S2 Ep.17 Death of the Author w/ A.P. Thayer

Death of the Author - Transcript

[JAMIE] I feel like we really missed an opportunity to call this the unprepared podcast. I feel like it would have been almost more accurate than our current title. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Probably. Yeah.

[A.P.] I don't know what you're talking about. I've got two wiki articles and the original Death of the Author article, ready to go.

[KARLI] Wow, I did zero preparation.

[JAMIE] You pulled the original?

[A.P.] Well not the original, original this was this is the translation into English, since it was originally written in French.

[KARLI] Oh, you can't read French?

[JAMIE] Why didn't you just study the French? If you were really prepared, you would have learned French for this episode.

[A.P.] [Speaks French}

[JAMIE] Well. [Karli laughs]

[A.P.] That's that brushing up against the limit of my french.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Perfect.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE]  Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE]  Welcome back to The Act Break Podcast today we are joined by, is it a guest as much as it is just a presence that is sometimes here? Our prints of pontification, A.P. Thayer is also with us. [all laugh] I don't know how you feel about being called—

[A.P.] No, because I was gonna try and say something funny, but my gosh, I kind of like that. [Karli laughs]

[JAMIE] Yeah, I mean, who can pontificate better. It's also very convenient that one of our most available during our usual time slot friends also happens to be very knowledgeable [chuckling] and good at spewing whatever subject—

[A.P.] Are these backhanded compliments? I—I'm like... [all laughing] I'm trying to—

[JAMIE] It's call a compusult.

[A.P.] [laughing] Okay.

[KARLI] Welcome to my world. A.P. I'm always like, was that a compliment? I mean...

[A.P.] Yeah. Am I supposed to feel good about this?

[KARLI] Do I feel good about what just happened?

[JAMIE] I said that you were so knowledgeable. So how is that…

[A.P.] Of all the people that are available at 9:30 [Jamie and Karli laughing] in the morning during the weekday?

[JAMIE] You know, I have a style of humor. And can't—

[KARLI] She can't just flip—

[A.P.] Either you get it or you don't, really like that's... [laughs]

[KARLI] You can't just flip a switch.

[JAMIE] All I'm saying is A.P. keeps showing up so it can't be that upsetting.

[A.P.] Like a bad penny.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Like just an abused dog.

[A.P.] You guys feed me sometimes.

[JAMIE] What a jerk. Me, that is. Speaking of me. My name is Jamie Redact. I am a speculative fiction author, and I am joined today by my co-host.

[KARLI] Karli— [makes noises] I don't even know who I am—

[JAMIE] Classic Karli.

[A.P.] Karli, the enthused. [chuckling]

[KARLI] Who am I? I am K.C. Ash, also known as Karli, and I write things occasionally. I'm also dead inside. [Jamie and A.P. laugh]

[JAMIE] Who's not? Do you want to say anything about the type of writer you are, A.P., because you are much more legitimate than the other people on this zoom call?

[A.P.] I take issue with the term legitimate first and foremost. I don't know, I kind of agree with the emotions that Karli just had [A.P. and Jamie laughing] with her introduction. You know, like, I feel that at a very deep level. I write speculative fiction. I like to blend genres. I enjoy writing shorter fiction than longer fiction. But my goal is to be a novelist.

[JAMIE] So your novels tend to be on the shorter side, I would imagine

[A.P.] They do actually. Yeah, like my current novel sitting at like 72,000.

[JAMIE] I wish more good [laughing] novels were that length. I don't always want to read 100,000 words.

[A.P.] I like never want to read 100,000 words. I don't even want to read my 72,000 words. [all laugh]

[KARLI] Well listen, none of us really want to read our own work as many times as we have to, so that's, that's relatable.

[JAMIE] Let's get to the topic. Today we're talking about "The Death of the Author." What it means and our take on it. Like what we believe to be the Death of the Author and then maybe what it actually originated as, but I feel like I'm gonna be leaning heavily on A.P. this episode. [laughing]

[A.P.] No, no don't—I mean, I feel like I've found myself in the same place you you both have for when it comes to this because my—when I first heard of "The Death of the Author," I had no idea it was you know, an actual thing by you know, written by a Frenchman 50, 60 years ago.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I started doing a little bit more research for this and I was like, oh, it's like a whole essay, and concepts… [mimicks snoring]  So we're not gonna go deep into that.

[A.P.] Sure, sure. I wonder if my experience with it is the same as it was for the two of you. When I first heard it, I immediately, I can't remember if it was because of the context or just this is where my brain went. But it was like the separation of the art from the artist.

[KARLI] Mhmm.

[JAMIE] Huh, exactly what I thought like, break being able to make that separation.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Basically the moment a piece of art is released for public consumption, that is, to me when that break happens. Where it's like, the intent of the author becomes unimportant.

[KARLI] No, please explain it to me because I did zero research for this so someone could pretend to be interested...

[A.P.] Great.

[KARLI] In all of the theories and stuff. So— You're pretend to be interested. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Tell me, do tell.

[JAMIE] The best way I found it summarize is death of the author is a literary theory, that the author's intention or biographical facts should hold no weight in determining an interpretation of their work.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Usually understood as a writers view about their own works are no more or less valid than any readers interpretation.

[A.P.] Exactly, yeah. Yeah, my understanding—again, this is like a layman's basic understanding—is in the 60s, Roland Barthes did this essay basically going against what the general thought was in the zeitgeist at the time. Which was like, oh, you know, anytime you read a piece or critique a piece, you have to take into account the author's background and their baggage and all that to really understand it. And he came out saying, like, no, actually the opposite. You need to like completely leave that at door, because it's no longer the author's, it's, you know, it belongs to the reader at that point.

[JAMIE] It's not something I thought intensely about. It was just like you said, A.P., as soon as I heard it, I just assumed what it meant, because I think it's appropriately named.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] To convey what it means. And while I do think, depending on how something is marketed, it can be important author, background and all that. But I prefer to just interpret things how I see them on the page. I guess that's my question to everybody. When it comes to death of the author, where do you stand on it?

[A.P.] I definitely waffled back and forth a little bit, I think I probably lean a little bit more towards the death of the author, because you know, what I'm writing, I'm writing for the reader. And anything that they pick up based off of my background, or my baggage, or my interpretation is cool. And like, I'm into that, but I'm trying to get the reader to feel something and they've got their own, you know, background and, and baggage and all that. So getting them to take something I wrote and personalizing to themselves and their experiences is, is I think, cooler.

[KARLI] Yeah, I do agree with that, building off of what you're saying, having somebody read something you wrote, they are almost never going to get it from your viewpoint, unless they had a very similar upbringing, or, you know, their baggage matches yours. [chuckles] We all have our own point of view. And so having that inform their reading, everybody's going to have a different takeaway of some flavor, because everybody's point of view is different. I think it's more interesting to try to get somebody to get an emotion or a thought across, and then watch what people interpret that based on their own perspective.

[A.P.] You know, having said all that, and agreeing with what you just said, I do still think that the the other way of looking at it, you know, the way that Roland argued against of like taking into account the author's background can be important and can be really fulfilling as well. I think, especially when it comes to voices that have had less representation historically.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] Mhmm.

[A.P.] Obviously, especially in those cases, there's going to be like a huge bridge between maybe a certain reader and the author. And it can be used as excuse to be like, oh, I don't get this, I can't resonate with this, because I haven't had these experiences or whatever. So if you don't understand the experiences of the author, and you can't apply what you're reading to your own experiences, because they just it's a round peg in a square hole or whatever, then I feel like you're missing something. So taking that little bit of extra time, and yeah, it's time and work as a reader. But to understand where the author's coming from and seeing that background. I think it's probably good for everyone involved.

[JAMIE] Yeah. I agree with that. There's, I think it's, I think it's a David Sedaris quote where it's like, you shouldn't have to be from the same origins, to relate to people. We should relate to people because they're people. You can glean so much from reading outside of your own experiences. And that's super valuable. And that's where the backgrounds of authors is important to have more representation because reading fiction also makes people more compassionate and empathetic.

[KARLI] I was gonna bring that up.

[JAMIE] There's like, scientific studies of that.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[A.P.] Totally.

[JAMIE] And then also for clarity, I wanted to mention we're we're talking about, quote unquote, art and fiction, because if you are looking at books, nonfiction, it becomes very important—

[KARLI] Yeah.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] To look at somebody's origin. Non-fiction is not what we're referring to, because that's a whole different bag of cats. [A.P. and Karli chuckle]

[KARLI] Most definitely, yeah, I was gonna bring up the empathy thing, it's important to diversify your reading in order to try to look at life from different perspectives, because there isn't just one way of thinking, or a certain set of ways of thinking. And in order to do that, sometimes I think you do need to look at the author and try to understand where they're coming from, and what their intent was in writing it. And even if you don't end up agreeing with a certain philosophical viewpoint, or whatever, it's worth looking into, because then you know about it, and you're like, oh, that's, that's a thing I didn't know about before. So I agree, I definitely ride the line between the two kind of schools of thought on this, because I am interested in reading the biographies. And I want to know what time period they lived in, if it's modern, or if they're dead or alive, or what historical events were going on when they were writing because as writers, we... it's impossible to create in a vacuum. Our writing is informed based on our lives and the things that we experience and what we interpret, how we interpret the world around us. So I think that even if we don't, aren't trying to put that into our writing, it comes out because writing is a very cerebral and emotional thing. It's impossible to write a thing and not have your personality in it, unless you go back and delete it all out. But I mean…

[A.P.] Totally.

[KARLI] I don't think that that kind of stuff sells, because the reason we read is to have an emotional connection.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I definitely want people to use their, their personality and background in their writing. It's like the after the fact like, everything is going to be interpreted. You mentioned like looking at when it was written and what was going on in the world. Like, I almost feel like that's separate from the author, I would be more likely to be like, well, this book was published in 1964. So I'm aware of like the climate in 1964. And that's something to me, that is separate from the death of the author, like those are two different things.

[KARLI] Yes, yeah. That makes sense.

[A.P.] Yeah, I could see that. Because I think you're right. Yeah. Because a lot of this, in my mind, is like the intent of the author versus what they actually put on the page.

[KARLI] Yeah. Because sometimes, what you put on the page isn't, what your intention was. [chuckling]

[A.P.] Yeah, yeah.

[JAMIE] I recently had a meeting with somebody where I was like, I don't know if they didn't convey this. Or if it wasn't like what you intent sometimes doesn't always make it to the page. And so if you want that you need feedback to be like, hey, did I convey this? Not everybody is going to pick up on it, but they definitely can't pick up on it if it's not there.

[A.P.] Yeah, definitely. Like I was, I did want to talk about like, critique. And yeah, this comes to mind because we were talking about this, Jamie last week. How much of your intent you want to put on the page, versus like, you know, hammering someone over the head with it, because you like want them to get it but you don't have control over like what the reader gets and doesn't get. So you can just put what you think is sufficient for X amount of percentage of people to get it or people who you think might get it will get it but...

[KARLI] Not everybody's gonna get it.

[A.P.] It's tough to know.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's ineffable. [A.P. and Karli chuckle] Never know, what will be interpreted.

[A.P.] And, and that's when the death of the author is the thing. You know, like, once it's out there, you know, you can't change it. You can't like talk to every reader and be like, no, this is what I meant. And this is you know, where I'm coming from. It's like, no, it's their own personal thing.

[KARLI] I mean, I think that that's a whole can of worms, because like some authors do try to do. [laughing]

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I equate it to the same as explaining a joke. Like everybody loves when you have a joke explained. [all chuckle] If you wanted it in there, you should have put it in there. Don't, don't backpedal. Like, just let it go.

[KARLI] And I think that that going back to what we guys were talking about, with the importance of critique, and the importance of honesty, from people who are reading your work, people being—that is the time to be honest, you don't have to be brutally, so but...

[JAMIE] Sometimes you do.

[KARLI] Yeah. When you're reading for somebody else, it's not helpful to sugarcoat. If there's something that popped up for you or you were like, this is my reaction to this, especially when it's something more intense or potentially controversial or hurtful. It's important to note it because the author may not have realized that they did that thing. If you're going to critique for people or beta read for people or whatever, then that's part of the package, is pointing out those things.

[JAMIE] Yeah, that in itself can be nerve racking. I recently did that with A.P., where I was like, This is what I'm interpreting. And in my head, I was like, I could be totally off base. I could be 100% going in the...

[A.P.] I feel like you nailed it. I was like, yeah, she got it.

[JAMIE] But inside, I was like, I could be totally like, looking into things that are totally different. But that is where my mind went, and what I interpreted the story to be. That way the author knows, this is where you're taking me in this story?

[A.P.] Yeah, that's invaluable. Like that—I was gonna say the flip side of what you're saying is that as someone was writing, you want to get broad and diverse feedback so that you can see who gets it who doesn't get it? If no one gets it, then you're like, I didn't put it on the page. But if like, half the people get it, then you have this kind of like moment where like, is half enough? Like, do I want it to be kind of this thing? Where it's like, some people get it, some people don't?

[KARLI] Do I need to draw it forward more so that more people get it? Or am I satisfied with that point? For sure.

[A.P.] Exactly. If only one out of ten people got it. That's what I'm going for. [all laugh]

[KARLI] Perfect.

[JAMIE] It's so funny, because there's like a point in death of the author, as writers where you're like, you either get it or you don't. And it feels like such an artist thing. That mentality and be like, you just don't get it.

[A.P.] It's just not for you. [all laugh]

[JAMIE] You have to like let that go. And to give something to like the broader world.

[A.P.] Yeah, yeah.

[JAMIE] I like death of the author. And I use it in a lot of like, aspects of like, actors as well. There's a lot of actors that do things I disagree with. There are movies that they've put out that I love, and I'll watch over and over again. Like it's that separating the art from the artist.

[A.P.] Yeah, that's, that's, I'm glad we're talking about that, because that's definitely something that comes to mind. I mean, like, I grew up reading Lovecraft, you know, and that dude was...

[KARLI] [laughing] Highly problematic.

[A.P.] Racist, sexist, and a f*@%ing weirdo. You know, but I've come to terms with liking some of his work, because anytime I consume his work, I'm not giving him money because he's dead.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[A.P.] You know like, I'm not financially supporting a xenophobic weirdo.

[KARLI] And I was gonna ask how everybody felt about that. Because I think that that's where you start to come into play with this, where it's like, okay, you like the art, and you're separating the art from the artists. But then yeah, then there's the money aspect that you're financially supporting somebody that you disagree with, and where do we draw that line? How do we make those choices and stuff it gets really, it gets really murky really fast.

[JAMIE] It really just depends on the situation, whether you're really give—directly, or indirectly giving money to said artists, like, if I stream it on Netflix, is it benefiting that particular person or whatever? Like, is it gonna make a big difference if I get it from the library? Or like, whatever the situation is. That's a personal choice.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah.

[A.P.] Yeah. I've told myself that there's like a direct link to essentially me giving them money, then I just can't do it anymore. So like, when, when this stuff came out about Marilyn Manson, I was like, alright, well, I'm taking it off of Spotify. Like, I'm not, I'm not gonna be listening to you anymore.

[JAMIE] And you, Karli?

[KARLI] And me?

[JAMIE] Your opinion about contributing?

[KARLI] Oh, I mean, I'm the same as you guys on that. Like, there's some depends on the situation, what it is, who it is, what's happening with that, whether or not I you know, and it's, it's murky, but I yeah, there's things people that I actively want support. And sometimes there are people that people are like, I don't agree with them. I'm like, I don't agree with them either. But I don't think that they're hurting anybody by having a different opinion.

[JAMIE] The most obvious, and I feel like the easiest example of this is like, I grew up reading and loving Harry Potter.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And I still reread and love and watch the movies all the time. And that'll probably never change. But am I buying any new books from person—She Who Will Not Be Named. [all laugh]

[KARLI] Yeah.

[A.P.] Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought her up. Because when he talked about the death of the author, before we started this podcast that I immediately thought of that, because it's like the, the original seven books exist. And then also, she comes back and says all kinds of things that weren't in the texts, and it's like, oh, well, actually this and actually that, it's like, no, shut up. Like...

[JAMIE] I believe that. Sure. She may or may not have believed whatever she's saying. But like we said, once it comes out, that is no longer any more or less valid than any readers interpretation. [chuckling] That's like, you can think that, that's fine. I'm gonna think this, because the text I read, I interpreted this way.

[KARLI] Yeah, I don't believe that the text that I read supported that line of thinking, and yeah, you published it, you're like, that's it, you're done. I mean, there's no, there's no takebacksies.

[A.P.] Yeah, it's like she's writing her own fanfiction at this point. [Jamie and Karli chuckle]

[KARLI] When authors try to come in and adjust or defend their decision making process, I think it winds up just making a much bigger mess than if they just didn't say anything at all. Author's trying to defend or change or whatever, like you published it, like, you got to just leave it and walk away. And I'm sure, having not published anything, I feel like I can say that with a certain amount of, you know, maybe sounds a little flippant, because emotionally, it's difficult to let our art go.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] So I get why people feel the need to do that.

[A.P.] But also, just engaging in online discourse, when it comes to these kinds of things like shutting the f*@% up is free, you know? [all laugh]

[KARLI] Sure is, please do it.

[A.P.] Doesn't cost you a cent. If you want it in the text, put it in the text. And then the murky part comes when like, you're asked, well, what did you mean by this? If it's like some stranger on the internet, that's one thing. But if you become the sort of author who's like doing interviews or going to events, there is a chance that you're going to be asked, and I feel like you're within your right to answer that question. And some people will take that as gospel. Yeah, authors allowed to have their own opinion, too. But like, you don't have to. Yeah, totally. Like, like, I've seen so many authors be so artful about that stuff. And be like, well, you know, like, what did you think I meant? Or like, you know, this is kind of what I was thinking when I was writing it, but what was your interpretation? Like, there's so many ways to handle that. It's like, don't don't take that from the reader, you know?

[KARLI] Well, and I think that that's the whole thing with art. It's interpretive.

[JAMIE] Yeah, cuz I can think of several pieces of art. I say art, but I'm like thinking of like Avatar, The Last Airbender, which is art, but it's also a children's cartoon. So you know, but there's different pieces that I can think of where I've heard people's interpretations of it. And they are different than my interpretation. Where I'm like, I can see exactly why you made that interpretation. Makes sense, as well as this other interpretation. It's just these few little shifts, it could mean this, or it could mean that. That's the thing that I love about fiction in art, is it means different things to different people. And that's one of the things that makes art so valuable. It can speak to multiple people in multiple different places. And you guys both mentioned, evoke an emotion. And that's where the magic of art having the potential to be a transformative form. Art is so undervalued, and you're like, why? Have you seen what it can do?

[A.P.] Yeah.  Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah. I mean, I've even had things that I've read at different times in my life where I've gotten something different out of it each time.

[A.P.] Totally, yeah.

[KARLI] And I love that about it.

[A.P.] Yeah, like you said earlier, we don't write in a vacuum. We don't read in a vacuum either.

[KARLI] Yeah. And at different times in our life, we're going through different things. And we're more aware of different, hopefully, we're becoming more aware of other things in the world and other people—

[A.P.] [dramatic voice] More aware of the pain. [all laugh]

[KARLI] That too.

[JAMIE] We covered it all so well. Damn, we're eloquent. [all chuckle]

[A.P.] Yes, that's definitely the word that I would use.

[JAMIE] So as far as death of the author goes, in being a writer and finding the lines of where you kind of separate yourself from something, I think we kind of touched on it a little about you needing to have other people read and interpret it. That's like the big thing, especially if I have something that is supposed to be not maybe explicit on the page. I had multiple people read it. And then I kind of do my own poll of who's picking up on what aspects and then I will do another pass and get even more people and even more different people to see if those aspects are coming through enough. That's your time to, to hone that. [chuckles] And maybe that's one of the reasons why so many authors spend so much time working on something is because they're very worried about conveying exactly what they wanted to convey in the story. And so we spend years sometimes editing to be the perfect interpretation of what we wanted to achieve. When no matter how long you do that it's still going to go out there and people are going to interpret it differently. [chuckles]

[A.P.] Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, we talked sounded a little bit before and based on what you just said, I think got me thinking about intention again, you know, you wrote this piece and you got feedback. And then it's up to you to decide to have the intent. How much understanding do I want people to have of this? Like, how many people do I want to understand this? How hard do I want to hit this point? So I feel like as long as you are with intention, writing stuff, then whatever comes out is the best interpretation of, of what you're writing that you can do. Like, if you're okay, with only a portion of your readers getting it the way that you do and you're doing that with intention, then that's great. If you're writing something, and you want everyone to understand perfectly what you're saying, then you really need to work at that and be like, just really hanging a lantern on whatever point you're trying to make.

[KARLI] Yeah, I think that that's really my biggest challenge. When I started writing, I wanted people to see it exactly how I had envisioned it. And that became crippling, to the point where I stopped writing for a while. So coming back to it the last couple of years, I've been trying really hard to just do my best. And then, now I need to get to the point where I let other people read it, so that they can tell me what they think. And then, like Jamie was saying, you take the temperature. Is that what I want? Am I okay with this? Is it okay that certain people feel this way about this character? Do I need to change this character? Or am I comfortable with there being multiple schools of thought on how this person is or how this theme came across or whatever? It's challenging to say the least.

[JAMIE] With what you were saying about intention, A.P., that's one of those things where like, it might take writers a while to get there. But that becomes like taking agency over your own writing.

[A.P.] Totally.

[KARLI] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] Because sometimes it will be very easy. And sometimes it will be very difficult to take a piece of feedback, and completely disregard it. Yeah. Because there are times where you're like, oh, this person interpreted this theme completely opposite. Does that mean I'm going to change it? No. Yeah, that's like a whole different level that you have to develop and get to that point. Sometimes it's easy, because you're like, oh, this person doesn't understand any of this, disregard it all. And then there's other times where you're like, Well, I really trust this person's opinion. But I still am making the choice as the author of this piece, to make this creative choice.

[A.P.] Totally. Like when I send stuff out for feedback, I know who I'm sending it to. So I know sort of kind of like their headspace their background and stuff like that. So. So like that piece that I sent out, The Jungle Cruise as I call it in my head. [all laugh]

[KARLI] I love that.

[A.P.] I you know, I sent it to several people I know that have like zero experience with like Latin American literature and magical realism. And I wanted to see, you know, what their tolerance was for that kind of stuff. Because I'm, you know, I'm trying to publish that in a western centric market. So I was mostly okay with them being confused. [Jamie and Karli laugh] You know? I'm like, Yes. Excellent, perfect.

[KARLI] What I wanted muahahaha. [A.P. chuckles]

[A.P.] So, yeah, like context of who's reading it context within yourself and then the intent as the as the author to, you know, choose the right words.

[JAMIE] That's, it's interesting to think that because we're talking about death of the author, but death of the author does not exist in critique feedback.

[KARLI] No.

[JAMIE] It is very important to take into account who wrote it down and their background.

[KARLI] Yes. Absolutely.

[A.P.] Totally. Yeah.

[JAMIE] All right. Unless anybody else has anything vital to say... [chuckling]

[A.P.] Check your lint traps in your dryer. [Karli laughs] Make sure to empty those after every use.

[JAMIE] Is that your Two-cent Recommendation?

[A.P.] No, that's that's a freebie.

[KARLI] [laughs] Bonus.

[A.P.] What is my Two Cent one? Wash your dishwasher. Like run the clean cycle in your dishwasher.

[JAMIE] Isn't your dishwasher self cleaning?

[A.P.] No, no, no. You have to run when it's empty with like vinegar, you know, like clean out the filter, stuff like that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, that's true.

[A.P.] Real important things. [laughing]

[KARLI] Wow.

[JAMIE] Thanks for joining us. You can find A.P. on social media @apthayer and his website is apthayer.com. Pick up his most recent publication, "Why The Grey Bird Sings" in the April issue of Dark Recesses Press. And thank you for joining us A.P.

[KARLI] Yes.

[A.P.] Thank you for having me. Always, always a pleasure.

[KARLI] We're always happy to have you.

[JAMIE] Thanks for listening. Follow and leave us a review. Find us on social media @theactbreak_podcast or @theactbreak_. Head over to our website, scifiohmy.com/podcast to find transcripts for all of this seasons episodes and sign up for our newsletter. I think thats... [laughs]

[KARLI] We did it! Yay!

[JAMIE] Talk to you later.

[A.P.] Bye.

[KARLI] Bye.