S2 Ep.14 Forced to Read

Forced to Read - Transcript

[JAMIE] The whole concept of this week's episode was good in theory. [Karli chuckles] And but you were like, much nicer to me than I was to you.

[KARLI] Wait, what?

[JAMIE] You picked a better book than me.

[KARLI] Oh. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Well, I'm saying you picked a less challenging book.

[KARLI] I was like, let's have let's just do like something fun and light hearted. And Jamie's like, here, have a book... [laughing] It's gonna give you an existential crisis. It's fine. This is totally fine.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and I probably should have known that because I don't think there's a single book by that author. That won't [laughing] give you an existential crisis. It's gonna be a real interesting day.

[KARLI] True test of friendship right here. We, we have really decided to put our friendship to the test this season with all of the episodes that we have already released, and some ones that are coming up that are like, what are we doing here?

[JAMIE] That's a little foreshadowing about how you felt about the book, you had to read. [LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] No, it's more of like, what are you going to think about what I think about the book.

[JAMIE] Oooh.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Doo doo doo doo doo do! That was our intro.

[KARLI] I like it. Is it new?

[JAMIE] Yeah, it is. No, I made it myself.

[KARLI] [chuckling] I can tell.

[JAMIE] [chuckling] Which is funny, because I didn't even make that myself. It's very popular sound.

[KARLI] [laughing] I know.

[JAMIE] This is a circus. [Karli laughs] All right. Anyway, sorry. Sorry. That was all.

[KARLI] That was all. [laughing] Jamie's introduction.

[JAMIE] This will cut together and it'll be great. It'd be good together. Let me do again. Let me do it again.

[KARLI] Okay.

[JAMIE] Alright. [clears throat] I want to say that I feel like this has always been our weakest and most awkward point is like the welcome and introduction because somebody told us that it was really important that we tell you who we are and what we do. [laughs]

[KARLI] You don't have to, you can just say "I'm Jamie.”

[JAMIE] I am Jamie.

[KARLI] No, I'm, I'm Jamie.

[JAMIE] I don't know, Karli. [laughs]

[KARLI] You don't know. You don't know. That's fine.

[JAMIE] Karli, help me!

[KARLI] As proof of Jamie's existential crisis, she doesn't know who she is anymore.

[JAMIE] Accurate.

[KARLI] I'm Karli. And I reject existential crises.

[JAMIE] I love that for you. [both laugh] Do that.

[KARLI] I refuse to have any more.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Okay.

[KARLI] All done.

[JAMIE] I like that.

[KARLI] I'm all full up.

[JAMIE] That's the energy we all need in our lives. I'm really making like, all of my struggles are self made right now. And when I say that, I mean editing this episode.

[KARLI] [chuckles] It was your idea.

[JAMIE] I am a problem. This week, we are doing what we've titled forced to read in which both of us chose a book for the other to read. Our only stipulations were it had to have been something they had not read before, and it had to be fairly short.

[KARLI] Which clearly was a problem for me.

[JAMIE] Yeah, in retrospect, maybe we should have had a few more stipulations. But. [Karli laughs] And so the books that were chosen were...

[KARLI] The Westing Game by Ellen Raskin.

[JAMIE] Is what I was slated to read. And then...

[KARLI] Jamie forced me to read...

[JAMIE] Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

[KARLI] Just some light Saturday reading.

[JAMIE] I don't know if you could get—I mean, they're pretty opposite books. Like opposite end of the spectrum.

[KARLI] I don't know we could have gone any different than we did.

[JAMIE] I don't think we could have. I will say that one of the reasons why I have chosen this book, is because Karli had previously failed to read it. [laughs]

[KARLI] I did. I promised to read it. Last... It was years ago.

[JAMIE] Two years. [laughs]

[KARLI] Two years ago now. We had decided as critique partners to read a few books that the other had chosen that were and we felt either represented us or something that we really enjoyed that influenced us.

[JAMIE] Something that did something narratively or stylistically, that we admired or hoped to accomplish in our own work.

[KARLI] That. Jamie read all the books I gave to her, which I mean, I did try to not give her epic door stoppers.

[JAMIE] There was one I did not read.

[KARLI] Oh, okay. Maybe I should just pick a new book in replacement.

[JAMIE] You're gonna pick that Joe Abercrombie book aren't you. I just know it.

[KARLI] I will not force you to read Joe Abercrombie.

[JAMIE] It's just that there's too many of them. You know how I feel about series.

[KARLI] I know. Anyways, how did you feel about the book that I asked you to read?

[JAMIE] Yeah. [chuckles] The Westing Game by Ellen Raskin, published in 1978, is a middle grade... mystery? I guess you might call it. It is from the classic era of why is this a middle grade?

[KARLI] [laughs] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Because the idea of a middle grader now reading this book is like, I don't know if they would understand most of what's going on. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's, it's a murder mystery. And it definitely is old enough that there are concepts in there that no middle grader would have heard of before. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] It's really interesting. I mean, the most notorious one is Narnia, where it's middle grade, but it is kind of a higher thing to grasp. My overall opinion was it was good. I have so many feelings. It's it's this is much more of a chat it out episode, I started reading it. And I usually am reading like, two, three books, all at the same time. Not simultaneously. But I mean, [laughing] I'm i— I'm working my way through three books at any given time. And I started this, and I instantly went, I am going to need to not read anything and just read this. Because there's like, a dozen characters.

[KARLI] There's sixteen.

[JAMIE] There's so many characters, [Karli chuckles] and keeping track of them was a job and in itself.

[KARLI] Because the POV shift, there's no like, she shifts between all of them so quickly, there...

[JAMIE] Well, it's just an omnipresent third person narration, which that wasn't so much the problem, it was like, just keeping track of like if they referenced somebody connecting that back to the right character. And she did do a good job of trying to give them each their own quirk or trait that you could attach to that. Eventually, that was not a problem. But initially, it's not like you learn about them slowly. You get them all thrown at you all at once.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And that's like in a kind of whodunit, mystery. That's how it goes. Yeah. But it was funny to be like, and this was supposed to be for middle graders. [laughs]

[KARLI] I read it as a middle grader too. And like, I don't know, for whatever reason, it worked for me. And it clicked. And I—yeah, but I could definitely see where it might be a lot.

[JAMIE] Yeah. And then the other things that stand out to me about this book are I'm cool with suspended belief. That's absolutely part of reading fiction. But it was just so funny to me... One of the characters is a child. I think they say that she's like—

[KARLI] I think Turtle's like twelve or something.

[JAMIE] But yeah, Turtle's like twelve. She's really into the stock market. [laughs]

[KARLI] [laughs] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Like, which I think is like a funny quirk. But I was like, I don't understand why this was like, a feasible solution. [both laugh] So that was kind of funny. But I really like the whole vibe created with, it's this building full of people. They've all been kind of roped into this adventure-ish. And basically, they have to like discover... oh spoilers. Who's murdered this wealthy guy?

[KARLI] This wealthy business mogul?

[JAMIE] Yes. Who is going to leave his fortune to whoever solves his murder, right? And then they are given clues. And you know, as a reader, you have the advantage of seeing all of the clues.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So those quickly—

[KARLI] All of the ones except for the ones that are purposefully left out until the very end so that you can't figure it out yourself.

[JAMIE] Even though those technically as a writer, I'm like, those should all be there. They should just be hidden. But it was interesting the way so they're in teams like teams of two, these sixteen people or whatever. And they all get random clues. And the way a bunch of the characters decided to interpret their clues was so random. That I just like I'm like, I don't understand how we've jumped to this conclusion. [both chuckle] Or why we think it's like a super great idea. Like the one where they're like maybe there's a twin [Karli laughs] and then keep on trying to randomly have casually during this party like find out if somebody has a twin was very awkward.

[KARLI] It is so awkward. But that character is supposed to be awkward.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] So it was very in character.

[JAMIE] That was in character. But it also didn't make no sense. And it's not the It made no sense. As it was written, it just made no sense for like, the plot the plot, yeah, there was like one person was like, maybe there's a twin and then like turtles, it means the stock market. [Karli laughs] And I was just like, I don't understand how these people are reaching these conclusions. That was kind of the big thing that stood out to me.

[KARLI] I mean, obviously, I have like a very soft spot for it, because I have read it so many times from my childhood. So there's a whole thing with that. But as an adult, I have gone back to it and been like, these people are absolutely nuts. And I can look at it objectively, and—but there is a part of me that's just like, well, yeah, it's like, it's a building full of super quirky people. And honestly, I keep popping into my head about like, Only Murders in the Building. And I just, it's a cozy mystery full of really weird people doing goofy things. And I can see where though, the—the suspension of belief is just, it's just a little too far.

[JAMIE] Yeah, there's still things in it that I'm like, why this? Like, why was the sister planting bombs? [Karli laughs] Like, she was blowing crap up and like, harmed people. And they were like, she was just quirky. Like, it didn't make a lot of sense.

[KARLI] She was having a hard time. Okay, her charmed life was too much.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] And so she turns to bomb making. [laughing] You know, as we do.

[JAMIE] Okay, yeah, she sent multiple people in the hospital, including herself and almost blew her [laughing] sister's face off.

[KARLI] It's fine. Just a casual bombing, okay? [laughing]

[JAMIE] Like, I don't get it. And then the end. Basically, we weren't actually given the clues to try and unravel the mystery. They were purposefully omitted, then the mystery that we thought was happening was actually something else, which I guess is sort of they're trying to make it like a plot twist. But it mostly felt to me like a cop out of like, figure out this thing. Oh, there's no way to figure it out. Because it didn't really happen. Also, we didn't give you all the information to let you know what happened.

[KARLI] I think my biggest gripe with it, having like thought about it objectively, especially trying like knowing that you were going to read it and you were going to notice things that I am willing to just let go because it's one of my favorite books. And I definitely was like, yeah, had I read this older, I would have been very frustrated by the idea that I could not solve the mystery, because all the clues weren't given to me as the reader. And that is the pitch on the back of the book is that you are one of the people that could potentially figure it out. So it's kind of misleading, kind of—it's very misleading. In that sense. And I could see as a reader being very frustrated by that. If I went into it later.

[JAMIE] I can see where it's very much a book where you're like, you have to read it at a certain time to have that connection. It's a lot like if you have never seen The Lord of the Rings, and you watch it now. Sometimes if you don't catch something at a certain point in your life, it's never gonna connect the same way it did with a lot of other people. Overall, I think it was a fine book. I wouldn't I'm not mad I read it. [Karli laughs] I will say it's one of the only books I ever kept notes about, but I was like, Oh, I'm gonna unravel the mystery. And then I'm like, Okay, this obviously is going to be this. And then they're like, oh, yeah, here's this extra thing that we didn't tell you about. Like, okay.

[KARLI] Well, I mean, the extra thing at the end they do for—it is foreshadowed.

[JAMIE] Which things are you talking about?

[KARLI] The fact that he wasn't actually dead?

[JAMIE] Yeah, they foreshadow that, I was thinking that he wasn't dead, probably like, two thirds in the way. I'm like, I don't think he's dead. The big thing that bugged me though, is that there was no explanation why he did that. Why? Why did he choose to do that?

[KARLI] It's well, I mean—

[JAMIE] It was just, it was, it purely felt like he did it because he's rich and eccentric.

[KARLI] Yes. And that, I mean, in that is a very big thing for for that he is a rich, eccentric, and he likes to play games.

[JAMIE] I mean, at least he didn't go full Squid Game. [Karli laughs] But yeah, I was like...

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Rich eccentric people. [laughing] Stupid.

[KARLI] Fair, totally fair. I definitely can see all of your your, your quibbles about it, but I'm glad you read it. And it's just one of my favorite quirky goofy things

[JAMIE] I did enjoy like character arcs of like these people who are all strangers and kind of resented each other all for different reasons, kind of grew a little bit closer together. And that very much like enforces that, like, the more you talk to somebody, the more you can connect, and the more you sympathize and have more compassion, because you will look at them as real people.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So that she did a good job of that. And like, there was very stark contrast between the beginning of the story and end of the story and how everybody viewed each other and interacted. So that was really good. That was done very well.

[KARLI] Yeah, I really enjoyed that as well.

[JAMIE] Now we have to go to like a much deeper, weirder...

[KARLI] More existential place.

[JAMIE] Yeah, we really do because Kurt Vonnegut Jr. Doesn't really not do existential. [chuckles] So I was not the kindest to Karli as far as picking a book to chat about. And it's like, you pretty much know right away if it's for you, or if it's not. [Karli laughs] So what did you think?

[KARLI] So I knew pretty much immediately it wasn't going to be for me. I definitely can see and appreciate what he's going for, what he's trying to do. I mean, obviously, it is a satire about people, the truth and lies in religion and science and in the hands of people who are dumber than they realize, who they think that they're wildly intellectual, or they are wildly intellectual, but people just make stupid choices. And then, you know, it's about the irony of science being meant to help people but then ultimately destroying us. And—so I totally get what he's going for. And I love a good satire. But I think his delivery, the style of his particular brand of satire, just doesn't land for me. Just just missed the mark for me. I found it a little more, a little too um—I got it in the first chapter. And then he kept going, I was like, why do we need a whole book?

[JAMIE] Like he kept he kept his style throughout? And you're like, ehh. [laughs]

[KARLI] [laughs] No, no, I don't mean that. I mean, I mean, yes, obviously, he kept his style throughout, because he is a good writer for what he's doing. It's just, I got the point of the satire in the first chapter. And so I didn't need to reach the full conclusion. Like, I'm like, well, yeah, clearly everybody's going to die. And the world is, you know, life is futile. I get it. I don't need to read the entire book to be reminded of the futility of life over and over again. [laughs]

[JAMIE] And yeah, he does do like the theme is pretty clear. I think it's interesting, because this one in particular, none of Kurt Vonnegut's books are like one thing. It's a satire on science. It's a commentary on religion. But then it's also a commentary on like, if religion brings people comfort... Shouldn't that be okay? If somebody is comforted by their belief system, should we really like fault them for that?

[KARLI] Right? Why not let them have it? I'm glad you brought that up, because that is something I did notice as well. And like you said, it is not just one thing. I mean, yes, he had a larger overarching theme. But he had subtleties throughout it that were trying to get people to question their perception. Even though he is satirizing religion, he is also making very distinctive points that, you know, if life is futile, why shouldn't we find things that comfort us along the way, and human connection and all of those things, so.

[JAMIE] If I had a thought further about it, I'm like, I maybe don't want to discuss Kurt Vonnegut, because it's like, [chuckles] there's way too much to discuss when it comes to Kurt Vonnegut, because while I enjoy the books that I have read from him, that's not me saying like, I agree with everything or that I disagree with— It's just a very, I enjoy it, because it's so thought provoking. Yeah, it really makes you think about a lot of different aspects or perspectives.

[KARLI] Right.

[JAMIE] It's a whole thing.

[KARLI] Yeah. And I definitely can see why people enjoy reading him for that purpose. I just—how do I want to say this without coming across like a pompous ass?

[JAMIE] People who read Kurt Vonnegut are pompous. So I don't— [laughs]

[KARLI] Obviously, I this is my first Vonnegut. So I'm like, kind of just trying to get a better picture of like, who he was as a writer, et cetera, et cetera. So in the googling of Vonnegut, I definitely noticed a running theme of like, well, if you don't like Vonnegut, you don't get Vonnegut and I'm like, listen, I get Vonnegut, I just don't care for it. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Yeah, yeah, that's a real thing that can happen.

[KARLI] It is a real thing, it can happen. And we can have a discussion about a book that we don't like without being pompous and rude about it. Or allowing people to have a difference of opinion. I was talking to the mechanic about it a little bit. And he's like, "Well, it's a lot like stand up comedy. Not every comic is for everybody."

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] There's people who find that person super funny, and plenty of people who don't. And I think it's kind of follows along those same lines, when you find an author that you really like, they're going to really connect with some people, and they're really not with others. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Especially because his stuff is so stylistic. It can be like a multitude of factors. It could be when you read it, all of our opinions are informed by our own life experiences.

[KARLI] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] I will say I'm a little surprised because it's so philosophical, that I thought that you'd be more interested in because you're always mentioning how much you like philosophy. But that makes sense. Like you were saying, where it's like you got it at the beginning, but it was maybe something you didn't want to focus on, on the theme of the this particular novel.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] Even though most of his novels are similarly themed of, you know, how horrible humanity is. [laughing]

[KARLI] [laughs] Yeah.

[JAMIE] But that's very much informed by the his, his experiences.

[KARLI] Personal experiences. Absolutely. Like you said, I do really like philosophy. And I think because I like philosophy, I think about all of these kinds of things a lot. So I don't necessarily want to read a whole book about it, especially when it's repeating itself. It's similar back to what I thought of Dune. I get it, I see why so many people like it, I respect their choice in it. But if I'm gonna read philosophy, I want to read a philosophy book where I'm hearing about different kinds of theories and ideas.

[JAMIE] I was going to ask what philosophy books like that you recommend? And like, turn to.

[KARLI] I haven't in years. So I mean, it's like I can't, I can't really like, here's my suggestion. I enjoyed it when I was studying it in college, a lot. And I am not opposed to having philosophical discussions about life and learning more about different philosophers and what they've got going on. And I do think that in his right, Vonnegut is a philosopher. He's just the, the delivery system of a lot of authors from that era is not for me. I just don't care for their approach, because it feels heavy handed. And I feel like I'm being talked down to that. I mean, that I think is just a personal reaction from my own experience. I don't think that they're purposefully trying to do that. Or if they—I don't know, there's plenty of people who don't think that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I think it's that like, we all have our own reactions to different things.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] Because when I read Vonnegut, I feel much more like a wink, wink, nudge, nudge, kind of feeling like we're both in on the joke.

[KARLI] Mmm. Yeah. I think it's interesting to have these kinds of conversations because of that very reason. Different people have different reactions to it. And you saying that, I totally get why you feel that way. Because I think that that is what he's trying to provoke in people, or evoke in people. But it just didn't work for me.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it just didn't land.

[KARLI] It didn't have that same effect. This whole conversation is a good way to look at one having discussions about something that somebody else likes that you don't, and having a respectful discussion about it. And also as writers, being willing to continue on with our work, knowing full well that there are going to be people who don't like it, and being okay with that.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] And writing it anyways. Because you are going there are going to be people who do like it.

[JAMIE] Yeah. And I think that that that's like a maturity thing that comes over time where you're like, not everybody's gonna like the same things. And even people who you're really close to aren't gonna like the same things as you.

[KARLI] Yeah. Friends can like different things and still be friends.

[JAMIE] Yeah. I have read quite a few Vonnegut, but I'm like, that's the first thing I say to people. He's not for everybody. I immediately know that of the people I know, I would imagine that maybe 1% of those people might like Vonnegut. It's a very acquired taste. It's very niche. I was not kind to Carly when I was like, here's this book and you have to read. You're required to finish it.

[KARLI] [laughs] Required reading. I feel like I'm back in school. Am I—do I have to give a book report too?

[JAMIE] Yes. It's gotta be essay form.

[KARLI] I feel like my notes were on it were a book report,

[JAMIE] Which is so funny because I, like, I took no notes on the book you gave me. [laughs]

[KARLI] Well you said you kept some.

[JAMIE] I was trying to solve the mystery but that was it. [laughs]

[KARLI] Oh okay, that was it, that's fine. Well, you remember your thoughts a little bit better [chuckles] your your brain is a little bit more organized and it's filing system. Mine is very much representative of what my office looks like on a regular basis, which is random stacks and piles everywhere with like assorted fruit snack wrappers mixed in.

[JAMIE] That is funny, because my desk is almost always completely clear. [laughs] There's a metaphor in here somewhere. [both laugh] It's just part of—

[KARLI] Well you have, you have a very organized system, and none of it needs to be on your desk so that you have a visually clear space so that you can—

[JAMIE] I am one of those people are like if things are cluttered, I get anxious. Like it just gives me more anxiety.

[KARLI] I mean, I do too, but I don't learn. So... [laughs]

[JAMIE] We all make choices.

[KARLI] There's a metaphor in there too. [both laugh]

[JAMIE] Well, I really appreciate that you read that whole book and you kept notes and you're willing to discuss, but yeah, definitely a very stylistic. What did I say is it was published in like 1963. It's definitely one of those. I mean, as much as Kurt Vonnegut is so different, not only in his writing, but also in his views of the world than so many of the other white guys [both chuckle] from his time that wrote science fiction books. Very different, but he's also—

[KARLI] He is, he is also still a product of his time. Yeah. And we could go into like, what was going on in history. Because, you know, me, I totally like, was like, oh, well, yeah. Because when he was writing this, and—

[JAMIE] Yeah, and every single one of his stories are very informed by the fact that he was present for the bombing of Dresden. I mean, I don't think I've read a single book that doesn't reflect that in his work.

[KARLI] Absolutely. And that is another like, as writers, we use our writing to process our emotions and traumas and all of these things. And so those things creep in, even if we're not trying to, I just think he was trying to.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] So yeah, well, I mean, and thank you for reading my book, too. I definitely gave it to you knowing full well, that it probably wasn't going to land for you the same that it did for me. But I still wanted you to read it, because I thought it was quirky and a good time.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] But I definitely was thinking about it. And I was going back in my mind, like trying and looking at my shelf. And I'm like, What would I have her read, else? Because every shorter book that I've read that I love, you've read too. [Jamie chuckles] I don't read shorter books. So I mean, I actually do way more now than I ever used to. I used to, like exclusively read door stoppers. But all of the short books that I've read, either you recommended to me or I recommended to you so I'm like that was it. That was my last short book [both laugh] that I had.

[JAMIE] I feel exactly the same, because if you hadn't already read it, I would have given you Red Dwarf.

[KARLI] Oh, oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] Because that is much more like, oh, I want to do this.

[KARLI] Right, much more of what you're trying to do with your writing, closer.

[JAMIE] But you've already read all the Red Dwarf, so I had to pick something else. [laughs] So the question would become say, it doesn't have to be super short, and say, I'm not going to choose something that's painful for you. One, would you would you consider doing this again?

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] Nobody can see you nodding.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I know I realized it as I was doing it. Yes, I definitely would consider doing this again. I would have to have more notice to be thinking about trying to find a book for you that wouldn't be some massive undertaking.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Because otherwise, I'm going to be like here. Joe Abercrombie, and his like sixteen books. [Jamie laughs] It's fine. This is not a time commitment.

[JAMIE] Yeah, Karli be like, well, you can either read The Blade Itself, or The Wheel of Time. [Karli laughs] It's up to you. Like, thanks. Thanks for that.

[KARLI] Thanks for nothing.

[JAMIE] Just I just want you to read Recursion. I mean…

[KARLI] Oh, yeah. Next time.

[JAMIE] Next time. We say as if there will be a next time. We'll see about that. Since you did have time to think about this, do you have a two-cent recommendation for us this week?

[KARLI] I do. I am actually going to recommend the first book in a series that I have yet to finish, but I love the first one. It's The Broken Earth series, but the first book is The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin. It is fantastic. And it is also definitely a commentary on society. But it's fantasy.

[JAMIE] I just received that on my Libby app.

[KARLI] Yay.

[JAMIE] As long as cuz I can finish the other three books I'm reading and get to it before that lapses, I'll be able to get on that train with ya.

[KARLI] Awesome.

[JAMIE] Thanks, Karli.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] And thank you everyone for listening. Thanks for listening, follow and subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, whatever podcast thing you use. Pocket Casts. There's like a bunch that I don't even know about because I'm an old lady. A transcript can be found at our website at scifiohmy.coms/podcast. And you can find us on social media @theactbreak_podcast on Instagram, and @theactbreak_ on twitter. Links to all that can also be found in our Instagram bio. Thanks for listening, everybody.

[KARLI] Talk to you later, internet friends.

[JAMIE] Did I forget something?

[KARLI] I don't think so.

[JAMIE] [laughing] Okay.