S2 Ep.15 Critique Partner Talk with Kim Chance and Megan Lacroix

CP Real Talk - Transcript

[JAMIE] I'm really excited about today because today we get guests who have a similar relationship that we have. They are critique partners, but they seem from the outside to be a perkier, less dead inside version of us. [laughs]

[KARLI] [laughing] They do, they do.

[JAMIE] So I really can't wait to take in that energy and hear more about their dynamic because... it just feels so life giving.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Not that we don't give each other [laughing] energy and life. It's just a different sort.

[KARLI] Yeah, I feel like they have a more hopeful and optimistic—it's like a shimmery sheen that they have to them.

[JAMIE] Just this positive energy.

[KARLI] Mhmm. Ours is a little more murky.

[JAMIE] 'Cause there's a lot of different types of creative energy, positive, creative energy, destructive creative energy. [both laugh] I'm not saying I know what ours is. I just don't necessarily think it's like bright and shiny. [laughing]

[KARLI] That is the fairest assessment I've ever heard.

[JAMIE] To an outside element, t might even seem hostile. [laughing]

[KARLI] It's a hostile work environment y'all.

[JAMIE] I mean, you know. [both chuckle] Yeah, bringing all that hostile energy.

[KARLI] That's right.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to the ACT break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Welcome back to The Act Break, the podcast that fills your ears with potentially useful nonsense. I'm Jamie. And...

[KARLI] I’m Karli.

[JAMIE] Today we have a double dose of guests. Two women that have also been each other's critique partners for years, Kim Chance and Megan Lacroix. Some listeners might know Kim from being in past episodes. She's been very kind in joining us multiple times. But for anyone that this is their first time listening, Kim Chance is a young adult contemporary and fantasy author and freelance editor. And for the first time ever, we are happy to welcome writer well-versed author interviewer and previous Pitch Wars mentor, Megan Lacroix. Welcome ladies.

[KIM] Thank you. Happy to be here.

[MEGAN] Thank you.

[JAMIE] And if any of that was incorrect, just let me know [laughing] and I'll change it.

[KIM] That was really official sounding, Jamie, I liked it.

[JAMIE] I try. I try real hard. Obviously, I took like four takes of everything [Kim and Karli chuckle] but but the important part is that the information I'm giving about you is correct.

[MEGAN] It's called revision. [all chuckle]

[JAMIE] I don't put anything out there into the world without first editing it, and that includes everything out of my mouth. [all chuckling] Hey guys.

[KARLI] Welcome, yay.

[KIM] Hi!

[JAMIE] It's so fantastic to have another set of critique partners with us. Because that's pretty much I feel like the main thing people know is that me and Karli, are critique partners. Thank you so much for being here, because it'd be nice to get somebody else's take on this type of relationship. So how did you meet? How do you know each other?

[KIM] Take it away, Megan.

[MEGAN] All right, here we go. So we were doing the math recently. And I think we're going on six years. So it feels much longer than that.

[KIM] Feels like forever. [chuckles]

[MEGAN] I know I like I now measure my life and like, pre-Kim, post-Kim... not post, but you know.

[KIM] I was like, wait a minute, post-Kim?

[KARLI] Woah woah woah.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Post Kim's introduction.

[MEGAN] Yeah, so it was about six years ago, or going on six years, we had both entered into a contest called Pitch Wars, which is now no longer a thing.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[MEGAN] But back in the day was quite the thing. We kind of like got to talking a little bit in the hashtag threads. Nothing serious. I think we'd emailed back and forth a few times because I had watched Kim's YouTube channel and so I was like, super excited for her when she got her agent and everything like that. I think that was a little after the contest.

[KIM] Shortly after. Yeah.

[MEGAN] Yeah, it was very, very casual. Like it was like enough that I was like, oh, I like her. Like I think she's a cool person. But I wasn't like chasing her down or anything. And then I got chosen to participate in the contest. And it didn't quite work out for me just because I had a lot of life stuff happening at the same time. So I kind of had to back away from finishing it. This would have happened in the summer. So like around the time, Christmas time, I reached out because at that point, I was like I just want to form like some serious critique partner relationships. I had had more like beta reader type relationships prior but nothing that was like a solid go to person. And so I dm-ed Kim and I was like listen, like—I think it gave you a basic pitch of my book.

[KIM] You did.

[MEGAN] Because we are both writing about witches at the time.

[KIM] Yep. Yep.

[MEGAN] And I was like, I think we might actually be In a good match. Would you be open to trading? I think we did a chapter maybe twenty pages.

[KIM] It wasn't a lot. Yeah, it was just a little chunk.

[MEGAN] It was small. And I was like, if you're open to it, we could critique each other's work, see if we jive with each other style, or even the writing, because, you know, I want someone who is interested to read more. And I'm not, I don't want to say 100%, but I'm, I'm not really offended if someone's like, yeah, it's not really my cup of tea. Like, you're just not my reader, you know. So I have—

[KIM] It's subjective.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[MEGAN] And I was just like, well, if we get along with this, maybe we can keep going. And so we both critiqued and sent pages back. And I think we were both like, I want to keep reading more. Kim was in a different stage than I was. But I really responded—

[KIM] Our styles were, yeah, our styles were were very different. But there was still enough...

[MEGAN] A common thread.

[KIM] We had in common. Yeah, that we really kind of connected with.

[KARLI] Nice.

[MEGAN] We both had our niches in terms of like, the things we looked for, like Kim is really good at like, emotion, I am not. [laughter] And I feel like I am good at things that were complimenting her work, too. We were able to kind of stretch our writer brains on each other's work, and then really obviously took off after that.

[KIM] The rest, they say is history. [laughter]

[MEGAN] Then we became codependent. [laughter] We basically live off each other.

[KIM] We're symbiotic at this point. [laughter]

[MEGAN] It's a symbiotic relationship, we cannot survive without the other. At first, it was a work friendship, like, you know, you're at work and you've got like your work buddies. And you're like, yeah, you're cool. We talk about work. And that's it. And then it slowly turned into like, oh, all of a sudden, I'm going to brunch with this person and they know my kids.

[KIM] I do.

[JAMIE] To start though, it seems like that was a very intentional relationship that you guys kind of went into building you like—

[MEGAN] Oh i wooed her I wooed her. [laughter]

[JAMIE] There was intent.

[MEGAN] I think there's a spark and she was like, I'm not sure, but then she fell under my spell.

[KARLI] I love it. It's like, their eyes connected over Twitter hashtags.

[KIM] It's like dating!

[MEGAN] It's so much like dating.

[KIM] Mhmm.

[MEGAN] So much like dating.

[JAMIE] Sometimes you're gonna have to go after this relationship with that intention. Knowing that you might jive. You might not jive. I'm so glad you guys found each other. And have become one. [laughter]

[MEGAN] Might have to kiss a few frogs.

[KIM] Yeah.

[MEGAN] Before you find your prince or princess charming. Yes.

[KIM] Oh, I'm your Prince Charming? That makes my day! [laughter]

[MEGAN] You are. I know. You know it, you know it.

[KIM] I know. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] So six years? That's a good, nice, long time.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Do you have multiple critique partners? Or pretty much are you two it and everybody else falls under alpha reader, beta reader-ish?

[KIM] We have another critique partner that we both work with. And then I also I think we both have kind of our set of like alpha readers that we read. But I think me and Megan's critique partner relationship at this point has morphed into something that is beyond just being critique partners. And so I think because of that our critique partner relationship, so to speak, isn't as the norm—isn't as normal—as they normally are I guess, because we are very, very close. Like we have obviously—it started off just like she said—kind of a working partnership to people with a common goal and a shared passion. And now, like, we are best friends, we talk every day like I would literally will my children to her if I had to, you know, like, it's beyond that. And so, the relationship I have with my other critique partner with my beta readers is completely different than the one I have with Megan because it's just, it's a whole different level [laughing] is what I'm saying.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I don't feel like that's a normal critique partner relationship. It just so happens that me and Karli's critique partner relationship is also like that. Like, next level, text every day, at least to be like, are you, are you alive over there?

[MEGAN] Uh, we have passwords to each other’s—

[KIM] Social media accounts.

[MEGAN] Accounts. I would lock her out when she would tell me to.

[JAMIE] I'm just saying, I'm not on my own HBO Max account. [laughter]

[MEGAN] Neither am I.

[JAMIE] And they're gonna shut us down now.

[KARLI] Because Netflix is listening.

[JAMIE] The Singularity is always listening.

[KIM] [ad reading voice] This episode is sponsored by HBO Max. [laughter]

[JAMIE] So me and Karli have been trying to exchange work a little more often than we have in the past. And I was wondering how often would you say that you guys exchange work, and what does it look like? Are you guys sending works in progress snippets, like, what is that like? [chuckles]

[KIM] In the beginning, it was a lot more organized and structured than it is now. We, I think when we first started, we said okay, we're gonna do a chapter a week, and we really tried to stick to that, to that goal. And we also discussed like, what sort of feedback we were looking for, at that particular stage in the process. I think at that process, we were both drafting. And so we were looking for that more hard in depth, truthful, honest, brutal honesty, critique, because we were both really interested in making our drafts the best they could be at that time. It has evolved. [chuckles] Now, Megan, do you want to tell them what it looks like now?

[MEGAN] Yeah, no, it's like, it's like, W.I.P. confetti. We're always in the same place, workwise. Like, Kim may be starting something. I'm in Act Three, or she's revising. And I'm trying to figure out, you know, the ending of my story or whatever. We're not usually like working side by side in terms of the plot, like how the plot structure...

[KIM] And the process.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[MEGAN] But we do all kinds of stuff. We do send each other things as we finish, like if we finished a chapter or something like that. Oh, God, I mean, we send each other stuff directly to each other's Kindles. I don't even email it to her, I just email it to her Kindle converted. And I'm like, it's on your Kindle. [Kim chuckles] We will screenshot things on the Scrivener app and just screenshot it and be like, this is the one paragraph I managed today. Tell me I'm wonderful.

[KARLI] So is it like a daily thing?

[MEGAN] Not daily, but we talk like 47 times a day. So we're always talking about—

[KIM] About our stories. Like—

[MEGAN] What's vexing us. Yeah.

[JAMIE] Is that exchange have a lot to do with accountability of it? Or are you guys constantly like, hey, can you tell me how this reads or this vibe? Like how much of that exchange is getting feedback on it? And how much is just being like, I did it?

[KIM] Well, it's both depending again, on what we, what we need. But I think in terms of critique, it's more constant than it was. And it's just, it's a less formal way of doing it. And Megan has become so instrumental in my writing process as a whole. That the way I structure books now is, you know, obviously, I get an idea, and I do my full outline. You know, before I write any word, will I walk through everything with Megan, before I even write a word, I'll be like, "Hey, I just had this idea in the shower. What do you think about this?" and we will sit there on the phone, and like, brainstorm and talk about it. Then when I m'oved to the outline stage, I'll write up an outline and be like, Hey, I wrote this outline, can you read it?" And she'll read it and vice versa. We are constantly, on the daily, talking about where we are at in our stories. If you're struggling, okay, where are you at? You're struggling? Let's let's talk through it. Because we know each other stories, so well, at this point in our friendship, like I know, every element of her story, she knows every element of mine. So it's a really natural, organic thing on the daily to come together and say, okay, where are we at? What do we need help with? Let's talk about it. The more formal of actually exchanging stuff, it really just kind of depends on when we get stuff done. But usually when we send things, it's a pretty, pretty quick turnaround time. And we're looking for that in depth critique, we're looking for that more formal feedback. But it's a lot of formal and informal together. And also we, sometimes we have to adjust the type of feedback that we give each other. Like a lot of times we'll just do accountability reads where—because like when I'm drafting sometimes I can't have critique because it derails me. So I'll just be like, Megan, read this so that you know what's going on in my story, so that when I have a problem later, you you can help me fix it. But I don't need critique right now. I just need you to know where I'm at so that you can help me down the road. So it just kind of depends.

[JAMIE] I love the “I don't need a critique, but I need you to have this so that you know what's going on.” Because...

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] When you're that linked critique partner, right, you need to know each other story, you need to know where that person's heads at, what they put on paper, so that when they do have questions, you have as close to the same amount of information that they have. So just like sending it to be like, don't don't say anything, just read it and know.

[KARLI] I feel like this entire conversation is just like an intervention for me. [laughter]

[JAMIE] I wasn't gonna to say it. [laughs]

[KARLI] I actually I have a question for you ladies. Are you both extroverted?

[KIM] I am definitely.

[MEGAN] I think I am.  I think so. I have moments of introvert-ness.

[KARLI] Okay.

[KIM] Same. Yeah.

[KARLI] Well, I mean, you gotta retreat and recharge for sure.

[KIM] Sure. Yeah.

[MEGAN] Right. Yeah, I don't get all my energy from being around other people. But I definitely feel like I come away.

[KARLI] Because I definitely feel like that level of being that communicative with each other, Jamie and I have spurts of that, but she's definitely introverted. And I would call myself an ambivert. We hit these lulls where we're both a little drained of just like the human interaction, we need to retreat, but we definitely have that kind of energy.

[JAMIE] It comes and goes in waves Karli's used to say sometimes I need to go unicorn. [Karli chuckles] Like nobody will hear from me for like days.  And I'm like, Oh yeah, I'm totally fine. I just am, I'm in my cocoon, like a cocoon of introvert. Where I'm trying to refill my cup. So I can go back out into the world and exist.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[MEGAN] See ours is so polar opposite from that. Kim is the only person who can call me at like, midnight or seven am. And I have, like, no heart rhythm thing happening [Jamie chuckles] when I pick up the phone, like I know, it's she's just calling me, like, it's not an emergency. It's just that you know, I just thought of this.

[KARLI] I will say we do check in with each other basically every day, but we definitely go through little waves where it'll be silent for a bit.

[JAMIE] We do it through gifs.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It's like, she sends a gif, I send a gift. That was our communication. [laughing]

[KARLI] That was our communication for the day. Everybody's alive.

[MEGAN] You have a healthy relationship. [laughter]

[KIM] I definitely, I think we have our lulls as well. Obviously, you've got kind of two things working together, because we're critique partners, but we're best friends as well. And while the two intersect quite a bit, they are two separate things.

[JAMIE AND KARLI] Yeah.

[KIM] So sometimes with the critique partner aspect of our friendship slash relationship, sometimes we're not in a headspace where we can talk about writing, or we want to talk about writing because you know, writing is a very difficult task, the publishing aspect of writing is even more difficult. And sometimes, our wells are equally empty. And we both struggle with, with mental health issues. And sometimes, like we're both just, you know, we ain't got nothing left. And I think that's where open and honest communication really comes into play. Because sometimes, Megan will just be like, you know, what, like, I'm working on stuff today, but I can't even really talk about it. I just don't want to talk about it. I'm like, okay, let me tell you this thing, my kids at breakfast instead. And like, we go from there, the, the key is just being open and just communicating, like how you're feeling cuz we definitely feel that to being a creative personality. Like, it just, it comes in waves. And there's just different energy levels. And sometimes you just, you don't have it to draw from. And so when that happens, we just say that, and it's not a thing, and we kind of move on, you know.

[JAMIE] Yeah, you gotta take off your writer hat.

[KIM] Yeah.

[JAMIE] You gotta be able to tell somebody that you're like, ah, I don't want to talk about this anymore. Like, I just needed to be human outside of this for a while. [chuckles]

[KIM] Yeah, I think trust and communication are the core of a healthy, solid working critique, partner relationship, and even more-so because we're friends, we have additional layers of that as well. So it's just knowing that the other person is in your corner, no matter what, no matter how you're feeling, and feeling comfortable enough to say, hey, I am drawing from an empty well right now; and knowing that that person is going to be like, okay.

[KARLI] It's really interesting how a lot of people that I've talked to, when they begin sharing their work with people that they find that they mesh with, it ends up bonding you as people because stories are so much a part of who we are. And so when you find somebody that can hold space for your story, and communicate with you in a way that is constructive for you, we naturally form, I think, a certain kind of bond with those people.

[KIM] Well, and it's like, we call them book babies, for a reason. Books are so personal, like, even if you're writing about, you know, zombies [Karli chuckles] or something, you know, it's still really personal, like you're something that you're creating. And anytime you take that and you hand it to another person, it does bond you I mean, it's like raising the kid with somebody, you know, you're going through the trenches together, you're going through it together, and it does create a really strong bond. And opening that side of yourself up to somebody is just, it's really cool when they're equally doing the same thing. And you're meeting in this place of like vulnerability, like there's some really cool things that happen when two people are vulnerable.

[MEGAN] It's totally like dating. [laughter]

[KIM] Yeah, exactly.

[JAMIE] Last season, we talked to A.P. about critique partners, and he mentioned, there has to be an even exchange, otherwise, one side might start to feel unbalanced in the exchange. I agree with what you're saying there, Kim, you have to open yourself up. If you just feel like you keep putting yourself out there. It's—

[KARLI] It has to be reciprocal.

[JAMIE] Yeah. And that's the intimidating part about trying to go out and find that new relationship is sometimes you have to be the first one to put yourself out there. And you have to hope that somebody is going to meet in the middle with you. And if they don't, then maybe they're not for you.

[KIM] Sure. And we recognize that we got incredibly lucky. We managed to find each other in a relatively pain free way. And so we just kind of took a chance that it would work out and and it did. That is not always how it works out. I've had several critique partner relationships that didn't work out, in fact, and it's not to say that, you know, those writers weren't great writers, because they were. It's not to say that they weren't great people because they were. But there's so much that goes into it. That sometimes it just doesn't work out and that's totally okay. And I think it's really important for people to realize that you may have to kind of go through a couple until you find someone that really clicks with you and what we really liked is the things that I was really good at Megan maybe kind of struggled with and vice versa, like our strengths and weaknesses are not the same. And so we were able to recognize that and really kind of play off of each other really well. And we saw a lot of potential for our work. Because of that other person's input. It really just, I don't know, it was a completely organic thing. We were just very lucky that it worked out like it did.

[JAMIE] You're so right, even though both of our sets of relationships are very different, it seems on the outside, you and your critique partner look a lot alike. But when you go to, to our strengths and weaknesses, as writers, they're opposite. Me and Karli had that same thing with like, she said, she's a stickler for grammar, and like, fantastic. That's exactly what I need in a critique partner. [Karli chuckles] I'm a mess. You have to have so many similar interests, similar interests in books and reading and all that. But like you said, your styles are completely different. And your methods or problems are completely different. You have to find somebody who complements you.

[KIM] And really common goals, too, for publishing too. So that helps too.

[MEGAN] Oh, definitely. And I think being able to click with the feedback. Like you can have feedback that is very on point. But if it is not given in a way that you have that little like bolt of lightning, or the light bulb going off, when Kim tells me something's not working, she's able to do it in a way where I see it through her eyes, like as the reader, and I hope vice versa.

[KIM] Definitely.

[MEGAN] How do we say this? Like, I'm very straightforward. I have a hard time Kim is like...

[KIM] In the clouds. [chuckles]

[MEGAN] Like the mama feedback, like "you're amazing," blah, blah, blah. [laughter] Just like I kind of forget to tell you things I like sometimes I'm just focused on the things that I see that need work. And so I have to think sometimes to be like, oh, yeah, it's nice to point out the positives. But like, that's just the way that—I'm much more...

[KIM] She's the Elsa and I'm the Anna.

[JAMIE] Don’t feel bad Megan, that is 100% relatable to me, because I'm like, oh, well, if I'm trying to just give you feedback to help you make this better. Here's all these things that I think are wrong. [laughing]

[MEGAN] That are wrong. Yeah, exactly.

[KIM] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And I'm like, that's helpful, right? No. Over the years, I've learned to, to temper that into a more constructive form. [chuckles]

[MEGAN] I mean, that's my natural—obviously—I don't literally even think about what I talk—what I write to Kim anymore, like...

[KIM] Nope. [chuckles]

[MEGAN] Then I'm worried when I actually go to read something for someone new. I'm like, Oh, God, how do I say this? Like, that doesn't sound like I'm a raging jerk, because I'm used to critiquing for my best friend. Like, it is a whole different level of critique. How do you say things that are like professional? You know, like [laughter] I feel like I've lost—

[JAMIE] You really got to dial it back, you know.

[MEGAN] I have gone feral. [laughter]

[KIM] Like, with somebody new, you might like see something you're like, you know, I really like the idea that you're going for, but maybe you should look at maybe possibly doing this. Instead of doing that, Megan'll be like, nope, in all capital letters. No, doesn't work. [laughter]

[JAMIE] When I work with other people, you might say something like, I'm not sure exactly what you mean, right here. And like Karli will be like, I don't know what word you're looking for. Did you forget to write half the sentence like, what's happening? [laughter] Let's cut to the point. Let's get down to it. [laughing]

[MEGAN] Yeah, I would never do that with anyone else. But with Kim, like, we talk about these stories in these characters. Not even the stories, but the characters so much that I'm like, I know what she's going for. You know, this is confusing, or not, you know, presenting it in the best light. So I'll just rearrange the sentence a little bit. Yeah.

[KARLI] We joke a lot, obviously. But there is such a, at least for me, such a great thing in knowing—I know, Jamie will tell me exactly what she thinks. So if she tells me she likes it, she likes it. Because she won't lie to me. She's too lazy to do that. [laughter] And so it's so satisfying, in a lot of ways, because it's like, I know, she's only saying these things in order to make me a better writer. But it's that whole thing of like, you have to find the people that you mesh with. It's the delivery system for sure.

[JAMIE] Yeah. The delivery system and the vibe.

[KARLI] Yes.

[MEGAN] The vibe. Yeah.

[KARLI] So it's definitely an important thing to find. Find that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, because I feel like somebody could tell me the exact same thing Karli might tell me. And I'd be like, eh.

[MEGAN] Put off by it. Yeah.

[JAMIE] Like in Father of the Bride where they're like, maybe you should take a jacket and I'm like, I don't need a jacket. [laughter] Oh, okay, I'll get a jacket. [laughter]

[MEGAN] No, I mean, it's so true, though. And I think it's just knowing too, that the other person has your back and they truly want your story to be the best it can be. Writers, I mean, I would say more so with newer writers, they're very worried... We have found in our life of being online, that a lot of newer writers are terrified of plagiarism. First of all, that's one reason why they don't reach out to people. And then the other thing is, they're really afraid that the other person is trying to tear them down. And I know there are people like that. But I would like to believe that there are few and far between; and people who are very serious about writing and publishing, are not trying to tear you down. They're not.

[KARLI] Either you guys don't mesh together, because that's always a possibility or it—this is a skill that you have to develop, you have to learn how to give feedback to people, and how to accept feedback. That is something you have to build, sometimes it comes across in a bad way, and you have to be able to be—talk about it.

[MEGAN] And you have to know your own limitations as a critique or and a reader, like if I don't read a certain genre, I don't feel confident critiquing it, to the extent that I would critique YA fantasy. Like, I can point out certain things. But I don't know what the genre norm is, or what the expectations are, if it's something that I'm not super well versed in.

[KARLI] Right.

[KIM] When you get feedback in general, it's difficult. We all know this. Just because I'm getting feedback from my best friend, and like my, like, soulmate, whatever, doesn't make it any less difficult at times; because Megan is very, very honest with me about what works and what doesn't work with my story, and vice versa. And that's not always easy. And I'm a really good hype girl. But I also, you know, like I'm pointing out difficult stuff. It's the compliments sandwich, you know, like, always try to end on a good note. But still, like, I know, there's been many times when me and Megan have had to give each other difficult feedback and just be like, hey, this is just not working, whatever. But it hurts less knowing that at the end of the day, I know that regardless of what crap I send to Megan, she still believes in me as a writer. She still thinks that there is value to my work. And she can see through whatever crap I've sent her and find the good. I don't know, there's just power in that and just know that she's going to give me honest feedback. And even if it's difficult to hear, it's coming from the very best place because she, you know, she wants the best for me and my stories. And that's, that's all that we could really ask for out of a critique partner relationship. And that's what we all strive for, is having that level of comfortability. And knowing that we're, you know, we're just trying to help each other out.

[JAMIE] It's really investing in another person. I get why young or beginning writers feel like, oh, well, this person maybe is just trying to tear me down, or I'm worried about this, it's—you got to shift your perspective of building a relationship and pouring into another person. It's not so much what I can get out of the relationship but what I can bring to the relationship.

[KIM] Yeah.

[KARLI] But finding somebody who feels the same Yeah. So that you're not getting the soul sucked out of you.

[JAMIE] What do you think is like the hardest part?

[KIM] Having the time to sit down and really invest. Because it's a lot of energy and time critiquing somebody. Well the way that we do it anyway. You know, we're going full on in depth developmental critiquing, and over here. And so sometimes finding the time to devote to giving that level of feedback, and also the energy. Again, you know, I struggle with mental health. And it's just sometimes it's really difficult to find the space to do it. And then just not being sure. And this is really for other people, not for Megan, obviously, but not being sure how other people are going to take the feedback. Because oftentimes, and I have found when I'm reading for other people, or even when I'm doing like freelance editing, people think that they want critique, but what they're really looking for is some sort of validation for their work. And so if they want validation, and I give them a hard critique, similar to what I would give Megan, the response is varied. To put it mildly. [laughter]

[JAMIE] When you're building up that relationship, like you were talking about Kim, the time investment, the energy investment, even though it's somebody else's creative work, when you are bringing that level of critique and feedback, you're turning off your story, and you're dedicating your creative energy to somebody else. And that is so valuable. And I appreciate that so much in a critique relationship, because it's like, I care so much about the story. And I don't expect anybody else to care. I mean, I hope somebody will care one day enough to buy it. But to have somebody who's willing to invest and care about something that's so squishy, like he's just a random idea I hadn't a shower. But let me call you at 11 o'clock at night and tell you about it.

[KIM] Oh it's happened. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yeah. It's so valuable.

[KARLI] Yeah, that time commitment, that energy commitment that you have, whether it's personal or writing creatively; because if you're trying to help them figure out their story and make it better, you're tapping into that part of your brain, that you then might be too tired to work on your own because you worked on theirs and then it's this whole learning—the give and and take in that and learning when you have to say, hey, okay, I need to set aside time for my own and then do yours and vice versa. And it's definitely a challenge to balance that out. But I agree, it's worth the investment. It's totally worth it. Totally worth it.

[KIM] Yeah, I think people are always looking to like, peek behind the curtain of critique partners. Like, it seems kind of like this enigma of a thing.

[MEGAN] Like a club. Yeah.

[KIM] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Especially for people who maybe haven't found a critique partner, or they've been told they need one. But they're like, I don't know.

[KIM] Yeah, and I think it just seems like this just intense kind of like, oh, well that I don't know if I could ever have that type of relationship. But at the core of a good critique partner relationship is just like getting to know somebody, establishing a foundation of trust, solid communication, like being open and honest with each other. And like, that's it. There's really no secret sauce, you know. Anybody can have this type of relationship, it just, it's about investing your time and your energy and finding someone you jive with, really is what it comes down to.

[KARLI] And it's your comfort level too. Like, you don't have to be texting each other from the bathroom kind of relationship. [Kim chuckles] I mean, you can. You can have whatever comfort level you are good with, in a scale. [chuckles] I feel like the four of us have probably more intense relationships than a lot of critique partners should probably have. It's not off the table if you want that kind of relationship. You just got to be searching for the people and communicating and trying to get to know people.

[MEGAN] Nothing grows your writing like having a critique partner.

[KIM AND KARLI] Yeah.

[MEGAN] That's the number one thing that takes it from the beginning stuff when you're doing it all by yourself. And like, you're the only lens that looks at these words. And then you give it to someone else, and you're like, holy crap, that's how a reader sees this?

[KARLI] It makes it real. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] We've all stated that we are in each other's personal lives. But for anybody who's looking for tamer, you don't have to be. You could definitely find and be critique partners and be very effective as long as there's an open communication about what you need, what the other person wants, and being able to have a back and forth about that, to a point where you're working well together. And both of you are benefiting each other. So you know, you don't always you don't have to find your your, your best friend. [laughs]

[MEGAN] Your soulmate.

[JAMIE] Necessarily.

[MEGAN] Do you wanna hook up or you want to get married? [laughter]

[JAMIE] Yeah, long distance relationship.

[MEGAN] [laughing] Yeah.

[KARLI] We equate it to dating and friendship because they think that that's the closest example that we have in our minds of like when you find somebody that you can communicate with on that level. But yeah, it doesn't have to be a personal relationship.

[MEGAN] It can be professional only.

[KARLI] Yes, absolutely.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I think, I think Kim and Megan are definitely married.

[KIM] Oh, yeah.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah, for sure.

[JAMIE] Me and Karli are long term but would nev—we would be common law but would never actually make it official. [Megan laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. I agree with that. Oh, yeah, that's perfect. Yep.

[JAMIE] Are there instances you don't necessarily have to share the details. But what's the hardest thing you've had to be like, "Heeey, there might be a giant plot hole right here and your entire story unravels and nothing makes sense anymore." I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but...

[MEGAN] Nothing's jumping to mind. I mean, I think it's more like things aren't coming across as the writer intended.

[JAMIE] Like maybe you wanted this character to be like super debonair, but he's coming off like—

[KARLI] Like a stalker.

[JAMIE] A-hole.

[KIM] Yeah, like—

[JAMIE] These are all made up scenarios, FYI listeners. [laughing] I'm not I'm not actually talking about any of Karli's stuff, just so you know.

[KARLI] I mean, I will say I did get feedback once that a character that I really enjoyed writing was coming off a little bit stalker-ish and so I really had to dial that back.

[KIM] Well, yeah, I mean, I think like an actual example from us: Megan is very, very good—like one of her skills is really focusing on like character agency. And every single time my character is not showing agency, she will call me out on it. And I'm always grateful for it. But I remember early on in our partnership, this was really when we were just kind of establishing our partnership and friendship or whatever. I was working on Keeper. Keeper had already sold at that point. And it was in the revision stages working with my editor and I had Megan read it and she sent me this big long thing back basically talking about how Lainey had no agency in several chunks of the book. And this is a book that had already sold. And I was like ahh, oh my god. But like I immediately kind of put my hat on and we talked about it and she helped me fix it and then because of that, because of the foundation that I was able to establish in Keeper, that character ended up evolving and really growing into, in my opinion, a very strong character with a lot of agency through the sequel. But I mean, that's difficult when you know, somebody says, "yeah, you know, your main character has no agency in this situation." But it was so helpful. And I was so grateful that she was able to, like, hone in on that and pointed out and she did so very kindly and very graciously and honestly, but you know, it was extremely helpful. So we have given each other difficult feedback. Emotion is huge for me. And so a lot of times I'll read a scene be like, I really love this, but let's put some more emotion in it. Let's make it—let's make readers cry. [Megan chuckles] So I mean—

[KARLI] I've never had to tell Jamie to do that. Uhn-uh. Never.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] Nope. Nope. Evidently, there are things that make people upset. And then readers expect that to upset people [laughing] and I just moved right along.

[MEGAN] We robots keep going. [laughter]

[JAMIE] That's not part of the plot.

[KIM] I think anytime you have to tell anybody that something in their story isn't working, that's challenging; because it's such a personal process. Sometimes I will go to Megan and be like, here, I wrote this, and I'm super excited about it. And she knows I'm excited about it. But in her head, she's also like, well, that doesn't work because of XYZ. And so she has to like, come to me in my excitement and be like, I really love this. But maybe you should think about this, I can always tell that something's not working. Because Megan will say, but you know, what if we thought about it this way. [laughter] I really like it, buuut. And then I'm like, well, I gotta scratch it. It's not working. Getting feedback is hard. But it stings less when it comes from Megan.

[MEGAN] We're helping each other through it too.

[KIM] Yeah.

[MEGAN] We're not giving each other feedback and being like, here's a problem. Have fun. We literally sit there and talk it out for hours sometimes.

[KIM] Yeah. So I'm not gonna give you a problem and then be like, okay, look, it's like, okay, well, I noticed this. So let's talk about it. And let's figure out how we can address it. That helps too, definitely. 'Cause a lot of times, if you get an edit letter from an editor, or from beta reader, like you kind of freak out, usually, oh, my gosh, I don't know how to fix this. But we're coming to each other with a problem, but also a solution. And that makes it less stressful.

[JAMIE] Yeah, you don't just give feedback and then walk away. It's like, if you need me to explain this further. Or if you want more ideas about this section, or how I felt about that, email me, call me, text me.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[KIM] And sometimes all it takes is like, it just takes her pointing something out or being like, hey, what about this, and then like, we start talking about it, and nine times out of ten, like, I'll come up with a solution to the problem that I really like. And it's not that Megan gave me the solution, she just brought the problem to my attention. And then I'm able to come up with a solution just from like spitballing and going back and forth. And, and vice versa.

[JAMIE] It's kind of just like feeding the embers, we're like blowing on the embers, and then you you light the fire.

[KARLI] And I definitely need the bouncing ideas off of somebody. I am such a verbal processor, I can come to it eventually. But I've got to just like talk in my weird squirrely way at somebody who cares and will retain at least a modicum of what I'm talking about for me to get there. So I totally get that.

[KIM] Yeah, you can't expect your critique partner to like fix the problems for you. That's not their job, like they're there to support you. And maybe that's where some critique partner relationships fall apart is because they're expecting one thing and getting another like, at the end of the day, like we're still responsible for our own stories. And within that too, our feedback is also incredibly subjective. In that trust nd in that brutal honesty, we also know and respect each other's choices as writers. Like if I give her feedback, and she doesn't take it or she goes in a different direction. I'm not gonna get my feelings hurt by that. Because ultimately, it's her story and she has to do what's right for her story. And I 100% respect that. That's really important that you go into it knowing, yeah, you're gonna help each other but they're not responsible for the outcome of your book. Like, that's you and you also don't necessarily have to take their feedback if it's not right for your story, too.

[KARLI] Absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that point up.

[JAMIE] So personal symbiotic relationship aside. [chuckling] As far as being like writers and critique partners, what are our favorite things about being critique partners?

[KARLI] I love the free stories. [laughter] Like I mean, seriously, just—there—I mean, I'm sure I could come up with more but my favorite thing is getting access to the—Jamie's creativity specific—I'll just be real specific because I love Jamie's brain. [Kim laughs] I was like quirky and stuff she is is just so fun for me. And so getting to watch her translate that into a story and then I get to read it and I get to read it before anybody else gets to read it. And I just feel like, so cool. [Jamie chuckles] I mean, there's a reason we readers We like the super exclusive ARCs and things like that. This is like the most exclusive level of nerdness when it comes to being a reader.

[JAMIE] That's so sweet of you to say, thank you. [chuckles]

[KARLI] [singsong] I love you.

[KIM] I mean, Karli kind of took my answer.

[KARLI] Oh, no.

[KIM] So...

[KARLI] See, I should have let my guest go first. Ettiquite would have dictated [Kim laughs] I let the guests go first, sorry.

[KIM] Well, I'm gonna like parallel that a little bit. And I'm going to try to say this without crying, but it's me. So. [chuckles] And I'm going to be again, super specific, because Megan is an extremely, extremely talented writer, like you guys just don't even know the depth of her talent and skill. And what my favorite part is, is not only getting to read her work before everybody else, but it is watching the beginning of a career that I know is going to explode when the time is right and her—[laughing] oh, I'm gonna cry, I'm gonna, oh, my throat is getting tight—I just generally believe that she is going to be big one day and that thousands of people are going to read her work, and be moved by it. Moved, like I am moved by it every single time I get to read. And that is just such a fun feeling for me, because I get to be along for the ride. I'm telling you guys, her work is amazing. And when you do finally get to read her book, you're gonna be blown away, because she's, she's my favorite author. And I'm her biggest fan. What can I say? [everyone chuckles]

[KARLI] Fangirling a little bit.

[KIM] A little bit, a little bit.

[MEGAN] Just, just a little bit. I would say. I mean, for me, I think it's a couple of things. Like one thing is kind of similar to getting the free stories. We do like that. That's even better than ARCs, like ARCs arrive and I'm like, Ooo. But you know, when I get to read something that literally no one else has read, that's super fun. But I think even more than that is like being behind the scenes of it. Not only seeing it take shape, but also being asked your opinion on like, how things are going to go and then watching someone take that and turn it into something completely different and better is the coolest thing. And I think like the other thing, if I'm talking like from just completely my own perspective, like you know how we all like writing, obviously. We wouldn't do it otherwise.

[KIM] What, we do? [laughter]

[KARLI] You like writing?

[KIM] Wait, really?

[JAMIE] I despise this. [laughter]

[MEGAN] We also hate it. It is a very strange relationship. This dream is convoluted. [Karli chuckles] Like it's one thing when you like write a line and you're like, oh, I like this. The tingly, like when you get the tingles in your teeth. Is that just me or like other? That happens to other people? I don't know.

[KARLI] I think that means you need to go to the dentist. [laughter]

[MEGAN] No. I don't think so.

[JAMIE] I'm pretty sure it does.

[MEGAN] I've like got goose bumps on my teeth. But I I get more excited when I write a line that I'm like, "Kim is gonna die." [Kim laughs]

[JAMIE] That's awesome.

[MEGAN] Yeah, but it's so like it's rewarding on a personal level, because so much of the journey and the process is total crap. [Karli laughs] It's real bad. We say it all the time. Why do we do this to ourselves? Because we can't not. That's why if we didn't, I don't know what we would do. Rob banks or something? [laughter]

[JAMIE] Back up. We'll call that plan B. [laughter]

[MEGAN] Right? It's really great to like, know that your critique partner has the same dream that you do, and that they're going through all the same things. They understand. I guess that's what the focus is.

[JAMIE] Camaraderie.

[MEGAN] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I'm gonna glom on to Karli's answer as well. [chuckles] I'm going to squish all of your answers into one answer. [all chuckle] That way, I don't have to come up with my own. It's getting the behind the scenes and know, it's something that I could never come up with. It's such a different angle. It's very exciting to see how that's going to unfold because it's, it's, what's the word? It's ineffable. [Karli laughs] You get a free story. And the behind the scenes of something that you just know is going to be amazing when it comes to fruition. Boom, I did put all of yours together didn't I?

[KARLI] Woo.

[JAMIE] I'm a real good cheater. [chuckles]

[KIM] It's really cool too 'cause you get to like, share. So much of the writing journey is like a door slammed in your face and [Jamie chuckles] you know, the writing journey and then also the publishing journey is even bigger doors slammed in your face.

[JAMIE] Once you get to publishing they spit on you and then they slam the door in your face. [laughter]

[KIM] But like when you journey with a critique partner and their victories are your victories and so even if your own journey is kind of a flaming dumpster fire, [Jamie chuckles] like if your critique partner is celebrating wins, like you get to celebrate those too and it's a pretty cool feeling.

[JAMIE] Well, because it's—it is a shared win.

[KIM AND KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Like nothing I accomplish could be accomplished without my critique partner.

[KIM] Ditto.

[MEGAN] Mhmm.

[KARLI] Yeah, same.

[JAMIE] It'd just all be flaming garbage in the trash bin. [chuckles]

[MEGAN] Yeah, or just no one would ever read it. [Kim chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah. Establishing a relationship with someone where you grow the courage to share. Because I don't think that one day you just wake up and have the courage to share. It's kind of one of those like, you have to leap before you know there's actually something there to catch you.

[KIM] But it's like you're not born with the desire or the ability to like, share, like, that's a skill that you have to kind of grow over time.

[KARLI] Yeah, growing that alongside somebody is part of what makes this process so fulfilling.

[KIM] Definitely.

[KARLI] Yeah, that that whole shared success thing.

[JAMIE] And then you have somebody who can occasionally point out how far you've come.

[KARLI] Yeah!

[JAMIE] There are days we all feel like, Why do I even do this? I'm no better off than I was, whatever many years ago. And then the other can come alongside and say, excuse me.

[KARLI] Hold up.

[JAMIE] You've done these things. I've learned this from you. I've seen your work improve and change and grow. And that's, that's another quality that hopefully a good critique partner is going to bring, is they can remind you of your triumphs when you feel like a dumpster fire.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Which is 90% of the time.

[KIM] Yup. [Megan laughs]

[JAMIE] So would you like to do a Two Cent Recommendation this week?

[MEGAN] Yeah, I have one for sure. Mine's a couple of years old.

[JAMIE] Just the way I like it.

[MEGAN] So people may have already partaken and been like, okay, nevermind. Mine is actually, I think, a really interesting documentary that spoke to me on a soul level when it came, it's called Into the Unknown. It's the making of Frozen II. So it's on like Disney+, it is like a six episode... five or six episodes. That's like, I think stretched along the last year of the production of Frozen II. And it is so applicable to the writing journey. And it's talking about a lot of the things we've talked about: critique and feedback, and editing and stress and all this stuff. When they start it, like almost none of the film is actually done. They have a like a sketch version of the film. That's, it's really raw.

[JAMIE] Yeah. It's like the storyboard.

[MEGAN] Yeah, it's more like a storyboard. And they go into a theater. And it's full of all the top people of Disney and Pixar and like these big, huge names of storytelling, and they go in there and they rip it to shreds. I mean, these are very well known, respected, award winning storytellers in their own right, and they are just walking away licking their wounds. But they're talking about how this is an imperative part of the process. Because if you're putting something out for public consumption, you have to let the public consume it. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Mmm. Yeah.

[MEGAN] You know, and it's better to do it kind of beforehand. So you can tweak things, and you don't just give them something terrible.

[JAMIE] That's great. That's not something that I would probably see and click on. But now that I know that, I will for sure.

[KARLI] I—Yeah.

[KIM] She called me and was like, "Kim, you have to watch this documentary." Of course, I'm a Disney princess at heart anyway, so I was like [high pitch voice] "Ooo, the making of Frozen!" [normal voice] She's like, "No, no, no, it is like a direct parallel to the creative process as a writer."

[KARLI] Fantastic recommendation. I never—same. I never would have clicked on that. But now I totally am.

[JAMIE] Thank you guys so much for coming on and like sharing your experiences and showing us that we're not the only ones who are like in a real weird, symbiotic relationship. [laughter] If you're looking for Megan or Kim, they can both be found on Instagram @kimwritesbooks, or @meganwritenow. And their websites are kimchance.com and authormeganlacroix.com.

[KIM] That's us.

[JAMIE] You can follow us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast or on Twitter @theactbreak_. You can find a transcript for this episode as well as a backlog of all of our episodes on our website at scifiohmy.com/podcasts on the episode archives or follow the links in our Instagram page. Subscribe on wherever you acquire this fine, fine podcast and we will talk to you next week. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Bye, internet friends.

[MEGAN AND KIM] Bye!!! [laughing]