S2 Ep.16 Movies Vs. Television

Movies Vs TV - Transcript

[KARLI] [singing] Running on cough drops and coffee.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] It's a winning combination.

[KARLI] It's really not; it's actually kind of disgusting.

[JAMIE] I bet it is. [laughs]

[KARLI] Pretty sure I have allergies. It's a whole situation that I don't know what to do with.

[JAMIE] Do you take an allergy medication?

[KARLI] I just started this morning because I realized that the quote unquote cold wasn't going away. But I really had no symptoms other than like allergy symptoms. So it was like, I know I did have a cold at one point. But I just, it's—

[JAMIE] You've had a cold before in your life?

[KARLI] [laughing] At one point in my life. I have had a cold. No, I mean, like at the beginning of this whole convoluted mess that has become my—

[JAMIE] [laughing] Life? Existence?

[KARLI] My entire existence.

[JAMIE] So if you fall asleep halfway through the podcast, it's because of this.

[KARLI] I will—I second guessed taking it before this. I was like, should I wait? We'll find out.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI]  Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] I am excited for this chat with you this morning.

[JAMIE] Hold on. Don't be excited yet. [Karli sighs exasperatedly] Be serious. Welcome back to The Act Break podcast, here with you today. My name is Jamie Redact; I'm an author of sorts.

[KARLI] I am Karli, I am not here with you today present in any way shape or form. But you will hear my voice regardless. Hopefully the thoughts are coherent.

[JAMIE] Does that mean you're like a ghost? If you're not here at all in any way, shape or form... It's—so it's just me pretending to be Karli.

[KARLI] Yeah, basically.

[JAMIE] [laughing] Both roles.

[KARLI] Both roles.

[JAMIE] Karli's been recast.

[KARLI] I feel you're doing a pretty good job so far sounding authentically like me. I'm Karli. Howdy, howdy, howdy.

[JAMIE] Now you can be excited [laughing] about today.

[KARLI] [Jamie and Karli laughing] I'm so excited about today.

[JAMIE] You officially have permission to be excited. [laughing]

[KARLI] Wow. Thanks, Jamie. What are we talking about today?

[JAMIE] What are we talking about today?

[KARLI] Do you want to introduce our topic? Or do we do we want to just pretend like nobody's here. [Jamie laughs] Nobody's here today. It's just you and me having a chat with mics on and head sets.

[JAMIE] All right before we forget about the rest of the world. Insert spoiler alerts here.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] We actually did pretty good. Everything is just mild spoilers, where we don't actually spoil what happened. We just mention that we were maybe displeased. The works mentioned include Game of Thrones, Ozark, Supernatural, and I think that's all. Movies versus television. I say television, and that includes streaming. Pretty much shows, episodic stories.

[KARLI] There you go. I like, I like that description. Because yeah, it's not. It's not the same as it used to be, as us old folks [chuckling] remember.

[JAMIE] 'Cause times, they are a changin’. [silly old person voice] I just remember gathered around the old radio listening to the story of the week. [Jamie chuckles]

[KARLI] I remember having a television with static on it that had a black and white setting. So we'll just say that.

[JAMIE] What was it called? The radio show? Mr. Whittaker? [Karli laughs] You know what I'm talking about. What was that show called?

[KARLI] Odyssey.

[JAMIE] Yes. [laughs]

[KARLI] Adventures of Odyssey. Adventures in Odyssey? Adventures in Odyssey. Yeah.

[JAMIE] That's correct.

[KARLI] Mr. Whittaker! [both laugh]

[JAMIE] I just wanted to take you back on a journey.

[KARLI] You really did. I was teleported through time. That's time travel folks.

[JAMIE] The beauty of what is now radio is this. We do whatever we want now. This is another one of those episodes where I—we coined it versus but we're not actually putting them up against each other. There are pros and cons to each, television versus movies.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] I'm sure you reached your own conclusion as well on there is a winner. But is there a winner?

[KARLI] There is no winner for me.

[JAMIE] It's difficult. I felt like maybe there was a winner just because of the very specific reason that this whole episode came to mind.  Yeah.  I don't know if I want to say it now or if I want to wait till later.

[KARLI] Save it. But I but I think I know I think I know what your winner is going to be. So I'll be curious to know if I'm right or not. Don't worry. I'll let you know if I was right or not. I really like being right.

[JAMIE] Yeah. So the most important thing is not so much being right, as making sure everybody knows you were right. [laughs]

[KARLI] I think it's both.

[JAMIE] No, because then when you're not right, you just act like you didn't think about it at all. You know what I mean? [Karli laughs] That's how it works.

[KARLI] Ummm okay, you you could be right on that one. [Jamie laughs] However, I do very much enjoy being right.

[JAMIE] Well, obviously, who doesn't? But would being right be as satisfying if other people didn't know you were right?

[KARLI] It is incredibly satisfying to let people know that I was right.

[JAMIE] That's really the cherry on top.

[KARLI] It really is.

[JAMIE] [laughing] I know. Okay, grandpa, let's move on. I just okay, grandpa'd myself. [Karli laughs] So let's talk about the difference between TV and movies, like the big stark differences.

[KARLI] Obviously, there are production differences. But I think in this conversation, we're leaning a little bit more towards... maybe not nebulous, but like, philosophical standpoint of what we really feel about how it comes out.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I mean, whatever we want to throw against the wall.

[KARLI] Okay, see what sticks. So what I came down to... initial takeaway, when I started thinking about the different forms; I'm sure you can get way more technical than I can, there are some things that I do know, but like, you really, you really know about all this stuff. You can niche down on it. Ultimately, I compared—to kind of help me process this—TV shows or like book series. And movies are like short fiction, in their ability to do certain things.

[JAMIE] Question.

[KARLI] Answer.

[JAMIE] Would you say that they are like short fiction or standalone?

[KARLI] Short fiction.

[JAMIE] Why short fiction, in particular?

[KARLI] Because movies have more space and the ability to be more experimental, and to subvert expectation within their framework, than TV shows. TV shows, when they start, they establish themselves as a certain thing. And while there can be some subversion and stuff like that, with different things that happen within it. Usually the mind bendy, like totally changing things up, will lose them viewers. And so it's not going to happen as often, whereas movies, its shorter commitment. And so I don't know how to, like really explain it. But I also feel like it's, it's a more condensed, it's more condensed and more powerful. It has less space to convey what it's trying to convey. And so they are there's, it's really impactful with its images and sounds and words, and when it's done well. So I feel like that made me think of short fiction, more than anything else, personally.

[JAMIE] Okay... Because to me, short fiction would be like, a scene from a movie.

[KARLI] Right. And in a lot of ways, you're right in when it comes to story structure. Absolutely. You're right. I'm more from the concept of it, leaving you with a feeling more than anything else.

[JAMIE] Okay. I agree that on average, you can do more stranger things narratively and stylistically, with a movie than you can a television series.

[KARLI] And I think you can do that more with short fiction than you can with a standalone novel.

[JAMIE] I disagree.

[KARLI] Not always that not always.

[JAMIE] I'm just saying, in my opinion, I disagree with that.

[KARLI] That's fair.

[JAMIE] So you can do the weird stylistic thing in movies more than television shows. There are television shows that do that.

[KARLI] Right, which is there's always an exception.

[JAMIE] As per example, like Community, Supernatural, Wandavision, like there are some shows out there that do break molds, but I agree on the whole, you can get away with a lot more in a movie.

[KARLI] I think, like what you're saying about the story structurally, absolutely. Like, there isn't always a beginning, a middle, and an end to short fiction. It's more like you said a scene of something. So in some ways, my analogy works, and then it starts to break down. As per usual.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] But that's okay.

[KARLI] I'm just saying, emotionally, what it evokes for me made me think of that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, so some of the advantages, because I'm like, I want to try and make slight argument for both. And television. If a series has been picked up, you're going to get nowadays, eight plus episodes. Back in the day, it was up to like, usually thirteen episodes the first season and up to twenty-three episodes as the seasons get picked up. Unless it's in jeopardy of getting canceled. Basically, just shy of twenty-six hours of content because commercials because TV was also designed to make money. [both chuckle] That's a big part of it. So you have to more time to let the story unfold. You have more time to get to know your characters. Character development of those two things can be a pro and a con.

[KARLI] Yep.

[JAMIE] Depending on how they're handled.

[KARLI] Yeah, that was definitely something that stood out to me the character investment. And also fan reaction to character and story investment and how that relationship works. Because with movies, while you can have very impactful characters that you care about a lot, the movie—it's out it's an after the fact acknowledgement and reaction of those characters. Whereas while the show is running, the internet, now, there is a it's...

[JAMIE] It's an ongoing developing relationship. [chuckles]

[KARLI] It's an ongoing developing relationship. Yes.

[JAMIE] Yeah, because the investment is so much higher. Because when you go to a bad movie, you've only wasted two hours of your time.  And like a hundred dollars. [laughs] Sorry. What kind of movie theater are you going to? [both chuckle] I mean, it's still expensive to go to movies compared to what it was when we were younger. But I'm like, it should only be like 20 bucks to go see a movie. [laughs]

[KARLI] For—okay, one person. I'm just thinking when I go to the movies, I've got my whole family. So it's like a hundred bucks.

[JAMIE] [laughing] Well that's a personal choice. If you want to spend time with your family, [Karli laughs] I guess that's what you do.

[KARLI] Jamie's like, "I want to be alone."

[JAMIE] Bye!

[KARLI] "Dont' talk talk to me, bye."

[JAMIE] But when you end, a show that has a bad ending, that usually years of your life, you've invested into it. Even a short but successful show would be considered five to seven seasons. That's a long time to be invested in the show.

[KARLI] Pretty long investment.

[JAMIE] I'm interested as, as things have been changing with streaming, how long things are running. And let's keep in mind that we're talking about U.S. television.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Because the way like the BBC does, it is completely different than the way we do it over here. Which leads us into the story structure problem.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I mean, I guess it's not necessarily a problem. But it obviously is for some people.

[KARLI] [laughing] It can be.

[JAMIE] [exasperated noise] Ugh.

[KARLI] Yeah. Because movies no matter what structure they use, but most American filmmakers use the three act structure. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end. And with shows, there's a beginning and we get introduced to these characters, but then like season upon season of act two, and then and then the endings tend to be very unsatisfying, because it's a disproportionate amount of ending to the second act. Not always, not always. But I find I tend to be very dissatisfied with TV show endings as a whole. Because they don't spend enough time bringing everything through to a satisfying close, they end it too quickly for the amount of time that we spent with these characters.

[JAMIE] I, I agree and disagree on a couple of points there.

[KARLI] Ooo, tell me.

[JAMIE] Because I don't think the problem lies in the amount of time spent, okay, if the ending is the right ending for the show. But I do agree that very often, in the shows that we're probably thinking of, they wrap things up too quickly. And when they should've started setting up or going into Act Three, three plus more episodes than they actually did.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] That's one of those squishy things where it's like eh, it's a case by case basis. Because it makes sense to me that you would maybe only spend the last three episodes in Act Three, because it's the end of a series, but it depends on if you've done the work [Karli chuckles] to write, the correct ending. And I'm saying that—that's obviously, my opinion is that there is correct endings and there are [chuckling] incorrect endings. And a lot of that is why I thought of this episode. Because if I have to watch one more fantastic series end with a crappy, good-for-nothing ending, I am going to make a whole [laughing] podcast about it. [both laughing]

[KARLI] Oh, great.

[JAMIE] Oh, just like today.

[KARLI] Yeah, completely agree with you. What it comes down to, which I know that you could probably speak a little bit more about this than me, is that a lot of times shows don't know how long they're going to get.

[JAMIE] Yep.

[KARLI] And so granted, they want to go as long as possible because they're making this for money. They spend a little bit more time focused on making the show last as long as possible than they do on story structure and telling a good story. But then at the same time, then they're like ooo, we're coming to a close. They don't spend enough time combing back through the work that they did to try to bring everything to a full and proper close. They're just like, oh crap, we're ending. This is the, this is the most logical ending for the most recent events. And you're like, but what about this stuff back here? And like, what about that? Those of us who have spent years and probably multiple watches through, feel like we know [laughing] more than the writers do.

[JAMIE] So yeah, let's, let's talk about the industry. Just like a, get that rundown for how it works. Because a movie, you have a script, and it is a complete narrative tale, you know where you're going. And that's one of the places where I cut television writers a break, because there's a lot of factors. One is that they don't know how long they're going to run. It's really, really common to not know if you're gonna get another season. What you want to do in those scenarios is usually write a season finale that leaves it open for another season. If the people in charge really want to goad executives in fans into really wanting another season, they will write cliffhangers. And they will leave it open ended so that the story has somewhere to go past that.

[KARLI] But then what happens sometimes is they write those cliffhangers... and they still don't get a second season.

[JAMIE] Oh, yeah, exactly. And that's really common.

[KARLI] Then us fans are screwed. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] And that happens all the time. Because they want to run for so long, there's a lot more input from executives, fan interactions, number—like week by week numbers—like you make a movie, you go to the box office, you earn your money back. Or you don't and it's over with a television show. It's like on the weekly looking at the Nielsen ratings, looking at the numbers, looking at how many people are viewing this. And then, depending on that amount, then executives get involved. [both chuckle] And they tell show runners, this is what we want, make it happen. So there is executive problems with any movie or show. But especially with television, it's there to make money. And the more people who watch it, the more money it makes. Relating that all back to writing structure. Just like for a movie, there's one script, one story. There's one director. There's one person in charge of the creative vision. Basically. With television, different people write each episode, different people direct each episode. There's so many fingers in the pie [chuckling] of what's going on.

[KARLI] Or you don't. [chuckles] Sometimes too many cooks spoil the broth. Sometimes it's beautiful soup, but sometimes...

[JAMIE] Yeah, on average, many of the people writing episodes for television shows have no idea how it would end. Sometimes the show runners don't know how it would end.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Recently, we've gotten more with with streaming, we get more completed series. There are definitely exceptions. As an example, the first five seasons of Supernatural, Eric Kripke was the showrunner and developer/creator. And he had a very specific narrative arc. And after that arc, he left because that was his story.

[KARLI] And that's all he wanted to tell, yeah.

[JAMIE] I very much appreciate that about him is that he was like, this is the story I had. And I am done at this point.

[KARLI] Yeah. This is something that the mechanic rants about constantly. And I agree with him for the most part, I'm more willing to watch shows that are being dragged out. But he is very much, you have a story to tell. You tell that story. And then you're done. Stop trying to make more money, and make characters do things that make no sense giving us pointless episodes for no reason, just because you're trying to make money because then you've completely lost him. And he wants that satisfying conclusion. And more often, those sorts of shows where somebody sets out to tell a story, they tell their story, and they're done, tend to have a more satisfying conclusion because they've thought it out prior.

[JAMIE] That's where British television has it all, over American television because they run in series. They don't have a bunch of television shows that have run for years and years and years. Doctor Who aside.

[KARLI] But that's a whole different kind of like narrative style that it totally works for that. So that's fine.

[JAMIE] Yeah, usually a show gets made and it's done. It's one series, maybe two. Sherlock. They had three seasons, which was kind of a surprise. And so that's why I'm always like, I want to cut TV writers a break. They only are in charge of this one episode. They probably do not have the full scope of what's happening. It's when we get down to the end of a series where I look at the showrunner and I go "What did you do? Why? Why did you do this? Who put you in charge here?"

[KARLI]  Why did you ruin Supernatural?

[JAMIE] Why did you ruin Supernatural? Why did you ruin Ozark? Why did you ruin Game of Thrones?

[KARLI] Yeah, oh yeah.

[JAMIE] [chuckling] Why did you ruin, so, so many shows? And I can boil all of these horrible endings down to one problem. And that is characterization.

[KARLI] Oooo.

[JAMIE] In every single one of these, I feel that what happens at the end being quote unquote, bad, is a direct correlation to bad characterization of the characters we have spent years getting to know. They act out of character, or they do not complete the arc of the character that we've been building for years.

[KARLI] Yes, they make something happen that is convenient for the ending that they have chosen and not adjusting based on the character that has evolved over the years. Yes, mic drop.

[JAMIE] Like just a few weeks ago, we finished Ozark. And I was just so—and that's where I got really—I get really angry about Ozark in particular, because I believe it's four seasons. And they knew, it's when a show knows that it's ending. I will give a full reprieve to any show that was canceled.

[KARLI] Oh, absolutely. They have a free pass.

[JAMIE] Free pass, I get it.

[KARLI] I'm mad. But it's not your fault. [Jamie chuckles]

[JAMIE] Exactly. But when a show knows it's ending, and it still leaves you dissatisfied.

[KARLI] Doesn't deliver.

[JAMIE] That is there's something—somebody didn't do their job. [laughs]

[KARLI] You had one job. I agree, it is all about the characterization. If a character begins to act completely out of their norm, in order to make something happen that's convenient for the show ending. You're going to piss off your fans, you're just going to. If you can't find a way to make your ending work with your character, you need to change your ending.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Like you can't just—I mean, you can, but you shouldn't—just change your character all of a sudden, in order to make this one ending stick. With shows, I mean, they're out they're out in the world, you cannot go back to the beginning, and edit and get the ending that you want. The character has evolved. One of the reasons this happens. A showrunner has potentially maybe in my mind, a general idea of the ending that they might want to work towards. But the problem is, is that this is an interactive experience, not just between, like the fan reaction, but the actor and the actor's interpretation of the character, sometimes takes the character in a direction. And then they're all interacting with each other, so on and so forth, it evolves. And then all of a sudden, you get to the end, and that ending no longer fits for that character. And the showrunner insists for the show to end that way, when they needed to reevaluate.

[JAMIE] It's hard 'cause what you're saying might potentially be the case. But on the whole, a lot of shows have multiple show runners throughout. Supernatural had five. And so the executives are in charge of who's the showrunner.

[KARLI] Yeah, it changes hands.

[JAMIE] And they can they can be replaced when they're not happy. So it's, it's such a bummer. Unless you've sold your show as like, this is the whole...

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Then it is more wobbly [Karli chuckles] like out of control. As far as choosing something out of character to end the show—like as a study of this—that makes me think of Game of Thrones, and Supernatural. If you want to have an ending that requires your main characters to act against what we've seen them develop or build, the proportion of their dissent needs to be equal to the amount of dissent.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] So if Khaleesi is going to...

[KARLI] Go crazy.

[JAMIE] She's gonna lose her mind. She's gonna do the opposite of what she's been preaching about doing the entire time we've known her, they give her a trauma. That's like the first thing that you would think. If you need to shift the characterization of somebody, they have to go through a trauma, they have to go through a trial. I get that. But it has to be enough of an event plus other things on top of that for long enough for me to buy it.

[KARLI] I completely agree with the amount of time spent. It's not the fact that she did that. It's the fact that they didn't give us enough time to showcase that effectively. And it made it look—

[JAMIE] Abrupt.

[KARLI] It was, it was way too abrupt, which is my whole argument with the ending of shows. Is they are almost always too abrupt. They come to a conclusion, and then they're like, bam, bam, bam, done. And you're like, wait a second. What?

[JAMIE] If you're going to make your character... If you're going to change your characters in the very last episode or the very last scene—Ozark!—it doesn't make sense.

[KARLI] Going back to the, spending so long and act two. I totally get that you can't spend an entire season in Act Three, I get that. Like, that's, that's a lot. However, okay, wait, wait, wait.

[JAMIE] If you know, it's your last season, the whole last season—

[KARLI] Should be.

[JAMIE] All be Act Three.

[KARLI] I guess that's what I'm trying to say is that, like, if you're aware that your show is ending the entire last season should be Act Three. And the climax should not be like the climax of the entire season should not be happening at three quarters of the way through the final episode.

[JAMIE] [laughing] Exactly.

[KARLI] How dare you.

[JAMIE] Right?

[KARLI] Like, don't do that to us. Like, we have to have the denouement. Like you have to give us the final image, you have to give us the after picture. You cannot take us to this cliff, kick us off of it, and then expect us to be totally fine with the ending. When we get five minutes after, at the end of like, then this is this is how they are now.

[JAMIE] I probably, if I could choose, I feel like the climax of an entire series should hit just, just about the end of the penultimate episode.

[KARLI] Yes, my opinion as well.

[JAMIE] And then you get that the last episode is the the final moments of the climax. And then the resolution.

[KARLI] Yep.

[JAMIE] Especially if your show's run for like, seven plus years. Come on, come on, give us—give the people what they want. You're leaving anyway. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, and I don't want to I don't want to go on a whole tirade about capitalism. [Jamie laughs] But our need to monetize art is just [exasperated noise] ruins art.

[JAMIE] Especially television.

[KARLI] Especially television. I am—so I'm just going to mmm, and then—What I think a lot of executives don't understand is they don't understand story. What is required for us as people in what we want and need in a resolution of a story to make it satisfying. They think that if it's not all flashbang, in the final episode, nobody will watch it. That's B.S., if we've spent years with these characters, and we love them, and we're there for the end, we're going to watch it, we want to know what's happening. We want it, [dramatic whipser] give it to us.

[JAMIE] There's a thing called market research, [Karli chuckles] and like focus groups, there's an episode of Community where they pick people to be in these focus groups, and they grab Pierce and Shirley. Pierce, like in that whole scene, is like the epitome of what I imagine executives or you know, the people they've hired. They find the eighteen to forty, white men. And they say what do you want? And then they give it to him. [laughs]

[KARLI] Ohhh, oh it's not funny. But it's funny.

[JAMIE] I feel like that, that that's the that's the gist of why movies are—I mean, you can still have a bad movie—but on the whole I can think of dozens of good endings to movies. And good endings to shows are very rare.

[KARLI] So rare.

[JAMIE] Ultimately, there are pros and cons to both. I like the satisfaction that one complete movie can give me. But when it comes to watching things, I watch more TV.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Because I want to spend more time with those characters.

[KARLI] Yep.

[JAMIE] It's also a whole thing with anxiety and stress and being burnt out where you want to return to the same characters you know.

[KARLI] It's a comfort thing.

[JAMIE] Exactly. Even shows that have horrible endings.

[KARLI] I don't think in my mind that there is a winner because... I don't feel like it's a fair comparison, because they are two different forms. But I am glad that we had the discussion about them.

[JAMIE] And we mostly were focused on story structure of it.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Television has a lot of wiggle room. Yeah. Which is nice. Grey's Anatomy. Like they have the opportunities to completely change out their whole cast.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Community... So few people were paying attention to it. They were able to do so many, like nebulous things.

[KARLI] That is true.

[JAMIE] So you know, both mediums have merit.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] I 100% give a reprieve to television writers who have to write things while they have no idea what's happening, but zero reprieve to any show runner who's in charge of ending a show and poops their pants. [Karli laughs] I'm not saying I could do it. I'm just saying I'm unhappy. [laughs]

[KARLI] On that note, I know that it'll make the recommendation section really long, but based on both of our passionate level of like commitment to this topic, I believe that we both deserve recommendations.

[JAMIE] We deserve—we earned this.

[KARLI] We've earned the right to do whatever [Jamie laughs] we want on the podcast that we created.

[JAMIE] There's no arguing with that.

[KARLI] [laughing] Let's do our recommendations for the week.

[JAMIE] Let's!

[KARLI] Based on my interpretation of what a movie is—

[JAMIE] [laughing] Of what a movie is?

[KARLI] Of what a movie is. An emotional encapsulation of a feeling or an idea and it leaves you with this very powerful image. I am recommending Pan's Labyrinth. it is dark and gritty. But it is one of the most powerful movies that I've seen and I love it.

[JAMIE] My recommendation is going to be a television series that was cancelled but they knew in advance that they were not getting the next season. If you want to watch a fantastic show with a fantastic ending, watch Travelers on Netflix. Which I maybe have plugged before but I don't care. [laughs] Yeah, it's, it's wonderful. Yeah, it was like one of those things where when it ended like I had the opposite feeling as when I watched the end of Ozark. [both laugh]

[KARLI] I can tell you're, you're really salty about Ozark. It's a fresh, it's a fresh wound. [laughs]

[JAMIE] It's a very slightly veiled rage. I guess this is the part where I'm gonna break the fourth wall here and act like we're not just talking to each other because we haven't been doing that at all. [Karli chuckles] All right, thanks for listening everybody. Please follow or subscribe to The Act Break on your podcast consumption method of choice. You can find the links to all of our social media and our website in the liner notes on the description of the episode. And transcripts will be available on our website. I think that's all. [laughs]

[KARLI] We did it!

[JAMIE] Somebody, somebody give that woman a cookie!

[KARLI] We figured out how to shorten—I figured out how to shorten our call of action. I deserve a pat on the back.

[JAMIE] It only took us half a season! We did it! Have a good week.

[KARLI] [chuckling] Bye.