters getting pulled into that and they're stories and we've got some exciting ones on the horizon already. And it's, it's really cool to see what they're doing. And I'll keep showing up and hoping for the best. And, you know, if it's if it misses the mark, it's not the end of the world. [laughs]

[GRETA] It doesn't detract from your enjoyment of the main stories or the stories that you did enjoy, yeah.

[KARLI] It doesn't have to take away from it, you know.

[JAMIE] What else is coming out? What do they have, like you said it was on the horizon.

[GRETA] We have the Disney plus shows for Andor. Captain Andor, from Rogue One. And I think Ahsoka is getting their own show.

[KARLI] That's the one I'm most excited about, I think that—mmm!

[JAMIE] Yeah, cuz I agree. I'm like, The Mandalorian was fantastic. And all of the parts where he's in other things, were also fantastic.

[JAMIE] But not the other, not the other parts of those things. [Greta and Jamie chuckle] And then we just finished Kenobi, which was very good at being like that nostalgic, return to a beloved character. That was nice. And it was a very cinematic experience. I will say that my tagline was "Obi Wan Kenobi, the stakes have never been lower." [Karli laughs]

[GRETA] Agreed. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yeah, that's fair.

[JAMIE] You already know—

[KARLI] I mean, you're not wrong. Yeah, I agree with that assessment. I loved the nostalgic return. I love Ewan McGregor. I love his portrayal of what that would be like for Obi Wan after everything happened. And I enjoyed watching that. But yeah, [laughing] the stakes have never been lower.

[JAMIE] But it is nice to see that because it all plays into more of the arc of Darth Vader. Because it was like he was his padawan like he, and he feels responsible for everything that's happening, like, kind of rightfully so.

[KARLI] Understandably so.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah. Which I mean, which plays into you know, like Luke and him feeling responsible for what happened with Kylo. And like, all of that stuff, it, it's mirrored, and I and I enjoy that they, they keep bringing themes back around. We're there for the characters, and we're there for the themes. And those are the things that really sit with us and resonate, and they, they're enduring.

[JAMIE] So it is nice that there's sometimes mirroring in story. At any level, do you feel like the exact mirroring of Luke and Kylo to Obi Wan and Anakin is too on the nose? That like basically the exact same thing happens?

[KARLI] [sighs] I mean...

[JAMIE] Doesn't Kylo even like, kill his other students? Like just how Anakin kills all the youngling's?

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] I mean, if you got down to it, storytelling wise, I would have liked to see something different happen. However, when you're dealing with, you know, the Sith and The Dark Side of the Force, like they want all of the people on the light side obliterated. So like, how else are you going to do that? Sure, they could have come up with a better, clever way to like slaughter everybody. But you know, how many unique ways can we slaughter people in these movies? I don't know. Just saying.

[GRETA] Yeah, this is where it gets into, like parts of the story that are there and that I probably latch on to and like have more ideas about than they ever like executed or like had in the actual text of cannon like I think it would be super cool to delve more into like The Knights of Ren and like what was going on there with like the manipulation of Kylo like as a child, and things like that. That would have been a two way to like take that in a little bit of a different direction. So, that was a choice they could have made. But...

[KARLI] It is a choice they could have made that they tend to not dig in where you really want them to.

[GRETA] Right.

[KARLI] And I mean, I think as a whole in like the whole universe I've seen like there are moments where I'm like, I want more of that. Like why can't we have more of that? So.

[JAMIE] Yeah, personally, I can't solve it off the top of my head because I just thought of this question. But overall, to me, it feels like the lazy choice.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah. It’s, it's redundant. Like they could have mirrored it, or they could have echoed it in a different way. I don't know how, like you said, but yeah.

[JAMIE] Greta is making the good point of there's so much in those books that we anybody who's only watching the movies don't know about that. Like there's, there's got to be canon that they could have mined out of those things. There's hundreds of, that's like a whole galaxy, right. The Hollywood levels. It's so it's like you can't. I don't know.

[KARLI] All right, favorite character arcs. Ready go.

[JAMIE] You kind of I already touched on Darth Vader's arc earlier, Karli. And one of the reasons why I think that people like the his arc so much, is because there's really not a huge amount of examples of degrading arcs. Comparatively like, there's really only a few. And if you guys can think of any I would love to hear it. But like, pretty much I think of Darth Vader, and the Smallville version of Lex Luthor, where you can really see why they become who they end up being.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] You kind of want more of those, because we have anti heroes, but these people aren't anti heroes, there's a huge difference.

[KARLI] It's a distinct trip of becoming a villain. Yeah.

[JAMIE] I think that that's one of the reasons why it sticks out so much is that we don't have a lot of things to sit it next to and compare it to. Compared to having heroes.

[GRETA] Yeah, that's a really good point. And I am not thinking of a ton of examples outside of Star Wars right now, because I was just kind of thinking about Star Wars and like their handling of tragic arcs and villains. And just the fact that like so many of the villainous characters in Star Wars don't get much development, that Anakin's arc, like in comparison seems a lot more satisfying; because some of the characters that had the potential to be like really cool and like really impactful to the story like Darth Maul, or like Snoke, and things like that just kind of get built up. Like they have a cool set piece and then they just get discarded, like within one movie.

[KARLI] Right. I agree. And I was like, trying to wrack my brain for arcs like that. And I just I can't think of very many because you're right, there aren't as many and I find them fascinating.

[JAMIE] Yeah, cuz it's like we have we have stories of like a villain or a bad guy, but not how would you start off like, all the opportunity in the world kid. Bright eyed, bushy tailed, boom. Darth Vader. I'll have to research to see if I can find them.

[KARLI] I know. I want to find more too. I'm like off the top of my head. I can't. There's—they're out there.

[JAMIE] I'm sure Google will try and just show me a whole bunch of anti heroes. And I'll be like Google, you don't understand anything.

[KARLI] You don't understand me. Move along. Move along.

[JAMIE] These are not the villains you were looking for.

[KARLI] Yeah, I would have liked to see more of different ones like Darth Maul. [clears throat] Darth Maul. [clears throat] Darth Maul.

[JAMIE] Is it weird that I remember having like a little crush on Darth Maul?

[KARLI] Oh!

[GRETA] Not weird at all. [all laugh]

[KARLI] I had a hard on for Darth Maul for sure.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] For sure.

[GRETA] I think we all sat there with like our jaws on the floor and we're like—

[KARLI] Mmmm!

[JAMIE] Look at him spin and kick people's ass. I love that in a man.

[KARLI] I could get into that.

[GRETA] We all love Darth Maul. Who else?

[KARLI] Yeah. [laugh]

[JAMIE] Sorry I didn't mean to distract you with the thought of Darth Maul.

[KARLI] Is it hot in here? [laughs] We were talking about uh, character arcs that we enjoyed is there any other? [laughs]

[JAMIE] Oh is that what we were talking about? Because I was just thinking about about Darth Maul.

[KARLI] Fair.

[JAMIE] Sorry, sorry. Sorry. Also isn't the guy who played Darth Maul also plays Nightcrawler in X Men? All right, sorry. We can go on with characters while I google that.

[KARLI] Okay, please do because I want to know.

[JAMIE] His name is Ray Park, and he played Toad in X Men, just so you guys know.

[GRETA] [laughs] Cool.

[KARLI] I like it. I like it. Greta, do you have any in mind that you really enjoyed their arc?

[GRETA] Yeah, I mean, like, this is such a low bar answer. But I enjoy Luke's arc in the original trilogy, he's the chosen one. He's like the protagonist. I always enjoy characters that have kind of like internal like, and this is this is the thing that I like about Star Wars too is the force is just kind of like this great device for getting at character's internal motivations and kind of like their pull towards their darker self. So like wrestling with that made me really like Luke, and like Ray to a degree too. And then the numerous stories too, and Kylo Ren. Like all of those characters that are kind of dealing with that burden of do I become the next Jedi? Like do I become the person who's like taking on this responsibility of bringing balance to the force, being this force in the galaxy with like, all of these responsibilities attached to it? So I think like, the characters that wrestle with that are my favorites.

[JAMIE] Like, they're, they're making, like a huge commitment. So it makes sense that they're just not like, alright, I'll do it.

[KARLI] I think the thing that a lot of people, maybe, that I've talked to struggle with seeing is that they're like, well, of course, you wouldn't pick the dark side, like what's wrong with you? You know, like the, it's not so like, oh, am I do I be evil or do I be good like it doesn't—It's just like in real life, there's a series of small choices that lead us down these paths and I think that that's why the original trilogy is so compelling is because the series of choices the Anakin makes that lead him down that path makes sense. I mean, and so we didn't get to see Kylo's we didn't get to watch how that played out.

[GRETA] Yeah. And I think actually like that kind of Jedi Sith split. The like good versus evil story. Like that is a lot of pressure to kind of choose how that's gonna play out in your life. And like as a character, like seeing Anakin, like wrestle with those choices in the prequels, like you can understand how he turned out the way he was, like the things that he was being asked to do in order to like, be an exemplary Jedi. So yeah, I just I love seeing like characters wrestle with that and like the choices that they make.

[KARLI] I definitely agree with that. I think it makes for dynamic storytelling, because there's that push and pull.

[JAMIE] Because I'm mostly trying to focus on the movies, but like, obviously, within anywhere in the world, it's Din Djarin. Character arc wise, although I would like him to stop taking off his frickin' helmet for God's sake.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] But anyway, that's a whole different issue. I guess. Some people want to see his face more I want to see his face less. [laughs]

[KARLI] It has nothing to do with his face.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] It has everything to do—

[JAMIE] No it's everything to do with the character.

[KARLI] Exactly.

[JAMIE] So that's the first one that I think like in the world that we know, and most compelling arc, but I feel like it's kind of a funny thing to say because it's not complete yet. It's it's very developing. But I'm most excited about that. And maybe it's because it's still developing. And then as far as the stories go, I think that Padme's arc is beautiful. And Natalie Portman did a really good job and it's tragic and heart wrenching.

[KARLI] My favorite and we will not be discussing what happens to my favorite stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking nerf herder in the new movies—or I will cry—but Han Solo's arc in the original trilogy.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] I love because I love that scruffy rogue, like doing my own thing. But I really do have more of a heart than I like to let on and I loved—Han Solo is my all time like that's my that's my Star Wars person.

[JAMIE] His arc is anti-hero to reluctant hero.

[GRETA AND KARLI] Yes.

[GRETA] That's a great progression. And I was hoping somebody would bring it up because like, I think I do tend more towards the chosen ones, the mystics, the mentors, even. But Han has a great arc. I liked him too.

[JAMIE] Another character that I feel is similar in that respect is another space cowboy. And that's Mal from—

[GRETA] Firefly.

[JAMIE] Serenity and Firefly.

[KARLI] Yes, absolutely.

[JAMIE] And their, and their outfits are so good, both of them. [chuckles]

[KARLI] I mean, seriously, I want to, I want to cosplay. Real bad. We did already kind of touch on this one. But like Obi Wan Kenobi's arc, like when you look at it from Episode I. And now that we have the series and all the way through to A New Hope and how that plays out it. You know, it's a good one. It's It's tragic, as well.

[JAMIE] It spans decades.

[KARLI] Spans decades. I feel really bad, because I haven't seen Rogue One and so long, even though I love it, but I can't think of like the characters and they're—like, I loved their arcs.

[GRETA] Yeah. And I think like I was gonna say that too. And I kind of wonder if it is because like, that's a one off movie. Like, their arcs are complete. They were short, they were definitive. They like made choices under pressure and like demonstrated their like loyalty or their beliefs. Like, I think that movie is so good. And like that's probably one of the reasons like nothing is left hanging.

[KARLI] Yeah, they had a very distinctive point in time to work with. And there wasn't much wiggle room. And I think sometimes where Star Wars gets off in the weeds is because they have so much wiggle room. They're like, Ooo, we could do this, and this and this, and this and this, and they can't make choices. And they're like, let's have all of it.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] And that doesn't, that doesn't always make for a good story. And so with, you know, like Rogue One, it's a very, like, you don't have much room to wiggle there. There's the thing that happens. And that's it.

[JAMIE] And my favorite part is I'll watch anything with Donnie Yen in it. chuckles]

[KARLI] Mmm. Yes. He's fantastic.

[GRETA] Really, really great. He was probably my favorite character in that movie.

[JAMIE] I like that movie. It's a really good story, but I'm like, but Donnie Yen is definitely my favorite part of it. [Jamie and Karli chuckle]

[KARLI] That's fair. All right. Are there any ones that we want to touch on that like you know, we could do without or do we want to just like mmm...

[JAMIE] I would never do say that the Boba Fett series shouldn't exist, [Karli laughs] because some of those episodes are vital to your boy Din Djarin. But I'll say I did see a meme that was like a joke of people complaining that Boba Fett wasn't badass enough in his new series. But it was like a clip from the original series of Boba Fett getting like slammed into a wall pretty easily. And they were like, why are we acting like Boba Fett was like a big deal? [Jamie and Karli laugh]

[KARLI] I think we had this mental image built up in our heads of him.

[JAMIE] We did, we did.

[KARLI] And, and they kind of s#*! all over that, in my opinion.

[JAMIE] I mean, even in the original series, he got thrown to a sandworm like he couldn't have been that badass.

[KARLI] I mean, that was a very chaotic situation. [Jamie laughs] Jedi and Han Solo were involved. Chewy was there, you know,

[JAMIE] Laia's in her bikini and it's very distracting.

[KARLI] Laia's in her slave bikini. You know, R2-D2's doing crazy stuff. Never underestimate a droid.

[JAMIE] In the Boba Fett series, there are characters that they introduced that are really compelling. Do either of you remember the name of the sheriff? Whoever Timothy Olyphant is playing.

[KARLI] [Karli makes interested grunting noises] I mean, we want to discuss.

[JAMIE] I have a problem today. [all laugh] So there were good things that came out of the Boba Fett series. Yes, but what that was not one of them.

[GRETA] Boba Fett didn't appear in half the episodes of his own show. So.

[GRETA] Those were the best episodes. [Greta and Jamie laugh]

[KARLI] I mean, I like the actor. I just don't like what they did with the actor.

[GRETA] Agreed. Yeah.

[KARLI] The choices that they made.

[JAMIE] I'm talking about the character the writing choices.

[KARLI] Okay. Okay, cuz I'm just saying.

[JAMIE] I'm not coming at him.

[KARLI] Better not. [Greta chuckles]

[JAMIE] Why? What will happen?

[KARLI] I just, I don't know. Nothing, [Jamie laughs] probably. But like—

[JAMIE] Empty threats.

[KARLI] You—you know how I feel about Boba Fett. I have a painting of him in my bathroom.

[JAMIE] In closing to talk about Boba Fett. It's nice that they're still filling the world with interesting characters. They're also filling the world with characters that you can just throw away. The red shirts of Star Wars.

[GRETA] Yes, I will say though like even in the sequel trilogy, and some of the newer stuff. Some of the new characters that they've introduced are like people I really enjoy watching and like characters I really enjoy watching. The side characters in the Boba Fett show like did not make an impression on me a good impression on me, like, very few of them were people that I like, want to follow or know more about.

[JAMIE] Pretty much just that sheriff.

[GRETA] Agreed.

[KARLI] Right?!

[JAMIE] [laughing] That's the only one I could think of.

[KARLI] But yeah, there are definite side characters and the other ones like Mandalorian that you are super compelled by their story and they felt very—well earned screen time for them.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] In The Mandalorian, the how do I describe them? The one who makes all of their beskar into armor.

[JAMIE] The Armorer.

[JAMIE] The Armorer?

[GRETA] That is her name, yeah.

[JAMIE] I really like her—

[KARLI] Super compelling.

[JAMIE] Her voice is great. And that actress also was in supernatural as Amara.

[GRETA] Yeah. Yeah, she was one of the characters that I wrote down that I would like to see more about.

[KARLI] Yes, yes, absolutely.

[JAMIE] I want to know her backstory.

[GRETA] That's a fantastic cosplay. Also. If you are ever going to, if you're ever going to cosplay character.

[KARLI] So I mean, on that note, what would you guys like to see more of in the Star Wars universe?

[GRETA] Yeah, so I had a very definitive answer on this one, I would love to see more stories about force users that are like outside of the Jedi, Sith binary. I just think it's such a compelling aspect of the story. Like I love stories with soft magic. Just like the potential that there is to like deal with inner conflict and just like cool powers and stuff through that medium and I think we're starting to see like a little bit of that with—spoilers—some of the characters in The Mandalorian and stuff like that. Well and even in Rogue One, too, like a couple of those characters were like Guardians of the Whills who have forced abilities.

[JAMIE] Yeah, force sensitive and all those things.

[KARLI] Yeah, that force sensitivity without being a Jedi Knight.

[GRETA] Yeah, without that kind of like dogmatic split. Like kind of outside of like the, the moralistic, like light versus dark. Like what is the nuance there?

[JAMIE] Yeah, to break out of that like false dichotomy of if you have any of these you have to pick a path to be more like people with more agency.

[GRETA] Exactly.

[KARLI] Well, I mean, even from the standpoint of I'm trying to think of exactly what Yoda says, but they turn people away, who have forced sensitivity. In episodes one, two, and three, somewhere in there, they hint at that. Or maybe they say it directly, I don't remember. But there's gotta be people out there that have force sensitivity that are living moderately normal lives, like there's more going on than, exactly, then these two did very distinctive and present entities.

[GRETA] And I do think like part of the draw of the original trilogy is it is that very classic, like, hero's journey, like story of good versus evil. But I think like, in the direction that a lot of stories are going to kind of, like, get away from the cliches of those tropes to just like, explore more of that nuance would be something that like, that's one of the aspects that we talked about, like earlier like that they don't like go into detail about the parts of the story that you want them to. And that is like a part of the story that I would like to see more of.

[KARLI] Yes, same like with Finn, you know, he, Stormtrooper and he was like, I don't like this. There's gotta be more people. I mean, they're out there. Like, you know, obviously, like Obi Wan. And there's, there are a couple that we're starting to get to see that are like, I don't like what's happening.

[JAMIE] If I'm going to see and enjoy more Star Wars stuff, I feel like it needs to be its own. I'm kind of overdosed on nostalgia. I feel like nostalgia is now a crutch. Let's move away from using nostalgia to try and evoke an emotion that is feeling forced.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Get us like some distance from these characters in these choices. Use the world. But give us new storylines.

[KARLI] Yeah, well, which I think I'm hopeful for um, I always forget her name. The new the Jedi...

[GRETA] Ahsoka.

[KARLI] Ahsoka. Yeah, I am i I'm hopeful for that one for that reason.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I'm still skeptical of that one. Because she's such a huge part of the animated series.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, when talking to another fellow Star Wars nerd, much deeper in it than me, brought up a whole bunch of characters that are like in the animated series that are really cool and really compelling. And it really, I had not had much desire to see the animated series before talking to him. But now I'm like, okay, well, there's—sounds like there's a lot more going on than what meets the eye upon like, first glance.

[JAMIE] From what I've heard, it really builds on Anakin story quite a bit, put it, put it on my list.

[GRETA] From what I've heard this year, like at this year's Star Wars Celebration, that was kind of like the announcement that the writers made that they're moving away from the Skywalker saga into more like original storytelling.

[KARLI] Oh, cool. I missed that. Nice.

[GRETA] So it might be more to see and analyze.

[KARLI] So Greta, do you have a Two-Cent Recommendation for us this week?

[GRETA] I do. And it is a double recommendation. If you have not watched Rogue One recently, like just go and watch, rewatch Rogue One. That's what we watched on May the Fourth this year, and it had been a while. And it's just like a good example of like some of the stuff we were talking about where the arcs of those characters like do get capped off in a more satisfying way. Like it references the nostalgia of the original trilogy without being like, going too far into detail and filling in gaps that don't need to be filled in. Yeah, if you want to quickly like delve in, just go rewatch that. And then the other thing I wanted to recommend is actually a fanfiction of someone who has a book deal coming out next year. She was recognized like for her Reylo fanfiction, and like picked up by a traditional publisher. But what I want to recommend to you is her two parts Sword of the Jedi series. If you were frustrated by Kylo Ren's arc, and what happened at the Jedi Academy and kind of the events that diverged from there, and how that may have paralleled too much what happened with Anakin, this is kind of like a re exploration of what would have happened if Kylo remained at the Jedi Academy and studied with Luke and Rey showed up there as a child. So this like goes through the events of the sequel trilogy. And it is like longer than novels. Like this is a two part series. Like Young Gods is the first one and To Kingdom Come is the second one. But these are by her username is @disasterisms on Archive of Our Own, or Ao3.org. Her name is Thea Guanzon. Sorry if I'm messing that up. But she has a book coming out in 2023 that's based on one of her works called The Hurricane Wars. And so that's just going to be a Southeast Asian inspired space fantasy, I believe.

[JAMIE] Oooo I'm in.

[KARLI] You have me.

[JAMIE] Also we will have you send us the link and then we can put it in the description of the episode.

[KARLI] Cool. Well, I love talking nerd stuff with you guys. So thank you for humoring me. I really wanted this episode.

[JAMIE] It's been a long time coming.

[KARLI] It has been a long time coming. I've been hinting at it as often as Jamie will let me. [laughs]

[JAMIE] And we could not have picked a better guest to come and talk to us about.

[GRETA] Aw.

[JAMIE] Thank you Greta.

[KARLI] Thank you. Thank you so much for being here.

[GRETA] Thanks for having me. This was fun.

[KARLI] Thanks for listening everybody. You can find Greta @greta.valentine.writes on Instagram. Greta's got links in her bio so that you can read her story, “The Raven Wife.” It's fantastic. You can find us by clicking the links in the description of this episode. We're on Instagram, Twitter, we got a website, newsletter all the cool stuff. Thanks, guys. And may the force be with you all.

The Five Man Band - Transcript

[JAMIE] I don't know how long ago or what episode it was last season, but after a year-and-a-half, my glasses actually fit me. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] I'm so happy for you. I'm potentially concerned for you that it took a year and a half. But...

[JAMIE] Yeah, I mean, and it was like a free appointment. It cost me nothing but time. It makes such a difference too. I'm like, oh, it's amazing. They don't just like slide off my face every I move. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Who'da thought! You knew exactly where to go. And exactly what to do. You just actively chose not to do that thing.

[JAMIE] Pathetic. All right, let's get started. [both laugh]

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Welcome back to The Act Break. The podcast where we are not experts. Just a disclaimer up front. I feel like that's really important to emphasize this year. [both laugh]

[KARLI] We really want to hammer that one home.

[JAMIE] We're here because we enjoy talking and hearing the sound of our own voice. [Karli laughs] No, we just want to get together. Talk about story stuff. Uh, not experts. Yeah. Oh, I'm Jamie. [both laugh]

[KARLI] And? [laughs]

[JAMIE] And I don't know, I just didn't feel like my role was very important today. [laughing] Even though I'm supposed to be in charge.

[KARLI] And I'm Karli and I did the preparation today.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] I just wanted to pat myself on the back for that one.

[JAMIE] Today, we are choosing to talk about something I will admit that until very recently, I didn't even realize there was like a name for. I knew what it was in structure and theory. And then somebody started talking about the five man band. And I was like, oh, I didn't know that that's what it was called. Which is ironic, because I have—we have like a whole podcast about stuff.

[KARLI] There's always room for learning new things here.

[JAMIE] Exactly. I mostly just considered it in ensemble cast. But like there's a specific name for archetypes within this. And that's what we're talking about today. The five man band if ensembles interest you, we also have an episode about found family tropes. And there's overlap in these two dynamics.

[KARLI] I agree.

[JAMIE] So mostly, I feel like we were just we'll just like lay out what it is. chat about some of the archetypes within it.

[KARLI] Some of our favorites.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Mostly I just have a massive list of [laughing] all of my favorite examples.

[JAMIE] I'm really interested in hearing what your list is.

[KARLI] My preparation consisted of me talking about all of my favorite things. So basically, this entire episode is Karli's recommendations. So you can give a rec at the end.

[JAMIE] Perfect. Let's start with explaining what the five man band is. Uh, I don't—What do you want to call it?

[KARLI] It's a character driven storytelling device.

[JAMIE] Sort of is. I mean it—because it's like a structure for characters and how they interact. But it's also like character archetypes fit within it. What the five man band consists of is first off the leader, your main protagonist.

[KARLI] Yeah, the hero archetype. Yes. The leader of the band.

[JAMIE] Yes, the one that is faced with the tough decisions. That's number one. Number two is called the Lancer. This is going to be usually second command, but also, because the first one it's like the leader, the protagonist, but each one after that is much more of a character archetype. There are traits within each of these characters. And so for the Lancer, that's usually somebody who has enough clout that they can come up against the leader.

[KARLI] Often they are the foil to the hero. They serve as the second in command, the person who questions the leader or backs up the leader, or all of those, all of those things, any of those things.

[JAMIE] Third, we have the smart guy. He's the person who's coming up with the ideas. The guy they go to for solutions. He's the scientist in the situation. He's the Q in James Bond, he's the guy with solutions.

[KARLI] And if the hero is a smarter type that's coming up with plans, the smart guy will be the one that figures out what the hero is trying to do or the leader's trying to do and handily explain it to the rest of the group.

[JAMIE] Yes. Fourth, we have the big guy, the muscle, the enforcer of group. The person that everybody turns to when they need something, you know, [dramatic wisper] taken care of taken care of, usually intimidating.

[KARLI] He's loyal and—but lovable.

[JAMIE] Exactly. He's usually tough on the outside, soft on the inside.

[KARLI] That's right.

[JAMIE] Many times. And then the fifth has several names, but I prefer to use the term heart, the heart of the story.

[KARLI] Same.

[JAMIE] The person who's emotionally grounding everybody, and bringing people together and making sure people's emotional needs are kind of being met as well.

[KARLI] I would argue that these are the people that keeps the five man band together, or puts it back together when it falls apart, or is the facilitator for that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, they often are the ones that are like openly stating themes that run throughout. And there it is, folks have a nice week. No I'm just kidding.

[KARLI] We out.

[JAMIE] And the more you look through literature, and film, you'll see these patterns, these archetypes mirrored, it works for a reason. These five characters click because they're meeting needs for a writer in particular, to be like, I need this to happen. This is the kind of thing this particular character would do. Yeah, because they're already set up to play that role.

[KARLI] Because individually, they all have their strengths. But together, they are equipped to handle a wide array of situations.

[JAMIE] Yes, so I'm really interested in your, your list.

[KARLI] Oh, my goodness. It's interesting, because as I was going through trying to find some of my favorites that were in my mind, some of them aren't like strictly five man band, some of them have more, some of them have less. And so that kind of falls into like different ways that writers can... can utilize the five man band because what ends up happening is most of the time, the five man band is the five man band. But there are also times where you can combine different archetypes together, like the Lancer can also be the smart guy or the big guy or the heart. And so you can play around with dynamics like that. Like for example, Cowboy Bebop is technically fulfills the five man band, they just have certain characters smushed together, because there's four of them.

[JAMIE] I was thinking about that too, because you can squish it together where it's like this person is going to be the big guy and the heart, they're going to do both. But also, you can do a slow build, depending on your story. There might be sections of your story where these other archetypes aren't in it. But the way you build your story is that it is part of the arc that these people join. As the journey unfolds.

[KARLI] They don't have to start out together. And actually like I enjoy stories where there's, there's a slow build to the team, where you know, maybe there's one or two together at first or three of them together at first, or even just one and then it slowly adds on. And then by the time you reach the end, you have all of these people together or even the midpoint and you can watch these dynamics form and build and it's very enjoyable.

[JAMIE] Wheel of Time, The Lord of the Rings, there's all sorts of where characters meet in different places, all to come together at like a pivotal point.

[KARLI] Absolutely. And then there's also random like extras that sometimes get thrown into the five man band. The team pet, which would be like in the first book, especially of Twilight, that's Bella to the Cullens. And then eventually... [Jamie and Karli laugh] I saw that I cannot take credit for that. I found that on a website, and I cracked up so hard. But then she becomes the sixth Ranger, which is another trope within the five man band thing where like, sometimes there'll be another one that like, adds on.

[JAMIE] Well, it  is interesting to think about like the all the archetypes that come together in a story. Because often like as a writer, I'm always thinking, you know, you want to make it realistic. You want to—even if it's fantasy, you want to build characters and people that feel like they could really exist in the five man band way. Because you're like, how often does it actually work out that your group of friends or people in your life actually fit into roles? Like everybody's so complex. It's just an interesting thing.

[KARLI] I mean, think about like, friend groups, a lot of time, we'll have like, the heart, the middleman, the person that everybody goes to, when they have a problem or a problem with another member of the group [Jamie laughs] to talk it out. And so like there's usually a heart and then a lot of times there's like one who makes decisions because nobody else can make decisions and you know, like, so I think honestly, these come into play in real life.

[JAMIE] Well, exactly. The characters are built from real things that exist.

[KARLI] Yes, exactly.

[JAMIE] And that's why it works so well.

[KARLI] They're just a hyper realized version of reality, which is what we do with stories all the time. One of my favorite five man band situations is in The Princess Bride. I think that that is like chef's kiss. Great. Great.

[JAMIE] We have Wesley who's the leader, leader, and then Inigo, who would be the Lancer.

[KARLI] Yep. And then you have Fezzik is the big guy, obviously. Usually, [chuckles] they are actually physically very large. And then you have the heart is Buttercup.

[JAMIE] And then the smart guy is..

[KARLI] Oh, sorry, the smart guy. I was like, why? Who did I miss? The smart guy could technically be Vizzini.

[JAMIE] The guy who's like, bringing them back to life. He's just mostly dead.

[KARLI] [laughs] It's been a while. It's been a while.

[JAMIE] What else do you have on your list?

[KARLI] Oh, man. So I mean, obviously you brought up we'll have time but yeah, like especially book one I have the world is the very like dynamic of the five man band. Mystery Gang. I feel like I'm gonna bring up a lot of cartoons. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Oh, the Scooby Gang.

[KARLI] Scooby Doo, Shaggy, Velma. The Scooby gang. And then we've got Guardians of the Galaxy, I can keep going. Ninja Turtles, we've got Voltron. [chuckles] And I think that that's the beauty of this trope is that there is there's so many different like character subsets that you can play with, with your story interaction, like how they interact with each other, how they react to the plot, and what's going on that you can go so many different directions with this trope. For me, my favorite things about the five man band is actually a lot of times they'll have like the Lancer or the smart guy, like split off and be like, make his own thing, and then he gets in trouble. And then the group can go save him. And that can be like a really fun and even funny scenario that your characters can get into. But I really like watching when they're all together, because I really enjoy what the five man band does is give room for teamwork and friendships, and showing support and interaction between characters. And I think that that is something that's like, that's not often done well in fiction. And so I really, really enjoy the five man band because I love watching a group of people come together for common goals and learn how to respect each other, even though they're completely different from one another and work together. And I find that to be very satisfying to read and watch.

[JAMIE] Especially when it feels really earned, that they're finally together. And they're working together. That's one of my favorite parts. But mine is the step right after that. So it's great because you're like, oh, everybody's finally together, you could see them interact. Those are usually funny and like enjoyable interactions. And my favorite part, though, is actually when they go to achieve their goal. And everybody a lot of the time pairs off. And everybody has a specific objective, that we all have different strengths and weaknesses. And we're going to split off to accomplish different things that will all serve one purpose later.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It just emphasizes that we all have different strengths and weaknesses. So even though we're not all the protagonist, we all contribute, and all of our portions are vital to the ultimate outcome.

[KARLI] Yes. And if not everybody is pulling their weight, then the ultimate goal cannot be achieved. And I'm gonna take a small moment and say like, my gaming this week was actually preparation for this because I run five man dungeons in World of Warcraft.

[JAMIE] This is research.

[KARLI] Like for any of you super nerds out there. For those of you who may not know, like you have five people in your group, each of them has a specific role in what they do. And you have the tank and get stand there and whacked and then you have a healer who has to keep them alive. And then you have all of the people who are all the moving parts in order to defeat the big bad. It just made me think of that. So I had to drop it in there.

[JAMIE] She's all, "I'm working!"

[KARLI] I'm working people.

[JAMIE] I'm ready to talk about my—I have things to say about my recommendation. So it's like it's like a whole thing.

[KARLI] It's a whole thing. Okay, okay.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] I see. I see. I know exactly what you're gonna talk about.

[JAMIE] I know.

[KARLI] So I'm like, we got to give her time.

[JAMIE] I've got a lot of things to say if I'm not that much, but some it's completely impossible for my recommendation not to be Avatar The Last Airbender. [dramatic voice] What?! [normal voice] Which I know you knew. Here's some things that are why. We've told you what the archetypes are. You can take those archetypes, flip them on their head, but they could still be those archetypes. In The Last Airbender, our lancer—spoiler alert—spends most of the story trying to kill our protagonist. He has a redemption arc that's gorgeous. And he does not join until act four. Our smart guy is a jock. He wants to, you know, be a warrior, come into his own, which he does. But he is the smart guy of the story. Instead of the normal archetype. It switches that our big guy is a little blind girl. It takes almost every single, one our our heart—

[KARLI] Subverting expectations, which is so satisfying to see that done in such an effective way.

[JAMIE] Yes, our heart is closer to the original archetype. But they're also so powerful that they hold their own and are actually a teacher to the leader. I have always felt like this is like the ultimate five man band. It shows that you can take it, but you can make it fresh and original in different ways. It's also one of those ones that is a very slow build to get to the point where we have everybody accounted for. It also has the, what did you call it? The sixth—

[JAMIE] The sixth Ranger.

[JAMIE] You also have a nice mix of male and female instead of only having one female.

[KARLI] The heart. Oh wow.

[JAMIE] Yeah, the heart being the female. Our big guy is female. And so is our sixth Ranger.

[KARLI] I'm so glad that this was your recommendation, and I figured you would bring it up. But I don't know enough about it to be able to like, really dive in. But I think that's my biggest thing with a five man band is they fall, most of them fall so hard into these tropes, where the heart is always female. And the big guy is always a big guy, or you know, Chewbacca. It's so cool when somebody can take these things, and they can turn it on their head and say, what if, like, why not? Let's do this. And makes it so satisfying to see more than just one thing happening over and over again.

[JAMIE] In The Last Airbender, like even our leader has an aspect to his morality that you don't see, a lot of the times in, in your protagonist.

[KARLI] A lot of times heroes are very one dimensional. The protagonist, the leader is very like, I don't know, I'm like, I'm like, [laughs] making hand gestures. And I can't think of the word. [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] What you see is what you get.

[KARLI] Yes, thank you.

[JAMIE] So I know that I pretty much I feel like this, this whole season has just been me talking about how great The Last Airbender is.

[KARLI] That's fine.

[JAMIE] And I was right, everything I said, [both laugh] about how great it is. It's just so good. Yeah. And so that is the breakdown of what the five man band is, and many different styles of use.

[KARLI] And the two cent recommendation for the week.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's, I mean, I, it's my recommendation every day of the week.

[KARLI] Every day.

[JAMIE] Every single day.

[KARLI] Every day, all day. And I feel like we could probably go on for another half an hour talking about all of the nuances within the different archetypes and the different scenarios that you can put them in and all of that but I already feel like there's really great information out there on that. So maybe this is, this is just a jumping off point for people to you know, go do a little bit more research about the five man band and see what you can do with it.

[JAMIE] It is fun to think about different books that you enjoy. Especially it's really easy in epic fantasy to be like, oh, in The Stormlight Archives, it would be this one and this one and this one and that would be that one and hmmm, I wonder what I am. We're both lancers to each other's protagonist.

[KARLI] I like it. I like it.

[JAMIE] Perfect. Now if only a smart guy [laughing] would come along.

[KARLI] We need a smart guy. Probably a heart too. [Jamie groans] Mine's shriveled. [laughing] Cut it off.

[JAMIE] Oh, yoi, yoi. We did it again guys. Thanks for being here for another just like random chat about story stuff.

[KARLI] You can find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast, Twitter, @theactbreak_. You can find all of our links in the episode description. Sign up for our newsletter at scifiohmy.com/podcast Thanks for listening.

[JAMIE] Talk to you later, internet friends.

Writer from a Young Age - Transcript

[KARLI] Hello, Jamie.

[JAMIE] Hi, Karli.

[KARLI] Ooo, you look nice.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] We look the same. We're both wearing heather green hoodies. And we look like we just woke up.

[KARLI] Well, that’s, that's why you look nice. We look nice.

[JAMIE] Twinning.

[KARLI] Hashtag twins.

[JAMIE] You could be DeVito today if you want. [chuckles] I was DeVito last time.

[KARLI] Yeah, let's share. We gotta, we gotta swap back and forth on on who's the Arnold and who's the Danny. My coffee's still brewing.

[JAMIE] You haven't had coffee? What's wrong with you?

[KARLI] So I actually think it's done now. So I'm gonna just ehh...

[JAMIE] Okay, yeah.

[KARLI] Energy juice!

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] This my favorite part of this made up job. [Penny laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. We made this up—I mean, we didn't make up podcasting—but we were like, hey, let's do this—

[JAMIE] I invented podcasting. [Penny laughs]

[KARLI] Make this up so we can meet people. Yay. So today we have the very exciting opportunity to talk with a longtime internet friend. And we are so very, very excited and honored to have Penny Kearney join us today.

[JAMIE] Penny, it's so nice to meet you. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Welcome!

[PENNY] Nice to meet you, too. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] I'm Jamie.

[KARLI] I'm Karli.

[PENNY] I'm Penny.

[KARLI] So nice to actually like, talk to you in real time. So how are you this morning?

[PENNY] I'm awake. For the moment. [laughs] Thanks to coffee. Yeah, coffee, and, you know, and impending Zoom meetings.

[JAMIE] Yeah, we can I think we're all on the same page there. Thank you for being here.

[PENNY] Oh, yeah, definitely.

[KARLI] Thank you so much for being willing to come and answer questions.

[PENNY] I got the, I got the email. And I was like, wow, they want me on their podcast, but there's so much cooler than me. [all laugh] That's so cool. I'm so honored. They think I'm cool too.

[KARLI] Heck yeah, we do.

[JAMIE] We're here to pull the wool off your eyes. [Penny laughs] We have so delicately placed over the people who see us on the internet.

[PENNY] The truth is out.

[KARLI] Yeah, when people actually get to see behind the scenes of how we make the podcast, and it is a hot mess. [Penny laughs] Jamie is just good at her job of editing.

[PENNY] Like every creative job. It's all secretly in the editing. [laughs]

[KARLI] Right?

[JAMIE] You can make anything look like anything's happening.

[PENNY] Exactly.

[JAMIE] If you watch any reality or competition show. You have to know that you're like nothing ever is like—

[PENNY] Did it actually come down to the wire? Or did they just edit it and add you know, dramatic music? [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] Exactly. What are the odds that comes down to the wire every single time?

[PENNY] Everybody down to the wire? Are you sure?

[KARLI] Okay, Penny, would you do us the favor of telling us a little bit about yourself? How you got into writing? And what kind of started your journey?

[PENNY] Oh, wow. Um, yeah, let's see how far back to I go. [Penny and Karli chuckle]

[KARLI] So I was born. And... [laughs]

[PENNY] Yeah, pretty much. [chuckles] My mother always reminds me of when I was three years old. And I told her a story about how I had been eaten by a bear. And, and she sort of looked at me and it's like, oh, well, then how are you, you know, right here. And I thought about it from it. I said, well, I went back in and I got born again. And she said, that did not happen. [all laugh] No, no, no.

[JAMIE] She immediately found a plot hole. [all laugh]

[PENNY] First plot hole right there. I didn't think that through.

[KARLI] I didn't think that was great. Your mom really helped you sort through your Oh, yeah. Sounds like a great mom.

[PENNY] Yes, she still does this.

[KARLI] That's great. We always have to have the people who are willing to like help us out with stuff like that.

[PENNY] Oh, yes. If you guys have seen The Incredibles and Edna Mode hits, what's her name the mom character, over the head with a newspaper telling her you know, pull yourself together and then go out and do the thing. That's a real friend right there.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[PENNY] That is a real friend. Yes. My mother will do that for me. [laughs] She's always ready with the newspaper.

[JAMIE] So when do you feel like you started seriously pursuing writing?

[PENNY] I started actually writing things down when I was 10. And I found that was more efficient than telling my siblings, you know, endless stories and then never remembering them. But I think when I was 14 or 15, we got a curriculum called the One Year Adventure Novel, the high school curriculum, so and homeschool, and it's basically write a novel in a school year. And it was like the coolest thing that I had ever seen. I've been writing things but there are scribbles and you know, nothing had ever been actually finished. So I wrote a full length novel when I was 14,15 years old. and got a better understanding of story structure. And from there, I was pretty dedicated to writing novels for quite a while. And so...

[KARLI] Has it been consistent for you since then? Or did you like to have a little bit of time where you were doing other things? And then you came back to it more recently?

[PENNY] No, I was I was pretty consistent with my writing as, at any point that I could. There was sort of a joke in the house that I'd never asked to play video games, I would ask if I could go on Microsoft Word, because we had like one computer that was in the middle of the living room. [Karli chuckles] And you know, I had to go make sure nobody else had it for whatever school or something else they were doing. And I would ask, can I go on Microsoft Word and work on my story?

[KARLI] That's awesome.

[JAMIE] So much of this is already relatable. One, okay, so we have another homeschool baby.

[PENNY] Yeah. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Two, I remember when we got our first computer. Because you know, we're all that age where we've come into the digital age. It was like a big deal. And you get a computer and it's dial up. And you have to like ask permission.

[PENNY] Oh, my gosh, yes.

[KARLI] And you all sit down and watch the internet load? Because you're like, oh, my gosh, this is the internet.

[JAMIE] And then you fight over with your siblings, because you both want to be on MS Paint.

[PENNY] [all laugh] Oh, my gosh, yeah.

[KARLI] [laughing] I forgot about paint!

[PENNY] I totally forgot about paint. That is so true.

[KARLI] Yep.

[JAMIE] So Penny, do you have just like a backlog of trunked novels?

[PENNY] Oh my goodness.

[JAMIE] From your growing and development phase?

[PENNY] [laughs] So many.

[KARLI] That's so great, though, because you have been writing consistently...

[PENNY] Oh, yeah.

[KARLI] For so long, you've learned—you've found your voice.

[PENNY] Yeah, I had to learn to appreciate that. Because I have a hard time finishing things, I get bored really easily. So I have so many started stories, you know, short stories, or scripts or novels or whatever. And I just never went back and either finished them or edited them. So I have some that are like completed first drafts. But they were never ever touched again. [chuckles] And for a very long time, I didn't really consider how valuable it was that I just kept writing. And I thought, you know, unless I finish something, it doesn't really count. So I viewed my years of consistently writing as not quite a failure, but pretty close. When I got older, I had to learn that it was actually just good that I had written something and just kept writing.

[JAMIE] Yeah, the practice and the consistency has its own value.

[PENNY] Mhmm.

[KARLI] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] Like you said, learning all those stories structure thing. Yeah. And a lot of writing is something that you can only learn through repetition and time.

[PENNY] So annoying. [all laugh] I just want to be good at it now.

[KARLI] Right?

[JAMIE] I feel like no writer's a good writer on a first draft. [chuckles]

[PENNY] No.

[JAMIE] It's all about the editing.

[PENNY] And every draft is different.

[KARLI] Yes.

[PENNY] Oh, yes. As we established, it's all the editing. That's the secret. That's the secret to good writing is editing.

[KARLI] It's the secret sauce. That's fantastic. So it's been really fun to watch you drafting 'cause I feel like I you started following you before you were actually publishing things. So it's been really cool to see you keep showing up and you keep bringing the words. So do you have any current projects that you're working on right now that you want to talk about?

[PENNY] I always want to talk about stories. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Great.

[PENNY] It's actually really difficult because some parts of this project that I'm working on are still a little bit secret, but I can talk about my favorite parts. My dad was in the Air Force for my whole childhood. So we moved every two years, you know, just all over the world, England, Germany. And when I was around 13, and 14, I think, we moved to Korea, which I didn't even know existed [chuckles] until my mom said, "Hey, we're going to Korea." I was like, what's that? I thought we were going to Texas and like nope, we're going the opposite side of the world.

[JAMIE] To be fair, usually in the military, if you're moving, it's to Texas. [all chuckle]

[PENNY] This is true. Yeah, it turned out to be one of the coolest experiences of my entire life. I absolutely fell in love with Korea. I think partly because it was just so different from anything, you know, just culturally and the landscape and the lang—just everything was was all new and exciting. We got to live on the economy. So not on the, on the military base. Like in the middle of a bunch of rice paddies and just down the farm road from a temple.

[KARLI] That's so cool.

[PENNY] Right in the middle of Korea.

[JAMIE] Really immersive.

[PENNY] Yes. And it was so cool. It's such an impression on me. And my my first novel that I wrote with the one year adventure novel was an Asian fantasy story because it just, it stuck with me it became part of me and after I finished publishing The Hollow Star and I was trying to decide, okay, what should I do next? I was working on a princess in the tower, a dragon slayer type story, and I just kept feeling the pull to "I just really want to go back to an Asian fantasy story." And then this opportunity came along and I decided okay, we're gonna do that. Which is the nice thing about being someone who, quote unquote, gets bored easily. The positive side of that is that I am very flexible. So I can just kind of decide. I was totally going to write this. But now I'm completely switching gears. And I'm going to write this instead. Because that's just the opportunity that's, that's here right now. So I was able to just switch over and it's been so much fun. I've—it's a little bit longer than The Hollow Star, which isn't too hard, because The Hollow Star isn't isn't really that long.

[KARLI] But I found The Hollow Star to be a really nice length. I really enjoyed it. It was—

[PENNY] Oh, yay.

[KARLI] It was beautiful, by the way, beautifully written.

[PENNY] Thank you.

[JAMIE] I think we just mentioned that on another episode, where it's like, not everything has to be 100,000 words to be a good story.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[PENNY] Yes. Yeah, I definitely learned a lot about short fiction writing The Hollow Star. I've been afraid of short fiction for so long, because I talk a lot. [chuckles] And I write a lot and I overwrite everything. I learned. I grew so much as a writer just with that story.

[KARLI] There's so much satisfaction in the completing of something like that. I feel that. I do that, too. I overwrite and so short fiction is definitely been a good learning experience for me.

[PENNY] Yeah, it really teaches you how to be concise and focus on structure and... the second novel that I wrote was like 97,000s, you know, high fantasy super developed everything. [laugh] I went from that to Melody, which was the mermaid one.

[KARLI] I beta read for you.

[PENNY] Yes, I can, ahh, I can never remember who it was who did that.

[KARLI] Yes. [both laugh]

[PENNY] I'm so sorry.

[KARLI] No that's fine. That was a while ago. And I find the beta reading process to be pretty overwhelming. So it's okay if you purged that. [laughs]

[PENNY] Yeah, just a little. So that one was, like 70,000. And then I went and wrote like an 11,000 little novelette. It was, it was definitely an experience. And it was a very positive experience for me as, as a writer, so definitely recommend anyone who's listening, go write some short fiction. [chuckles] It's so good for you.

[KARLI] What sorts of things do you enjoy reading? And do you tend to write similar things that you read? Like, is it a lot of fantasy or...

[PENNY] I do read a lot of fantasy. I'll read like older mystery stories like Agatha Christie, or you know, Sherlock Holmes, that kind of thing. Most recent books. I'm mostly just interested in the fantasy ones. I haven't actually read a lot of Asian fantasy. So I should probably do that. [laughs]

[KARLI] A little bit of research.

[PENNY] A little bit. See most of it is just from you know, when I lived in Korea, so...

[KARLI] Your inspiration from your experience, yeah.

[JAMIE] But it can be super helpful to like, to know your comps in that field. And...

[PENNY] Yeah, exactly. Comp titles.

[JAMIE] If you like this book, you might like my book kind of thing.

[PENNY] Yes. If you like Avatar The Last Airbender, probably like not quite as cartoon kid. But similar. Mostly because of the world building.

[JAMIE] The fact that that's cartoon is the the kid-est thing about it, even though it's, it is suitable for all ages. It just funny because me and my husband literally finished watching it for like the sixth time.

[PENNY] Oh my gosh, yes. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Like two days ago. And now we're reading the entire comic book series that's in between that and Korra.

[PENNY] Oh, cool. I didn't know there was a comic book.

[JAMIE] It's really good too.

[PENNY] That's awesome. Kindred spirits.

[JAMIE] I'm so deep into Avatar. It's ridiculous.

[PENNY] Awesome. Yeah. I'm always a little bit worried if I say it's like Last Airbender, people are gonna think, oh, it's like really kid-ish and stuff. But most of the people I've said, it's like Avatar, they will go oh, my goodness, I love Avatar.

[KARLI] Find your people. That's just, that's your target audience, people who like that. And if they like it, then they know.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I understand why it comes off as, quote unquote, kid-ish because it is a cartoon that was originally made for children.

[PENNY] Right. Yeah.

[JAMIE] The animation is a younger animation, but story arc and character development—

[PENNY] So good!

[JAMIE] And even subject matter and moral obligation is such a huge part of that story. So I'm like, don't worry, don't worry about it.

[PENNY] [laughs] Okay, cool.

[KARLI] Jamie's been trying to get me to watch Avatar for years. I will. I will. [Penny laughs] I have nothing against it. I just haven't gotten to it yet.

[JAMIE] My trick is I just have to wait till her kid is old enough to be into it. And then I gotta hook him into it. And then she'll have to watch it by proxy.

[PENNY] Yeah, exactly. We've watched it twice now with our kids. And it's been kind of fun because our oldest daughter is six and so she's able to kind of understand what's going on a little bit better than the first time she watched it. And so she's like, super into it and really worried about the characters and everything. It was almost like watching it again for the first time. It was so much fun.

[JAMIE] Yeah, by the last book, it's a serious issue. And so it's like they do have to be, depending on your child, I would say between six and ten to comprehend.

[PENNY] Yeah.

[JAMIE] The level and the seriousness of like by the end of the story. It's a very gradual build, we'll wrap up the Airbender talk. When it was originally airing. It was a lot like growing up with Harry Potter, like you grow up as the books come out, but now that you can binge it...

[KARLI] It's a different experience.

[JAMIE] It's a different experience for younger children. Yes. Anyway.

[KARLI] So the Avatar the Last Airbender talk with Penny Kearney. [Penny laughs] There we go.

[JAMIE] We could just do a whole Airbender episode.

[PENNY] We could!

[JAMIE] I'll get you. I'll get Josiah.

[KARLI] And I'll just sit in the background and you guys just go for it.

[PENNY] Make, you know, appropriate noises. Oh, that's so interesting. Hmmm.

[KARLI] Yeah wow. [all make intrigued noises] So I feel like now might be a good time to ask you a few questions about self publishing. We're always so interested to hear about people's experiences with it. I really wanted to get you on because they feel like you've had a sprinkling of different sorts of things. I know that at one time, and I don't know if you still do, had published to Wattpad. I am curious how you got to the point to start with self publishing.

[PENNY] Yeah, I've published on Wattpad. And I self-published through Kindle Direct on Amazon. And I published in an anthology, which is also on Amazon. I think it's on Amazon plus.

[KARLI] So which stories did you publish to those sites?

[PENNY] The Hollow Star is published on Amazon as its own book, the one that you see all over my Instagram feed. [chuckles] And the first version of it, the first published version of it, is also in an anthology Beyond the Beast, which was published through a like a small, boutique, indie publishing company that unfortunately, isn't really around anymore, called Wonder Heart Books. The anthology is still available on on Amazon, but I think the company kind of quietly went away, unfortunately.

[KARLI] And then Wattpad, was that Melody?

[PENNY] Yes, I have the first few chapters of Melody on Wattpad. I really enjoy Wattpad I think the serial nature that you can achieve with Wattpad is really fun. And I have always wanted to do like a TV show style story, you know, where you release an episode every every week or so. So I plan to go back to that at some point whenever the whenever the opportunity arises. But the first few chapters of Melody are on there.

[KARLI] And Melody is your Little Mermaid retelling?

[PENNY] Yep, Little Mermaid and Cinderella all mashed together. Since I was mixing the Little Mermaid and Cinderella I read the original Hans Christian Andersen Little Mermaid, which is tragic and beautiful and...

[KARLI] So dark. [laughs]

[PENNY] So dark [Penny and Karli laugh] and like spiritual and stuff.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] Which we just talked about.

[KARLI] We had a magic episode and we talked a little bit about how dark fairy tales are like, they're in their original form. We're like, Oh my God. [laughs]

[PENNY] Yeah, my sister Rose is just fairy tale crazy. And yeah, she can tell you, like the stepsisters cutting off their feet so they can fit into the shoe and stuff like that. [laughs] Like okay. So yeah, I was gonna put a little bit more of a tragic spin on Melody, just based off of reading the Hans Christian Andersen and I was going to take out the quintessential Cinderella ballroom scene and switch it around for something slightly darker from The Little Mermaid. And I told my sister Rose that and she told me, there was no way I was allowed to take out the ball scene. [Penny and Karli laugh] It had to happen exactly like in Cinderella, or else.

[KARLI] Or else. You're like, hey, this is mine.

[PENNY] I tried that. It didn't work. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Yeah, you could do whatever you want. But I will say that, that it's one of those things where it's like, well, if you tell people Cinderella, they will expect a ball.

[KARLI] True story.

[PENNY] I know. There has to be a prince charming. There has to be a ball or there's going to be riots. And you know...

[JAMIE] You're not making good on the promise.

[PENNY] Yeah.

[KARLI] Heads will roll.

[PENNY] Yeah, mine mostly. [Penny and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE] So you've had quite a few different experiences as far as putting your work out there. Why is it that you chose to do self publishing? Like for The Hollow Star? Did you ever consider like any other avenues? Or did you always know that you were going to self-publish?

[PENNY] I thought about traditional publishing. But I like to do things my own way. [chuckles] It was a good experience to publish with Wonder Heart in the anthology, because that was with someone else being in charge of here's the plan, you know, here's the deadline. It was good to do that one time. It kind of reinforced in me that yeah, I'd like to self publish because I don't know. I'm, I'm the oldest of nine. I like to be in charge I guess. [laughs] I'm not very good at being told what to do.

[KARLI] So it sounds like you're grateful for the experience.

[PENNY] Yeah.

[KARLI] You're like thank you so much, and this was great. But also in moving forward, I know that I want to do.

[PENNY] Yeah. Which was good because If I didn't have to sign, you know, some big contract with a big company or anything and then really be locked in. It was, it was nice to do it on kind of a smaller, slightly more more casual scale. And know for sure, like, yeah, next time, I'm definitely doing it at my own pace. And I have always wanted to be a wife and a mom. I mean, I've been writing for so long, I could have gone to college for a creative writing degree, I could have tried to get an agent and go like the career writer, path, author path, traveling all over for book tours and stuff. But I wanted to be I want to be a wife and a mom. And thankfully, self publishing at this point, technology at this point has made it so I can still write and publish books on my own schedule, and not have to worry about am I taking too much time away from the kids and feeling like I'm missing out on stuff. That was another reason I really wanted to self-publish was to just totally be in charge of what do I want to prioritize? And if I'm in a season where I need to just drop something, and focus on family, whatever, because I mean, especially being in the military, there's seasons where it just everything is absolutely crazy. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yeah, exactly.

[PENNY] Some things just need to go on the back burner.

[JAMIE] There's nothing like being told you're going to move in a month and a half.

[PENNY] Yeah, good times. [laughs]

[JAMIE] You're like, cool, cool, cool. If you have any other type of career, and you're not a full time spouse and parent, that can be real tricky, real fast.

[PENNY] Yeah, for sure. And I've seen that happen to people around me.

[JAMIE] You don't always have a lot of notice with what's going on, and having that flexibility. So you've enjoyed self-publishing and your plan is in the future, that's what you continue to do.

[PENNY] Yeah, definitely.

[KARLI] There is so much flexibility with that. So I can totally see where that is very appealing to you.

[JAMIE] So writing The Hollow Star, beta reading, editing, from the point where you felt like it was finished; how long did your self publishing experience from like, the time you were like, alright, I'm ready to it being available for others to read.

[PENNY] Are you including the anthology? Or do you mean like when I published it myself?

[JAMIE] When you published it yourself.

[PENNY] I knew that I wanted to publish it myself after I wrote it. So I knew that as soon as the rights reverted back to me, which was going to be a year from when it was published in the anthology a year from then. So then I was planning already, the next year, when the rights come back to me, I'm gonna self publish this, but like, I didn't touch it or anything.

[JAMIE] Because it was published in the anthology, it was already like, formatted.

[PENNY] Nope, I redid everything. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Did you do that in that year period of time?

[PENNY] No, I didn't.

[JAMIE] So you waited until it was completely reverted to you and then you started your self-publishing—okay. So from that point of that year, how long did it take you—

[KARLI] After that?

[PENNY] I want to say it was, I feel like it was around six months, maybe a tiny bit longer.

[JAMIE] Okay.

[PENNY] Yeah, it was, it wasn't super long. But I was starting with the story that I didn't have to do from scratch. All I did was self-edit. So I didn't have to send it off to an editor.

[PENNY] Yeah, 'cause it's, writing a book and polishing a book, are like a completely different beast and animal to publishing a book.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Lots of people publish books that don't write books.

[PENNY] Yes.

[JAMIE] They are two different things entirely.

[PENNY] Yeah. They really are. It's like switching to the other side of your brain, you know.

[PENNY] Different skill sets.

[KARLI] Yeah, you have to wear multiple hats when you self-publish, from what I have seen and heard other people's say.

[PENNY] Yes.

[KARLI] But it sounds like that is appealing to you for a lot of reasons.

[PENNY] Oh, yes.

[KARLI] I'm glad that you found that for yourself.

[PENNY] Yes, self-publishing fits what it is that I want to do. I could just write and post on Wattpad. One of the struggles with Wattpad is I don't know where the Wattpad crew is. As far as I can tell, there's not a huge Wattpad readership on Bookstagram, or Writergram. So as far as marketing goes, I actually enjoy marketing. So I don't mind doing it. I just don't know where to find them. So I'd have to explore the Wattpad arena a little bit more to figure out how do I actually get eyes on the story?

[JAMIE] Is there ways to monetize Wattpad? Or is that all free?

[PENNY] I think so? I think you can monetize.

[JAMIE] Interesting.

[PENNY] I know, there's some stories that you have to read using tokens. So like as a reader, you can go and you can read a bunch of free ones. And then some of them you have to purchase tokens in order to like, unlock the rest of the chapters or something like that.

[KARLI] Interesting.

[JAMIE] That's a whole other beast.

[PENNY] So I would have to learn it really well. I would be willing to if I got to that, you know season of writing but right now I just really like having a physical book in my hand. [chuckles] So you know...

[KARLI] Oh, absolutely.

[PENNY] Like, look, I wrote this! Here, do you want one? [laughs]

[KARLI] Well, I totally get that, I got The Hollow Star physical copy because it's like, I could have gotten it on Kindle, but it's just like, it’s, it's a book. It's a physical book. It's just nice to hold it in your hand.

[PENNY] It really is.

[KARLI] Did you have a Two Cent Recommendation that you wanted to share with us?

[PENNY] Has Save the Cat! Writes a Novel been recommended?

[KARLI] Not in this portion. So you go right ahead.

[KARLI] Okay, Save the Cat! Writes a Novel is the book that I use for figuring out my story structure. I've read a few writing, you know, how to write better books. But I have a struggle getting through nonfiction. And this one was amazing, it was really well laid out. So that helped me a lot. And I've periodically read through the whole thing, because you can read through just the first section on the different story beats, and then you don't have to read like the entire thing. You can just go pick. It has the different genres in there too, which is super insightful. But you don't have to read every single one, you can just read the one that applies to you. So it's actually not a very long read unless you want to read the whole thing. And I find that super nifty. So a plug-in for that one.

[JAMIE] I haven't read Save the Cat! Writes a Novel, I read Save the Cat! The original for screenplays, which my brain converts.

[PENNY] Right.

[JAMIE] And that is the only writing book that I use consistently or ever reference back to. Thank you for the recommendation.

[KARLI] Yeah, that's a great one for the three act structure. And the novel version helped me because my brain cannot convert from screenplay to novel. So I found it very helpful as well. Thank you so much for sharing that.

[PENNY] Sure thing.

[KARLI] Thank you so much for joining us and chatting with us. It was really great to get a chance to get to know you. You can find penny on Instagram @pennykearneybooks. And you can find The Hollow Star on Amazon and it's good. You should read it.

[PENNY] Thank you.

[KARLI] It's beautiful.

[JAMIE] Thank you so much for being here.

[PENNY] Yeah, thanks for having me. It's been a blast. If you know, just come on and talk to a bunch of writers like that's a no brainer. I like talking to writers so...

[JAMIE] Boom.

[PENNY] Yeah. [chuckles]

[KARLI] You can find us on Instagram, Twitter, we have a website. All the links are in the liner notes of the episode.

[JAMIE] Find us at The Act Break. Pretty much anything that you write The Act Break, Google finally takes you to us.

[KARLI] Yay!

[JAMIE] We've arrived. [all chuckle]

[KARLI] Thank you so much.

[JAMIE] Talk to you later, internet friends.

[PENNY] Bye!

[KARLI] Bye!

Fun & Games - Transcript

[JAMIE] Preparing for these always like makes me be like hmm. Looking at fun and games; that's kind of like your mid 30s are kind of the fun and games leading up to whatever this midpoint is. Which makes sense why it's such a mess. [both chuckle]

[KARLI] That tracks. Yeah, I was wondering where you were going with this and like it's the squishy place where like I'm getting squishy?

[JAMIE] It's just a mess. Everything has gone wrong.

[KARLI] We're way out in the weeds in our lives. [laughs]

[JAMIE] But unlike a good story, my fun and games is not making good on the promise of the premise. [both laugh]

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Welcome back to The Act Break Podcast, the podcast with literally 10s of listeners. [Karli laughs] It's okay to be impressed everybody. I am Jamie react, floundering aspiring author and I am joined by...

[KARLI] Karli, the writer who can never seem to get past the fun and games stage of her stories. [Jamie chuckles] So really happy to be here talking about this particular topic today.

[JAMIE] It's not an easy topic either, because it's the worst. So thanks for being here. Today, we decided to talk about something it seems most of us writers struggle with at one time or another or all the time maybe [Karli chuckles] is that pesky middle portion of the story. That wobbly middly bit leading up to and including the midpoint of your story. If you are familiar with Blake Snyder's beat sheet, this would include the B story, fun and games, and midpoint—emphasis on the fun and games today.

[KARLI] Yeah. The fun and games is it's definitely more aptly named the murky middle for me, I don't have fun while doing the fun and games.

[JAMIE] It's much more of a...

[KARLI] It's much more of a dank swamp.

[JAMIE] Swimming through a marshland. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] Getting stuck. And my boot comes off in the mud with that squelching sound. It's bad, it's bad.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I could just see you and you look behind you and you're like, leave it.

[KARLI] Leave the boot. Nobody needs it.

[BOTH] It's not worth it.

[JAMIE] How do you approach your murky middle when you're coming up to it?

[KARLI] Whooo. I've put a lot of thought into this actually, even before preparing for this episode. Because it is it's my weakest spot. If I can get past the fun and games and hit the midpoint. It's usually like a down—like, you know, downhill, not like downhill going bad—but like, you know, I can just roll downhill to the end and it's fine. Typically, my approach to Fun and Games is "pants it, it doesn't matter!" And then I get stuck. And I think that that's because that's the one part of my story I probably shouldn't pants, I should prepare it a little bit more. So I have actually more recently been trying to like sit down and think, okay, what are the steps that they need to do and the things that need to happen in order to get them to the midpoint? Because I usually have a pretty good idea of like, where my midpoint should be what I want to happen, because it's usually something more exciting.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Like I said, I'm—this ain't my strong suit.

[JAMIE] Well, this episode should help all of us. What's funny about being a writer is a lot of people have the same advice, but it's because you have to hear it over and over again.

[KARLI] [laughing] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Personally besides the finale, this is the hardest part. I mean, sometimes depending on the story, it's harder than the finale. But for me, this is always like the most challenging section to get to work correctly.

[KARLI] Yeah. Because you want that really good lead up. So how do you go about that? The approach of the thing.

[JAMIE] I used to struggle even more, but there was this one concept in Save the Cat that usually saves me now.

[KARLI] You have been saved. You're the cat?

[JAMIE] Yes, I am the cat. "Hang in There." Just like the poster. [Karli laughs] Is that fun and games is where you make good on the promise of the premise. If I pitched a romp through the multiverse, this is where all the romping would happen. In a rom-com, this is where the happy falling in love part happens. It's the last deep exhale before the turn of the story. Because at your midpoint, everything shifts and changes. At that point, all the stakes go higher. So it's this last opportunity to have things that fit in to the before of your story. But even knowing that, it's still the part where I'm like, okay, but what does that mean for the story? [chuckles]

[KARLI] Right?

[JAMIE] Like, what needs to happen? Now that we have the details of what funding games, quote unquote, murky middle is, we're gonna kind of talk about why it's important, because everybody gives so much attention to how your story starts, to hook people, and how it ends to give them a satisfying ending. But really, the middle part is just as important.

[KARLI] Cause it's the whole, the whole thing.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's why your reader picked up your book, especially if you're making good on whatever promise you've given them, which also directly correlates to genre expectations, and yada, yada, which we won't go into.

[KARLI] But that's a thing.

[JAMIE] That's a factor. [laughs] So I have like, what are some ways to approach it. And I was like, oh, perfect, because Karli touched on this when you were talking about it. The first step would be to figure out what your midpoint or the turn of the story is, then I know what the fund and games needs to end up at. Like you said, it's kind of the point where you really do need to plan some, because if you don't know what your middle is, you don't know what needs to happen to get to that point.

[KARLI] Yeah, I was just thinking of Wizard of Oz. Like, I don't know, all of a sudden in my brain, there was Wizard of Oz happening. You know, it's like they're trying to get to the Emerald City. And they have to go down the yellow brick road like that's, that's the fun and games, is them traveling down the yellow brick road to get to the Emerald City.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Whenever I like think of fun and games. It's really applicable in travel stories. Which are one of my favorite type of stories.

[JAMIE] Yeah, same. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Because anytime they're going from one location to the other, it's the adventures they're going to have on the road.

[KARLI] Yes, but I think that that's part of the thing that hangs me up is because I love travel stories. And I want to write travel stories. But it can't just be like anything happening. I mean, you could throw random events at them for sure. But your characters have to be reacting to it in a way that leads to the midpoint that makes it makes sense for that character to make a certain decision or whatever with whatever event happens at the midpoint. So you can't just be like, oh, yeah, like, and now they're going to meet this guy for no reason. And then he's going to disappear, [laughing] never appear again on the screen.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] You have to know the destination of the travel. And that's metaphorical doesn't mean that your destination literally is your midpoint. It's just the direction that they need to go in. Your midpoint could happen while travel is going on. Because your midpoint could just be the point in the story that your protagonist decides that everything they were going for was wrong. Or they decide to switch sides or they have a big realization, like, it could be anything.

[KARLI] Yeah, they change directions, they realize that their plan isn't going to work.

[JAMIE] But that's why figuring out your midpoint would be step one to me. Know where you're going.

[KARLI] See, I want to play devil's advocate here.

[JAMIE] Okay.

[KARLI] Because some people are discovery writers. And they don't want to plan that out. And they want to write to figure out where they're going. So I feel like, yes, that could potentially be very helpful to people; is knowing where they're going for the midpoint. But also, it could be... well, I guess you did kind of already say that in the sense of like, it doesn't have to be an actual like destination or event that you have in mind just knowing where you're going with the characters um...

[JAMIE] And also, I just feel like if there are people who are mostly pantsers writers, I'm not a pantser writer, so I couldn't give that person right advice on how to do that.

[KARLI] I just wanted to like point that out. Since you were like, yeah, figure, like just know where you're going. And so I just wanted to touch on that.

[JAMIE] I mean, I feel like even discovery writers, as long as you know where you're going, you can still discovery write yourself from one point to that point. A lot of things can happen in between those two that don't have to be determined in advance. You just have to know, well, eventually, we need to come to this point.

[KARLI] Yeah. Which is where I finally got to. I wanted to be discovery writer, like all the way just like, I don't want to play in anything. And I found that that actually didn't work for me. I just got lost in the murky swamp, and my boots are gone. And then I got to a point where yeah, I had to pick a thing that I was working towards, and then I was like, okay, well, if they're gonna go to this place, or if this is the thing that's going to happen, then what are some logical things that could happen along the way, or logical or fun or things that make it make sense.

[JAMIE] Yeah. My step two would be character goals. Character goals can help tell you what should be happening. Much like I was saying with like, it could be when your character realizes something, or depending on their arc, what types of things they need to experience to take them from where they started to where they're going. That could be the traumas they face along the road. You think fun and games, but that doesn't actually mean that everything's [laughing] fun and games. No, it could actually be very horrific.

[KARLI] Little bit more like a Saw game. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Yikes. But those character goals of growth can tell you what needs to be happening. If they lose someone or they win a million dollars, it can be anything!

[KARLI] Yeah, I honestly think that the easiest way out of that plight I find myself in is to actually take a look at my characters. Like if I don't know what event I'm working towards, or location I'm working towards, because I haven't planned it out yet. And I don't have an idea for it yet. Taking the time to look at my characters and going okay, what is it I'm doing with this character? What do they want, even if I don't know where that character is going to end up. Or even what decision they're going to make at the midpoint. When I'm in the fun and games I'm just trying to figure out, okay, who are they right now? What is their main motivation? What are they going for? What is it that they want most right now? And then making things happen to really solidify that in that character, or make them doubt that depending on what I feel like could be most interesting. And then that tends to naturally bring me to a better midpoint.

[JAMIE] Great point, because what your character wants and what their motivations are, and what actually ends up happening, don't have to be the same thing.

[KARLI] No.

[JAMIE] The next thing I thought about was that mid sections are where your B story has room to grow and shine. And then you can also use your B story as a spotlight for your themes in this section.

[KARLI] Which we touched on in the companion episode. Yeah. I agree with that assessment.

[JAMIE] Just like anything else, B stories could be a plethora of things. But because this section of the book, I feel like it's got more room to be like, let's focus on this little side story. Because the things they're dealing with or the themes will then play into the finale. Yeah. So that's another thing to think about when you're like, what goes here? B story.

[KARLI] Yeah, for sure. And I think for me, that's one of the reasons I struggle, because I either go way too far out in the weeds, or I'm afraid I'm going to do that. And then I don't do enough stuff in that section.

[JAMIE] Which I think is funny because your secondary characters often shine. And they're the ones who carry a B story. And I know for a fact that many people have given you feedback of, I want more of this particular character.

[KARLI] Right? [Jamie laughs] I know and it's so funny we and thank you for saying that though. Because that actually really helped me with what I'm working on right now. Because suddenly I'm writing this and I'm like, this side character is suddenly, has so much more space, but I really like it, but I'm like, but my main characters, it's okay. It's okay. They're there too. There's space for everybody. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Another thing, this is a good place to put or flesh out, is relationships, make or break. They don't have to be romantic, any type of relationship. This could be where your people bond through experiences. This could be where they're pushed to their breaking point.

[KARLI] Yeah, I was gonna say people great against each other and you know that like something's gonna happen. But what?

[JAMIE] Yeah, and so this is also where I think this has the most potential and is, in my robot writer, structure brain, this is where that goes.

[KARLI] Put it here. [laughs]

[JAMIE] It should be laced throughout, but it should definitely have a lot of room to breathe in this section.

[KARLI] Yeah, definitely. Because this section is where you're still getting to know the characters. You're still getting used to the world. You're still figuring out where we're going with all of this, like what is this all going to be about? Taking the time to flesh these things out... This is the place where you take room for all of that.

[JAMIE] My last kind of uh, advice, which is like, this is just a thing you can try, is what I call the no bad ideas portion of developing your story. This is how I work when I'm plotting where I'm like, oh, it's fun and games, I'm going to grab some index cards. And I'm going to start writing on each of them. Every like random, what could happen in this section? This is just like opportunities. This is the multiverse, anything could happen.

[KARLI] [chuckles] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I'm going to put it all down. And then I'm going to rearrange it. And then I'm going to cut some of it out. And you don't need to use every idea you have. You just word vomit them all out. [laughs] So then you can put them next to each other and find out which ones are good. And which ones are vomit. [both chuckle]

[KARLI] I agree. In theory. [laughs] I am not as good at doing that, which is really weird. Because like as a more of a pantser you would think or just be like, oh, it's fine, I can write anything. But I don't. I get really like in my head about it. And I don't take enough time to just put anything down just to try it and see what happens. Because I'm so nervous I'm gonna go out in the weeds, I overcorrect. I go too far the other way. And I completely agree with you that there, at this stage, you're still drafting, there really aren't any bad ideas at this point. Because even if it seems silly, like it could lead you to another thought or maybe you are able to flesh that silly thought out and make it less silly. Or if it's a silly story, then you know, embrace it. But you know what I mean.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and I would say don't put a lot of thought into it. The way I would go about it would be like, index card: What if they get a flat tire? Index card: What if they lose grandma? What if they like yada yada, yada? It's just like a big "what if" section. And then once I decide like what ideas sound the best, then I go back. It's an if, then scenario. If this happens, then this will need to happen. Nobody thinks that I'm like writing paragraphs of each idea. It's just like throwing spaghetti [laughing] at the wall.

[KARLI] At the wall and seeing what sticks? Yeah, well, and I've, I've definitely done that before, if I'm gonna have block, it's usually here to the point where like, I can't even think of things because I'm so in my head about it. There are actually like, idea generators and stuff on the internet. Like, if you're having that hard a time, like cycle through some of those. I mean, some of them are gonna be like, definitely not a fit, but you never know, like, what might like, click for you, if you read through those. And I've even like, done—gone so far as to like, read some and be like, I none of that sounds good to me. But I'm gonna write them all down anyways, because the tactile like pen to paper kind of starts getting me out of my head with writing things. And that's been very helpful in the past. So yeah.

[JAMIE] That's a good one.

[KARLI] How do you go about figuring out the importance of time spent on your B story and stuff during this section? Do you have tools or ideas or something like that, that helps you with this?

[JAMIE] I'm thinking about it because I literally am like, here's the most recent thing, uh...

[KARLI] She's got a whole stack of index cards, guys. She's flipping through a whole stack.

[JAMIE] They're numbered. They're also divided by paper clip.

[KARLI] They're color coded and everything, I bet.

[JAMIE] They're, these ones aren't color coded.

[KARLI] Oh, disappointed.

[JAMIE] Yet. [both laugh] I have Blake Snyder's beat sheet, the original for screenplays, and I know I've said this another podcast, but it is the only book on writing that I referenced back to doesn't work for everybody. There's a novel version do with that what you will. Karli asked me a question, so I'm answering. [laughing] And that's to look at Blake Snyder's beat sheet. So your question was basically like, how much time do you spend on this particular thing? What I consider like fun and games, even though it's the eighth beat in the thing, I consider that like, B story, fun, and games and midpoint kind of all go together. When you're thinking of like a five act structure, that would be act three. And it just depends on the story. Break into two which is you know, when your protagonist is like actively choosing to participate in what's going on.

[KARLI] Not just reactionary.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Where they've hopefully done something protagonisty.

[KARLI] They're protagging just a little bit at this point.

[JAMIE] Yeah, they're protagging. And then that's going to be like, oh, your your experiences now that you've made that choice leading up to the midpoint that is like basically your first taste of consequences for whatever choice you've made.

[KARLI] Mm. I like the way you said that.

[JAMIE] It just kind of depends, it just is figuring out your midpoint and figuring out all the little steps that have to happen for your character for it to make sense that they've come to the midpoint. So how many, how long it takes you or how to do that depends on your genre and how you write and your writing style.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, that's true.

[JAMIE] But all the plot points need to be there. Because if you're like, oh, they've chosen this, and this is their midpoint. And there's not a logical progression of choices and situations that lead to the midpoint, then your readers aren't going to buy it.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So it's, as long as all the plot points in this section for everything to make sense. That's how long it will be. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. And you do the best you can with it. And then you have, have your people read it and let you know. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Like we said, if you write a bunch of things down, all those ideas I had, a plot point needs to be hidden within each of those.

[KARLI] Yeah, there needs to be something...

[JAMIE] I just finished editing a book. And in it, I have like a whole section, these two, one to two chapters, were completely unnecessary. I can cut them out. And it won't make a bit of difference.

[KARLI] If yeah, if you can do that, then obviously you have a problem. Either put something in there so that you can keep it or just remove them. If you can't. I had while you were talking a memory of you laying out index cards on my table for Twilight of Gods and we had color coded them and you're like, see this color, there's like there's too much space between this color and that color like you you have a very like visual mind where you're like, see this, like there's not going to be enough for it to make sense for this character. I was like, oh, ohh!

[JAMIE] Yeah. Ohhh!

[KARLI] Oh, I see.

[JAMIE] And it also depends on like, how you want to balance your book.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely.

[JAMIE] But also, the industry has changed, because it's like, well, if you think about like The Lord of the Rings, sometimes you can go huge amounts of time without seeing characters. It's different now.

[KARLI] I was so mad about how long I had to wait to find out if Pippin was dead or not.

[JAMIE] I was just gonna say like, Merry and Pippin. You're like, where are they? What's happening?

[KARLI] Are they dead?

[JAMIE] Oh my gosh, where are the halflings?! The sum up, fun and games can be lower stakes, plot wise, but it still requires plot, 'cause it's just as important as your beginning and your end.

[KARLI] Yes, we need to feel when we reach the midpoint, like we... it was time well spent.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Because this is the point where it could easily be that your readers decide to put your book down.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And so it still needs that purpose. It still needs to be just as captivating. You need to keep them interested in the middle to want and care about your end.

[KARLI] Yep.

[JAMIE] You are not alone. It's just a hard section of the book, writer.

[KARLI] [laughing] Yes.

[JAMIE] It's—we've all been. And if you haven't been there—

[KARLI] [dramatic whisper] You will be.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] That was so much nicer than when I was gonna say. [Karli laughs] Do you have a two cent recommendation?

[KARLI] Here's my recommendation for this week. Look at one of your favorite books or movies, and watch it again, with a notebook and take notes about the things that are happening to your, to the characters, after the catalyst. Okay, there's that big, you know, thing that happens that sends them off on their adventure and things start happening before the middle of the movie, start taking notes about what happens. What are their reactions to it? What, how does that bring them to the decision that they make in the midpoint? And then think about that for your story.

[JAMIE] Great recommendation. And thanks for listening, subscribe and write a review if you, you know, you feel like it. Or if you don't feel like it. No, definitely only if you feel like it. Like if you feel really good and like super, super generous. [Karli chuckles] Then write a review. Links to our social media are in the episode description, as well as the transcript link. Good luck on your fun and games and we will talk to you next week.

[KARLI] Bye, internet friends.

Death of the Author - Transcript

[JAMIE] I feel like we really missed an opportunity to call this the unprepared podcast. I feel like it would have been almost more accurate than our current title. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Probably. Yeah.

[A.P.] I don't know what you're talking about. I've got two wiki articles and the original Death of the Author article, ready to go.

[KARLI] Wow, I did zero preparation.

[JAMIE] You pulled the original?

[A.P.] Well not the original, original this was this is the translation into English, since it was originally written in French.

[KARLI] Oh, you can't read French?

[JAMIE] Why didn't you just study the French? If you were really prepared, you would have learned French for this episode.

[A.P.] [Speaks French}

[JAMIE] Well. [Karli laughs]

[A.P.] That's that brushing up against the limit of my french.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Perfect.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE]  Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE]  Welcome back to The Act Break Podcast today we are joined by, is it a guest as much as it is just a presence that is sometimes here? Our prints of pontification, A.P. Thayer is also with us. [all laugh] I don't know how you feel about being called—

[A.P.] No, because I was gonna try and say something funny, but my gosh, I kind of like that. [Karli laughs]

[JAMIE] Yeah, I mean, who can pontificate better. It's also very convenient that one of our most available during our usual time slot friends also happens to be very knowledgeable [chuckling] and good at spewing whatever subject—

[A.P.] Are these backhanded compliments? I—I'm like... [all laughing] I'm trying to—

[JAMIE] It's call a compusult.

[A.P.] [laughing] Okay.

[KARLI] Welcome to my world. A.P. I'm always like, was that a compliment? I mean...

[A.P.] Yeah. Am I supposed to feel good about this?

[KARLI] Do I feel good about what just happened?

[JAMIE] I said that you were so knowledgeable. So how is that…

[A.P.] Of all the people that are available at 9:30 [Jamie and Karli laughing] in the morning during the weekday?

[JAMIE] You know, I have a style of humor. And can't—

[KARLI] She can't just flip—

[A.P.] Either you get it or you don't, really like that's... [laughs]

[KARLI] You can't just flip a switch.

[JAMIE] All I'm saying is A.P. keeps showing up so it can't be that upsetting.

[A.P.] Like a bad penny.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Like just an abused dog.

[A.P.] You guys feed me sometimes.

[JAMIE] What a jerk. Me, that is. Speaking of me. My name is Jamie Redact. I am a speculative fiction author, and I am joined today by my co-host.

[KARLI] Karli— [makes noises] I don't even know who I am—

[JAMIE] Classic Karli.

[A.P.] Karli, the enthused. [chuckling]

[KARLI] Who am I? I am K.C. Ash, also known as Karli, and I write things occasionally. I'm also dead inside. [Jamie and A.P. laugh]

[JAMIE] Who's not? Do you want to say anything about the type of writer you are, A.P., because you are much more legitimate than the other people on this zoom call?

[A.P.] I take issue with the term legitimate first and foremost. I don't know, I kind of agree with the emotions that Karli just had [A.P. and Jamie laughing] with her introduction. You know, like, I feel that at a very deep level. I write speculative fiction. I like to blend genres. I enjoy writing shorter fiction than longer fiction. But my goal is to be a novelist.

[JAMIE] So your novels tend to be on the shorter side, I would imagine

[A.P.] They do actually. Yeah, like my current novel sitting at like 72,000.

[JAMIE] I wish more good [laughing] novels were that length. I don't always want to read 100,000 words.

[A.P.] I like never want to read 100,000 words. I don't even want to read my 72,000 words. [all laugh]

[KARLI] Well listen, none of us really want to read our own work as many times as we have to, so that's, that's relatable.

[JAMIE] Let's get to the topic. Today we're talking about "The Death of the Author." What it means and our take on it. Like what we believe to be the Death of the Author and then maybe what it actually originated as, but I feel like I'm gonna be leaning heavily on A.P. this episode. [laughing]

[A.P.] No, no don't—I mean, I feel like I've found myself in the same place you you both have for when it comes to this because my—when I first heard of "The Death of the Author," I had no idea it was you know, an actual thing by you know, written by a Frenchman 50, 60 years ago.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I started doing a little bit more research for this and I was like, oh, it's like a whole essay, and concepts… [mimicks snoring]  So we're not gonna go deep into that.

[A.P.] Sure, sure. I wonder if my experience with it is the same as it was for the two of you. When I first heard it, I immediately, I can't remember if it was because of the context or just this is where my brain went. But it was like the separation of the art from the artist.

[KARLI] Mhmm.

[JAMIE] Huh, exactly what I thought like, break being able to make that separation.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Basically the moment a piece of art is released for public consumption, that is, to me when that break happens. Where it's like, the intent of the author becomes unimportant.

[KARLI] No, please explain it to me because I did zero research for this so someone could pretend to be interested...

[A.P.] Great.

[KARLI] In all of the theories and stuff. So— You're pretend to be interested. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Tell me, do tell.

[JAMIE] The best way I found it summarize is death of the author is a literary theory, that the author's intention or biographical facts should hold no weight in determining an interpretation of their work.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Usually understood as a writers view about their own works are no more or less valid than any readers interpretation.

[A.P.] Exactly, yeah. Yeah, my understanding—again, this is like a layman's basic understanding—is in the 60s, Roland Barthes did this essay basically going against what the general thought was in the zeitgeist at the time. Which was like, oh, you know, anytime you read a piece or critique a piece, you have to take into account the author's background and their baggage and all that to really understand it. And he came out saying, like, no, actually the opposite. You need to like completely leave that at door, because it's no longer the author's, it's, you know, it belongs to the reader at that point.

[JAMIE] It's not something I thought intensely about. It was just like you said, A.P., as soon as I heard it, I just assumed what it meant, because I think it's appropriately named.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] To convey what it means. And while I do think, depending on how something is marketed, it can be important author, background and all that. But I prefer to just interpret things how I see them on the page. I guess that's my question to everybody. When it comes to death of the author, where do you stand on it?

[A.P.] I definitely waffled back and forth a little bit, I think I probably lean a little bit more towards the death of the author, because you know, what I'm writing, I'm writing for the reader. And anything that they pick up based off of my background, or my baggage, or my interpretation is cool. And like, I'm into that, but I'm trying to get the reader to feel something and they've got their own, you know, background and, and baggage and all that. So getting them to take something I wrote and personalizing to themselves and their experiences is, is I think, cooler.

[KARLI] Yeah, I do agree with that, building off of what you're saying, having somebody read something you wrote, they are almost never going to get it from your viewpoint, unless they had a very similar upbringing, or, you know, their baggage matches yours. [chuckles] We all have our own point of view. And so having that inform their reading, everybody's going to have a different takeaway of some flavor, because everybody's point of view is different. I think it's more interesting to try to get somebody to get an emotion or a thought across, and then watch what people interpret that based on their own perspective.

[A.P.] You know, having said all that, and agreeing with what you just said, I do still think that the the other way of looking at it, you know, the way that Roland argued against of like taking into account the author's background can be important and can be really fulfilling as well. I think, especially when it comes to voices that have had less representation historically.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] Mhmm.

[A.P.] Obviously, especially in those cases, there's going to be like a huge bridge between maybe a certain reader and the author. And it can be used as excuse to be like, oh, I don't get this, I can't resonate with this, because I haven't had these experiences or whatever. So if you don't understand the experiences of the author, and you can't apply what you're reading to your own experiences, because they just it's a round peg in a square hole or whatever, then I feel like you're missing something. So taking that little bit of extra time, and yeah, it's time and work as a reader. But to understand where the author's coming from and seeing that background. I think it's probably good for everyone involved.

[JAMIE] Yeah. I agree with that. There's, I think it's, I think it's a David Sedaris quote where it's like, you shouldn't have to be from the same origins, to relate to people. We should relate to people because they're people. You can glean so much from reading outside of your own experiences. And that's super valuable. And that's where the backgrounds of authors is important to have more representation because reading fiction also makes people more compassionate and empathetic.

[KARLI] I was gonna bring that up.

[JAMIE] There's like, scientific studies of that.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[A.P.] Totally.

[JAMIE] And then also for clarity, I wanted to mention we're we're talking about, quote unquote, art and fiction, because if you are looking at books, nonfiction, it becomes very important—

[KARLI] Yeah.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] To look at somebody's origin. Non-fiction is not what we're referring to, because that's a whole different bag of cats. [A.P. and Karli chuckle]

[KARLI] Most definitely, yeah, I was gonna bring up the empathy thing, it's important to diversify your reading in order to try to look at life from different perspectives, because there isn't just one way of thinking, or a certain set of ways of thinking. And in order to do that, sometimes I think you do need to look at the author and try to understand where they're coming from, and what their intent was in writing it. And even if you don't end up agreeing with a certain philosophical viewpoint, or whatever, it's worth looking into, because then you know about it, and you're like, oh, that's, that's a thing I didn't know about before. So I agree, I definitely ride the line between the two kind of schools of thought on this, because I am interested in reading the biographies. And I want to know what time period they lived in, if it's modern, or if they're dead or alive, or what historical events were going on when they were writing because as writers, we... it's impossible to create in a vacuum. Our writing is informed based on our lives and the things that we experience and what we interpret, how we interpret the world around us. So I think that even if we don't, aren't trying to put that into our writing, it comes out because writing is a very cerebral and emotional thing. It's impossible to write a thing and not have your personality in it, unless you go back and delete it all out. But I mean…

[A.P.] Totally.

[KARLI] I don't think that that kind of stuff sells, because the reason we read is to have an emotional connection.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I definitely want people to use their, their personality and background in their writing. It's like the after the fact like, everything is going to be interpreted. You mentioned like looking at when it was written and what was going on in the world. Like, I almost feel like that's separate from the author, I would be more likely to be like, well, this book was published in 1964. So I'm aware of like the climate in 1964. And that's something to me, that is separate from the death of the author, like those are two different things.

[KARLI] Yes, yeah. That makes sense.

[A.P.] Yeah, I could see that. Because I think you're right. Yeah. Because a lot of this, in my mind, is like the intent of the author versus what they actually put on the page.

[KARLI] Yeah. Because sometimes, what you put on the page isn't, what your intention was. [chuckling]

[A.P.] Yeah, yeah.

[JAMIE] I recently had a meeting with somebody where I was like, I don't know if they didn't convey this. Or if it wasn't like what you intent sometimes doesn't always make it to the page. And so if you want that you need feedback to be like, hey, did I convey this? Not everybody is going to pick up on it, but they definitely can't pick up on it if it's not there.

[A.P.] Yeah, definitely. Like I was, I did want to talk about like, critique. And yeah, this comes to mind because we were talking about this, Jamie last week. How much of your intent you want to put on the page, versus like, you know, hammering someone over the head with it, because you like want them to get it but you don't have control over like what the reader gets and doesn't get. So you can just put what you think is sufficient for X amount of percentage of people to get it or people who you think might get it will get it but...

[KARLI] Not everybody's gonna get it.

[A.P.] It's tough to know.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's ineffable. [A.P. and Karli chuckle] Never know, what will be interpreted.

[A.P.] And, and that's when the death of the author is the thing. You know, like, once it's out there, you know, you can't change it. You can't like talk to every reader and be like, no, this is what I meant. And this is you know, where I'm coming from. It's like, no, it's their own personal thing.

[KARLI] I mean, I think that that's a whole can of worms, because like some authors do try to do. [laughing]

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I equate it to the same as explaining a joke. Like everybody loves when you have a joke explained. [all chuckle] If you wanted it in there, you should have put it in there. Don't, don't backpedal. Like, just let it go.

[KARLI] And I think that that going back to what we guys were talking about, with the importance of critique, and the importance of honesty, from people who are reading your work, people being—that is the time to be honest, you don't have to be brutally, so but...

[JAMIE] Sometimes you do.

[KARLI] Yeah. When you're reading for somebody else, it's not helpful to sugarcoat. If there's something that popped up for you or you were like, this is my reaction to this, especially when it's something more intense or potentially controversial or hurtful. It's important to note it because the author may not have realized that they did that thing. If you're going to critique for people or beta read for people or whatever, then that's part of the package, is pointing out those things.

[JAMIE] Yeah, that in itself can be nerve racking. I recently did that with A.P., where I was like, This is what I'm interpreting. And in my head, I was like, I could be totally off base. I could be 100% going in the...

[A.P.] I feel like you nailed it. I was like, yeah, she got it.

[JAMIE] But inside, I was like, I could be totally like, looking into things that are totally different. But that is where my mind went, and what I interpreted the story to be. That way the author knows, this is where you're taking me in this story?

[A.P.] Yeah, that's invaluable. Like that—I was gonna say the flip side of what you're saying is that as someone was writing, you want to get broad and diverse feedback so that you can see who gets it who doesn't get it? If no one gets it, then you're like, I didn't put it on the page. But if like, half the people get it, then you have this kind of like moment where like, is half enough? Like, do I want it to be kind of this thing? Where it's like, some people get it, some people don't?

[KARLI] Do I need to draw it forward more so that more people get it? Or am I satisfied with that point? For sure.

[A.P.] Exactly. If only one out of ten people got it. That's what I'm going for. [all laugh]

[KARLI] Perfect.

[JAMIE] It's so funny, because there's like a point in death of the author, as writers where you're like, you either get it or you don't. And it feels like such an artist thing. That mentality and be like, you just don't get it.

[A.P.] It's just not for you. [all laugh]

[JAMIE] You have to like let that go. And to give something to like the broader world.

[A.P.] Yeah, yeah.

[JAMIE] I like death of the author. And I use it in a lot of like, aspects of like, actors as well. There's a lot of actors that do things I disagree with. There are movies that they've put out that I love, and I'll watch over and over again. Like it's that separating the art from the artist.

[A.P.] Yeah, that's, that's, I'm glad we're talking about that, because that's definitely something that comes to mind. I mean, like, I grew up reading Lovecraft, you know, and that dude was...

[KARLI] [laughing] Highly problematic.

[A.P.] Racist, sexist, and a f*@%ing weirdo. You know, but I've come to terms with liking some of his work, because anytime I consume his work, I'm not giving him money because he's dead.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[A.P.] You know like, I'm not financially supporting a xenophobic weirdo.

[KARLI] And I was gonna ask how everybody felt about that. Because I think that that's where you start to come into play with this, where it's like, okay, you like the art, and you're separating the art from the artists. But then yeah, then there's the money aspect that you're financially supporting somebody that you disagree with, and where do we draw that line? How do we make those choices and stuff it gets really, it gets really murky really fast.

[JAMIE] It really just depends on the situation, whether you're really give—directly, or indirectly giving money to said artists, like, if I stream it on Netflix, is it benefiting that particular person or whatever? Like, is it gonna make a big difference if I get it from the library? Or like, whatever the situation is. That's a personal choice.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah.

[A.P.] Yeah. I've told myself that there's like a direct link to essentially me giving them money, then I just can't do it anymore. So like, when, when this stuff came out about Marilyn Manson, I was like, alright, well, I'm taking it off of Spotify. Like, I'm not, I'm not gonna be listening to you anymore.

[JAMIE] And you, Karli?

[KARLI] And me?

[JAMIE] Your opinion about contributing?

[KARLI] Oh, I mean, I'm the same as you guys on that. Like, there's some depends on the situation, what it is, who it is, what's happening with that, whether or not I you know, and it's, it's murky, but I yeah, there's things people that I actively want support. And sometimes there are people that people are like, I don't agree with them. I'm like, I don't agree with them either. But I don't think that they're hurting anybody by having a different opinion.

[JAMIE] The most obvious, and I feel like the easiest example of this is like, I grew up reading and loving Harry Potter.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And I still reread and love and watch the movies all the time. And that'll probably never change. But am I buying any new books from person—She Who Will Not Be Named. [all laugh]

[KARLI] Yeah.

[A.P.] Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought her up. Because when he talked about the death of the author, before we started this podcast that I immediately thought of that, because it's like the, the original seven books exist. And then also, she comes back and says all kinds of things that weren't in the texts, and it's like, oh, well, actually this and actually that, it's like, no, shut up. Like...

[JAMIE] I believe that. Sure. She may or may not have believed whatever she's saying. But like we said, once it comes out, that is no longer any more or less valid than any readers interpretation. [chuckling] That's like, you can think that, that's fine. I'm gonna think this, because the text I read, I interpreted this way.

[KARLI] Yeah, I don't believe that the text that I read supported that line of thinking, and yeah, you published it, you're like, that's it, you're done. I mean, there's no, there's no takebacksies.

[A.P.] Yeah, it's like she's writing her own fanfiction at this point. [Jamie and Karli chuckle]

[KARLI] When authors try to come in and adjust or defend their decision making process, I think it winds up just making a much bigger mess than if they just didn't say anything at all. Author's trying to defend or change or whatever, like you published it, like, you got to just leave it and walk away. And I'm sure, having not published anything, I feel like I can say that with a certain amount of, you know, maybe sounds a little flippant, because emotionally, it's difficult to let our art go.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] So I get why people feel the need to do that.

[A.P.] But also, just engaging in online discourse, when it comes to these kinds of things like shutting the f*@% up is free, you know? [all laugh]

[KARLI] Sure is, please do it.

[A.P.] Doesn't cost you a cent. If you want it in the text, put it in the text. And then the murky part comes when like, you're asked, well, what did you mean by this? If it's like some stranger on the internet, that's one thing. But if you become the sort of author who's like doing interviews or going to events, there is a chance that you're going to be asked, and I feel like you're within your right to answer that question. And some people will take that as gospel. Yeah, authors allowed to have their own opinion, too. But like, you don't have to. Yeah, totally. Like, like, I've seen so many authors be so artful about that stuff. And be like, well, you know, like, what did you think I meant? Or like, you know, this is kind of what I was thinking when I was writing it, but what was your interpretation? Like, there's so many ways to handle that. It's like, don't don't take that from the reader, you know?

[KARLI] Well, and I think that that's the whole thing with art. It's interpretive.

[JAMIE] Yeah, cuz I can think of several pieces of art. I say art, but I'm like thinking of like Avatar, The Last Airbender, which is art, but it's also a children's cartoon. So you know, but there's different pieces that I can think of where I've heard people's interpretations of it. And they are different than my interpretation. Where I'm like, I can see exactly why you made that interpretation. Makes sense, as well as this other interpretation. It's just these few little shifts, it could mean this, or it could mean that. That's the thing that I love about fiction in art, is it means different things to different people. And that's one of the things that makes art so valuable. It can speak to multiple people in multiple different places. And you guys both mentioned, evoke an emotion. And that's where the magic of art having the potential to be a transformative form. Art is so undervalued, and you're like, why? Have you seen what it can do?

[A.P.] Yeah.  Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah. I mean, I've even had things that I've read at different times in my life where I've gotten something different out of it each time.

[A.P.] Totally, yeah.

[KARLI] And I love that about it.

[A.P.] Yeah, like you said earlier, we don't write in a vacuum. We don't read in a vacuum either.

[KARLI] Yeah. And at different times in our life, we're going through different things. And we're more aware of different, hopefully, we're becoming more aware of other things in the world and other people—

[A.P.] [dramatic voice] More aware of the pain. [all laugh]

[KARLI] That too.

[JAMIE] We covered it all so well. Damn, we're eloquent. [all chuckle]

[A.P.] Yes, that's definitely the word that I would use.

[JAMIE] So as far as death of the author goes, in being a writer and finding the lines of where you kind of separate yourself from something, I think we kind of touched on it a little about you needing to have other people read and interpret it. That's like the big thing, especially if I have something that is supposed to be not maybe explicit on the page. I had multiple people read it. And then I kind of do my own poll of who's picking up on what aspects and then I will do another pass and get even more people and even more different people to see if those aspects are coming through enough. That's your time to, to hone that. [chuckles] And maybe that's one of the reasons why so many authors spend so much time working on something is because they're very worried about conveying exactly what they wanted to convey in the story. And so we spend years sometimes editing to be the perfect interpretation of what we wanted to achieve. When no matter how long you do that it's still going to go out there and people are going to interpret it differently. [chuckles]

[A.P.] Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, we talked sounded a little bit before and based on what you just said, I think got me thinking about intention again, you know, you wrote this piece and you got feedback. And then it's up to you to decide to have the intent. How much understanding do I want people to have of this? Like, how many people do I want to understand this? How hard do I want to hit this point? So I feel like as long as you are with intention, writing stuff, then whatever comes out is the best interpretation of, of what you're writing that you can do. Like, if you're okay, with only a portion of your readers getting it the way that you do and you're doing that with intention, then that's great. If you're writing something, and you want everyone to understand perfectly what you're saying, then you really need to work at that and be like, just really hanging a lantern on whatever point you're trying to make.

[KARLI] Yeah, I think that that's really my biggest challenge. When I started writing, I wanted people to see it exactly how I had envisioned it. And that became crippling, to the point where I stopped writing for a while. So coming back to it the last couple of years, I've been trying really hard to just do my best. And then, now I need to get to the point where I let other people read it, so that they can tell me what they think. And then, like Jamie was saying, you take the temperature. Is that what I want? Am I okay with this? Is it okay that certain people feel this way about this character? Do I need to change this character? Or am I comfortable with there being multiple schools of thought on how this person is or how this theme came across or whatever? It's challenging to say the least.

[JAMIE] With what you were saying about intention, A.P., that's one of those things where like, it might take writers a while to get there. But that becomes like taking agency over your own writing.

[A.P.] Totally.

[KARLI] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] Because sometimes it will be very easy. And sometimes it will be very difficult to take a piece of feedback, and completely disregard it. Yeah. Because there are times where you're like, oh, this person interpreted this theme completely opposite. Does that mean I'm going to change it? No. Yeah, that's like a whole different level that you have to develop and get to that point. Sometimes it's easy, because you're like, oh, this person doesn't understand any of this, disregard it all. And then there's other times where you're like, Well, I really trust this person's opinion. But I still am making the choice as the author of this piece, to make this creative choice.

[A.P.] Totally. Like when I send stuff out for feedback, I know who I'm sending it to. So I know sort of kind of like their headspace their background and stuff like that. So. So like that piece that I sent out, The Jungle Cruise as I call it in my head. [all laugh]

[KARLI] I love that.

[A.P.] I you know, I sent it to several people I know that have like zero experience with like Latin American literature and magical realism. And I wanted to see, you know, what their tolerance was for that kind of stuff. Because I'm, you know, I'm trying to publish that in a western centric market. So I was mostly okay with them being confused. [Jamie and Karli laugh] You know? I'm like, Yes. Excellent, perfect.

[KARLI] What I wanted muahahaha. [A.P. chuckles]

[A.P.] So, yeah, like context of who's reading it context within yourself and then the intent as the as the author to, you know, choose the right words.

[JAMIE] That's, it's interesting to think that because we're talking about death of the author, but death of the author does not exist in critique feedback.

[KARLI] No.

[JAMIE] It is very important to take into account who wrote it down and their background.

[KARLI] Yes. Absolutely.

[A.P.] Totally. Yeah.

[JAMIE] All right. Unless anybody else has anything vital to say... [chuckling]

[A.P.] Check your lint traps in your dryer. [Karli laughs] Make sure to empty those after every use.

[JAMIE] Is that your Two-cent Recommendation?

[A.P.] No, that's that's a freebie.

[KARLI] [laughs] Bonus.

[A.P.] What is my Two Cent one? Wash your dishwasher. Like run the clean cycle in your dishwasher.

[JAMIE] Isn't your dishwasher self cleaning?

[A.P.] No, no, no. You have to run when it's empty with like vinegar, you know, like clean out the filter, stuff like that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, that's true.

[A.P.] Real important things. [laughing]

[KARLI] Wow.

[JAMIE] Thanks for joining us. You can find A.P. on social media @apthayer and his website is apthayer.com. Pick up his most recent publication, "Why The Grey Bird Sings" in the April issue of Dark Recesses Press. And thank you for joining us A.P.

[KARLI] Yes.

[A.P.] Thank you for having me. Always, always a pleasure.

[KARLI] We're always happy to have you.

[JAMIE] Thanks for listening. Follow and leave us a review. Find us on social media @theactbreak_podcast or @theactbreak_. Head over to our website, scifiohmy.com/podcast to find transcripts for all of this seasons episodes and sign up for our newsletter. I think thats... [laughs]

[KARLI] We did it! Yay!

[JAMIE] Talk to you later.

[A.P.] Bye.

[KARLI] Bye.

Movies Vs TV - Transcript

[KARLI] [singing] Running on cough drops and coffee.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] It's a winning combination.

[KARLI] It's really not; it's actually kind of disgusting.

[JAMIE] I bet it is. [laughs]

[KARLI] Pretty sure I have allergies. It's a whole situation that I don't know what to do with.

[JAMIE] Do you take an allergy medication?

[KARLI] I just started this morning because I realized that the quote unquote cold wasn't going away. But I really had no symptoms other than like allergy symptoms. So it was like, I know I did have a cold at one point. But I just, it's—

[JAMIE] You've had a cold before in your life?

[KARLI] [laughing] At one point in my life. I have had a cold. No, I mean, like at the beginning of this whole convoluted mess that has become my—

[JAMIE] [laughing] Life? Existence?

[KARLI] My entire existence.

[JAMIE] So if you fall asleep halfway through the podcast, it's because of this.

[KARLI] I will—I second guessed taking it before this. I was like, should I wait? We'll find out.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI]  Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] I am excited for this chat with you this morning.

[JAMIE] Hold on. Don't be excited yet. [Karli sighs exasperatedly] Be serious. Welcome back to The Act Break podcast, here with you today. My name is Jamie Redact; I'm an author of sorts.

[KARLI] I am Karli, I am not here with you today present in any way shape or form. But you will hear my voice regardless. Hopefully the thoughts are coherent.

[JAMIE] Does that mean you're like a ghost? If you're not here at all in any way, shape or form... It's—so it's just me pretending to be Karli.

[KARLI] Yeah, basically.

[JAMIE] [laughing] Both roles.

[KARLI] Both roles.

[JAMIE] Karli's been recast.

[KARLI] I feel you're doing a pretty good job so far sounding authentically like me. I'm Karli. Howdy, howdy, howdy.

[JAMIE] Now you can be excited [laughing] about today.

[KARLI] [Jamie and Karli laughing] I'm so excited about today.

[JAMIE] You officially have permission to be excited. [laughing]

[KARLI] Wow. Thanks, Jamie. What are we talking about today?

[JAMIE] What are we talking about today?

[KARLI] Do you want to introduce our topic? Or do we do we want to just pretend like nobody's here. [Jamie laughs] Nobody's here today. It's just you and me having a chat with mics on and head sets.

[JAMIE] All right before we forget about the rest of the world. Insert spoiler alerts here.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] We actually did pretty good. Everything is just mild spoilers, where we don't actually spoil what happened. We just mention that we were maybe displeased. The works mentioned include Game of Thrones, Ozark, Supernatural, and I think that's all. Movies versus television. I say television, and that includes streaming. Pretty much shows, episodic stories.

[KARLI] There you go. I like, I like that description. Because yeah, it's not. It's not the same as it used to be, as us old folks [chuckling] remember.

[JAMIE] 'Cause times, they are a changin’. [silly old person voice] I just remember gathered around the old radio listening to the story of the week. [Jamie chuckles]

[KARLI] I remember having a television with static on it that had a black and white setting. So we'll just say that.

[JAMIE] What was it called? The radio show? Mr. Whittaker? [Karli laughs] You know what I'm talking about. What was that show called?

[KARLI] Odyssey.

[JAMIE] Yes. [laughs]

[KARLI] Adventures of Odyssey. Adventures in Odyssey? Adventures in Odyssey. Yeah.

[JAMIE] That's correct.

[KARLI] Mr. Whittaker! [both laugh]

[JAMIE] I just wanted to take you back on a journey.

[KARLI] You really did. I was teleported through time. That's time travel folks.

[JAMIE] The beauty of what is now radio is this. We do whatever we want now. This is another one of those episodes where I—we coined it versus but we're not actually putting them up against each other. There are pros and cons to each, television versus movies.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] I'm sure you reached your own conclusion as well on there is a winner. But is there a winner?

[KARLI] There is no winner for me.

[JAMIE] It's difficult. I felt like maybe there was a winner just because of the very specific reason that this whole episode came to mind.  Yeah.  I don't know if I want to say it now or if I want to wait till later.

[KARLI] Save it. But I but I think I know I think I know what your winner is going to be. So I'll be curious to know if I'm right or not. Don't worry. I'll let you know if I was right or not. I really like being right.

[JAMIE] Yeah. So the most important thing is not so much being right, as making sure everybody knows you were right. [laughs]

[KARLI] I think it's both.

[JAMIE] No, because then when you're not right, you just act like you didn't think about it at all. You know what I mean? [Karli laughs] That's how it works.

[KARLI] Ummm okay, you you could be right on that one. [Jamie laughs] However, I do very much enjoy being right.

[JAMIE] Well, obviously, who doesn't? But would being right be as satisfying if other people didn't know you were right?

[KARLI] It is incredibly satisfying to let people know that I was right.

[JAMIE] That's really the cherry on top.

[KARLI] It really is.

[JAMIE] [laughing] I know. Okay, grandpa, let's move on. I just okay, grandpa'd myself. [Karli laughs] So let's talk about the difference between TV and movies, like the big stark differences.

[KARLI] Obviously, there are production differences. But I think in this conversation, we're leaning a little bit more towards... maybe not nebulous, but like, philosophical standpoint of what we really feel about how it comes out.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I mean, whatever we want to throw against the wall.

[KARLI] Okay, see what sticks. So what I came down to... initial takeaway, when I started thinking about the different forms; I'm sure you can get way more technical than I can, there are some things that I do know, but like, you really, you really know about all this stuff. You can niche down on it. Ultimately, I compared—to kind of help me process this—TV shows or like book series. And movies are like short fiction, in their ability to do certain things.

[JAMIE] Question.

[KARLI] Answer.

[JAMIE] Would you say that they are like short fiction or standalone?

[KARLI] Short fiction.

[JAMIE] Why short fiction, in particular?

[KARLI] Because movies have more space and the ability to be more experimental, and to subvert expectation within their framework, than TV shows. TV shows, when they start, they establish themselves as a certain thing. And while there can be some subversion and stuff like that, with different things that happen within it. Usually the mind bendy, like totally changing things up, will lose them viewers. And so it's not going to happen as often, whereas movies, its shorter commitment. And so I don't know how to, like really explain it. But I also feel like it's, it's a more condensed, it's more condensed and more powerful. It has less space to convey what it's trying to convey. And so they are there's, it's really impactful with its images and sounds and words, and when it's done well. So I feel like that made me think of short fiction, more than anything else, personally.

[JAMIE] Okay... Because to me, short fiction would be like, a scene from a movie.

[KARLI] Right. And in a lot of ways, you're right in when it comes to story structure. Absolutely. You're right. I'm more from the concept of it, leaving you with a feeling more than anything else.

[JAMIE] Okay. I agree that on average, you can do more stranger things narratively and stylistically, with a movie than you can a television series.

[KARLI] And I think you can do that more with short fiction than you can with a standalone novel.

[JAMIE] I disagree.

[KARLI] Not always that not always.

[JAMIE] I'm just saying, in my opinion, I disagree with that.

[KARLI] That's fair.

[JAMIE] So you can do the weird stylistic thing in movies more than television shows. There are television shows that do that.

[KARLI] Right, which is there's always an exception.

[JAMIE] As per example, like Community, Supernatural, Wandavision, like there are some shows out there that do break molds, but I agree on the whole, you can get away with a lot more in a movie.

[KARLI] I think, like what you're saying about the story structurally, absolutely. Like, there isn't always a beginning, a middle, and an end to short fiction. It's more like you said a scene of something. So in some ways, my analogy works, and then it starts to break down. As per usual.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] But that's okay.

[KARLI] I'm just saying, emotionally, what it evokes for me made me think of that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, so some of the advantages, because I'm like, I want to try and make slight argument for both. And television. If a series has been picked up, you're going to get nowadays, eight plus episodes. Back in the day, it was up to like, usually thirteen episodes the first season and up to twenty-three episodes as the seasons get picked up. Unless it's in jeopardy of getting canceled. Basically, just shy of twenty-six hours of content because commercials because TV was also designed to make money. [both chuckle] That's a big part of it. So you have to more time to let the story unfold. You have more time to get to know your characters. Character development of those two things can be a pro and a con.

[KARLI] Yep.

[JAMIE] Depending on how they're handled.

[KARLI] Yeah, that was definitely something that stood out to me the character investment. And also fan reaction to character and story investment and how that relationship works. Because with movies, while you can have very impactful characters that you care about a lot, the movie—it's out it's an after the fact acknowledgement and reaction of those characters. Whereas while the show is running, the internet, now, there is a it's...

[JAMIE] It's an ongoing developing relationship. [chuckles]

[KARLI] It's an ongoing developing relationship. Yes.

[JAMIE] Yeah, because the investment is so much higher. Because when you go to a bad movie, you've only wasted two hours of your time.  And like a hundred dollars. [laughs] Sorry. What kind of movie theater are you going to? [both chuckle] I mean, it's still expensive to go to movies compared to what it was when we were younger. But I'm like, it should only be like 20 bucks to go see a movie. [laughs]

[KARLI] For—okay, one person. I'm just thinking when I go to the movies, I've got my whole family. So it's like a hundred bucks.

[JAMIE] [laughing] Well that's a personal choice. If you want to spend time with your family, [Karli laughs] I guess that's what you do.

[KARLI] Jamie's like, "I want to be alone."

[JAMIE] Bye!

[KARLI] "Dont' talk talk to me, bye."

[JAMIE] But when you end, a show that has a bad ending, that usually years of your life, you've invested into it. Even a short but successful show would be considered five to seven seasons. That's a long time to be invested in the show.

[KARLI] Pretty long investment.

[JAMIE] I'm interested as, as things have been changing with streaming, how long things are running. And let's keep in mind that we're talking about U.S. television.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Because the way like the BBC does, it is completely different than the way we do it over here. Which leads us into the story structure problem.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I mean, I guess it's not necessarily a problem. But it obviously is for some people.

[KARLI] [laughing] It can be.

[JAMIE] [exasperated noise] Ugh.

[KARLI] Yeah. Because movies no matter what structure they use, but most American filmmakers use the three act structure. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end. And with shows, there's a beginning and we get introduced to these characters, but then like season upon season of act two, and then and then the endings tend to be very unsatisfying, because it's a disproportionate amount of ending to the second act. Not always, not always. But I find I tend to be very dissatisfied with TV show endings as a whole. Because they don't spend enough time bringing everything through to a satisfying close, they end it too quickly for the amount of time that we spent with these characters.

[JAMIE] I, I agree and disagree on a couple of points there.

[KARLI] Ooo, tell me.

[JAMIE] Because I don't think the problem lies in the amount of time spent, okay, if the ending is the right ending for the show. But I do agree that very often, in the shows that we're probably thinking of, they wrap things up too quickly. And when they should've started setting up or going into Act Three, three plus more episodes than they actually did.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] That's one of those squishy things where it's like eh, it's a case by case basis. Because it makes sense to me that you would maybe only spend the last three episodes in Act Three, because it's the end of a series, but it depends on if you've done the work [Karli chuckles] to write, the correct ending. And I'm saying that—that's obviously, my opinion is that there is correct endings and there are [chuckling] incorrect endings. And a lot of that is why I thought of this episode. Because if I have to watch one more fantastic series end with a crappy, good-for-nothing ending, I am going to make a whole [laughing] podcast about it. [both laughing]

[KARLI] Oh, great.

[JAMIE] Oh, just like today.

[KARLI] Yeah, completely agree with you. What it comes down to, which I know that you could probably speak a little bit more about this than me, is that a lot of times shows don't know how long they're going to get.

[JAMIE] Yep.

[KARLI] And so granted, they want to go as long as possible because they're making this for money. They spend a little bit more time focused on making the show last as long as possible than they do on story structure and telling a good story. But then at the same time, then they're like ooo, we're coming to a close. They don't spend enough time combing back through the work that they did to try to bring everything to a full and proper close. They're just like, oh crap, we're ending. This is the, this is the most logical ending for the most recent events. And you're like, but what about this stuff back here? And like, what about that? Those of us who have spent years and probably multiple watches through, feel like we know [laughing] more than the writers do.

[JAMIE] So yeah, let's, let's talk about the industry. Just like a, get that rundown for how it works. Because a movie, you have a script, and it is a complete narrative tale, you know where you're going. And that's one of the places where I cut television writers a break, because there's a lot of factors. One is that they don't know how long they're going to run. It's really, really common to not know if you're gonna get another season. What you want to do in those scenarios is usually write a season finale that leaves it open for another season. If the people in charge really want to goad executives in fans into really wanting another season, they will write cliffhangers. And they will leave it open ended so that the story has somewhere to go past that.

[KARLI] But then what happens sometimes is they write those cliffhangers... and they still don't get a second season.

[JAMIE] Oh, yeah, exactly. And that's really common.

[KARLI] Then us fans are screwed. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] And that happens all the time. Because they want to run for so long, there's a lot more input from executives, fan interactions, number—like week by week numbers—like you make a movie, you go to the box office, you earn your money back. Or you don't and it's over with a television show. It's like on the weekly looking at the Nielsen ratings, looking at the numbers, looking at how many people are viewing this. And then, depending on that amount, then executives get involved. [both chuckle] And they tell show runners, this is what we want, make it happen. So there is executive problems with any movie or show. But especially with television, it's there to make money. And the more people who watch it, the more money it makes. Relating that all back to writing structure. Just like for a movie, there's one script, one story. There's one director. There's one person in charge of the creative vision. Basically. With television, different people write each episode, different people direct each episode. There's so many fingers in the pie [chuckling] of what's going on.

[KARLI] Or you don't. [chuckles] Sometimes too many cooks spoil the broth. Sometimes it's beautiful soup, but sometimes...

[JAMIE] Yeah, on average, many of the people writing episodes for television shows have no idea how it would end. Sometimes the show runners don't know how it would end.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Recently, we've gotten more with with streaming, we get more completed series. There are definitely exceptions. As an example, the first five seasons of Supernatural, Eric Kripke was the showrunner and developer/creator. And he had a very specific narrative arc. And after that arc, he left because that was his story.

[KARLI] And that's all he wanted to tell, yeah.

[JAMIE] I very much appreciate that about him is that he was like, this is the story I had. And I am done at this point.

[KARLI] Yeah. This is something that the mechanic rants about constantly. And I agree with him for the most part, I'm more willing to watch shows that are being dragged out. But he is very much, you have a story to tell. You tell that story. And then you're done. Stop trying to make more money, and make characters do things that make no sense giving us pointless episodes for no reason, just because you're trying to make money because then you've completely lost him. And he wants that satisfying conclusion. And more often, those sorts of shows where somebody sets out to tell a story, they tell their story, and they're done, tend to have a more satisfying conclusion because they've thought it out prior.

[JAMIE] That's where British television has it all, over American television because they run in series. They don't have a bunch of television shows that have run for years and years and years. Doctor Who aside.

[KARLI] But that's a whole different kind of like narrative style that it totally works for that. So that's fine.

[JAMIE] Yeah, usually a show gets made and it's done. It's one series, maybe two. Sherlock. They had three seasons, which was kind of a surprise. And so that's why I'm always like, I want to cut TV writers a break. They only are in charge of this one episode. They probably do not have the full scope of what's happening. It's when we get down to the end of a series where I look at the showrunner and I go "What did you do? Why? Why did you do this? Who put you in charge here?"

[KARLI]  Why did you ruin Supernatural?

[JAMIE] Why did you ruin Supernatural? Why did you ruin Ozark? Why did you ruin Game of Thrones?

[KARLI] Yeah, oh yeah.

[JAMIE] [chuckling] Why did you ruin, so, so many shows? And I can boil all of these horrible endings down to one problem. And that is characterization.

[KARLI] Oooo.

[JAMIE] In every single one of these, I feel that what happens at the end being quote unquote, bad, is a direct correlation to bad characterization of the characters we have spent years getting to know. They act out of character, or they do not complete the arc of the character that we've been building for years.

[KARLI] Yes, they make something happen that is convenient for the ending that they have chosen and not adjusting based on the character that has evolved over the years. Yes, mic drop.

[JAMIE] Like just a few weeks ago, we finished Ozark. And I was just so—and that's where I got really—I get really angry about Ozark in particular, because I believe it's four seasons. And they knew, it's when a show knows that it's ending. I will give a full reprieve to any show that was canceled.

[KARLI] Oh, absolutely. They have a free pass.

[JAMIE] Free pass, I get it.

[KARLI] I'm mad. But it's not your fault. [Jamie chuckles]

[JAMIE] Exactly. But when a show knows it's ending, and it still leaves you dissatisfied.

[KARLI] Doesn't deliver.

[JAMIE] That is there's something—somebody didn't do their job. [laughs]

[KARLI] You had one job. I agree, it is all about the characterization. If a character begins to act completely out of their norm, in order to make something happen that's convenient for the show ending. You're going to piss off your fans, you're just going to. If you can't find a way to make your ending work with your character, you need to change your ending.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Like you can't just—I mean, you can, but you shouldn't—just change your character all of a sudden, in order to make this one ending stick. With shows, I mean, they're out they're out in the world, you cannot go back to the beginning, and edit and get the ending that you want. The character has evolved. One of the reasons this happens. A showrunner has potentially maybe in my mind, a general idea of the ending that they might want to work towards. But the problem is, is that this is an interactive experience, not just between, like the fan reaction, but the actor and the actor's interpretation of the character, sometimes takes the character in a direction. And then they're all interacting with each other, so on and so forth, it evolves. And then all of a sudden, you get to the end, and that ending no longer fits for that character. And the showrunner insists for the show to end that way, when they needed to reevaluate.

[JAMIE] It's hard 'cause what you're saying might potentially be the case. But on the whole, a lot of shows have multiple show runners throughout. Supernatural had five. And so the executives are in charge of who's the showrunner.

[KARLI] Yeah, it changes hands.

[JAMIE] And they can they can be replaced when they're not happy. So it's, it's such a bummer. Unless you've sold your show as like, this is the whole...

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Then it is more wobbly [Karli chuckles] like out of control. As far as choosing something out of character to end the show—like as a study of this—that makes me think of Game of Thrones, and Supernatural. If you want to have an ending that requires your main characters to act against what we've seen them develop or build, the proportion of their dissent needs to be equal to the amount of dissent.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] So if Khaleesi is going to...

[KARLI] Go crazy.

[JAMIE] She's gonna lose her mind. She's gonna do the opposite of what she's been preaching about doing the entire time we've known her, they give her a trauma. That's like the first thing that you would think. If you need to shift the characterization of somebody, they have to go through a trauma, they have to go through a trial. I get that. But it has to be enough of an event plus other things on top of that for long enough for me to buy it.

[KARLI] I completely agree with the amount of time spent. It's not the fact that she did that. It's the fact that they didn't give us enough time to showcase that effectively. And it made it look—

[JAMIE] Abrupt.

[KARLI] It was, it was way too abrupt, which is my whole argument with the ending of shows. Is they are almost always too abrupt. They come to a conclusion, and then they're like, bam, bam, bam, done. And you're like, wait a second. What?

[JAMIE] If you're going to make your character... If you're going to change your characters in the very last episode or the very last scene—Ozark!—it doesn't make sense.

[KARLI] Going back to the, spending so long and act two. I totally get that you can't spend an entire season in Act Three, I get that. Like, that's, that's a lot. However, okay, wait, wait, wait.

[JAMIE] If you know, it's your last season, the whole last season—

[KARLI] Should be.

[JAMIE] All be Act Three.

[KARLI] I guess that's what I'm trying to say is that, like, if you're aware that your show is ending the entire last season should be Act Three. And the climax should not be like the climax of the entire season should not be happening at three quarters of the way through the final episode.

[JAMIE] [laughing] Exactly.

[KARLI] How dare you.

[JAMIE] Right?

[KARLI] Like, don't do that to us. Like, we have to have the denouement. Like you have to give us the final image, you have to give us the after picture. You cannot take us to this cliff, kick us off of it, and then expect us to be totally fine with the ending. When we get five minutes after, at the end of like, then this is this is how they are now.

[JAMIE] I probably, if I could choose, I feel like the climax of an entire series should hit just, just about the end of the penultimate episode.

[KARLI] Yes, my opinion as well.

[JAMIE] And then you get that the last episode is the the final moments of the climax. And then the resolution.

[KARLI] Yep.

[JAMIE] Especially if your show's run for like, seven plus years. Come on, come on, give us—give the people what they want. You're leaving anyway. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, and I don't want to I don't want to go on a whole tirade about capitalism. [Jamie laughs] But our need to monetize art is just [exasperated noise] ruins art.

[JAMIE] Especially television.

[KARLI] Especially television. I am—so I'm just going to mmm, and then—What I think a lot of executives don't understand is they don't understand story. What is required for us as people in what we want and need in a resolution of a story to make it satisfying. They think that if it's not all flashbang, in the final episode, nobody will watch it. That's B.S., if we've spent years with these characters, and we love them, and we're there for the end, we're going to watch it, we want to know what's happening. We want it, [dramatic whipser] give it to us.

[JAMIE] There's a thing called market research, [Karli chuckles] and like focus groups, there's an episode of Community where they pick people to be in these focus groups, and they grab Pierce and Shirley. Pierce, like in that whole scene, is like the epitome of what I imagine executives or you know, the people they've hired. They find the eighteen to forty, white men. And they say what do you want? And then they give it to him. [laughs]

[KARLI] Ohhh, oh it's not funny. But it's funny.

[JAMIE] I feel like that, that that's the that's the gist of why movies are—I mean, you can still have a bad movie—but on the whole I can think of dozens of good endings to movies. And good endings to shows are very rare.

[KARLI] So rare.

[JAMIE] Ultimately, there are pros and cons to both. I like the satisfaction that one complete movie can give me. But when it comes to watching things, I watch more TV.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Because I want to spend more time with those characters.

[KARLI] Yep.

[JAMIE] It's also a whole thing with anxiety and stress and being burnt out where you want to return to the same characters you know.

[KARLI] It's a comfort thing.

[JAMIE] Exactly. Even shows that have horrible endings.

[KARLI] I don't think in my mind that there is a winner because... I don't feel like it's a fair comparison, because they are two different forms. But I am glad that we had the discussion about them.

[JAMIE] And we mostly were focused on story structure of it.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Television has a lot of wiggle room. Yeah. Which is nice. Grey's Anatomy. Like they have the opportunities to completely change out their whole cast.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Community... So few people were paying attention to it. They were able to do so many, like nebulous things.

[KARLI] That is true.

[JAMIE] So you know, both mediums have merit.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] I 100% give a reprieve to television writers who have to write things while they have no idea what's happening, but zero reprieve to any show runner who's in charge of ending a show and poops their pants. [Karli laughs] I'm not saying I could do it. I'm just saying I'm unhappy. [laughs]

[KARLI] On that note, I know that it'll make the recommendation section really long, but based on both of our passionate level of like commitment to this topic, I believe that we both deserve recommendations.

[JAMIE] We deserve—we earned this.

[KARLI] We've earned the right to do whatever [Jamie laughs] we want on the podcast that we created.

[JAMIE] There's no arguing with that.

[KARLI] [laughing] Let's do our recommendations for the week.

[JAMIE] Let's!

[KARLI] Based on my interpretation of what a movie is—

[JAMIE] [laughing] Of what a movie is?

[KARLI] Of what a movie is. An emotional encapsulation of a feeling or an idea and it leaves you with this very powerful image. I am recommending Pan's Labyrinth. it is dark and gritty. But it is one of the most powerful movies that I've seen and I love it.

[JAMIE] My recommendation is going to be a television series that was cancelled but they knew in advance that they were not getting the next season. If you want to watch a fantastic show with a fantastic ending, watch Travelers on Netflix. Which I maybe have plugged before but I don't care. [laughs] Yeah, it's, it's wonderful. Yeah, it was like one of those things where when it ended like I had the opposite feeling as when I watched the end of Ozark. [both laugh]

[KARLI] I can tell you're, you're really salty about Ozark. It's a fresh, it's a fresh wound. [laughs]

[JAMIE] It's a very slightly veiled rage. I guess this is the part where I'm gonna break the fourth wall here and act like we're not just talking to each other because we haven't been doing that at all. [Karli chuckles] All right, thanks for listening everybody. Please follow or subscribe to The Act Break on your podcast consumption method of choice. You can find the links to all of our social media and our website in the liner notes on the description of the episode. And transcripts will be available on our website. I think that's all. [laughs]

[KARLI] We did it!

[JAMIE] Somebody, somebody give that woman a cookie!

[KARLI] We figured out how to shorten—I figured out how to shorten our call of action. I deserve a pat on the back.

[JAMIE] It only took us half a season! We did it! Have a good week.

[KARLI] [chuckling] Bye.

CP Real Talk - Transcript

[JAMIE] I'm really excited about today because today we get guests who have a similar relationship that we have. They are critique partners, but they seem from the outside to be a perkier, less dead inside version of us. [laughs]

[KARLI] [laughing] They do, they do.

[JAMIE] So I really can't wait to take in that energy and hear more about their dynamic because... it just feels so life giving.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Not that we don't give each other [laughing] energy and life. It's just a different sort.

[KARLI] Yeah, I feel like they have a more hopeful and optimistic—it's like a shimmery sheen that they have to them.

[JAMIE] Just this positive energy.

[KARLI] Mhmm. Ours is a little more murky.

[JAMIE] 'Cause there's a lot of different types of creative energy, positive, creative energy, destructive creative energy. [both laugh] I'm not saying I know what ours is. I just don't necessarily think it's like bright and shiny. [laughing]

[KARLI] That is the fairest assessment I've ever heard.

[JAMIE] To an outside element, t might even seem hostile. [laughing]

[KARLI] It's a hostile work environment y'all.

[JAMIE] I mean, you know. [both chuckle] Yeah, bringing all that hostile energy.

[KARLI] That's right.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to the ACT break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Welcome back to The Act Break, the podcast that fills your ears with potentially useful nonsense. I'm Jamie. And...

[KARLI] I’m Karli.

[JAMIE] Today we have a double dose of guests. Two women that have also been each other's critique partners for years, Kim Chance and Megan Lacroix. Some listeners might know Kim from being in past episodes. She's been very kind in joining us multiple times. But for anyone that this is their first time listening, Kim Chance is a young adult contemporary and fantasy author and freelance editor. And for the first time ever, we are happy to welcome writer well-versed author interviewer and previous Pitch Wars mentor, Megan Lacroix. Welcome ladies.

[KIM] Thank you. Happy to be here.

[MEGAN] Thank you.

[JAMIE] And if any of that was incorrect, just let me know [laughing] and I'll change it.

[KIM] That was really official sounding, Jamie, I liked it.

[JAMIE] I try. I try real hard. Obviously, I took like four takes of everything [Kim and Karli chuckle] but but the important part is that the information I'm giving about you is correct.

[MEGAN] It's called revision. [all chuckle]

[JAMIE] I don't put anything out there into the world without first editing it, and that includes everything out of my mouth. [all chuckling] Hey guys.

[KARLI] Welcome, yay.

[KIM] Hi!

[JAMIE] It's so fantastic to have another set of critique partners with us. Because that's pretty much I feel like the main thing people know is that me and Karli, are critique partners. Thank you so much for being here, because it'd be nice to get somebody else's take on this type of relationship. So how did you meet? How do you know each other?

[KIM] Take it away, Megan.

[MEGAN] All right, here we go. So we were doing the math recently. And I think we're going on six years. So it feels much longer than that.

[KIM] Feels like forever. [chuckles]

[MEGAN] I know I like I now measure my life and like, pre-Kim, post-Kim... not post, but you know.

[KIM] I was like, wait a minute, post-Kim?

[KARLI] Woah woah woah.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Post Kim's introduction.

[MEGAN] Yeah, so it was about six years ago, or going on six years, we had both entered into a contest called Pitch Wars, which is now no longer a thing.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[MEGAN] But back in the day was quite the thing. We kind of like got to talking a little bit in the hashtag threads. Nothing serious. I think we'd emailed back and forth a few times because I had watched Kim's YouTube channel and so I was like, super excited for her when she got her agent and everything like that. I think that was a little after the contest.

[KIM] Shortly after. Yeah.

[MEGAN] Yeah, it was very, very casual. Like it was like enough that I was like, oh, I like her. Like I think she's a cool person. But I wasn't like chasing her down or anything. And then I got chosen to participate in the contest. And it didn't quite work out for me just because I had a lot of life stuff happening at the same time. So I kind of had to back away from finishing it. This would have happened in the summer. So like around the time, Christmas time, I reached out because at that point, I was like I just want to form like some serious critique partner relationships. I had had more like beta reader type relationships prior but nothing that was like a solid go to person. And so I dm-ed Kim and I was like listen, like—I think it gave you a basic pitch of my book.

[KIM] You did.

[MEGAN] Because we are both writing about witches at the time.

[KIM] Yep. Yep.

[MEGAN] And I was like, I think we might actually be In a good match. Would you be open to trading? I think we did a chapter maybe twenty pages.

[KIM] It wasn't a lot. Yeah, it was just a little chunk.

[MEGAN] It was small. And I was like, if you're open to it, we could critique each other's work, see if we jive with each other style, or even the writing, because, you know, I want someone who is interested to read more. And I'm not, I don't want to say 100%, but I'm, I'm not really offended if someone's like, yeah, it's not really my cup of tea. Like, you're just not my reader, you know. So I have—

[KIM] It's subjective.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[MEGAN] And I was just like, well, if we get along with this, maybe we can keep going. And so we both critiqued and sent pages back. And I think we were both like, I want to keep reading more. Kim was in a different stage than I was. But I really responded—

[KIM] Our styles were, yeah, our styles were were very different. But there was still enough...

[MEGAN] A common thread.

[KIM] We had in common. Yeah, that we really kind of connected with.

[KARLI] Nice.

[MEGAN] We both had our niches in terms of like, the things we looked for, like Kim is really good at like, emotion, I am not. [laughter] And I feel like I am good at things that were complimenting her work, too. We were able to kind of stretch our writer brains on each other's work, and then really obviously took off after that.

[KIM] The rest, they say is history. [laughter]

[MEGAN] Then we became codependent. [laughter] We basically live off each other.

[KIM] We're symbiotic at this point. [laughter]

[MEGAN] It's a symbiotic relationship, we cannot survive without the other. At first, it was a work friendship, like, you know, you're at work and you've got like your work buddies. And you're like, yeah, you're cool. We talk about work. And that's it. And then it slowly turned into like, oh, all of a sudden, I'm going to brunch with this person and they know my kids.

[KIM] I do.

[JAMIE] To start though, it seems like that was a very intentional relationship that you guys kind of went into building you like—

[MEGAN] Oh i wooed her I wooed her. [laughter]

[JAMIE] There was intent.

[MEGAN] I think there's a spark and she was like, I'm not sure, but then she fell under my spell.

[KARLI] I love it. It's like, their eyes connected over Twitter hashtags.

[KIM] It's like dating!

[MEGAN] It's so much like dating.

[KIM] Mhmm.

[MEGAN] So much like dating.

[JAMIE] Sometimes you're gonna have to go after this relationship with that intention. Knowing that you might jive. You might not jive. I'm so glad you guys found each other. And have become one. [laughter]

[MEGAN] Might have to kiss a few frogs.

[KIM] Yeah.

[MEGAN] Before you find your prince or princess charming. Yes.

[KIM] Oh, I'm your Prince Charming? That makes my day! [laughter]

[MEGAN] You are. I know. You know it, you know it.

[KIM] I know. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] So six years? That's a good, nice, long time.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Do you have multiple critique partners? Or pretty much are you two it and everybody else falls under alpha reader, beta reader-ish?

[KIM] We have another critique partner that we both work with. And then I also I think we both have kind of our set of like alpha readers that we read. But I think me and Megan's critique partner relationship at this point has morphed into something that is beyond just being critique partners. And so I think because of that our critique partner relationship, so to speak, isn't as the norm—isn't as normal—as they normally are I guess, because we are very, very close. Like we have obviously—it started off just like she said—kind of a working partnership to people with a common goal and a shared passion. And now, like, we are best friends, we talk every day like I would literally will my children to her if I had to, you know, like, it's beyond that. And so, the relationship I have with my other critique partner with my beta readers is completely different than the one I have with Megan because it's just, it's a whole different level [laughing] is what I'm saying.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I don't feel like that's a normal critique partner relationship. It just so happens that me and Karli's critique partner relationship is also like that. Like, next level, text every day, at least to be like, are you, are you alive over there?

[MEGAN] Uh, we have passwords to each other’s—

[KIM] Social media accounts.

[MEGAN] Accounts. I would lock her out when she would tell me to.

[JAMIE] I'm just saying, I'm not on my own HBO Max account. [laughter]

[MEGAN] Neither am I.

[JAMIE] And they're gonna shut us down now.

[KARLI] Because Netflix is listening.

[JAMIE] The Singularity is always listening.

[KIM] [ad reading voice] This episode is sponsored by HBO Max. [laughter]

[JAMIE] So me and Karli have been trying to exchange work a little more often than we have in the past. And I was wondering how often would you say that you guys exchange work, and what does it look like? Are you guys sending works in progress snippets, like, what is that like? [chuckles]

[KIM] In the beginning, it was a lot more organized and structured than it is now. We, I think when we first started, we said okay, we're gonna do a chapter a week, and we really tried to stick to that, to that goal. And we also discussed like, what sort of feedback we were looking for, at that particular stage in the process. I think at that process, we were both drafting. And so we were looking for that more hard in depth, truthful, honest, brutal honesty, critique, because we were both really interested in making our drafts the best they could be at that time. It has evolved. [chuckles] Now, Megan, do you want to tell them what it looks like now?

[MEGAN] Yeah, no, it's like, it's like, W.I.P. confetti. We're always in the same place, workwise. Like, Kim may be starting something. I'm in Act Three, or she's revising. And I'm trying to figure out, you know, the ending of my story or whatever. We're not usually like working side by side in terms of the plot, like how the plot structure...

[KIM] And the process.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[MEGAN] But we do all kinds of stuff. We do send each other things as we finish, like if we finished a chapter or something like that. Oh, God, I mean, we send each other stuff directly to each other's Kindles. I don't even email it to her, I just email it to her Kindle converted. And I'm like, it's on your Kindle. [Kim chuckles] We will screenshot things on the Scrivener app and just screenshot it and be like, this is the one paragraph I managed today. Tell me I'm wonderful.

[KARLI] So is it like a daily thing?

[MEGAN] Not daily, but we talk like 47 times a day. So we're always talking about—

[KIM] About our stories. Like—

[MEGAN] What's vexing us. Yeah.

[JAMIE] Is that exchange have a lot to do with accountability of it? Or are you guys constantly like, hey, can you tell me how this reads or this vibe? Like how much of that exchange is getting feedback on it? And how much is just being like, I did it?

[KIM] Well, it's both depending again, on what we, what we need. But I think in terms of critique, it's more constant than it was. And it's just, it's a less formal way of doing it. And Megan has become so instrumental in my writing process as a whole. That the way I structure books now is, you know, obviously, I get an idea, and I do my full outline. You know, before I write any word, will I walk through everything with Megan, before I even write a word, I'll be like, "Hey, I just had this idea in the shower. What do you think about this?" and we will sit there on the phone, and like, brainstorm and talk about it. Then when I m'oved to the outline stage, I'll write up an outline and be like, Hey, I wrote this outline, can you read it?" And she'll read it and vice versa. We are constantly, on the daily, talking about where we are at in our stories. If you're struggling, okay, where are you at? You're struggling? Let's let's talk through it. Because we know each other stories, so well, at this point in our friendship, like I know, every element of her story, she knows every element of mine. So it's a really natural, organic thing on the daily to come together and say, okay, where are we at? What do we need help with? Let's talk about it. The more formal of actually exchanging stuff, it really just kind of depends on when we get stuff done. But usually when we send things, it's a pretty, pretty quick turnaround time. And we're looking for that in depth critique, we're looking for that more formal feedback. But it's a lot of formal and informal together. And also we, sometimes we have to adjust the type of feedback that we give each other. Like a lot of times we'll just do accountability reads where—because like when I'm drafting sometimes I can't have critique because it derails me. So I'll just be like, Megan, read this so that you know what's going on in my story, so that when I have a problem later, you you can help me fix it. But I don't need critique right now. I just need you to know where I'm at so that you can help me down the road. So it just kind of depends.

[JAMIE] I love the “I don't need a critique, but I need you to have this so that you know what's going on.” Because...

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] When you're that linked critique partner, right, you need to know each other story, you need to know where that person's heads at, what they put on paper, so that when they do have questions, you have as close to the same amount of information that they have. So just like sending it to be like, don't don't say anything, just read it and know.

[KARLI] I feel like this entire conversation is just like an intervention for me. [laughter]

[JAMIE] I wasn't gonna to say it. [laughs]

[KARLI] I actually I have a question for you ladies. Are you both extroverted?

[KIM] I am definitely.

[MEGAN] I think I am.  I think so. I have moments of introvert-ness.

[KARLI] Okay.

[KIM] Same. Yeah.

[KARLI] Well, I mean, you gotta retreat and recharge for sure.

[KIM] Sure. Yeah.

[MEGAN] Right. Yeah, I don't get all my energy from being around other people. But I definitely feel like I come away.

[KARLI] Because I definitely feel like that level of being that communicative with each other, Jamie and I have spurts of that, but she's definitely introverted. And I would call myself an ambivert. We hit these lulls where we're both a little drained of just like the human interaction, we need to retreat, but we definitely have that kind of energy.

[JAMIE] It comes and goes in waves Karli's used to say sometimes I need to go unicorn. [Karli chuckles] Like nobody will hear from me for like days.  And I'm like, Oh yeah, I'm totally fine. I just am, I'm in my cocoon, like a cocoon of introvert. Where I'm trying to refill my cup. So I can go back out into the world and exist.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[MEGAN] See ours is so polar opposite from that. Kim is the only person who can call me at like, midnight or seven am. And I have, like, no heart rhythm thing happening [Jamie chuckles] when I pick up the phone, like I know, it's she's just calling me, like, it's not an emergency. It's just that you know, I just thought of this.

[KARLI] I will say we do check in with each other basically every day, but we definitely go through little waves where it'll be silent for a bit.

[JAMIE] We do it through gifs.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It's like, she sends a gif, I send a gift. That was our communication. [laughing]

[KARLI] That was our communication for the day. Everybody's alive.

[MEGAN] You have a healthy relationship. [laughter]

[KIM] I definitely, I think we have our lulls as well. Obviously, you've got kind of two things working together, because we're critique partners, but we're best friends as well. And while the two intersect quite a bit, they are two separate things.

[JAMIE AND KARLI] Yeah.

[KIM] So sometimes with the critique partner aspect of our friendship slash relationship, sometimes we're not in a headspace where we can talk about writing, or we want to talk about writing because you know, writing is a very difficult task, the publishing aspect of writing is even more difficult. And sometimes, our wells are equally empty. And we both struggle with, with mental health issues. And sometimes, like we're both just, you know, we ain't got nothing left. And I think that's where open and honest communication really comes into play. Because sometimes, Megan will just be like, you know, what, like, I'm working on stuff today, but I can't even really talk about it. I just don't want to talk about it. I'm like, okay, let me tell you this thing, my kids at breakfast instead. And like, we go from there, the, the key is just being open and just communicating, like how you're feeling cuz we definitely feel that to being a creative personality. Like, it just, it comes in waves. And there's just different energy levels. And sometimes you just, you don't have it to draw from. And so when that happens, we just say that, and it's not a thing, and we kind of move on, you know.

[JAMIE] Yeah, you gotta take off your writer hat.

[KIM] Yeah.

[JAMIE] You gotta be able to tell somebody that you're like, ah, I don't want to talk about this anymore. Like, I just needed to be human outside of this for a while. [chuckles]

[KIM] Yeah, I think trust and communication are the core of a healthy, solid working critique, partner relationship, and even more-so because we're friends, we have additional layers of that as well. So it's just knowing that the other person is in your corner, no matter what, no matter how you're feeling, and feeling comfortable enough to say, hey, I am drawing from an empty well right now; and knowing that that person is going to be like, okay.

[KARLI] It's really interesting how a lot of people that I've talked to, when they begin sharing their work with people that they find that they mesh with, it ends up bonding you as people because stories are so much a part of who we are. And so when you find somebody that can hold space for your story, and communicate with you in a way that is constructive for you, we naturally form, I think, a certain kind of bond with those people.

[KIM] Well, and it's like, we call them book babies, for a reason. Books are so personal, like, even if you're writing about, you know, zombies [Karli chuckles] or something, you know, it's still really personal, like you're something that you're creating. And anytime you take that and you hand it to another person, it does bond you I mean, it's like raising the kid with somebody, you know, you're going through the trenches together, you're going through it together, and it does create a really strong bond. And opening that side of yourself up to somebody is just, it's really cool when they're equally doing the same thing. And you're meeting in this place of like vulnerability, like there's some really cool things that happen when two people are vulnerable.

[MEGAN] It's totally like dating. [laughter]

[KIM] Yeah, exactly.

[JAMIE] Last season, we talked to A.P. about critique partners, and he mentioned, there has to be an even exchange, otherwise, one side might start to feel unbalanced in the exchange. I agree with what you're saying there, Kim, you have to open yourself up. If you just feel like you keep putting yourself out there. It's—

[KARLI] It has to be reciprocal.

[JAMIE] Yeah. And that's the intimidating part about trying to go out and find that new relationship is sometimes you have to be the first one to put yourself out there. And you have to hope that somebody is going to meet in the middle with you. And if they don't, then maybe they're not for you.

[KIM] Sure. And we recognize that we got incredibly lucky. We managed to find each other in a relatively pain free way. And so we just kind of took a chance that it would work out and and it did. That is not always how it works out. I've had several critique partner relationships that didn't work out, in fact, and it's not to say that, you know, those writers weren't great writers, because they were. It's not to say that they weren't great people because they were. But there's so much that goes into it. That sometimes it just doesn't work out and that's totally okay. And I think it's really important for people to realize that you may have to kind of go through a couple until you find someone that really clicks with you and what we really liked is the things that I was really good at Megan maybe kind of struggled with and vice versa, like our strengths and weaknesses are not the same. And so we were able to recognize that and really kind of play off of each other really well. And we saw a lot of potential for our work. Because of that other person's input. It really just, I don't know, it was a completely organic thing. We were just very lucky that it worked out like it did.

[JAMIE] You're so right, even though both of our sets of relationships are very different, it seems on the outside, you and your critique partner look a lot alike. But when you go to, to our strengths and weaknesses, as writers, they're opposite. Me and Karli had that same thing with like, she said, she's a stickler for grammar, and like, fantastic. That's exactly what I need in a critique partner. [Karli chuckles] I'm a mess. You have to have so many similar interests, similar interests in books and reading and all that. But like you said, your styles are completely different. And your methods or problems are completely different. You have to find somebody who complements you.

[KIM] And really common goals, too, for publishing too. So that helps too.

[MEGAN] Oh, definitely. And I think being able to click with the feedback. Like you can have feedback that is very on point. But if it is not given in a way that you have that little like bolt of lightning, or the light bulb going off, when Kim tells me something's not working, she's able to do it in a way where I see it through her eyes, like as the reader, and I hope vice versa.

[KIM] Definitely.

[MEGAN] How do we say this? Like, I'm very straightforward. I have a hard time Kim is like...

[KIM] In the clouds. [chuckles]

[MEGAN] Like the mama feedback, like "you're amazing," blah, blah, blah. [laughter] Just like I kind of forget to tell you things I like sometimes I'm just focused on the things that I see that need work. And so I have to think sometimes to be like, oh, yeah, it's nice to point out the positives. But like, that's just the way that—I'm much more...

[KIM] She's the Elsa and I'm the Anna.

[JAMIE] Don’t feel bad Megan, that is 100% relatable to me, because I'm like, oh, well, if I'm trying to just give you feedback to help you make this better. Here's all these things that I think are wrong. [laughing]

[MEGAN] That are wrong. Yeah, exactly.

[KIM] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And I'm like, that's helpful, right? No. Over the years, I've learned to, to temper that into a more constructive form. [chuckles]

[MEGAN] I mean, that's my natural—obviously—I don't literally even think about what I talk—what I write to Kim anymore, like...

[KIM] Nope. [chuckles]

[MEGAN] Then I'm worried when I actually go to read something for someone new. I'm like, Oh, God, how do I say this? Like, that doesn't sound like I'm a raging jerk, because I'm used to critiquing for my best friend. Like, it is a whole different level of critique. How do you say things that are like professional? You know, like [laughter] I feel like I've lost—

[JAMIE] You really got to dial it back, you know.

[MEGAN] I have gone feral. [laughter]

[KIM] Like, with somebody new, you might like see something you're like, you know, I really like the idea that you're going for, but maybe you should look at maybe possibly doing this. Instead of doing that, Megan'll be like, nope, in all capital letters. No, doesn't work. [laughter]

[JAMIE] When I work with other people, you might say something like, I'm not sure exactly what you mean, right here. And like Karli will be like, I don't know what word you're looking for. Did you forget to write half the sentence like, what's happening? [laughter] Let's cut to the point. Let's get down to it. [laughing]

[MEGAN] Yeah, I would never do that with anyone else. But with Kim, like, we talk about these stories in these characters. Not even the stories, but the characters so much that I'm like, I know what she's going for. You know, this is confusing, or not, you know, presenting it in the best light. So I'll just rearrange the sentence a little bit. Yeah.

[KARLI] We joke a lot, obviously. But there is such a, at least for me, such a great thing in knowing—I know, Jamie will tell me exactly what she thinks. So if she tells me she likes it, she likes it. Because she won't lie to me. She's too lazy to do that. [laughter] And so it's so satisfying, in a lot of ways, because it's like, I know, she's only saying these things in order to make me a better writer. But it's that whole thing of like, you have to find the people that you mesh with. It's the delivery system for sure.

[JAMIE] Yeah. The delivery system and the vibe.

[KARLI] Yes.

[MEGAN] The vibe. Yeah.

[KARLI] So it's definitely an important thing to find. Find that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, because I feel like somebody could tell me the exact same thing Karli might tell me. And I'd be like, eh.

[MEGAN] Put off by it. Yeah.

[JAMIE] Like in Father of the Bride where they're like, maybe you should take a jacket and I'm like, I don't need a jacket. [laughter] Oh, okay, I'll get a jacket. [laughter]

[MEGAN] No, I mean, it's so true, though. And I think it's just knowing too, that the other person has your back and they truly want your story to be the best it can be. Writers, I mean, I would say more so with newer writers, they're very worried... We have found in our life of being online, that a lot of newer writers are terrified of plagiarism. First of all, that's one reason why they don't reach out to people. And then the other thing is, they're really afraid that the other person is trying to tear them down. And I know there are people like that. But I would like to believe that there are few and far between; and people who are very serious about writing and publishing, are not trying to tear you down. They're not.

[KARLI] Either you guys don't mesh together, because that's always a possibility or it—this is a skill that you have to develop, you have to learn how to give feedback to people, and how to accept feedback. That is something you have to build, sometimes it comes across in a bad way, and you have to be able to be—talk about it.

[MEGAN] And you have to know your own limitations as a critique or and a reader, like if I don't read a certain genre, I don't feel confident critiquing it, to the extent that I would critique YA fantasy. Like, I can point out certain things. But I don't know what the genre norm is, or what the expectations are, if it's something that I'm not super well versed in.

[KARLI] Right.

[KIM] When you get feedback in general, it's difficult. We all know this. Just because I'm getting feedback from my best friend, and like my, like, soulmate, whatever, doesn't make it any less difficult at times; because Megan is very, very honest with me about what works and what doesn't work with my story, and vice versa. And that's not always easy. And I'm a really good hype girl. But I also, you know, like I'm pointing out difficult stuff. It's the compliments sandwich, you know, like, always try to end on a good note. But still, like, I know, there's been many times when me and Megan have had to give each other difficult feedback and just be like, hey, this is just not working, whatever. But it hurts less knowing that at the end of the day, I know that regardless of what crap I send to Megan, she still believes in me as a writer. She still thinks that there is value to my work. And she can see through whatever crap I've sent her and find the good. I don't know, there's just power in that and just know that she's going to give me honest feedback. And even if it's difficult to hear, it's coming from the very best place because she, you know, she wants the best for me and my stories. And that's, that's all that we could really ask for out of a critique partner relationship. And that's what we all strive for, is having that level of comfortability. And knowing that we're, you know, we're just trying to help each other out.

[JAMIE] It's really investing in another person. I get why young or beginning writers feel like, oh, well, this person maybe is just trying to tear me down, or I'm worried about this, it's—you got to shift your perspective of building a relationship and pouring into another person. It's not so much what I can get out of the relationship but what I can bring to the relationship.

[KIM] Yeah.

[KARLI] But finding somebody who feels the same Yeah. So that you're not getting the soul sucked out of you.

[JAMIE] What do you think is like the hardest part?

[KIM] Having the time to sit down and really invest. Because it's a lot of energy and time critiquing somebody. Well the way that we do it anyway. You know, we're going full on in depth developmental critiquing, and over here. And so sometimes finding the time to devote to giving that level of feedback, and also the energy. Again, you know, I struggle with mental health. And it's just sometimes it's really difficult to find the space to do it. And then just not being sure. And this is really for other people, not for Megan, obviously, but not being sure how other people are going to take the feedback. Because oftentimes, and I have found when I'm reading for other people, or even when I'm doing like freelance editing, people think that they want critique, but what they're really looking for is some sort of validation for their work. And so if they want validation, and I give them a hard critique, similar to what I would give Megan, the response is varied. To put it mildly. [laughter]

[JAMIE] When you're building up that relationship, like you were talking about Kim, the time investment, the energy investment, even though it's somebody else's creative work, when you are bringing that level of critique and feedback, you're turning off your story, and you're dedicating your creative energy to somebody else. And that is so valuable. And I appreciate that so much in a critique relationship, because it's like, I care so much about the story. And I don't expect anybody else to care. I mean, I hope somebody will care one day enough to buy it. But to have somebody who's willing to invest and care about something that's so squishy, like he's just a random idea I hadn't a shower. But let me call you at 11 o'clock at night and tell you about it.

[KIM] Oh it's happened. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yeah. It's so valuable.

[KARLI] Yeah, that time commitment, that energy commitment that you have, whether it's personal or writing creatively; because if you're trying to help them figure out their story and make it better, you're tapping into that part of your brain, that you then might be too tired to work on your own because you worked on theirs and then it's this whole learning—the give and and take in that and learning when you have to say, hey, okay, I need to set aside time for my own and then do yours and vice versa. And it's definitely a challenge to balance that out. But I agree, it's worth the investment. It's totally worth it. Totally worth it.

[KIM] Yeah, I think people are always looking to like, peek behind the curtain of critique partners. Like, it seems kind of like this enigma of a thing.

[MEGAN] Like a club. Yeah.

[KIM] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Especially for people who maybe haven't found a critique partner, or they've been told they need one. But they're like, I don't know.

[KIM] Yeah, and I think it just seems like this just intense kind of like, oh, well that I don't know if I could ever have that type of relationship. But at the core of a good critique partner relationship is just like getting to know somebody, establishing a foundation of trust, solid communication, like being open and honest with each other. And like, that's it. There's really no secret sauce, you know. Anybody can have this type of relationship, it just, it's about investing your time and your energy and finding someone you jive with, really is what it comes down to.

[KARLI] And it's your comfort level too. Like, you don't have to be texting each other from the bathroom kind of relationship. [Kim chuckles] I mean, you can. You can have whatever comfort level you are good with, in a scale. [chuckles] I feel like the four of us have probably more intense relationships than a lot of critique partners should probably have. It's not off the table if you want that kind of relationship. You just got to be searching for the people and communicating and trying to get to know people.

[MEGAN] Nothing grows your writing like having a critique partner.

[KIM AND KARLI] Yeah.

[MEGAN] That's the number one thing that takes it from the beginning stuff when you're doing it all by yourself. And like, you're the only lens that looks at these words. And then you give it to someone else, and you're like, holy crap, that's how a reader sees this?

[KARLI] It makes it real. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] We've all stated that we are in each other's personal lives. But for anybody who's looking for tamer, you don't have to be. You could definitely find and be critique partners and be very effective as long as there's an open communication about what you need, what the other person wants, and being able to have a back and forth about that, to a point where you're working well together. And both of you are benefiting each other. So you know, you don't always you don't have to find your your, your best friend. [laughs]

[MEGAN] Your soulmate.

[JAMIE] Necessarily.

[MEGAN] Do you wanna hook up or you want to get married? [laughter]

[JAMIE] Yeah, long distance relationship.

[MEGAN] [laughing] Yeah.

[KARLI] We equate it to dating and friendship because they think that that's the closest example that we have in our minds of like when you find somebody that you can communicate with on that level. But yeah, it doesn't have to be a personal relationship.

[MEGAN] It can be professional only.

[KARLI] Yes, absolutely.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I think, I think Kim and Megan are definitely married.

[KIM] Oh, yeah.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah, for sure.

[JAMIE] Me and Karli are long term but would nev—we would be common law but would never actually make it official. [Megan laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. I agree with that. Oh, yeah, that's perfect. Yep.

[JAMIE] Are there instances you don't necessarily have to share the details. But what's the hardest thing you've had to be like, "Heeey, there might be a giant plot hole right here and your entire story unravels and nothing makes sense anymore." I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but...

[MEGAN] Nothing's jumping to mind. I mean, I think it's more like things aren't coming across as the writer intended.

[JAMIE] Like maybe you wanted this character to be like super debonair, but he's coming off like—

[KARLI] Like a stalker.

[JAMIE] A-hole.

[KIM] Yeah, like—

[JAMIE] These are all made up scenarios, FYI listeners. [laughing] I'm not I'm not actually talking about any of Karli's stuff, just so you know.

[KARLI] I mean, I will say I did get feedback once that a character that I really enjoyed writing was coming off a little bit stalker-ish and so I really had to dial that back.

[KIM] Well, yeah, I mean, I think like an actual example from us: Megan is very, very good—like one of her skills is really focusing on like character agency. And every single time my character is not showing agency, she will call me out on it. And I'm always grateful for it. But I remember early on in our partnership, this was really when we were just kind of establishing our partnership and friendship or whatever. I was working on Keeper. Keeper had already sold at that point. And it was in the revision stages working with my editor and I had Megan read it and she sent me this big long thing back basically talking about how Lainey had no agency in several chunks of the book. And this is a book that had already sold. And I was like ahh, oh my god. But like I immediately kind of put my hat on and we talked about it and she helped me fix it and then because of that, because of the foundation that I was able to establish in Keeper, that character ended up evolving and really growing into, in my opinion, a very strong character with a lot of agency through the sequel. But I mean, that's difficult when you know, somebody says, "yeah, you know, your main character has no agency in this situation." But it was so helpful. And I was so grateful that she was able to, like, hone in on that and pointed out and she did so very kindly and very graciously and honestly, but you know, it was extremely helpful. So we have given each other difficult feedback. Emotion is huge for me. And so a lot of times I'll read a scene be like, I really love this, but let's put some more emotion in it. Let's make it—let's make readers cry. [Megan chuckles] So I mean—

[KARLI] I've never had to tell Jamie to do that. Uhn-uh. Never.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] Nope. Nope. Evidently, there are things that make people upset. And then readers expect that to upset people [laughing] and I just moved right along.

[MEGAN] We robots keep going. [laughter]

[JAMIE] That's not part of the plot.

[KIM] I think anytime you have to tell anybody that something in their story isn't working, that's challenging; because it's such a personal process. Sometimes I will go to Megan and be like, here, I wrote this, and I'm super excited about it. And she knows I'm excited about it. But in her head, she's also like, well, that doesn't work because of XYZ. And so she has to like, come to me in my excitement and be like, I really love this. But maybe you should think about this, I can always tell that something's not working. Because Megan will say, but you know, what if we thought about it this way. [laughter] I really like it, buuut. And then I'm like, well, I gotta scratch it. It's not working. Getting feedback is hard. But it stings less when it comes from Megan.

[MEGAN] We're helping each other through it too.

[KIM] Yeah.

[MEGAN] We're not giving each other feedback and being like, here's a problem. Have fun. We literally sit there and talk it out for hours sometimes.

[KIM] Yeah. So I'm not gonna give you a problem and then be like, okay, look, it's like, okay, well, I noticed this. So let's talk about it. And let's figure out how we can address it. That helps too, definitely. 'Cause a lot of times, if you get an edit letter from an editor, or from beta reader, like you kind of freak out, usually, oh, my gosh, I don't know how to fix this. But we're coming to each other with a problem, but also a solution. And that makes it less stressful.

[JAMIE] Yeah, you don't just give feedback and then walk away. It's like, if you need me to explain this further. Or if you want more ideas about this section, or how I felt about that, email me, call me, text me.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[KIM] And sometimes all it takes is like, it just takes her pointing something out or being like, hey, what about this, and then like, we start talking about it, and nine times out of ten, like, I'll come up with a solution to the problem that I really like. And it's not that Megan gave me the solution, she just brought the problem to my attention. And then I'm able to come up with a solution just from like spitballing and going back and forth. And, and vice versa.

[JAMIE] It's kind of just like feeding the embers, we're like blowing on the embers, and then you you light the fire.

[KARLI] And I definitely need the bouncing ideas off of somebody. I am such a verbal processor, I can come to it eventually. But I've got to just like talk in my weird squirrely way at somebody who cares and will retain at least a modicum of what I'm talking about for me to get there. So I totally get that.

[KIM] Yeah, you can't expect your critique partner to like fix the problems for you. That's not their job, like they're there to support you. And maybe that's where some critique partner relationships fall apart is because they're expecting one thing and getting another like, at the end of the day, like we're still responsible for our own stories. And within that too, our feedback is also incredibly subjective. In that trust nd in that brutal honesty, we also know and respect each other's choices as writers. Like if I give her feedback, and she doesn't take it or she goes in a different direction. I'm not gonna get my feelings hurt by that. Because ultimately, it's her story and she has to do what's right for her story. And I 100% respect that. That's really important that you go into it knowing, yeah, you're gonna help each other but they're not responsible for the outcome of your book. Like, that's you and you also don't necessarily have to take their feedback if it's not right for your story, too.

[KARLI] Absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that point up.

[JAMIE] So personal symbiotic relationship aside. [chuckling] As far as being like writers and critique partners, what are our favorite things about being critique partners?

[KARLI] I love the free stories. [laughter] Like I mean, seriously, just—there—I mean, I'm sure I could come up with more but my favorite thing is getting access to the—Jamie's creativity specific—I'll just be real specific because I love Jamie's brain. [Kim laughs] I was like quirky and stuff she is is just so fun for me. And so getting to watch her translate that into a story and then I get to read it and I get to read it before anybody else gets to read it. And I just feel like, so cool. [Jamie chuckles] I mean, there's a reason we readers We like the super exclusive ARCs and things like that. This is like the most exclusive level of nerdness when it comes to being a reader.

[JAMIE] That's so sweet of you to say, thank you. [chuckles]

[KARLI] [singsong] I love you.

[KIM] I mean, Karli kind of took my answer.

[KARLI] Oh, no.

[KIM] So...

[KARLI] See, I should have let my guest go first. Ettiquite would have dictated [Kim laughs] I let the guests go first, sorry.

[KIM] Well, I'm gonna like parallel that a little bit. And I'm going to try to say this without crying, but it's me. So. [chuckles] And I'm going to be again, super specific, because Megan is an extremely, extremely talented writer, like you guys just don't even know the depth of her talent and skill. And what my favorite part is, is not only getting to read her work before everybody else, but it is watching the beginning of a career that I know is going to explode when the time is right and her—[laughing] oh, I'm gonna cry, I'm gonna, oh, my throat is getting tight—I just generally believe that she is going to be big one day and that thousands of people are going to read her work, and be moved by it. Moved, like I am moved by it every single time I get to read. And that is just such a fun feeling for me, because I get to be along for the ride. I'm telling you guys, her work is amazing. And when you do finally get to read her book, you're gonna be blown away, because she's, she's my favorite author. And I'm her biggest fan. What can I say? [everyone chuckles]

[KARLI] Fangirling a little bit.

[KIM] A little bit, a little bit.

[MEGAN] Just, just a little bit. I would say. I mean, for me, I think it's a couple of things. Like one thing is kind of similar to getting the free stories. We do like that. That's even better than ARCs, like ARCs arrive and I'm like, Ooo. But you know, when I get to read something that literally no one else has read, that's super fun. But I think even more than that is like being behind the scenes of it. Not only seeing it take shape, but also being asked your opinion on like, how things are going to go and then watching someone take that and turn it into something completely different and better is the coolest thing. And I think like the other thing, if I'm talking like from just completely my own perspective, like you know how we all like writing, obviously. We wouldn't do it otherwise.

[KIM] What, we do? [laughter]

[KARLI] You like writing?

[KIM] Wait, really?

[JAMIE] I despise this. [laughter]

[MEGAN] We also hate it. It is a very strange relationship. This dream is convoluted. [Karli chuckles] Like it's one thing when you like write a line and you're like, oh, I like this. The tingly, like when you get the tingles in your teeth. Is that just me or like other? That happens to other people? I don't know.

[KARLI] I think that means you need to go to the dentist. [laughter]

[MEGAN] No. I don't think so.

[JAMIE] I'm pretty sure it does.

[MEGAN] I've like got goose bumps on my teeth. But I I get more excited when I write a line that I'm like, "Kim is gonna die." [Kim laughs]

[JAMIE] That's awesome.

[MEGAN] Yeah, but it's so like it's rewarding on a personal level, because so much of the journey and the process is total crap. [Karli laughs] It's real bad. We say it all the time. Why do we do this to ourselves? Because we can't not. That's why if we didn't, I don't know what we would do. Rob banks or something? [laughter]

[JAMIE] Back up. We'll call that plan B. [laughter]

[MEGAN] Right? It's really great to like, know that your critique partner has the same dream that you do, and that they're going through all the same things. They understand. I guess that's what the focus is.

[JAMIE] Camaraderie.

[MEGAN] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I'm gonna glom on to Karli's answer as well. [chuckles] I'm going to squish all of your answers into one answer. [all chuckle] That way, I don't have to come up with my own. It's getting the behind the scenes and know, it's something that I could never come up with. It's such a different angle. It's very exciting to see how that's going to unfold because it's, it's, what's the word? It's ineffable. [Karli laughs] You get a free story. And the behind the scenes of something that you just know is going to be amazing when it comes to fruition. Boom, I did put all of yours together didn't I?

[KARLI] Woo.

[JAMIE] I'm a real good cheater. [chuckles]

[KIM] It's really cool too 'cause you get to like, share. So much of the writing journey is like a door slammed in your face and [Jamie chuckles] you know, the writing journey and then also the publishing journey is even bigger doors slammed in your face.

[JAMIE] Once you get to publishing they spit on you and then they slam the door in your face. [laughter]

[KIM] But like when you journey with a critique partner and their victories are your victories and so even if your own journey is kind of a flaming dumpster fire, [Jamie chuckles] like if your critique partner is celebrating wins, like you get to celebrate those too and it's a pretty cool feeling.

[JAMIE] Well, because it's—it is a shared win.

[KIM AND KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Like nothing I accomplish could be accomplished without my critique partner.

[KIM] Ditto.

[MEGAN] Mhmm.

[KARLI] Yeah, same.

[JAMIE] It'd just all be flaming garbage in the trash bin. [chuckles]

[MEGAN] Yeah, or just no one would ever read it. [Kim chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah. Establishing a relationship with someone where you grow the courage to share. Because I don't think that one day you just wake up and have the courage to share. It's kind of one of those like, you have to leap before you know there's actually something there to catch you.

[KIM] But it's like you're not born with the desire or the ability to like, share, like, that's a skill that you have to kind of grow over time.

[KARLI] Yeah, growing that alongside somebody is part of what makes this process so fulfilling.

[KIM] Definitely.

[KARLI] Yeah, that that whole shared success thing.

[JAMIE] And then you have somebody who can occasionally point out how far you've come.

[KARLI] Yeah!

[JAMIE] There are days we all feel like, Why do I even do this? I'm no better off than I was, whatever many years ago. And then the other can come alongside and say, excuse me.

[KARLI] Hold up.

[JAMIE] You've done these things. I've learned this from you. I've seen your work improve and change and grow. And that's, that's another quality that hopefully a good critique partner is going to bring, is they can remind you of your triumphs when you feel like a dumpster fire.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Which is 90% of the time.

[KIM] Yup. [Megan laughs]

[JAMIE] So would you like to do a Two Cent Recommendation this week?

[MEGAN] Yeah, I have one for sure. Mine's a couple of years old.

[JAMIE] Just the way I like it.

[MEGAN] So people may have already partaken and been like, okay, nevermind. Mine is actually, I think, a really interesting documentary that spoke to me on a soul level when it came, it's called Into the Unknown. It's the making of Frozen II. So it's on like Disney+, it is like a six episode... five or six episodes. That's like, I think stretched along the last year of the production of Frozen II. And it is so applicable to the writing journey. And it's talking about a lot of the things we've talked about: critique and feedback, and editing and stress and all this stuff. When they start it, like almost none of the film is actually done. They have a like a sketch version of the film. That's, it's really raw.

[JAMIE] Yeah. It's like the storyboard.

[MEGAN] Yeah, it's more like a storyboard. And they go into a theater. And it's full of all the top people of Disney and Pixar and like these big, huge names of storytelling, and they go in there and they rip it to shreds. I mean, these are very well known, respected, award winning storytellers in their own right, and they are just walking away licking their wounds. But they're talking about how this is an imperative part of the process. Because if you're putting something out for public consumption, you have to let the public consume it. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Mmm. Yeah.

[MEGAN] You know, and it's better to do it kind of beforehand. So you can tweak things, and you don't just give them something terrible.

[JAMIE] That's great. That's not something that I would probably see and click on. But now that I know that, I will for sure.

[KARLI] I—Yeah.

[KIM] She called me and was like, "Kim, you have to watch this documentary." Of course, I'm a Disney princess at heart anyway, so I was like [high pitch voice] "Ooo, the making of Frozen!" [normal voice] She's like, "No, no, no, it is like a direct parallel to the creative process as a writer."

[KARLI] Fantastic recommendation. I never—same. I never would have clicked on that. But now I totally am.

[JAMIE] Thank you guys so much for coming on and like sharing your experiences and showing us that we're not the only ones who are like in a real weird, symbiotic relationship. [laughter] If you're looking for Megan or Kim, they can both be found on Instagram @kimwritesbooks, or @meganwritenow. And their websites are kimchance.com and authormeganlacroix.com.

[KIM] That's us.

[JAMIE] You can follow us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast or on Twitter @theactbreak_. You can find a transcript for this episode as well as a backlog of all of our episodes on our website at scifiohmy.com/podcasts on the episode archives or follow the links in our Instagram page. Subscribe on wherever you acquire this fine, fine podcast and we will talk to you next week. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Bye, internet friends.

[MEGAN AND KIM] Bye!!! [laughing]

Forced to Read - Transcript

[JAMIE] The whole concept of this week's episode was good in theory. [Karli chuckles] And but you were like, much nicer to me than I was to you.

[KARLI] Wait, what?

[JAMIE] You picked a better book than me.

[KARLI] Oh. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Well, I'm saying you picked a less challenging book.

[KARLI] I was like, let's have let's just do like something fun and light hearted. And Jamie's like, here, have a book... [laughing] It's gonna give you an existential crisis. It's fine. This is totally fine.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and I probably should have known that because I don't think there's a single book by that author. That won't [laughing] give you an existential crisis. It's gonna be a real interesting day.

[KARLI] True test of friendship right here. We, we have really decided to put our friendship to the test this season with all of the episodes that we have already released, and some ones that are coming up that are like, what are we doing here?

[JAMIE] That's a little foreshadowing about how you felt about the book, you had to read. [LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] No, it's more of like, what are you going to think about what I think about the book.

[JAMIE] Oooh.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Doo doo doo doo doo do! That was our intro.

[KARLI] I like it. Is it new?

[JAMIE] Yeah, it is. No, I made it myself.

[KARLI] [chuckling] I can tell.

[JAMIE] [chuckling] Which is funny, because I didn't even make that myself. It's very popular sound.

[KARLI] [laughing] I know.

[JAMIE] This is a circus. [Karli laughs] All right. Anyway, sorry. Sorry. That was all.

[KARLI] That was all. [laughing] Jamie's introduction.

[JAMIE] This will cut together and it'll be great. It'd be good together. Let me do again. Let me do it again.

[KARLI] Okay.

[JAMIE] Alright. [clears throat] I want to say that I feel like this has always been our weakest and most awkward point is like the welcome and introduction because somebody told us that it was really important that we tell you who we are and what we do. [laughs]

[KARLI] You don't have to, you can just say "I'm Jamie.”

[JAMIE] I am Jamie.

[KARLI] No, I'm, I'm Jamie.

[JAMIE] I don't know, Karli. [laughs]

[KARLI] You don't know. You don't know. That's fine.

[JAMIE] Karli, help me!

[KARLI] As proof of Jamie's existential crisis, she doesn't know who she is anymore.

[JAMIE] Accurate.

[KARLI] I'm Karli. And I reject existential crises.

[JAMIE] I love that for you. [both laugh] Do that.

[KARLI] I refuse to have any more.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Okay.

[KARLI] All done.

[JAMIE] I like that.

[KARLI] I'm all full up.

[JAMIE] That's the energy we all need in our lives. I'm really making like, all of my struggles are self made right now. And when I say that, I mean editing this episode.

[KARLI] [chuckles] It was your idea.

[JAMIE] I am a problem. This week, we are doing what we've titled forced to read in which both of us chose a book for the other to read. Our only stipulations were it had to have been something they had not read before, and it had to be fairly short.

[KARLI] Which clearly was a problem for me.

[JAMIE] Yeah, in retrospect, maybe we should have had a few more stipulations. But. [Karli laughs] And so the books that were chosen were...

[KARLI] The Westing Game by Ellen Raskin.

[JAMIE] Is what I was slated to read. And then...

[KARLI] Jamie forced me to read...

[JAMIE] Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

[KARLI] Just some light Saturday reading.

[JAMIE] I don't know if you could get—I mean, they're pretty opposite books. Like opposite end of the spectrum.

[KARLI] I don't know we could have gone any different than we did.

[JAMIE] I don't think we could have. I will say that one of the reasons why I have chosen this book, is because Karli had previously failed to read it. [laughs]

[KARLI] I did. I promised to read it. Last... It was years ago.

[JAMIE] Two years. [laughs]

[KARLI] Two years ago now. We had decided as critique partners to read a few books that the other had chosen that were and we felt either represented us or something that we really enjoyed that influenced us.

[JAMIE] Something that did something narratively or stylistically, that we admired or hoped to accomplish in our own work.

[KARLI] That. Jamie read all the books I gave to her, which I mean, I did try to not give her epic door stoppers.

[JAMIE] There was one I did not read.

[KARLI] Oh, okay. Maybe I should just pick a new book in replacement.

[JAMIE] You're gonna pick that Joe Abercrombie book aren't you. I just know it.

[KARLI] I will not force you to read Joe Abercrombie.

[JAMIE] It's just that there's too many of them. You know how I feel about series.

[KARLI] I know. Anyways, how did you feel about the book that I asked you to read?

[JAMIE] Yeah. [chuckles] The Westing Game by Ellen Raskin, published in 1978, is a middle grade... mystery? I guess you might call it. It is from the classic era of why is this a middle grade?

[KARLI] [laughs] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Because the idea of a middle grader now reading this book is like, I don't know if they would understand most of what's going on. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's, it's a murder mystery. And it definitely is old enough that there are concepts in there that no middle grader would have heard of before. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] It's really interesting. I mean, the most notorious one is Narnia, where it's middle grade, but it is kind of a higher thing to grasp. My overall opinion was it was good. I have so many feelings. It's it's this is much more of a chat it out episode, I started reading it. And I usually am reading like, two, three books, all at the same time. Not simultaneously. But I mean, [laughing] I'm i— I'm working my way through three books at any given time. And I started this, and I instantly went, I am going to need to not read anything and just read this. Because there's like, a dozen characters.

[KARLI] There's sixteen.

[JAMIE] There's so many characters, [Karli chuckles] and keeping track of them was a job and in itself.

[KARLI] Because the POV shift, there's no like, she shifts between all of them so quickly, there...

[JAMIE] Well, it's just an omnipresent third person narration, which that wasn't so much the problem, it was like, just keeping track of like if they referenced somebody connecting that back to the right character. And she did do a good job of trying to give them each their own quirk or trait that you could attach to that. Eventually, that was not a problem. But initially, it's not like you learn about them slowly. You get them all thrown at you all at once.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And that's like in a kind of whodunit, mystery. That's how it goes. Yeah. But it was funny to be like, and this was supposed to be for middle graders. [laughs]

[KARLI] I read it as a middle grader too. And like, I don't know, for whatever reason, it worked for me. And it clicked. And I—yeah, but I could definitely see where it might be a lot.

[JAMIE] Yeah. And then the other things that stand out to me about this book are I'm cool with suspended belief. That's absolutely part of reading fiction. But it was just so funny to me... One of the characters is a child. I think they say that she's like—

[KARLI] I think Turtle's like twelve or something.

[JAMIE] But yeah, Turtle's like twelve. She's really into the stock market. [laughs]

[KARLI] [laughs] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Like, which I think is like a funny quirk. But I was like, I don't understand why this was like, a feasible solution. [both laugh] So that was kind of funny. But I really like the whole vibe created with, it's this building full of people. They've all been kind of roped into this adventure-ish. And basically, they have to like discover... oh spoilers. Who's murdered this wealthy guy?

[KARLI] This wealthy business mogul?

[JAMIE] Yes. Who is going to leave his fortune to whoever solves his murder, right? And then they are given clues. And you know, as a reader, you have the advantage of seeing all of the clues.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So those quickly—

[KARLI] All of the ones except for the ones that are purposefully left out until the very end so that you can't figure it out yourself.

[JAMIE] Even though those technically as a writer, I'm like, those should all be there. They should just be hidden. But it was interesting the way so they're in teams like teams of two, these sixteen people or whatever. And they all get random clues. And the way a bunch of the characters decided to interpret their clues was so random. That I just like I'm like, I don't understand how we've jumped to this conclusion. [both chuckle] Or why we think it's like a super great idea. Like the one where they're like maybe there's a twin [Karli laughs] and then keep on trying to randomly have casually during this party like find out if somebody has a twin was very awkward.

[KARLI] It is so awkward. But that character is supposed to be awkward.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] So it was very in character.

[JAMIE] That was in character. But it also didn't make no sense. And it's not the It made no sense. As it was written, it just made no sense for like, the plot the plot, yeah, there was like one person was like, maybe there's a twin and then like turtles, it means the stock market. [Karli laughs] And I was just like, I don't understand how these people are reaching these conclusions. That was kind of the big thing that stood out to me.

[KARLI] I mean, obviously, I have like a very soft spot for it, because I have read it so many times from my childhood. So there's a whole thing with that. But as an adult, I have gone back to it and been like, these people are absolutely nuts. And I can look at it objectively, and—but there is a part of me that's just like, well, yeah, it's like, it's a building full of super quirky people. And honestly, I keep popping into my head about like, Only Murders in the Building. And I just, it's a cozy mystery full of really weird people doing goofy things. And I can see where though, the—the suspension of belief is just, it's just a little too far.

[JAMIE] Yeah, there's still things in it that I'm like, why this? Like, why was the sister planting bombs? [Karli laughs] Like, she was blowing crap up and like, harmed people. And they were like, she was just quirky. Like, it didn't make a lot of sense.

[KARLI] She was having a hard time. Okay, her charmed life was too much.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] And so she turns to bomb making. [laughing] You know, as we do.

[JAMIE] Okay, yeah, she sent multiple people in the hospital, including herself and almost blew her [laughing] sister's face off.

[KARLI] It's fine. Just a casual bombing, okay? [laughing]

[JAMIE] Like, I don't get it. And then the end. Basically, we weren't actually given the clues to try and unravel the mystery. They were purposefully omitted, then the mystery that we thought was happening was actually something else, which I guess is sort of they're trying to make it like a plot twist. But it mostly felt to me like a cop out of like, figure out this thing. Oh, there's no way to figure it out. Because it didn't really happen. Also, we didn't give you all the information to let you know what happened.

[KARLI] I think my biggest gripe with it, having like thought about it objectively, especially trying like knowing that you were going to read it and you were going to notice things that I am willing to just let go because it's one of my favorite books. And I definitely was like, yeah, had I read this older, I would have been very frustrated by the idea that I could not solve the mystery, because all the clues weren't given to me as the reader. And that is the pitch on the back of the book is that you are one of the people that could potentially figure it out. So it's kind of misleading, kind of—it's very misleading. In that sense. And I could see as a reader being very frustrated by that. If I went into it later.

[JAMIE] I can see where it's very much a book where you're like, you have to read it at a certain time to have that connection. It's a lot like if you have never seen The Lord of the Rings, and you watch it now. Sometimes if you don't catch something at a certain point in your life, it's never gonna connect the same way it did with a lot of other people. Overall, I think it was a fine book. I wouldn't I'm not mad I read it. [Karli laughs] I will say it's one of the only books I ever kept notes about, but I was like, Oh, I'm gonna unravel the mystery. And then I'm like, Okay, this obviously is going to be this. And then they're like, oh, yeah, here's this extra thing that we didn't tell you about. Like, okay.

[KARLI] Well, I mean, the extra thing at the end they do for—it is foreshadowed.

[JAMIE] Which things are you talking about?

[KARLI] The fact that he wasn't actually dead?

[JAMIE] Yeah, they foreshadow that, I was thinking that he wasn't dead, probably like, two thirds in the way. I'm like, I don't think he's dead. The big thing that bugged me though, is that there was no explanation why he did that. Why? Why did he choose to do that?

[KARLI] It's well, I mean—

[JAMIE] It was just, it was, it purely felt like he did it because he's rich and eccentric.

[KARLI] Yes. And that, I mean, in that is a very big thing for for that he is a rich, eccentric, and he likes to play games.

[JAMIE] I mean, at least he didn't go full Squid Game. [Karli laughs] But yeah, I was like...

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Rich eccentric people. [laughing] Stupid.

[KARLI] Fair, totally fair. I definitely can see all of your your, your quibbles about it, but I'm glad you read it. And it's just one of my favorite quirky goofy things

[JAMIE] I did enjoy like character arcs of like these people who are all strangers and kind of resented each other all for different reasons, kind of grew a little bit closer together. And that very much like enforces that, like, the more you talk to somebody, the more you can connect, and the more you sympathize and have more compassion, because you will look at them as real people.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So that she did a good job of that. And like, there was very stark contrast between the beginning of the story and end of the story and how everybody viewed each other and interacted. So that was really good. That was done very well.

[KARLI] Yeah, I really enjoyed that as well.

[JAMIE] Now we have to go to like a much deeper, weirder...

[KARLI] More existential place.

[JAMIE] Yeah, we really do because Kurt Vonnegut Jr. Doesn't really not do existential. [chuckles] So I was not the kindest to Karli as far as picking a book to chat about. And it's like, you pretty much know right away if it's for you, or if it's not. [Karli laughs] So what did you think?

[KARLI] So I knew pretty much immediately it wasn't going to be for me. I definitely can see and appreciate what he's going for, what he's trying to do. I mean, obviously, it is a satire about people, the truth and lies in religion and science and in the hands of people who are dumber than they realize, who they think that they're wildly intellectual, or they are wildly intellectual, but people just make stupid choices. And then, you know, it's about the irony of science being meant to help people but then ultimately destroying us. And—so I totally get what he's going for. And I love a good satire. But I think his delivery, the style of his particular brand of satire, just doesn't land for me. Just just missed the mark for me. I found it a little more, a little too um—I got it in the first chapter. And then he kept going, I was like, why do we need a whole book?

[JAMIE] Like he kept he kept his style throughout? And you're like, ehh. [laughs]

[KARLI] [laughs] No, no, I don't mean that. I mean, I mean, yes, obviously, he kept his style throughout, because he is a good writer for what he's doing. It's just, I got the point of the satire in the first chapter. And so I didn't need to reach the full conclusion. Like, I'm like, well, yeah, clearly everybody's going to die. And the world is, you know, life is futile. I get it. I don't need to read the entire book to be reminded of the futility of life over and over again. [laughs]

[JAMIE] And yeah, he does do like the theme is pretty clear. I think it's interesting, because this one in particular, none of Kurt Vonnegut's books are like one thing. It's a satire on science. It's a commentary on religion. But then it's also a commentary on like, if religion brings people comfort... Shouldn't that be okay? If somebody is comforted by their belief system, should we really like fault them for that?

[KARLI] Right? Why not let them have it? I'm glad you brought that up, because that is something I did notice as well. And like you said, it is not just one thing. I mean, yes, he had a larger overarching theme. But he had subtleties throughout it that were trying to get people to question their perception. Even though he is satirizing religion, he is also making very distinctive points that, you know, if life is futile, why shouldn't we find things that comfort us along the way, and human connection and all of those things, so.

[JAMIE] If I had a thought further about it, I'm like, I maybe don't want to discuss Kurt Vonnegut, because it's like, [chuckles] there's way too much to discuss when it comes to Kurt Vonnegut, because while I enjoy the books that I have read from him, that's not me saying like, I agree with everything or that I disagree with— It's just a very, I enjoy it, because it's so thought provoking. Yeah, it really makes you think about a lot of different aspects or perspectives.

[KARLI] Right.

[JAMIE] It's a whole thing.

[KARLI] Yeah. And I definitely can see why people enjoy reading him for that purpose. I just—how do I want to say this without coming across like a pompous ass?

[JAMIE] People who read Kurt Vonnegut are pompous. So I don't— [laughs]

[KARLI] Obviously, I this is my first Vonnegut. So I'm like, kind of just trying to get a better picture of like, who he was as a writer, et cetera, et cetera. So in the googling of Vonnegut, I definitely noticed a running theme of like, well, if you don't like Vonnegut, you don't get Vonnegut and I'm like, listen, I get Vonnegut, I just don't care for it. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Yeah, yeah, that's a real thing that can happen.

[KARLI] It is a real thing, it can happen. And we can have a discussion about a book that we don't like without being pompous and rude about it. Or allowing people to have a difference of opinion. I was talking to the mechanic about it a little bit. And he's like, "Well, it's a lot like stand up comedy. Not every comic is for everybody."

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] There's people who find that person super funny, and plenty of people who don't. And I think it's kind of follows along those same lines, when you find an author that you really like, they're going to really connect with some people, and they're really not with others. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Especially because his stuff is so stylistic. It can be like a multitude of factors. It could be when you read it, all of our opinions are informed by our own life experiences.

[KARLI] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] I will say I'm a little surprised because it's so philosophical, that I thought that you'd be more interested in because you're always mentioning how much you like philosophy. But that makes sense. Like you were saying, where it's like you got it at the beginning, but it was maybe something you didn't want to focus on, on the theme of the this particular novel.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] Even though most of his novels are similarly themed of, you know, how horrible humanity is. [laughing]

[KARLI] [laughs] Yeah.

[JAMIE] But that's very much informed by the his, his experiences.

[KARLI] Personal experiences. Absolutely. Like you said, I do really like philosophy. And I think because I like philosophy, I think about all of these kinds of things a lot. So I don't necessarily want to read a whole book about it, especially when it's repeating itself. It's similar back to what I thought of Dune. I get it, I see why so many people like it, I respect their choice in it. But if I'm gonna read philosophy, I want to read a philosophy book where I'm hearing about different kinds of theories and ideas.

[JAMIE] I was going to ask what philosophy books like that you recommend? And like, turn to.

[KARLI] I haven't in years. So I mean, it's like I can't, I can't really like, here's my suggestion. I enjoyed it when I was studying it in college, a lot. And I am not opposed to having philosophical discussions about life and learning more about different philosophers and what they've got going on. And I do think that in his right, Vonnegut is a philosopher. He's just the, the delivery system of a lot of authors from that era is not for me. I just don't care for their approach, because it feels heavy handed. And I feel like I'm being talked down to that. I mean, that I think is just a personal reaction from my own experience. I don't think that they're purposefully trying to do that. Or if they—I don't know, there's plenty of people who don't think that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I think it's that like, we all have our own reactions to different things.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] Because when I read Vonnegut, I feel much more like a wink, wink, nudge, nudge, kind of feeling like we're both in on the joke.

[KARLI] Mmm. Yeah. I think it's interesting to have these kinds of conversations because of that very reason. Different people have different reactions to it. And you saying that, I totally get why you feel that way. Because I think that that is what he's trying to provoke in people, or evoke in people. But it just didn't work for me.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it just didn't land.

[KARLI] It didn't have that same effect. This whole conversation is a good way to look at one having discussions about something that somebody else likes that you don't, and having a respectful discussion about it. And also as writers, being willing to continue on with our work, knowing full well that there are going to be people who don't like it, and being okay with that.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] And writing it anyways. Because you are going there are going to be people who do like it.

[JAMIE] Yeah. And I think that that that's like a maturity thing that comes over time where you're like, not everybody's gonna like the same things. And even people who you're really close to aren't gonna like the same things as you.

[KARLI] Yeah. Friends can like different things and still be friends.

[JAMIE] Yeah. I have read quite a few Vonnegut, but I'm like, that's the first thing I say to people. He's not for everybody. I immediately know that of the people I know, I would imagine that maybe 1% of those people might like Vonnegut. It's a very acquired taste. It's very niche. I was not kind to Carly when I was like, here's this book and you have to read. You're required to finish it.

[KARLI] [laughs] Required reading. I feel like I'm back in school. Am I—do I have to give a book report too?

[JAMIE] Yes. It's gotta be essay form.

[KARLI] I feel like my notes were on it were a book report,

[JAMIE] Which is so funny because I, like, I took no notes on the book you gave me. [laughs]

[KARLI] Well you said you kept some.

[JAMIE] I was trying to solve the mystery but that was it. [laughs]

[KARLI] Oh okay, that was it, that's fine. Well, you remember your thoughts a little bit better [chuckles] your your brain is a little bit more organized and it's filing system. Mine is very much representative of what my office looks like on a regular basis, which is random stacks and piles everywhere with like assorted fruit snack wrappers mixed in.

[JAMIE] That is funny, because my desk is almost always completely clear. [laughs] There's a metaphor in here somewhere. [both laugh] It's just part of—

[KARLI] Well you have, you have a very organized system, and none of it needs to be on your desk so that you have a visually clear space so that you can—

[JAMIE] I am one of those people are like if things are cluttered, I get anxious. Like it just gives me more anxiety.

[KARLI] I mean, I do too, but I don't learn. So... [laughs]

[JAMIE] We all make choices.

[KARLI] There's a metaphor in there too. [both laugh]

[JAMIE] Well, I really appreciate that you read that whole book and you kept notes and you're willing to discuss, but yeah, definitely a very stylistic. What did I say is it was published in like 1963. It's definitely one of those. I mean, as much as Kurt Vonnegut is so different, not only in his writing, but also in his views of the world than so many of the other white guys [both chuckle] from his time that wrote science fiction books. Very different, but he's also—

[KARLI] He is, he is also still a product of his time. Yeah. And we could go into like, what was going on in history. Because, you know, me, I totally like, was like, oh, well, yeah. Because when he was writing this, and—

[JAMIE] Yeah, and every single one of his stories are very informed by the fact that he was present for the bombing of Dresden. I mean, I don't think I've read a single book that doesn't reflect that in his work.

[KARLI] Absolutely. And that is another like, as writers, we use our writing to process our emotions and traumas and all of these things. And so those things creep in, even if we're not trying to, I just think he was trying to.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] So yeah, well, I mean, and thank you for reading my book, too. I definitely gave it to you knowing full well, that it probably wasn't going to land for you the same that it did for me. But I still wanted you to read it, because I thought it was quirky and a good time.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] But I definitely was thinking about it. And I was going back in my mind, like trying and looking at my shelf. And I'm like, What would I have her read, else? Because every shorter book that I've read that I love, you've read too. [Jamie chuckles] I don't read shorter books. So I mean, I actually do way more now than I ever used to. I used to, like exclusively read door stoppers. But all of the short books that I've read, either you recommended to me or I recommended to you so I'm like that was it. That was my last short book [both laugh] that I had.

[JAMIE] I feel exactly the same, because if you hadn't already read it, I would have given you Red Dwarf.

[KARLI] Oh, oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] Because that is much more like, oh, I want to do this.

[KARLI] Right, much more of what you're trying to do with your writing, closer.

[JAMIE] But you've already read all the Red Dwarf, so I had to pick something else. [laughs] So the question would become say, it doesn't have to be super short, and say, I'm not going to choose something that's painful for you. One, would you would you consider doing this again?

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] Nobody can see you nodding.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I know I realized it as I was doing it. Yes, I definitely would consider doing this again. I would have to have more notice to be thinking about trying to find a book for you that wouldn't be some massive undertaking.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Because otherwise, I'm going to be like here. Joe Abercrombie, and his like sixteen books. [Jamie laughs] It's fine. This is not a time commitment.

[JAMIE] Yeah, Karli be like, well, you can either read The Blade Itself, or The Wheel of Time. [Karli laughs] It's up to you. Like, thanks. Thanks for that.

[KARLI] Thanks for nothing.

[JAMIE] Just I just want you to read Recursion. I mean…

[KARLI] Oh, yeah. Next time.

[JAMIE] Next time. We say as if there will be a next time. We'll see about that. Since you did have time to think about this, do you have a two-cent recommendation for us this week?

[KARLI] I do. I am actually going to recommend the first book in a series that I have yet to finish, but I love the first one. It's The Broken Earth series, but the first book is The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin. It is fantastic. And it is also definitely a commentary on society. But it's fantasy.

[JAMIE] I just received that on my Libby app.

[KARLI] Yay.

[JAMIE] As long as cuz I can finish the other three books I'm reading and get to it before that lapses, I'll be able to get on that train with ya.

[KARLI] Awesome.

[JAMIE] Thanks, Karli.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] And thank you everyone for listening. Thanks for listening, follow and subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, whatever podcast thing you use. Pocket Casts. There's like a bunch that I don't even know about because I'm an old lady. A transcript can be found at our website at scifiohmy.coms/podcast. And you can find us on social media @theactbreak_podcast on Instagram, and @theactbreak_ on twitter. Links to all that can also be found in our Instagram bio. Thanks for listening, everybody.

[KARLI] Talk to you later, internet friends.

[JAMIE] Did I forget something?

[KARLI] I don't think so.

[JAMIE] [laughing] Okay.

Building Character - Transcript

[KARLI] I have been relegated to the closet again.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] Your mechanic is monopolizing the office with his intense gaming needs.

[KARLI] [laughs] I mean, that could be a factor. But also my house is chaos today. And I, I act like it's such a big deal, but the sound is so much better in here. And I've got like, there's a spot for everything like my sticky notes are on the little bin in front of me and notes aren't underneath the mic like they usually are. And like, my clean—my clean canteen fits in my little boot hole. So it's perfect.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] It’s in a little boot hole.

[KARLI] It's a boot hole.

[JAMIE] You're a regular Harry Potter. [both laugh] Just happy to be in your little space. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yay.

[JAMIE] You always seem gleeful to be there.

[KARLI] You know, it's really funny. There's something about it that I actually genuinely enjoy other than my legs going dead. I love it. It's a good time.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] Wel—[coughs then chuckles]

[KIM] Welcome to the Act Break Podcast.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I mean, hey, take it away.

[KIM] I listen every week, I feel like I could do the intro.

[KARLI] You've been here before.

[KIM] It's true.

[JAMIE] That warms my cold, dead heart.

[KARLI] Alright. Welcome back to The Act Break, where at least 50% of us know what we're doing about a quarter percent of the time. I am Karli. And so excited to be here with our guest today. And I brought that up before Jamie even got to say hi.

[JAMIE] [laughs] I am not excited at all. And I'm also not Jamie. I just want to come out of the gate with lies. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] Fair. Kim, did you want to introduce yourself today or would you like me to say things about you?

[KIM] Hello, I'm Kim Chance. And I am an author. And I'm here to talk authorly, writerly, story things with you gals. Hello, everyone.

[JAMIE] Welcome. Thanks for coming back to Season Two.

[KIM] Season two. I'm so excited to be back with you ladies tonight.

[JAMIE] We made it to season two. And you definitely helped with that. All of our guests last season really made this season possible. And I just want to throw that out there. [chuckles]

[KIM] It was a pretty epic lineup. I listened to every episode. And I have to say it was a it was a great season. So I'm excited to see what season two has in store.

[JAMIE] Oh.

[KARLI] Thank you. I mean...

[KIM] No pressure.

[JAMIE] I don't like there to be expectations.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Oh, I'm sweating bullets already. We've already talked to some really fantastic people. So it's very exciting. It's a good time here.

[KIM] That's awesome.

[JAMIE] We have to say that because they're the same people we talked to last season. [chuckles]

[KIM] Well you know, internet friends are the best. I love it.

[KARLI] They really are. So thank you, thank you for coming back.

[KIM] Happy to be here.

[KARLI] So let's just dive in. Today's topic is characterization.

[KIM] One of my favorite things. I'm so excited.

[JAMIE] It builds character. [Kim chuckles]

[KARLI] It builds character, it does. From conception to actualization. What characterization is what it does, and hopefully how to do it. That's what we're doing here today. So, Jamie, do you have a definition?

[KARLI] Oh, my God, what?

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Well, I've stopped looking up like it was a very nebulous, fine, I'll do what I did last time. And I'll just...

[KARLI] Pull one out of your ass?

[JAMIE] Make it up as I go. Characterization is the thing that makes your character seem believable, like they are a person that might exist in real life. They usually have a consistency to them in a way that once you get to know them, you might know how they react to things. We're gonna go over a bunch of points on that matter. But I would just say that in general, it's the personality and the makeup that define your character.

[KIM] Yeah, I like to think of it as a recipe. Because it's all of the ingredients that make up a whole. And so there's so many things that go into creating a character, personality, you know, looks, how they talk, how they think, how they react to things, like there's so many different things. So it's like a recipe, all the different elements that make up a person. The construction of a person.

[KARLI] I like that because nobody wants to eat a cardboard cutout. [Kim laughs]

[KIM] I hope not.

[KARLI] Do you like that? Mixed metaphors? I know, I did a really good job. [Kim chuckles] Alright, well, I figured we could start with character arcs. Most of the ones that we see are what, like positive change, negative change, and a flat arc. I mean, I think that there might be kind of some more nebulous ones, but I feel like those...

[KIM] The standard ones.

[KARLI] Most characters can fit into one of those three.

[KIM] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Do we want to each do one?

[KARLI] Sure. Kim, do you want to take the positive?

[KIM] Sure.

[KARLI] Jamie, I feel like you can take the flat arc because I know that that's your favorite anyways.

[JAMIE] Okay. [laughs]

[KARLI] Is that okay with you? Yeah, that's all right. Great. Alright, Kim, you want to start with the positive?

[KIM] Yes, I'm glad you're letting me go first. Because if my idea of what a positive arc is wrong, you can, you guys can just like, cut me out and start over.

[JAMIE] We're all going to be like wait, wait, to each other.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Listen, this is clearly a panel of experts here. So let me just push my glasses up and get to work.

[KIM] Yes. I mean, I think for me, the definition of a positive arc is a very standard, what you see of your protagonist or the hero—I mean, not always—there’s, with characterization, there's going to be exceptions to like everything that we say. But I think for me, it is kind of this standard, where they start out as one thing, and over the course of the story, they change in a positive way, like they show growth, by the end of the story. Who they are at the very beginning of the story is not who they are at the end of the story. And they've grown exponentially in a very positive way. Like even if the events that have occurred were somewhat negative or sad, or whatever the character has grown and will be able to move forward in a positive way. How'd I do?

[KARLI] I love that, fantastic. [Kim chuckles] No notes. Building on that the negative change arc is similar in the sense that who they are at the beginning is not necessarily who they are at the end. [chuckles] But they don't really grow and change to become a better human being or creature or whatever it is that you're writing, the things that they encounter, tend to lead them on a downward trend. This is usually like the villain origin story, or just simply a character falling into a descent of... a tragedy. It is how you format their personal story into a tragedy.

[JAMIE] It's like when your character doesn't necessarily overcome the adversity that they're faced with.

[KARLI] Exactly.

[JAMIE] They succumb to it. They become worse because of it instead of coming out on the other side positive.

[KARLI] Yeah, definitely. All right, Jamie, what do you got for flat arc?

[JAMIE] Okay. [laughs]

[KARLI] And I feel like it's such a funny way to say that flat arc, because like arc, by definition—I just want you to visualize an arc with me [chuckles], and then—

[KIM] Just a flat—

[KARLI] And then make it flat.

[KIM] A line. [laughs]

[JAMIE] And so in the way that that relates to characterization, I would say, I like to give examples that you see flat arcs a lot in maybe like a... procedural crime novels will often have the type of character that's probably having a flat arc. They're not necessarily growing. Usually, the change is more about the arc of the story than the arc of the character. They might face a lot of adversity, but maybe that doesn't necessarily change them one way or the other. Why did I—why did I get the hardest one?

[KARLI] [laughs] Because it's your favorite.

[JAMIE] I enjoy a character that knows who they are. Not all the time. But a positive arc has to do with figuring out who you are, becoming a better person. Maybe not everybody becomes a better person. Maybe they just are who they are. [laughs] I don't know.

[KARLI] I mean, a lot of times for sure.

[JAMIE] That was horrible. I'm sorry.

[KARLI] No, that wasn't bad at all. And I think you're totally right, in bringing up procedural crime, I think of like James Bond even. And those types of characters kind of the iconic superhero, even, they have a certain like, moral compass, that they have this trajectory that they go. And there's, again, there's always exceptions to every rule with every arc, but I feel like that, that applies.

[KIM] Yeah, and not every character can have this huge sweeping evolution of character, you know. In every story, you have to have those consistent characters where it's just not their time, for that big change for that big whatever is going to happen to them. And so they are still affected by what happens in the story, but it doesn't make them a completely different person. They have that level of consistency that you need, a lot of times, to kind of pair with your protagonist and your antagonist or your secondary protagonist or whatever.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and in some ways, I feel like it can be used to echo life in a nice way where sometimes you go through adversity and you, we don't come out a better person but you do come out the other side, and that's the best you can hope for.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Alright, so in that there are so many ways to develop and execute certain characters within our story frame. So it's kind of hard to like pick a starting point. But maybe a good spot would be to start by talking about the interaction with plot. Because it's such an overarching thing, we could get down to the minutiae, a little bit further on in how to make characters feel a bit more alive. But I think it's important to take a second and look at how to pick a character and a character arc that fits the plot of the story that we're kind of going for. Did I totally jack up my wording on that again?

[KIM] No, that—I love how you started that—it just kind of gave me like a side note, because I don't start with plot, I start with characters. And you were kind of talking about how do we choose characters for the plot.

[KARLI] I mean, either way. [Kim chuckles] Totally. Get, get into it.

[KIM] I just think that's kind of interesting. Like when it comes to crafting story, characterization is such a huge part. But depending on what type of writer you are, how you approach characterization could change because some people start with plot, and then they craft their characters around plot, whereas characters always come to me first. And so a lot of times, I might have a very general plot idea, but I'm focusing specifically on characters, and then I build the plot around them. So, how you approach it can be different. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] This is all gold, because when I was thinking about this episode, I got really excited that we have you here, Kim.

[KIM] Oh.

[JAMIE] This is a great point, because I agree, everybody is going to come at it a different way. But even though I'm plot first, in my head, the type of character you have is going to dictate the tone of your story. If you have a character who's an upbeat, positive person, it's going to be a completely different book than if your main character is a down on everything, nihilist. The tone, and what is going to be considered like an obstacle for them is going to be different for each of those characters. So you have to establish who your character is to establish what the plot that you're going to throw at them is.

[KARLI] Because the ultimate, like if you had to, like condense down the end point of your plot... Ultimately, the actions happening around these characters could be the same. But how the reader takes it away is going to be vastly different based on who the character that they're following is.

[KIM] Sure.

[JAMIE] Depending on who your character is, how they're going to handle each situation is going to be different. So you can throw the same things at them, but the outcome would probably look different. How—not that this is a bad thing—how I come at a problem and how Kim comes out a problem, [all chuckle] I’m gonna guess are probably going to be exactly the same.

[KARLI] Probably, yeah.

[KIM] I think we discovered this on one of the last episodes that Jamie and I are like polar opposites. And Karli's in the happy, like middle ground over there. [laughs]

[KARLI] [chuckles] Like I like to have one foot on each side of the fence, thank you very much.

[JAMIE] But it's like, depending on your character's personality, will depend on their reactions to things. You have to come up with their outlook on life.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[KIM] You have to know your character really well. You know, I get a lot of questions about characterization, like how do you craft three dimensional characters, and I always say you got to know your character in and out like they were a real person. Because how they think about things, how they react, how they are emotionally, like all of those things influence their decisions. And that's ultimately what they're doing in a story is they're making decisions about things that happen to them. And so if you don't know how they're going to react to certain things, or how other people's reactions are gonna affect them, you then you're gonna have a really hard time crafting that character and crafting the story. So it's important to know who they are.

[KARLI] One hundred percent. I love this. I think that this is a great way to segue into some conversation about some tools and ways to actually make it manifest on the page, you knowing your character. Like I think we've all seen the character sheets where you answer way too many questions about your character including their favorite color and their least favorite smell.

[JAMIE] You know, stuff that really is important. [Kim laughs]

[KARLI] Crucial information clearly that we all know about. But once we get down to it and we feel like we know our character fairly well, how do we get that to show up on the page? What are some technical tools?

[JAMIE] I have a couple of things to say on that but before we get to like the tools, since we're talking about knowing characters, another important reason to know character is consistency of character. Like you were talking about those sheets that ask you all these questions. It doesn't really matter what color your character likes. The questions that you need to have answered are, how does your character handle conflict?

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] How does your character react to this, and then to make those consistent, and if it isn't consistent, there's a reason they reacted differently. I was recently reading a book and the character was so inconsistent with their reactions, it was jarring, like two different characters smushed together. So that's another reason why it's super important to know your character before you start throwing things at them.

[KARLI] Absolutely. Thank you for bringing that up. What will linger with me is exactly their reactions, and them feeling like a real person in their consistency of character. And if they're inconsistent, there's a reason why they're inconsistent. Like a concrete, it makes sense.

[JAMIE] Yeah, there's a term sometimes you're like, “Well, that was out of character.” That's what that means. There has to be an explanation why they didn't react in character.

[KIM] It's about understanding, like, what makes them tick, like, what's going to set them off? Or what's going to soothe them? What are they going to find relaxing versus what are they going to find annoying. Like, you just, you have to understand just how they work. And yeah, it goes beyond the surface level stuff. Because yeah, it might be fun for us to be like, they like seafoam green, and there are two on the Enneagram. But, but—whereas I could argue that Enneagram would actually tell you some of these things as well—but if you're like new to crafting characters, please hear us say that while character profiles are a great tool, you don't have to spend so much time on them on such surface level things, uh, favorite food, favorite smell, that's not the nitty gritty of what makes character. What makes a person tick is not, you know, their favorite sports team. That's just not. That's just not.

[KARLI] If you like to do that for fun, then you go right ahead, just know that what's gonna move you forward in your story is exactly that. And I think that that's a great lead in to talking about goals and motivation.

[KIM] Oh, my favorite thing.

[KARLI] I know, I know you love this. Clearly, in a story we have, we have a goal, we have an end point, we have something that we are leading our characters to. A road, we are taking them down. And in order to make that feel realistic that that character that specific one, or two or three or five or twelve or whatever, are going down those that road. We—it has to make sense. And the main reason that it ends up making sense is boiled down to what their motivations and goals are.

[KIM] Yes, yes. I am huge about this, this is probably the number one thing that has changed my writing game for me is finally understanding the character should have goals. Motive, the motivations. [chuckles] And I'd also like to throw in stakes, because I think that is such a huge part of this. And honestly for me, now I when I started writing, I spent a lot of time doing character profile type things. Now I don't do them. I know, it's a little shocking, because I do them to a degree. But I don't do them nearly in depth as I used to. Because to me, the crux of the character is the goals, the motivations, and the stakes. Because if you can narrow it down to that, if you can understand your character, at least on that level, you're going to have so much material to work with. Because essentially, like we all have the end goal, sure, everybody understands we're trying to get our protagonist from point A to point B by the end of the novel. But it's more, it's more nuanced than that. Because your character should have multiple goals throughout the course of the novel. And that goal is going to change based off of whatever is happening to them, as will the motivation, as will the stakes. And as things progress and the ball gets rolling, that's when who the character really is starts to unravel for the reader and they really get to see who the character is. So if you can have that progression, like in your head, before you start like writing, it's really going to unlock a whole layer of characterization that you didn't realize was there. It's—I get so excited talking about both motivation and stakes. [Kim and Karli chuckle] Like it is the number one piece of advice that I give to writers I'm like, start with goals. Like just trust me start with the goal. Start with the motivation. Start with the stakes, and you'll be surprised how it changes.

[KARLI] What do they really want.

[KIM] Yep.

[JAMIE] Yeah, because every book is carried by a character and what they want, whether it be for good or ill, even somebody like me who's like, oh, it's all about the plot. You still have to build that around a character because that's what people show up for.

[KIM] And we all make decisions based off of what we want. And what we want can be something very small, or it can be something large, something big. But we make decisions on a daily basis based off of what we're working towards, what we want. And that is essentially what our characters are doing, in addition to reacting to the things that we're throwing at them, they're still making choices and making decisions, because of those goals. And because of the motivations, and additionally, because of the stakes, what they stand to lose if they don't achieve those goals.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[KIM] And so it's just such an important part. And that's how like, knowing how your character reacts to things, and what makes them tick really comes into play, because they are going to be faced with choices, with decisions that they have to make in pursuit of these goals. And that's where knowing your character really counts.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And that's where it gets, like it's so interwoven, they're making those decisions based on what they want. But then also knowing the character enough to know, is this interrupting with some sort of moral line they have? How far are they willing to go to get what they want? What lines are they willing to cross? What are they not willing to cross? The motivation is there, but there are other factors that also come into play. There's so many, it's just like you said, Kim, it's a recipe, how much of this and how much of that are you putting in to create this beautiful cupcake of a person?

[KARLI] Yes.

[KIM] And it gets really fun for us as the author, because when we know that they have lines that they may or may not cross, that's when we throw more antagonism or opposition at them.

[KARLI] Pushing them to that line as close as we can and holding them there.

[KIM] We get to really play with them. I mean, conflict is the true heart of any good story. And so that's, that's when you really, as the author get to kind of play and that's when you always hear authors say like, “I feel really bad that I did that to my character,” because you really do, you know them on such a personal level. And then you're like, I'm gonna do this to you.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Sorry about it.

[KIM] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Sometimes we shove them over that line.

[KIM] Yes, we do.

[JAMIE] Or off that cliff.

[KIM] Whoops.

[KARLI] My bad.

[JAMIE] And that's a negative character arc.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Or, I mean, if we do shove them across it, potentially watching them crawl back across, yeah, finding peace with having crossed it and moving forward from that.

[KIM] Or holding them back when they want to move forward for whatever reason.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah that too.

[KIM] And it's, it's fun.

[KARLI] Yeah, to kind of go back to what you were saying about, like, what makes them tick. I think that this could go back to Enneagram or Myers Briggs or any of those tests. If that's like your jam. I used to do that all the time for my characters. And I'd like, try to get in their headspace to figure out who I thought that they would be and all of that. But I think ultimately, it comes down to why.

[KIM] Yes.

[KARLI] And every time you find yourself feeling like you've answered a question about your character's motivation, if you can't answer why they react that way, this is my big thing. I'm not making progress with understanding my characters, until I am able to answer every why ad nauseam.

[KIM] Yes, it's also really important to that the goal is not something abstract. [chuckles] I think a lot of times, we're like, their goal is to be happy. [Karli chuckles] Happiness is like such an abstract concept.

[KARLI] I mean, yeah, everybody wants to be happy.

[KIM] Yeah. But it's really hard even for readers to measure that because it is such a subjective thing. And so for it to really stick, for it really to work for you in terms of plotting your story and creating characters, the goals have to be concrete, they have to be measurable. Like, for example, like Katniss in The Hunger Games, survival is obviously a big goal. But there are other goals woven within that that are more concrete, that we can measure that we as the reader can say, yes, she achieved that goal. And that will help with the motivation. A lot of time, if I'm finding that my motivation is really weak, it's because my goal is a little more abstract than it needs to be. And that tells me to go back.

[KARLI] I have that problem a lot.

[KIM] It's a good test for you.

[KARLI] I make everything more abstract that it has to be.

[all chuckle]

[JAMIE] I'm slowly dying over here. I agree with what you're saying. But the problem I'm facing my new project, the character doesn't even know what she wants.

[JAMIE] And I'm like, how do you make that work?

[KIM] Sure.

[KARLI] I get that because there are definitely people that don't know what they want. So then you have to give them something maybe smaller or more tangible or make them feel like they want something else and push them towards that. But yeah, that's a tough one.

[JAMIE] That was helpful.

[KARLI] Oh, good. [Kim chuckles]

[KIM] Yeah, that's what I would have said to like the character, you just start with something small, like something that's even probably super insignificant to the plot that they're working towards and showing what the motivation is, showing what their stakes is. 'Cause that's going to reveal to the reader who they are, a little more of their personality and then your inciting incident comes along, or you know, something else happens. And then immediately the goal changes. And because the goal changes, the motivation has to change, the stakes have to change, and then another layer comes off, and so forth and so forth.

[KARLI] Yep, absolutely. And I think that that's the thing that I am beginning to get a little irked with the writing community in a very nebulous, like amorphous, non-persona type of situation, in the sense that they're like, oh, well, it's a really, it's a plot heavy book, or it's a character driven novel. And it's like, really, you should have both, and then should both work together really well, to the point where you can't extricate one from the other—just saying. [chuckles]

[KIM] Yeah.

[KARLI] I'm gonna put that there and just take a step back.

[KIM] I said, what I said. [Kim and Karli laugh] No, I totally understand I have a really hard time with that as well, just because I'm like, Well, for me, it's more about how the story was crafted, like, because like I said, you know, a lot of people start with characters, a lot of people start with plot first, and it's about how the story is constructed. So I guess I just tell myself, that's what they mean, because I agree with you, when I'm reading a story, if I'm really into it, and it's done well, they're so interwoven, that it's really hard to say, well, the, you know, the plot was amazing. And the characters were, you know, it was more about the plot and the characters. And it's like, wait, that they're like PB&J, they go hand in hand. So I totally get what you're saying on that.

[JAMIE] I think especially anybody who is newer, should know that it doesn't matter if you start with plot, or you start with character. It's the end product after many drafts. It doesn't have to be your first draft, you can always come in later, and put more character in, you can come in later and hammer out the details of your plot. The important part is putting in the time and effort to make it so both come to a crescendo. Balancing, like you guys were talking about, it needs to be both. If you work better, starting with character, start with character. If you worked better, starting with plot start with plot.

[KIM] Yeah, it's total personal preference.

[KARLI] I'm so glad that you said that. And I'm gonna have a really hard time not going out into the weeds on that. [Kim laughs] Thank you for everything you said, I am so glad I showed up to your TED Talk.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] That'll be $85.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I think that the writing community has fallen into this trap of labels. Of oh, I'm a plotter or I'm a pantser. Or I'm a character writer. I'm a plot driven per— Like...

[JAMIE] I don't give a shit. Are you a good writer?

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Yeah, like those are fine. If that makes you excited to write then like, please, like, we are not trying to like judge or mock anybody. Ultimately, what I'm trying to get across is just all of these things are crucial to making a good story. And no one way is better than another way. Start where you're good at, like what Jamie was saying. Start and then come at the other things. And if you have to ask for help to get it to all weave together, that's why it's called a community.

[KIM] Yeah. And if we like go back to like the recipe analogy, we've all like made a recipe, right? You taste it. And at the end, you're like, um, somethin' ain't right about this, this does not quite taste—so the next time you go back and you add in a different element, or you add less salt or whatever. And then at the end, you taste it again, you're like, oh, I'm almost there. Not quite. Let me go back to the drawing board again. I mean, that's essentially what drafting is, it's about understanding that it's just kind of playing around with different elements until you get them right, and how you approach it is totally up to you. But ultimately, you want the cake to taste like cake at the end.

[KARLI] Yeah, and every cake is a little bit different with their own flavor. And honestly, we could all three probably make like, what, a carrot cake. And all three carrot cakes would come out completely different from each other. So characters, where are we? [laughs]

[JAMIE] We never made it to the part where we were talking about what it looks like on the page.

[KARLI] Yeah, let's revisit the tools conversation, what are some actual technical, tangible tools to transfer all of this stuff that we feel we know and understand about our character onto the page? Do either of you have a place that you would like to start with that?

[JAMIE] This could mean a lot of different things.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It could be nuance in dialogue, or it could be like we've talked about reaction to conflict. One of the things I thought about is like, dialogue specifically. It's nice when you can tell who's saying it without any tags just because of the way that they speak. As per example, stories where you have either somebody who speaks English as a second language, or somebody who's really formal, or a robot will tend to use less contractions, there can be so many like mild little things like that, that you could use to show that on the page all the way up to, uh, it could mean so many things. So... [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] What do we want to go into?

[KARLI] No, you're right. And thanks for pointing that out. Because it's true. There's so many different ways to go about this. I mean, why don't we just start, you brought up dialogue and the way that people talk and utilizing dialogue and thought on the page in order to convey a character can say so much about them.

[KIM] I just wanted to add to that, because I think—putting on my English teacher hat for a minute—when I teach this, we talk about how there's direct characterization and indirect characterization, when you're trying to do both of those where, like direct characterization is where you're coming right out and you're telling the reader something specific about the character that they need to know. Where indirect is stuff that reveals characterization to the reader, the speech, being one of them, their thoughts, but also their actions is a huge part of that. The things that they're doing the things that they're they're not saying basically, the things they're actually doing. Even things like how they dress, how they walk, how they stand, [chuckles] like stuff like that. And then the effect that they have on other characters, how other characters react to them can also help reveal characterization. And so for me, it's about when I’m—as far as using tools—I’m constantly paying attention to what they're saying, how they're saying it, and then what is the other characters reactions to them. And if those things are lining up the way that I need them to based off of the goal and the motivation and the stakes at that moment, and then also what's happening with the plot. It's kind of like juggling, you have to look at a couple of different balls going through the air. But it's really about just making sure that you're revealing in the moment, what you need the reader to know about that character.

[JAMIE] That's a great point. When I read, I enjoy more indirect characterization, where you're learning about the character through interactions with others, instead of an info dump on this character was born this time and they feel this way about this thing. Show don't tell. I want it released in slow increments that I can consume over time and come to my own conclusions.

[KIM] I feel like characterization has to feel organic. Because as we're reading, we want to feel like we're getting to know this person, like a real person. And that takes time, like you can't possibly reveal who this person is, in a single chapter in a single incident in, within the story, like that's why it's called an arc.

[KARLI] Nor should you. [chuckles]

[KIM] Yeah, you know, and so I think you have to like, be willing to kind of take your time and understand that it's not all going to be revealed at once.

[KARLI] Yeah, I heard a fantastic conversation about how when you're introducing new characters, you have to think about them as like, your readers are picking up your book, and they are meeting them for the first time. When you meet somebody for the first time—granted, there are some people that share their whole life story within the first five minutes. [Kim laughs] I don't know about you, but I have definitely awkwardly done that a time or two—so...

[JAMIE] I've met those people, and you politely remove yourself from their presence.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] And so Jamie couldn't—

[JAMIE] I didn’t do it quick enough with Karli.

[KARLI] I followed her. [Kim chuckles] So you have to think about it from that perspective, there is this getting to know you phase where you're going to pick up on cues and clues that you're like, oh, interesting, they don't like it when somebody says... whatever. Or they get really like tense around this other person. And a lot of the times when you're getting to know somebody new, they don't like come out and say, well, I hate that guy. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. And that also can influence who your character is. Definitely looking at them as, as that. They're a new person that your reader is getting used to, introduced to. Don't just dump all of their backstory on us right away. Because most of the time, we don't enjoy that when we meet somebody for the first time.

[KIM] I think too, as authors, we're really bad about assuming that our reader knows what we need them to know. And I think that's because in our brains, it makes perfect sense.

[KARLI] We have all of it trapped in here.

[KIM] Yes. And sometimes I think we forget, we forget to step out of it and be like, Okay, if I was just meeting this character for the first time, what would I want to know? What would I need to know? You don't need to know everything but what I need to know to be engaged enough to care about what happens next to this character. I, for one, am the type of reader if you drop me into a situation and you throw characters at me and I haven't had a chance to care about them, then I get really confused and I find myself not as engaged in what's happening. And so it is really important to make sure that you take that moment of introduction, like you were saying, like what do they need to know at this moment. What's going to help them connect with this character? 'Cause connection with the character is so important. If the reader does not connect to the character, then they don't care what happens to them. And if they don't care what happens to them, they're going to DNF your book. And we don't want that. [chuckles]

[KIM] Yeah.

[JAMIE] That's pretty specifically what we said in our DNF episode.

[all chuckle]

[KARLI] Absolutely. And it's not that you can't start with action. It's just that you have to make sure that if you're doing that, it serves a very distinct and direct purpose for getting your readers acquainted with your world and your character. And will pull them in instead of alienate them.

[KIM] Yes.

[KARLI] Which is tough to figure out if you're doing that well or not. But you know, we talk a lot about having other people read for you, so...

[KIM] I was just about to say that's what a good BETA reader is for. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yep.

[KARLI] Critique partners, beta readers, all that jazz, writing groups, utilize them. Have we mentioned that in every episode this season so far?

[KIM] I feel like that's been a common theme.

[KARLI] I feel like it's pretty close. [Jamie chuckles]

[KIM] One, I think that's why I can only speak for myself, I detest—well I detest drafting in general—but I very, very much to test first chapters for this very reason, because you are introducing the characters for the very first time. And you know, you can't be like, hey, reader, this is the main character. They're important because. Because nobody wants to read that. And even as something as simple as like, giving their name, finding an organic, creative way to drop the character's name. I don't know. Maybe I'm the only one that obsesses about that. [chuckles] But because I don't want them to be like, "Hi, my name is Katniss Everdeen." I want a more organic way for the name to be in there.

[KARLI] “My name is Katniss Everdeen. I want to protect my family. Follow along with me on this journey.” [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yeah, exactly. It's you don't want everything just like spoon fed to you in that first chapter. Because that's not any fun.

[KIM] Yeah, really, I think characterization can really be summed up and just making sure that they feel real, and making sure that the reader connects with him. Like really, like, there's so many different ways to approach characterization. Just like we could say that about drafting a novel in general, everybody has their own process, everybody does things differently. But the key is, is that a reader has to care about this character, they have to relate to the character. And the way that they do that is by crafting a character. That's— that is somebody worth investing time in and emotional energy into. And it's just all about taking the reader for a ride. That's what that character does. And if you can make them care, make them connect, or even maybe if they don't even particularly like the character, if they're intrigued enough that they want to keep reading. That is, that's the ultimate goal. And that's what you're aiming for with characterization, I think.

[KARLI] And remembering that getting your characters on your page, early days is not going to be the same as it is after you've made a few passes.

[KIM] Yeah.

[KARLI] I think a lot of times, like you're saying you hate the first chapter, because there's so much pressure on it. But we forget a lot of times, we can come back after we understand our characters better, we can revisit them and flesh them out more in future drafts. So we put a lot of pressure on, "I want my character to feel real, I want them to feel alive." And yes, we all want that. But also remember like that is not going to come to full fruition in your first draft.

[KIM] Yeah, and you just you just said it sometimes, like if you're struggling with characterization at the beginning, don't force it, like just write. Because that first draft is really you telling yourself the story anyway. Like we all think we know what the story is, you really don't until you sit down and write it, because so much happens within the process of drafting. So sometimes what you think a character is going to do and say you may have done all this characterization prep work, you're like, I know this person, and then you get in the scene and they go completely rogue, all on their own. And you have to just adjust. So like if characterization is something that you feel you're that you're weak in, don't stress about it in that first draft, like, let it play out as it will be. You can, you can always go back and adjust as needed. And sometimes that's what makes it, that's what makes it fun, is to kind of let the character come to life in their own organic way through the drafting. That exploratory writing and, you know, guess what, you're the author, if you don't like it, you can change it.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, you could write a character that you think is going to fit a certain role and then you realize that they're better suited for something else. And you revisit and then you figure out okay, well maybe there's somebody needs to need to fill that role that I originally thought or is this just a better trajectory? And so just being willing to ask yourself questions instead of getting defeated when it's not working out, which I'm one hundred percent preaching to the choir on this one. Like I just recently had like a whole existential crisis on my, all of my characters in what I'm doing. I'm like, is this is compelling enough? Are these characters compelling enough? Like, I don't even know why I'm telling their story. Like I love these characters, and I want to see them come to life on the page, but I don't know what story I'm telling with them. It's a challenge.

[KIM] I'm also going to plug—you guys did a really great episode on likable and unlikable characters. I just listened to that one the other day.

[KARLI] Aw thanks.

[KIM] So if you guys haven't listened to that episode, go back and listen to that episode as well. Because that is another thing that kind of comes into play is making your character likable or unlikable. And they did a whole episode on it, go listen to it.

[all chuckle]

[KARLI] Thank you, Kim.

[KIM] I just listened to that one the other day. So it was fresh in my mind. I think the key is just a find a way to think of it that makes sense to you. For me thinking about it, like a recipe really works like what I'm throwing in to make this a whole. And just understanding it's about connection, it's about engagement, it's about getting to know the character and growing with the character throughout the course of the story. And if you can do that, then you're gonna be okay. And if it takes you a couple drafts like, that's okay, too. And if you have to change something that's fine. Like, that is the beauty of being the author is that you get to mold and change and add new ingredients or take them away as you go. And in the end, hopefully, you have a really great carrot cake. When it comes to characterization, it's very important to not overlook your side characters and your antagonist because I think so often we only focus on the protagonist. And it's really important that everybody has an arc. Like your side characters even can't just be utensils, or accessories, you know, to the main—

[KARLI] Accessories for eating the carrot cake. [Kim chuckles] Now I want cake. It's a problem. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] And it's super important to have contrasting characters. If all of your characters are reading the same, that's super boring. There has to be multiple fleshed out characters to make the world seem real. You're making the character seem real, and having different types of people will make your world more realistic.

[KARLI] And I think that that goes into play with the separating your writer voice from your character voice. As writers, I think a lot of times when we wind up writing characters that all feel the same or we wind up throwing like a hyper cliched version of plucky sidekick or the antagonist that's like super villainous, and mwahaha. And if you aren't able to look at the world objectively and recognize that even similar people respond to things differently. And being able to look at that in a more like multifaceted way. Like, listen, go somewhere public and just eavesdrop. [Kim chuckles] It’s just, I'm a big fan of eavesdropping. I am always dropping the eaves, always. Because you get really interesting feedback on the different ways that people react to the same conversation. So just just throwing that out there. If you're having a difficult time where everybody's feeling the same. It could simply be that you as a writer need a little bit more like broadening of your own horizons and looking at the way that people see things. In, in wrapping up. I don't know, I just feel like Kim said it so much better. And I would just be repeating myself.

[JAMIE] I'm like, I don't know what else I would say about it that Kim hasn't put so well.

[KARLI] I yeah, I have I have nothing else to say. Kim, do you have a two-cent recommendation for us for this week?

[KIM] I do. It's a bit goofy.

[KARLI] I love goofy.

[KIM] I think you guys will be interested in this. So and it kind of go it goes with characterization. So I have a theater background. So maybe that's why this appeals to me. I did theater all through high school and college. I also had a brief stint on YouTube, as a lot of you know. And while I no longer have a YouTube, I do have an active TikTok account. And that app is so much fun. It is the biggest time suck ever, but I love it. But, sometimes what I will do when I'm working on a character and I'm going for a particular feeling or I'm trying to get to know that character is I will pull up TikTok and look for duets, where people are acting out certain scenes for movies or shows that kind of invoke that same feeling or same personality or whatever. And I will actually like act out those scenes with those people to kind of get a feel for the character or whatever emotion that I'm going for. It just helps me like really get in the zone. Sometimes I post them, sometimes I don't, but sometimes it's really fun to put yourself like in the shoes of the character and pretend that you are that character. And I find that a really fun way to do character research and to kind of get to know character. So if you're like me and you like that sort of thing, TikTok is a really fantastic place to get inspiration and there's so many duets. People just doing all sorts of duets where they're acting out scenes from things and it's a lot of fun. So, there you go.

[JAMIE] That’s cool.

[KARLI] That's a really fun way to look at it. I do really love TokTok for the sketch, like comedy or things like that. So I could see that being a really fun time.

[KIM] It's silly. I—it is ridiculous, but it is fun. [chuckles] And you know, take your joy where you find it.

[KARLI] Nothing wrong with silly or goofy.

[JAMIE] That thought reminds me of like, you mentioned Karli, like taking Enneagram or Myers Briggs tests and answering the questions as if it's that character. There's really just putting yourself in that character's mindset, a similar concept.

[KARLI] Like method acting, is that what you call that?

[KIM] Yeah.

[KARLI] Thank you for joining us, Kim. We love having you here and are really grateful that you took time out of your really busy schedule for us. So…

[JAMIE] Appreciate it.

[KIM] Well, thank you so much for having me. I absolutely love chatting story with you. And I would love to come back anytime you'll have me.

[KARLI]  Kim, we can find you on Instagram and TikTok @kimwritesbooks.

[KIM] Yes. Yeah.

[KARLI] Awesome. And at your website, kimchance.com.

[KIM] Yes, ma'am.

[KARLI] People can find your books via your website, I’m assuming, also Amazon and other major sellers.

[KIM] Yeah, I mean, my books are a bit old now. But you can find them pretty much everywhere libraries, Barnes and Noble, Amazon.

[KARLI] No one's throwing shade at old books.

[KIM] But I got some new stuff in the works hopefully. And yeah, you can find me. My websites probably the number one stop for all things Kim Chance. My books, where to buy them, information about me, etc. But yeah, kimwritesbooks on all social media platforms. So come hang out with me.

[JAMIE] Thank you so much for being here. I didn't get to say thank you so much. [all chuckle] Thank you so much.

[KIM] Thank you so much for having me.

[KARLI] You can find us @theactbreak_podcast on Instagram, @theactbreak_ on Twitter. All of our information is there and on our website at scifiohmy.com/podcast. We have transcripts and backlogs and newsletters and all the good stuff. Thank you so much for listening.

[JAMIE] Talk to you later, internet friends.

[KIM] Bye!