S2 Ep.18 Fun & Games / The Murky Middle

Fun & Games - Transcript

[JAMIE] Preparing for these always like makes me be like hmm. Looking at fun and games; that's kind of like your mid 30s are kind of the fun and games leading up to whatever this midpoint is. Which makes sense why it's such a mess. [both chuckle]

[KARLI] That tracks. Yeah, I was wondering where you were going with this and like it's the squishy place where like I'm getting squishy?

[JAMIE] It's just a mess. Everything has gone wrong.

[KARLI] We're way out in the weeds in our lives. [laughs]

[JAMIE] But unlike a good story, my fun and games is not making good on the promise of the premise. [both laugh]

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Welcome back to The Act Break Podcast, the podcast with literally 10s of listeners. [Karli laughs] It's okay to be impressed everybody. I am Jamie react, floundering aspiring author and I am joined by...

[KARLI] Karli, the writer who can never seem to get past the fun and games stage of her stories. [Jamie chuckles] So really happy to be here talking about this particular topic today.

[JAMIE] It's not an easy topic either, because it's the worst. So thanks for being here. Today, we decided to talk about something it seems most of us writers struggle with at one time or another or all the time maybe [Karli chuckles] is that pesky middle portion of the story. That wobbly middly bit leading up to and including the midpoint of your story. If you are familiar with Blake Snyder's beat sheet, this would include the B story, fun and games, and midpoint—emphasis on the fun and games today.

[KARLI] Yeah. The fun and games is it's definitely more aptly named the murky middle for me, I don't have fun while doing the fun and games.

[JAMIE] It's much more of a...

[KARLI] It's much more of a dank swamp.

[JAMIE] Swimming through a marshland. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] Getting stuck. And my boot comes off in the mud with that squelching sound. It's bad, it's bad.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I could just see you and you look behind you and you're like, leave it.

[KARLI] Leave the boot. Nobody needs it.

[BOTH] It's not worth it.

[JAMIE] How do you approach your murky middle when you're coming up to it?

[KARLI] Whooo. I've put a lot of thought into this actually, even before preparing for this episode. Because it is it's my weakest spot. If I can get past the fun and games and hit the midpoint. It's usually like a down—like, you know, downhill, not like downhill going bad—but like, you know, I can just roll downhill to the end and it's fine. Typically, my approach to Fun and Games is "pants it, it doesn't matter!" And then I get stuck. And I think that that's because that's the one part of my story I probably shouldn't pants, I should prepare it a little bit more. So I have actually more recently been trying to like sit down and think, okay, what are the steps that they need to do and the things that need to happen in order to get them to the midpoint? Because I usually have a pretty good idea of like, where my midpoint should be what I want to happen, because it's usually something more exciting.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Like I said, I'm—this ain't my strong suit.

[JAMIE] Well, this episode should help all of us. What's funny about being a writer is a lot of people have the same advice, but it's because you have to hear it over and over again.

[KARLI] [laughing] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Personally besides the finale, this is the hardest part. I mean, sometimes depending on the story, it's harder than the finale. But for me, this is always like the most challenging section to get to work correctly.

[KARLI] Yeah. Because you want that really good lead up. So how do you go about that? The approach of the thing.

[JAMIE] I used to struggle even more, but there was this one concept in Save the Cat that usually saves me now.

[KARLI] You have been saved. You're the cat?

[JAMIE] Yes, I am the cat. "Hang in There." Just like the poster. [Karli laughs] Is that fun and games is where you make good on the promise of the premise. If I pitched a romp through the multiverse, this is where all the romping would happen. In a rom-com, this is where the happy falling in love part happens. It's the last deep exhale before the turn of the story. Because at your midpoint, everything shifts and changes. At that point, all the stakes go higher. So it's this last opportunity to have things that fit in to the before of your story. But even knowing that, it's still the part where I'm like, okay, but what does that mean for the story? [chuckles]

[KARLI] Right?

[JAMIE] Like, what needs to happen? Now that we have the details of what funding games, quote unquote, murky middle is, we're gonna kind of talk about why it's important, because everybody gives so much attention to how your story starts, to hook people, and how it ends to give them a satisfying ending. But really, the middle part is just as important.

[KARLI] Cause it's the whole, the whole thing.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's why your reader picked up your book, especially if you're making good on whatever promise you've given them, which also directly correlates to genre expectations, and yada, yada, which we won't go into.

[KARLI] But that's a thing.

[JAMIE] That's a factor. [laughs] So I have like, what are some ways to approach it. And I was like, oh, perfect, because Karli touched on this when you were talking about it. The first step would be to figure out what your midpoint or the turn of the story is, then I know what the fund and games needs to end up at. Like you said, it's kind of the point where you really do need to plan some, because if you don't know what your middle is, you don't know what needs to happen to get to that point.

[KARLI] Yeah, I was just thinking of Wizard of Oz. Like, I don't know, all of a sudden in my brain, there was Wizard of Oz happening. You know, it's like they're trying to get to the Emerald City. And they have to go down the yellow brick road like that's, that's the fun and games, is them traveling down the yellow brick road to get to the Emerald City.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Whenever I like think of fun and games. It's really applicable in travel stories. Which are one of my favorite type of stories.

[JAMIE] Yeah, same. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Because anytime they're going from one location to the other, it's the adventures they're going to have on the road.

[KARLI] Yes, but I think that that's part of the thing that hangs me up is because I love travel stories. And I want to write travel stories. But it can't just be like anything happening. I mean, you could throw random events at them for sure. But your characters have to be reacting to it in a way that leads to the midpoint that makes it makes sense for that character to make a certain decision or whatever with whatever event happens at the midpoint. So you can't just be like, oh, yeah, like, and now they're going to meet this guy for no reason. And then he's going to disappear, [laughing] never appear again on the screen.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] You have to know the destination of the travel. And that's metaphorical doesn't mean that your destination literally is your midpoint. It's just the direction that they need to go in. Your midpoint could happen while travel is going on. Because your midpoint could just be the point in the story that your protagonist decides that everything they were going for was wrong. Or they decide to switch sides or they have a big realization, like, it could be anything.

[KARLI] Yeah, they change directions, they realize that their plan isn't going to work.

[JAMIE] But that's why figuring out your midpoint would be step one to me. Know where you're going.

[KARLI] See, I want to play devil's advocate here.

[JAMIE] Okay.

[KARLI] Because some people are discovery writers. And they don't want to plan that out. And they want to write to figure out where they're going. So I feel like, yes, that could potentially be very helpful to people; is knowing where they're going for the midpoint. But also, it could be... well, I guess you did kind of already say that in the sense of like, it doesn't have to be an actual like destination or event that you have in mind just knowing where you're going with the characters um...

[JAMIE] And also, I just feel like if there are people who are mostly pantsers writers, I'm not a pantser writer, so I couldn't give that person right advice on how to do that.

[KARLI] I just wanted to like point that out. Since you were like, yeah, figure, like just know where you're going. And so I just wanted to touch on that.

[JAMIE] I mean, I feel like even discovery writers, as long as you know where you're going, you can still discovery write yourself from one point to that point. A lot of things can happen in between those two that don't have to be determined in advance. You just have to know, well, eventually, we need to come to this point.

[KARLI] Yeah. Which is where I finally got to. I wanted to be discovery writer, like all the way just like, I don't want to play in anything. And I found that that actually didn't work for me. I just got lost in the murky swamp, and my boots are gone. And then I got to a point where yeah, I had to pick a thing that I was working towards, and then I was like, okay, well, if they're gonna go to this place, or if this is the thing that's going to happen, then what are some logical things that could happen along the way, or logical or fun or things that make it make sense.

[JAMIE] Yeah. My step two would be character goals. Character goals can help tell you what should be happening. Much like I was saying with like, it could be when your character realizes something, or depending on their arc, what types of things they need to experience to take them from where they started to where they're going. That could be the traumas they face along the road. You think fun and games, but that doesn't actually mean that everything's [laughing] fun and games. No, it could actually be very horrific.

[KARLI] Little bit more like a Saw game. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Yikes. But those character goals of growth can tell you what needs to be happening. If they lose someone or they win a million dollars, it can be anything!

[KARLI] Yeah, I honestly think that the easiest way out of that plight I find myself in is to actually take a look at my characters. Like if I don't know what event I'm working towards, or location I'm working towards, because I haven't planned it out yet. And I don't have an idea for it yet. Taking the time to look at my characters and going okay, what is it I'm doing with this character? What do they want, even if I don't know where that character is going to end up. Or even what decision they're going to make at the midpoint. When I'm in the fun and games I'm just trying to figure out, okay, who are they right now? What is their main motivation? What are they going for? What is it that they want most right now? And then making things happen to really solidify that in that character, or make them doubt that depending on what I feel like could be most interesting. And then that tends to naturally bring me to a better midpoint.

[JAMIE] Great point, because what your character wants and what their motivations are, and what actually ends up happening, don't have to be the same thing.

[KARLI] No.

[JAMIE] The next thing I thought about was that mid sections are where your B story has room to grow and shine. And then you can also use your B story as a spotlight for your themes in this section.

[KARLI] Which we touched on in the companion episode. Yeah. I agree with that assessment.

[JAMIE] Just like anything else, B stories could be a plethora of things. But because this section of the book, I feel like it's got more room to be like, let's focus on this little side story. Because the things they're dealing with or the themes will then play into the finale. Yeah. So that's another thing to think about when you're like, what goes here? B story.

[KARLI] Yeah, for sure. And I think for me, that's one of the reasons I struggle, because I either go way too far out in the weeds, or I'm afraid I'm going to do that. And then I don't do enough stuff in that section.

[JAMIE] Which I think is funny because your secondary characters often shine. And they're the ones who carry a B story. And I know for a fact that many people have given you feedback of, I want more of this particular character.

[KARLI] Right? [Jamie laughs] I know and it's so funny we and thank you for saying that though. Because that actually really helped me with what I'm working on right now. Because suddenly I'm writing this and I'm like, this side character is suddenly, has so much more space, but I really like it, but I'm like, but my main characters, it's okay. It's okay. They're there too. There's space for everybody. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Another thing, this is a good place to put or flesh out, is relationships, make or break. They don't have to be romantic, any type of relationship. This could be where your people bond through experiences. This could be where they're pushed to their breaking point.

[KARLI] Yeah, I was gonna say people great against each other and you know that like something's gonna happen. But what?

[JAMIE] Yeah, and so this is also where I think this has the most potential and is, in my robot writer, structure brain, this is where that goes.

[KARLI] Put it here. [laughs]

[JAMIE] It should be laced throughout, but it should definitely have a lot of room to breathe in this section.

[KARLI] Yeah, definitely. Because this section is where you're still getting to know the characters. You're still getting used to the world. You're still figuring out where we're going with all of this, like what is this all going to be about? Taking the time to flesh these things out... This is the place where you take room for all of that.

[JAMIE] My last kind of uh, advice, which is like, this is just a thing you can try, is what I call the no bad ideas portion of developing your story. This is how I work when I'm plotting where I'm like, oh, it's fun and games, I'm going to grab some index cards. And I'm going to start writing on each of them. Every like random, what could happen in this section? This is just like opportunities. This is the multiverse, anything could happen.

[KARLI] [chuckles] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I'm going to put it all down. And then I'm going to rearrange it. And then I'm going to cut some of it out. And you don't need to use every idea you have. You just word vomit them all out. [laughs] So then you can put them next to each other and find out which ones are good. And which ones are vomit. [both chuckle]

[KARLI] I agree. In theory. [laughs] I am not as good at doing that, which is really weird. Because like as a more of a pantser you would think or just be like, oh, it's fine, I can write anything. But I don't. I get really like in my head about it. And I don't take enough time to just put anything down just to try it and see what happens. Because I'm so nervous I'm gonna go out in the weeds, I overcorrect. I go too far the other way. And I completely agree with you that there, at this stage, you're still drafting, there really aren't any bad ideas at this point. Because even if it seems silly, like it could lead you to another thought or maybe you are able to flesh that silly thought out and make it less silly. Or if it's a silly story, then you know, embrace it. But you know what I mean.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and I would say don't put a lot of thought into it. The way I would go about it would be like, index card: What if they get a flat tire? Index card: What if they lose grandma? What if they like yada yada, yada? It's just like a big "what if" section. And then once I decide like what ideas sound the best, then I go back. It's an if, then scenario. If this happens, then this will need to happen. Nobody thinks that I'm like writing paragraphs of each idea. It's just like throwing spaghetti [laughing] at the wall.

[KARLI] At the wall and seeing what sticks? Yeah, well, and I've, I've definitely done that before, if I'm gonna have block, it's usually here to the point where like, I can't even think of things because I'm so in my head about it. There are actually like, idea generators and stuff on the internet. Like, if you're having that hard a time, like cycle through some of those. I mean, some of them are gonna be like, definitely not a fit, but you never know, like, what might like, click for you, if you read through those. And I've even like, done—gone so far as to like, read some and be like, I none of that sounds good to me. But I'm gonna write them all down anyways, because the tactile like pen to paper kind of starts getting me out of my head with writing things. And that's been very helpful in the past. So yeah.

[JAMIE] That's a good one.

[KARLI] How do you go about figuring out the importance of time spent on your B story and stuff during this section? Do you have tools or ideas or something like that, that helps you with this?

[JAMIE] I'm thinking about it because I literally am like, here's the most recent thing, uh...

[KARLI] She's got a whole stack of index cards, guys. She's flipping through a whole stack.

[JAMIE] They're numbered. They're also divided by paper clip.

[KARLI] They're color coded and everything, I bet.

[JAMIE] They're, these ones aren't color coded.

[KARLI] Oh, disappointed.

[JAMIE] Yet. [both laugh] I have Blake Snyder's beat sheet, the original for screenplays, and I know I've said this another podcast, but it is the only book on writing that I referenced back to doesn't work for everybody. There's a novel version do with that what you will. Karli asked me a question, so I'm answering. [laughing] And that's to look at Blake Snyder's beat sheet. So your question was basically like, how much time do you spend on this particular thing? What I consider like fun and games, even though it's the eighth beat in the thing, I consider that like, B story, fun, and games and midpoint kind of all go together. When you're thinking of like a five act structure, that would be act three. And it just depends on the story. Break into two which is you know, when your protagonist is like actively choosing to participate in what's going on.

[KARLI] Not just reactionary.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Where they've hopefully done something protagonisty.

[KARLI] They're protagging just a little bit at this point.

[JAMIE] Yeah, they're protagging. And then that's going to be like, oh, your your experiences now that you've made that choice leading up to the midpoint that is like basically your first taste of consequences for whatever choice you've made.

[KARLI] Mm. I like the way you said that.

[JAMIE] It just kind of depends, it just is figuring out your midpoint and figuring out all the little steps that have to happen for your character for it to make sense that they've come to the midpoint. So how many, how long it takes you or how to do that depends on your genre and how you write and your writing style.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, that's true.

[JAMIE] But all the plot points need to be there. Because if you're like, oh, they've chosen this, and this is their midpoint. And there's not a logical progression of choices and situations that lead to the midpoint, then your readers aren't going to buy it.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So it's, as long as all the plot points in this section for everything to make sense. That's how long it will be. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. And you do the best you can with it. And then you have, have your people read it and let you know. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Like we said, if you write a bunch of things down, all those ideas I had, a plot point needs to be hidden within each of those.

[KARLI] Yeah, there needs to be something...

[JAMIE] I just finished editing a book. And in it, I have like a whole section, these two, one to two chapters, were completely unnecessary. I can cut them out. And it won't make a bit of difference.

[KARLI] If yeah, if you can do that, then obviously you have a problem. Either put something in there so that you can keep it or just remove them. If you can't. I had while you were talking a memory of you laying out index cards on my table for Twilight of Gods and we had color coded them and you're like, see this color, there's like there's too much space between this color and that color like you you have a very like visual mind where you're like, see this, like there's not going to be enough for it to make sense for this character. I was like, oh, ohh!

[JAMIE] Yeah. Ohhh!

[KARLI] Oh, I see.

[JAMIE] And it also depends on like, how you want to balance your book.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely.

[JAMIE] But also, the industry has changed, because it's like, well, if you think about like The Lord of the Rings, sometimes you can go huge amounts of time without seeing characters. It's different now.

[KARLI] I was so mad about how long I had to wait to find out if Pippin was dead or not.

[JAMIE] I was just gonna say like, Merry and Pippin. You're like, where are they? What's happening?

[KARLI] Are they dead?

[JAMIE] Oh my gosh, where are the halflings?! The sum up, fun and games can be lower stakes, plot wise, but it still requires plot, 'cause it's just as important as your beginning and your end.

[KARLI] Yes, we need to feel when we reach the midpoint, like we... it was time well spent.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Because this is the point where it could easily be that your readers decide to put your book down.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And so it still needs that purpose. It still needs to be just as captivating. You need to keep them interested in the middle to want and care about your end.

[KARLI] Yep.

[JAMIE] You are not alone. It's just a hard section of the book, writer.

[KARLI] [laughing] Yes.

[JAMIE] It's—we've all been. And if you haven't been there—

[KARLI] [dramatic whisper] You will be.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] That was so much nicer than when I was gonna say. [Karli laughs] Do you have a two cent recommendation?

[KARLI] Here's my recommendation for this week. Look at one of your favorite books or movies, and watch it again, with a notebook and take notes about the things that are happening to your, to the characters, after the catalyst. Okay, there's that big, you know, thing that happens that sends them off on their adventure and things start happening before the middle of the movie, start taking notes about what happens. What are their reactions to it? What, how does that bring them to the decision that they make in the midpoint? And then think about that for your story.

[JAMIE] Great recommendation. And thanks for listening, subscribe and write a review if you, you know, you feel like it. Or if you don't feel like it. No, definitely only if you feel like it. Like if you feel really good and like super, super generous. [Karli chuckles] Then write a review. Links to our social media are in the episode description, as well as the transcript link. Good luck on your fun and games and we will talk to you next week.

[KARLI] Bye, internet friends.