S2 Ep.13 Building Character with Kim Chance

Building Character - Transcript

[KARLI] I have been relegated to the closet again.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] Your mechanic is monopolizing the office with his intense gaming needs.

[KARLI] [laughs] I mean, that could be a factor. But also my house is chaos today. And I, I act like it's such a big deal, but the sound is so much better in here. And I've got like, there's a spot for everything like my sticky notes are on the little bin in front of me and notes aren't underneath the mic like they usually are. And like, my clean—my clean canteen fits in my little boot hole. So it's perfect.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] It’s in a little boot hole.

[KARLI] It's a boot hole.

[JAMIE] You're a regular Harry Potter. [both laugh] Just happy to be in your little space. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yay.

[JAMIE] You always seem gleeful to be there.

[KARLI] You know, it's really funny. There's something about it that I actually genuinely enjoy other than my legs going dead. I love it. It's a good time.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] Wel—[coughs then chuckles]

[KIM] Welcome to the Act Break Podcast.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I mean, hey, take it away.

[KIM] I listen every week, I feel like I could do the intro.

[KARLI] You've been here before.

[KIM] It's true.

[JAMIE] That warms my cold, dead heart.

[KARLI] Alright. Welcome back to The Act Break, where at least 50% of us know what we're doing about a quarter percent of the time. I am Karli. And so excited to be here with our guest today. And I brought that up before Jamie even got to say hi.

[JAMIE] [laughs] I am not excited at all. And I'm also not Jamie. I just want to come out of the gate with lies. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] Fair. Kim, did you want to introduce yourself today or would you like me to say things about you?

[KIM] Hello, I'm Kim Chance. And I am an author. And I'm here to talk authorly, writerly, story things with you gals. Hello, everyone.

[JAMIE] Welcome. Thanks for coming back to Season Two.

[KIM] Season two. I'm so excited to be back with you ladies tonight.

[JAMIE] We made it to season two. And you definitely helped with that. All of our guests last season really made this season possible. And I just want to throw that out there. [chuckles]

[KIM] It was a pretty epic lineup. I listened to every episode. And I have to say it was a it was a great season. So I'm excited to see what season two has in store.

[JAMIE] Oh.

[KARLI] Thank you. I mean...

[KIM] No pressure.

[JAMIE] I don't like there to be expectations.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Oh, I'm sweating bullets already. We've already talked to some really fantastic people. So it's very exciting. It's a good time here.

[KIM] That's awesome.

[JAMIE] We have to say that because they're the same people we talked to last season. [chuckles]

[KIM] Well you know, internet friends are the best. I love it.

[KARLI] They really are. So thank you, thank you for coming back.

[KIM] Happy to be here.

[KARLI] So let's just dive in. Today's topic is characterization.

[KIM] One of my favorite things. I'm so excited.

[JAMIE] It builds character. [Kim chuckles]

[KARLI] It builds character, it does. From conception to actualization. What characterization is what it does, and hopefully how to do it. That's what we're doing here today. So, Jamie, do you have a definition?

[KARLI] Oh, my God, what?

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Well, I've stopped looking up like it was a very nebulous, fine, I'll do what I did last time. And I'll just...

[KARLI] Pull one out of your ass?

[JAMIE] Make it up as I go. Characterization is the thing that makes your character seem believable, like they are a person that might exist in real life. They usually have a consistency to them in a way that once you get to know them, you might know how they react to things. We're gonna go over a bunch of points on that matter. But I would just say that in general, it's the personality and the makeup that define your character.

[KIM] Yeah, I like to think of it as a recipe. Because it's all of the ingredients that make up a whole. And so there's so many things that go into creating a character, personality, you know, looks, how they talk, how they think, how they react to things, like there's so many different things. So it's like a recipe, all the different elements that make up a person. The construction of a person.

[KARLI] I like that because nobody wants to eat a cardboard cutout. [Kim laughs]

[KIM] I hope not.

[KARLI] Do you like that? Mixed metaphors? I know, I did a really good job. [Kim chuckles] Alright, well, I figured we could start with character arcs. Most of the ones that we see are what, like positive change, negative change, and a flat arc. I mean, I think that there might be kind of some more nebulous ones, but I feel like those...

[KIM] The standard ones.

[KARLI] Most characters can fit into one of those three.

[KIM] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Do we want to each do one?

[KARLI] Sure. Kim, do you want to take the positive?

[KIM] Sure.

[KARLI] Jamie, I feel like you can take the flat arc because I know that that's your favorite anyways.

[JAMIE] Okay. [laughs]

[KARLI] Is that okay with you? Yeah, that's all right. Great. Alright, Kim, you want to start with the positive?

[KIM] Yes, I'm glad you're letting me go first. Because if my idea of what a positive arc is wrong, you can, you guys can just like, cut me out and start over.

[JAMIE] We're all going to be like wait, wait, to each other.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Listen, this is clearly a panel of experts here. So let me just push my glasses up and get to work.

[KIM] Yes. I mean, I think for me, the definition of a positive arc is a very standard, what you see of your protagonist or the hero—I mean, not always—there’s, with characterization, there's going to be exceptions to like everything that we say. But I think for me, it is kind of this standard, where they start out as one thing, and over the course of the story, they change in a positive way, like they show growth, by the end of the story. Who they are at the very beginning of the story is not who they are at the end of the story. And they've grown exponentially in a very positive way. Like even if the events that have occurred were somewhat negative or sad, or whatever the character has grown and will be able to move forward in a positive way. How'd I do?

[KARLI] I love that, fantastic. [Kim chuckles] No notes. Building on that the negative change arc is similar in the sense that who they are at the beginning is not necessarily who they are at the end. [chuckles] But they don't really grow and change to become a better human being or creature or whatever it is that you're writing, the things that they encounter, tend to lead them on a downward trend. This is usually like the villain origin story, or just simply a character falling into a descent of... a tragedy. It is how you format their personal story into a tragedy.

[JAMIE] It's like when your character doesn't necessarily overcome the adversity that they're faced with.

[KARLI] Exactly.

[JAMIE] They succumb to it. They become worse because of it instead of coming out on the other side positive.

[KARLI] Yeah, definitely. All right, Jamie, what do you got for flat arc?

[JAMIE] Okay. [laughs]

[KARLI] And I feel like it's such a funny way to say that flat arc, because like arc, by definition—I just want you to visualize an arc with me [chuckles], and then—

[KIM] Just a flat—

[KARLI] And then make it flat.

[KIM] A line. [laughs]

[JAMIE] And so in the way that that relates to characterization, I would say, I like to give examples that you see flat arcs a lot in maybe like a... procedural crime novels will often have the type of character that's probably having a flat arc. They're not necessarily growing. Usually, the change is more about the arc of the story than the arc of the character. They might face a lot of adversity, but maybe that doesn't necessarily change them one way or the other. Why did I—why did I get the hardest one?

[KARLI] [laughs] Because it's your favorite.

[JAMIE] I enjoy a character that knows who they are. Not all the time. But a positive arc has to do with figuring out who you are, becoming a better person. Maybe not everybody becomes a better person. Maybe they just are who they are. [laughs] I don't know.

[KARLI] I mean, a lot of times for sure.

[JAMIE] That was horrible. I'm sorry.

[KARLI] No, that wasn't bad at all. And I think you're totally right, in bringing up procedural crime, I think of like James Bond even. And those types of characters kind of the iconic superhero, even, they have a certain like, moral compass, that they have this trajectory that they go. And there's, again, there's always exceptions to every rule with every arc, but I feel like that, that applies.

[KIM] Yeah, and not every character can have this huge sweeping evolution of character, you know. In every story, you have to have those consistent characters where it's just not their time, for that big change for that big whatever is going to happen to them. And so they are still affected by what happens in the story, but it doesn't make them a completely different person. They have that level of consistency that you need, a lot of times, to kind of pair with your protagonist and your antagonist or your secondary protagonist or whatever.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and in some ways, I feel like it can be used to echo life in a nice way where sometimes you go through adversity and you, we don't come out a better person but you do come out the other side, and that's the best you can hope for.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Alright, so in that there are so many ways to develop and execute certain characters within our story frame. So it's kind of hard to like pick a starting point. But maybe a good spot would be to start by talking about the interaction with plot. Because it's such an overarching thing, we could get down to the minutiae, a little bit further on in how to make characters feel a bit more alive. But I think it's important to take a second and look at how to pick a character and a character arc that fits the plot of the story that we're kind of going for. Did I totally jack up my wording on that again?

[KIM] No, that—I love how you started that—it just kind of gave me like a side note, because I don't start with plot, I start with characters. And you were kind of talking about how do we choose characters for the plot.

[KARLI] I mean, either way. [Kim chuckles] Totally. Get, get into it.

[KIM] I just think that's kind of interesting. Like when it comes to crafting story, characterization is such a huge part. But depending on what type of writer you are, how you approach characterization could change because some people start with plot, and then they craft their characters around plot, whereas characters always come to me first. And so a lot of times, I might have a very general plot idea, but I'm focusing specifically on characters, and then I build the plot around them. So, how you approach it can be different. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] This is all gold, because when I was thinking about this episode, I got really excited that we have you here, Kim.

[KIM] Oh.

[JAMIE] This is a great point, because I agree, everybody is going to come at it a different way. But even though I'm plot first, in my head, the type of character you have is going to dictate the tone of your story. If you have a character who's an upbeat, positive person, it's going to be a completely different book than if your main character is a down on everything, nihilist. The tone, and what is going to be considered like an obstacle for them is going to be different for each of those characters. So you have to establish who your character is to establish what the plot that you're going to throw at them is.

[KARLI] Because the ultimate, like if you had to, like condense down the end point of your plot... Ultimately, the actions happening around these characters could be the same. But how the reader takes it away is going to be vastly different based on who the character that they're following is.

[KIM] Sure.

[JAMIE] Depending on who your character is, how they're going to handle each situation is going to be different. So you can throw the same things at them, but the outcome would probably look different. How—not that this is a bad thing—how I come at a problem and how Kim comes out a problem, [all chuckle] I’m gonna guess are probably going to be exactly the same.

[KARLI] Probably, yeah.

[KIM] I think we discovered this on one of the last episodes that Jamie and I are like polar opposites. And Karli's in the happy, like middle ground over there. [laughs]

[KARLI] [chuckles] Like I like to have one foot on each side of the fence, thank you very much.

[JAMIE] But it's like, depending on your character's personality, will depend on their reactions to things. You have to come up with their outlook on life.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[KIM] You have to know your character really well. You know, I get a lot of questions about characterization, like how do you craft three dimensional characters, and I always say you got to know your character in and out like they were a real person. Because how they think about things, how they react, how they are emotionally, like all of those things influence their decisions. And that's ultimately what they're doing in a story is they're making decisions about things that happen to them. And so if you don't know how they're going to react to certain things, or how other people's reactions are gonna affect them, you then you're gonna have a really hard time crafting that character and crafting the story. So it's important to know who they are.

[KARLI] One hundred percent. I love this. I think that this is a great way to segue into some conversation about some tools and ways to actually make it manifest on the page, you knowing your character. Like I think we've all seen the character sheets where you answer way too many questions about your character including their favorite color and their least favorite smell.

[JAMIE] You know, stuff that really is important. [Kim laughs]

[KARLI] Crucial information clearly that we all know about. But once we get down to it and we feel like we know our character fairly well, how do we get that to show up on the page? What are some technical tools?

[JAMIE] I have a couple of things to say on that but before we get to like the tools, since we're talking about knowing characters, another important reason to know character is consistency of character. Like you were talking about those sheets that ask you all these questions. It doesn't really matter what color your character likes. The questions that you need to have answered are, how does your character handle conflict?

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] How does your character react to this, and then to make those consistent, and if it isn't consistent, there's a reason they reacted differently. I was recently reading a book and the character was so inconsistent with their reactions, it was jarring, like two different characters smushed together. So that's another reason why it's super important to know your character before you start throwing things at them.

[KARLI] Absolutely. Thank you for bringing that up. What will linger with me is exactly their reactions, and them feeling like a real person in their consistency of character. And if they're inconsistent, there's a reason why they're inconsistent. Like a concrete, it makes sense.

[JAMIE] Yeah, there's a term sometimes you're like, “Well, that was out of character.” That's what that means. There has to be an explanation why they didn't react in character.

[KIM] It's about understanding, like, what makes them tick, like, what's going to set them off? Or what's going to soothe them? What are they going to find relaxing versus what are they going to find annoying. Like, you just, you have to understand just how they work. And yeah, it goes beyond the surface level stuff. Because yeah, it might be fun for us to be like, they like seafoam green, and there are two on the Enneagram. But, but—whereas I could argue that Enneagram would actually tell you some of these things as well—but if you're like new to crafting characters, please hear us say that while character profiles are a great tool, you don't have to spend so much time on them on such surface level things, uh, favorite food, favorite smell, that's not the nitty gritty of what makes character. What makes a person tick is not, you know, their favorite sports team. That's just not. That's just not.

[KARLI] If you like to do that for fun, then you go right ahead, just know that what's gonna move you forward in your story is exactly that. And I think that that's a great lead in to talking about goals and motivation.

[KIM] Oh, my favorite thing.

[KARLI] I know, I know you love this. Clearly, in a story we have, we have a goal, we have an end point, we have something that we are leading our characters to. A road, we are taking them down. And in order to make that feel realistic that that character that specific one, or two or three or five or twelve or whatever, are going down those that road. We—it has to make sense. And the main reason that it ends up making sense is boiled down to what their motivations and goals are.

[KIM] Yes, yes. I am huge about this, this is probably the number one thing that has changed my writing game for me is finally understanding the character should have goals. Motive, the motivations. [chuckles] And I'd also like to throw in stakes, because I think that is such a huge part of this. And honestly for me, now I when I started writing, I spent a lot of time doing character profile type things. Now I don't do them. I know, it's a little shocking, because I do them to a degree. But I don't do them nearly in depth as I used to. Because to me, the crux of the character is the goals, the motivations, and the stakes. Because if you can narrow it down to that, if you can understand your character, at least on that level, you're going to have so much material to work with. Because essentially, like we all have the end goal, sure, everybody understands we're trying to get our protagonist from point A to point B by the end of the novel. But it's more, it's more nuanced than that. Because your character should have multiple goals throughout the course of the novel. And that goal is going to change based off of whatever is happening to them, as will the motivation, as will the stakes. And as things progress and the ball gets rolling, that's when who the character really is starts to unravel for the reader and they really get to see who the character is. So if you can have that progression, like in your head, before you start like writing, it's really going to unlock a whole layer of characterization that you didn't realize was there. It's—I get so excited talking about both motivation and stakes. [Kim and Karli chuckle] Like it is the number one piece of advice that I give to writers I'm like, start with goals. Like just trust me start with the goal. Start with the motivation. Start with the stakes, and you'll be surprised how it changes.

[KARLI] What do they really want.

[KIM] Yep.

[JAMIE] Yeah, because every book is carried by a character and what they want, whether it be for good or ill, even somebody like me who's like, oh, it's all about the plot. You still have to build that around a character because that's what people show up for.

[KIM] And we all make decisions based off of what we want. And what we want can be something very small, or it can be something large, something big. But we make decisions on a daily basis based off of what we're working towards, what we want. And that is essentially what our characters are doing, in addition to reacting to the things that we're throwing at them, they're still making choices and making decisions, because of those goals. And because of the motivations, and additionally, because of the stakes, what they stand to lose if they don't achieve those goals.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[KIM] And so it's just such an important part. And that's how like, knowing how your character reacts to things, and what makes them tick really comes into play, because they are going to be faced with choices, with decisions that they have to make in pursuit of these goals. And that's where knowing your character really counts.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And that's where it gets, like it's so interwoven, they're making those decisions based on what they want. But then also knowing the character enough to know, is this interrupting with some sort of moral line they have? How far are they willing to go to get what they want? What lines are they willing to cross? What are they not willing to cross? The motivation is there, but there are other factors that also come into play. There's so many, it's just like you said, Kim, it's a recipe, how much of this and how much of that are you putting in to create this beautiful cupcake of a person?

[KARLI] Yes.

[KIM] And it gets really fun for us as the author, because when we know that they have lines that they may or may not cross, that's when we throw more antagonism or opposition at them.

[KARLI] Pushing them to that line as close as we can and holding them there.

[KIM] We get to really play with them. I mean, conflict is the true heart of any good story. And so that's, that's when you really, as the author get to kind of play and that's when you always hear authors say like, “I feel really bad that I did that to my character,” because you really do, you know them on such a personal level. And then you're like, I'm gonna do this to you.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Sorry about it.

[KIM] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Sometimes we shove them over that line.

[KIM] Yes, we do.

[JAMIE] Or off that cliff.

[KIM] Whoops.

[KARLI] My bad.

[JAMIE] And that's a negative character arc.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Or, I mean, if we do shove them across it, potentially watching them crawl back across, yeah, finding peace with having crossed it and moving forward from that.

[KIM] Or holding them back when they want to move forward for whatever reason.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah that too.

[KIM] And it's, it's fun.

[KARLI] Yeah, to kind of go back to what you were saying about, like, what makes them tick. I think that this could go back to Enneagram or Myers Briggs or any of those tests. If that's like your jam. I used to do that all the time for my characters. And I'd like, try to get in their headspace to figure out who I thought that they would be and all of that. But I think ultimately, it comes down to why.

[KIM] Yes.

[KARLI] And every time you find yourself feeling like you've answered a question about your character's motivation, if you can't answer why they react that way, this is my big thing. I'm not making progress with understanding my characters, until I am able to answer every why ad nauseam.

[KIM] Yes, it's also really important to that the goal is not something abstract. [chuckles] I think a lot of times, we're like, their goal is to be happy. [Karli chuckles] Happiness is like such an abstract concept.

[KARLI] I mean, yeah, everybody wants to be happy.

[KIM] Yeah. But it's really hard even for readers to measure that because it is such a subjective thing. And so for it to really stick, for it really to work for you in terms of plotting your story and creating characters, the goals have to be concrete, they have to be measurable. Like, for example, like Katniss in The Hunger Games, survival is obviously a big goal. But there are other goals woven within that that are more concrete, that we can measure that we as the reader can say, yes, she achieved that goal. And that will help with the motivation. A lot of time, if I'm finding that my motivation is really weak, it's because my goal is a little more abstract than it needs to be. And that tells me to go back.

[KARLI] I have that problem a lot.

[KIM] It's a good test for you.

[KARLI] I make everything more abstract that it has to be.

[all chuckle]

[JAMIE] I'm slowly dying over here. I agree with what you're saying. But the problem I'm facing my new project, the character doesn't even know what she wants.

[JAMIE] And I'm like, how do you make that work?

[KIM] Sure.

[KARLI] I get that because there are definitely people that don't know what they want. So then you have to give them something maybe smaller or more tangible or make them feel like they want something else and push them towards that. But yeah, that's a tough one.

[JAMIE] That was helpful.

[KARLI] Oh, good. [Kim chuckles]

[KIM] Yeah, that's what I would have said to like the character, you just start with something small, like something that's even probably super insignificant to the plot that they're working towards and showing what the motivation is, showing what their stakes is. 'Cause that's going to reveal to the reader who they are, a little more of their personality and then your inciting incident comes along, or you know, something else happens. And then immediately the goal changes. And because the goal changes, the motivation has to change, the stakes have to change, and then another layer comes off, and so forth and so forth.

[KARLI] Yep, absolutely. And I think that that's the thing that I am beginning to get a little irked with the writing community in a very nebulous, like amorphous, non-persona type of situation, in the sense that they're like, oh, well, it's a really, it's a plot heavy book, or it's a character driven novel. And it's like, really, you should have both, and then should both work together really well, to the point where you can't extricate one from the other—just saying. [chuckles]

[KIM] Yeah.

[KARLI] I'm gonna put that there and just take a step back.

[KIM] I said, what I said. [Kim and Karli laugh] No, I totally understand I have a really hard time with that as well, just because I'm like, Well, for me, it's more about how the story was crafted, like, because like I said, you know, a lot of people start with characters, a lot of people start with plot first, and it's about how the story is constructed. So I guess I just tell myself, that's what they mean, because I agree with you, when I'm reading a story, if I'm really into it, and it's done well, they're so interwoven, that it's really hard to say, well, the, you know, the plot was amazing. And the characters were, you know, it was more about the plot and the characters. And it's like, wait, that they're like PB&J, they go hand in hand. So I totally get what you're saying on that.

[JAMIE] I think especially anybody who is newer, should know that it doesn't matter if you start with plot, or you start with character. It's the end product after many drafts. It doesn't have to be your first draft, you can always come in later, and put more character in, you can come in later and hammer out the details of your plot. The important part is putting in the time and effort to make it so both come to a crescendo. Balancing, like you guys were talking about, it needs to be both. If you work better, starting with character, start with character. If you worked better, starting with plot start with plot.

[KIM] Yeah, it's total personal preference.

[KARLI] I'm so glad that you said that. And I'm gonna have a really hard time not going out into the weeds on that. [Kim laughs] Thank you for everything you said, I am so glad I showed up to your TED Talk.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] That'll be $85.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I think that the writing community has fallen into this trap of labels. Of oh, I'm a plotter or I'm a pantser. Or I'm a character writer. I'm a plot driven per— Like...

[JAMIE] I don't give a shit. Are you a good writer?

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Yeah, like those are fine. If that makes you excited to write then like, please, like, we are not trying to like judge or mock anybody. Ultimately, what I'm trying to get across is just all of these things are crucial to making a good story. And no one way is better than another way. Start where you're good at, like what Jamie was saying. Start and then come at the other things. And if you have to ask for help to get it to all weave together, that's why it's called a community.

[KIM] Yeah. And if we like go back to like the recipe analogy, we've all like made a recipe, right? You taste it. And at the end, you're like, um, somethin' ain't right about this, this does not quite taste—so the next time you go back and you add in a different element, or you add less salt or whatever. And then at the end, you taste it again, you're like, oh, I'm almost there. Not quite. Let me go back to the drawing board again. I mean, that's essentially what drafting is, it's about understanding that it's just kind of playing around with different elements until you get them right, and how you approach it is totally up to you. But ultimately, you want the cake to taste like cake at the end.

[KARLI] Yeah, and every cake is a little bit different with their own flavor. And honestly, we could all three probably make like, what, a carrot cake. And all three carrot cakes would come out completely different from each other. So characters, where are we? [laughs]

[JAMIE] We never made it to the part where we were talking about what it looks like on the page.

[KARLI] Yeah, let's revisit the tools conversation, what are some actual technical, tangible tools to transfer all of this stuff that we feel we know and understand about our character onto the page? Do either of you have a place that you would like to start with that?

[JAMIE] This could mean a lot of different things.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It could be nuance in dialogue, or it could be like we've talked about reaction to conflict. One of the things I thought about is like, dialogue specifically. It's nice when you can tell who's saying it without any tags just because of the way that they speak. As per example, stories where you have either somebody who speaks English as a second language, or somebody who's really formal, or a robot will tend to use less contractions, there can be so many like mild little things like that, that you could use to show that on the page all the way up to, uh, it could mean so many things. So... [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] What do we want to go into?

[KARLI] No, you're right. And thanks for pointing that out. Because it's true. There's so many different ways to go about this. I mean, why don't we just start, you brought up dialogue and the way that people talk and utilizing dialogue and thought on the page in order to convey a character can say so much about them.

[KIM] I just wanted to add to that, because I think—putting on my English teacher hat for a minute—when I teach this, we talk about how there's direct characterization and indirect characterization, when you're trying to do both of those where, like direct characterization is where you're coming right out and you're telling the reader something specific about the character that they need to know. Where indirect is stuff that reveals characterization to the reader, the speech, being one of them, their thoughts, but also their actions is a huge part of that. The things that they're doing the things that they're they're not saying basically, the things they're actually doing. Even things like how they dress, how they walk, how they stand, [chuckles] like stuff like that. And then the effect that they have on other characters, how other characters react to them can also help reveal characterization. And so for me, it's about when I’m—as far as using tools—I’m constantly paying attention to what they're saying, how they're saying it, and then what is the other characters reactions to them. And if those things are lining up the way that I need them to based off of the goal and the motivation and the stakes at that moment, and then also what's happening with the plot. It's kind of like juggling, you have to look at a couple of different balls going through the air. But it's really about just making sure that you're revealing in the moment, what you need the reader to know about that character.

[JAMIE] That's a great point. When I read, I enjoy more indirect characterization, where you're learning about the character through interactions with others, instead of an info dump on this character was born this time and they feel this way about this thing. Show don't tell. I want it released in slow increments that I can consume over time and come to my own conclusions.

[KIM] I feel like characterization has to feel organic. Because as we're reading, we want to feel like we're getting to know this person, like a real person. And that takes time, like you can't possibly reveal who this person is, in a single chapter in a single incident in, within the story, like that's why it's called an arc.

[KARLI] Nor should you. [chuckles]

[KIM] Yeah, you know, and so I think you have to like, be willing to kind of take your time and understand that it's not all going to be revealed at once.

[KARLI] Yeah, I heard a fantastic conversation about how when you're introducing new characters, you have to think about them as like, your readers are picking up your book, and they are meeting them for the first time. When you meet somebody for the first time—granted, there are some people that share their whole life story within the first five minutes. [Kim laughs] I don't know about you, but I have definitely awkwardly done that a time or two—so...

[JAMIE] I've met those people, and you politely remove yourself from their presence.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] And so Jamie couldn't—

[JAMIE] I didn’t do it quick enough with Karli.

[KARLI] I followed her. [Kim chuckles] So you have to think about it from that perspective, there is this getting to know you phase where you're going to pick up on cues and clues that you're like, oh, interesting, they don't like it when somebody says... whatever. Or they get really like tense around this other person. And a lot of the times when you're getting to know somebody new, they don't like come out and say, well, I hate that guy. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. And that also can influence who your character is. Definitely looking at them as, as that. They're a new person that your reader is getting used to, introduced to. Don't just dump all of their backstory on us right away. Because most of the time, we don't enjoy that when we meet somebody for the first time.

[KIM] I think too, as authors, we're really bad about assuming that our reader knows what we need them to know. And I think that's because in our brains, it makes perfect sense.

[KARLI] We have all of it trapped in here.

[KIM] Yes. And sometimes I think we forget, we forget to step out of it and be like, Okay, if I was just meeting this character for the first time, what would I want to know? What would I need to know? You don't need to know everything but what I need to know to be engaged enough to care about what happens next to this character. I, for one, am the type of reader if you drop me into a situation and you throw characters at me and I haven't had a chance to care about them, then I get really confused and I find myself not as engaged in what's happening. And so it is really important to make sure that you take that moment of introduction, like you were saying, like what do they need to know at this moment. What's going to help them connect with this character? 'Cause connection with the character is so important. If the reader does not connect to the character, then they don't care what happens to them. And if they don't care what happens to them, they're going to DNF your book. And we don't want that. [chuckles]

[KIM] Yeah.

[JAMIE] That's pretty specifically what we said in our DNF episode.

[all chuckle]

[KARLI] Absolutely. And it's not that you can't start with action. It's just that you have to make sure that if you're doing that, it serves a very distinct and direct purpose for getting your readers acquainted with your world and your character. And will pull them in instead of alienate them.

[KIM] Yes.

[KARLI] Which is tough to figure out if you're doing that well or not. But you know, we talk a lot about having other people read for you, so...

[KIM] I was just about to say that's what a good BETA reader is for. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yep.

[KARLI] Critique partners, beta readers, all that jazz, writing groups, utilize them. Have we mentioned that in every episode this season so far?

[KIM] I feel like that's been a common theme.

[KARLI] I feel like it's pretty close. [Jamie chuckles]

[KIM] One, I think that's why I can only speak for myself, I detest—well I detest drafting in general—but I very, very much to test first chapters for this very reason, because you are introducing the characters for the very first time. And you know, you can't be like, hey, reader, this is the main character. They're important because. Because nobody wants to read that. And even as something as simple as like, giving their name, finding an organic, creative way to drop the character's name. I don't know. Maybe I'm the only one that obsesses about that. [chuckles] But because I don't want them to be like, "Hi, my name is Katniss Everdeen." I want a more organic way for the name to be in there.

[KARLI] “My name is Katniss Everdeen. I want to protect my family. Follow along with me on this journey.” [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yeah, exactly. It's you don't want everything just like spoon fed to you in that first chapter. Because that's not any fun.

[KIM] Yeah, really, I think characterization can really be summed up and just making sure that they feel real, and making sure that the reader connects with him. Like really, like, there's so many different ways to approach characterization. Just like we could say that about drafting a novel in general, everybody has their own process, everybody does things differently. But the key is, is that a reader has to care about this character, they have to relate to the character. And the way that they do that is by crafting a character. That's— that is somebody worth investing time in and emotional energy into. And it's just all about taking the reader for a ride. That's what that character does. And if you can make them care, make them connect, or even maybe if they don't even particularly like the character, if they're intrigued enough that they want to keep reading. That is, that's the ultimate goal. And that's what you're aiming for with characterization, I think.

[KARLI] And remembering that getting your characters on your page, early days is not going to be the same as it is after you've made a few passes.

[KIM] Yeah.

[KARLI] I think a lot of times, like you're saying you hate the first chapter, because there's so much pressure on it. But we forget a lot of times, we can come back after we understand our characters better, we can revisit them and flesh them out more in future drafts. So we put a lot of pressure on, "I want my character to feel real, I want them to feel alive." And yes, we all want that. But also remember like that is not going to come to full fruition in your first draft.

[KIM] Yeah, and you just you just said it sometimes, like if you're struggling with characterization at the beginning, don't force it, like just write. Because that first draft is really you telling yourself the story anyway. Like we all think we know what the story is, you really don't until you sit down and write it, because so much happens within the process of drafting. So sometimes what you think a character is going to do and say you may have done all this characterization prep work, you're like, I know this person, and then you get in the scene and they go completely rogue, all on their own. And you have to just adjust. So like if characterization is something that you feel you're that you're weak in, don't stress about it in that first draft, like, let it play out as it will be. You can, you can always go back and adjust as needed. And sometimes that's what makes it, that's what makes it fun, is to kind of let the character come to life in their own organic way through the drafting. That exploratory writing and, you know, guess what, you're the author, if you don't like it, you can change it.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, you could write a character that you think is going to fit a certain role and then you realize that they're better suited for something else. And you revisit and then you figure out okay, well maybe there's somebody needs to need to fill that role that I originally thought or is this just a better trajectory? And so just being willing to ask yourself questions instead of getting defeated when it's not working out, which I'm one hundred percent preaching to the choir on this one. Like I just recently had like a whole existential crisis on my, all of my characters in what I'm doing. I'm like, is this is compelling enough? Are these characters compelling enough? Like, I don't even know why I'm telling their story. Like I love these characters, and I want to see them come to life on the page, but I don't know what story I'm telling with them. It's a challenge.

[KIM] I'm also going to plug—you guys did a really great episode on likable and unlikable characters. I just listened to that one the other day.

[KARLI] Aw thanks.

[KIM] So if you guys haven't listened to that episode, go back and listen to that episode as well. Because that is another thing that kind of comes into play is making your character likable or unlikable. And they did a whole episode on it, go listen to it.

[all chuckle]

[KARLI] Thank you, Kim.

[KIM] I just listened to that one the other day. So it was fresh in my mind. I think the key is just a find a way to think of it that makes sense to you. For me thinking about it, like a recipe really works like what I'm throwing in to make this a whole. And just understanding it's about connection, it's about engagement, it's about getting to know the character and growing with the character throughout the course of the story. And if you can do that, then you're gonna be okay. And if it takes you a couple drafts like, that's okay, too. And if you have to change something that's fine. Like, that is the beauty of being the author is that you get to mold and change and add new ingredients or take them away as you go. And in the end, hopefully, you have a really great carrot cake. When it comes to characterization, it's very important to not overlook your side characters and your antagonist because I think so often we only focus on the protagonist. And it's really important that everybody has an arc. Like your side characters even can't just be utensils, or accessories, you know, to the main—

[KARLI] Accessories for eating the carrot cake. [Kim chuckles] Now I want cake. It's a problem. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] And it's super important to have contrasting characters. If all of your characters are reading the same, that's super boring. There has to be multiple fleshed out characters to make the world seem real. You're making the character seem real, and having different types of people will make your world more realistic.

[KARLI] And I think that that goes into play with the separating your writer voice from your character voice. As writers, I think a lot of times when we wind up writing characters that all feel the same or we wind up throwing like a hyper cliched version of plucky sidekick or the antagonist that's like super villainous, and mwahaha. And if you aren't able to look at the world objectively and recognize that even similar people respond to things differently. And being able to look at that in a more like multifaceted way. Like, listen, go somewhere public and just eavesdrop. [Kim chuckles] It’s just, I'm a big fan of eavesdropping. I am always dropping the eaves, always. Because you get really interesting feedback on the different ways that people react to the same conversation. So just just throwing that out there. If you're having a difficult time where everybody's feeling the same. It could simply be that you as a writer need a little bit more like broadening of your own horizons and looking at the way that people see things. In, in wrapping up. I don't know, I just feel like Kim said it so much better. And I would just be repeating myself.

[JAMIE] I'm like, I don't know what else I would say about it that Kim hasn't put so well.

[KARLI] I yeah, I have I have nothing else to say. Kim, do you have a two-cent recommendation for us for this week?

[KIM] I do. It's a bit goofy.

[KARLI] I love goofy.

[KIM] I think you guys will be interested in this. So and it kind of go it goes with characterization. So I have a theater background. So maybe that's why this appeals to me. I did theater all through high school and college. I also had a brief stint on YouTube, as a lot of you know. And while I no longer have a YouTube, I do have an active TikTok account. And that app is so much fun. It is the biggest time suck ever, but I love it. But, sometimes what I will do when I'm working on a character and I'm going for a particular feeling or I'm trying to get to know that character is I will pull up TikTok and look for duets, where people are acting out certain scenes for movies or shows that kind of invoke that same feeling or same personality or whatever. And I will actually like act out those scenes with those people to kind of get a feel for the character or whatever emotion that I'm going for. It just helps me like really get in the zone. Sometimes I post them, sometimes I don't, but sometimes it's really fun to put yourself like in the shoes of the character and pretend that you are that character. And I find that a really fun way to do character research and to kind of get to know character. So if you're like me and you like that sort of thing, TikTok is a really fantastic place to get inspiration and there's so many duets. People just doing all sorts of duets where they're acting out scenes from things and it's a lot of fun. So, there you go.

[JAMIE] That’s cool.

[KARLI] That's a really fun way to look at it. I do really love TokTok for the sketch, like comedy or things like that. So I could see that being a really fun time.

[KIM] It's silly. I—it is ridiculous, but it is fun. [chuckles] And you know, take your joy where you find it.

[KARLI] Nothing wrong with silly or goofy.

[JAMIE] That thought reminds me of like, you mentioned Karli, like taking Enneagram or Myers Briggs tests and answering the questions as if it's that character. There's really just putting yourself in that character's mindset, a similar concept.

[KARLI] Like method acting, is that what you call that?

[KIM] Yeah.

[KARLI] Thank you for joining us, Kim. We love having you here and are really grateful that you took time out of your really busy schedule for us. So…

[JAMIE] Appreciate it.

[KIM] Well, thank you so much for having me. I absolutely love chatting story with you. And I would love to come back anytime you'll have me.

[KARLI]  Kim, we can find you on Instagram and TikTok @kimwritesbooks.

[KIM] Yes. Yeah.

[KARLI] Awesome. And at your website, kimchance.com.

[KIM] Yes, ma'am.

[KARLI] People can find your books via your website, I’m assuming, also Amazon and other major sellers.

[KIM] Yeah, I mean, my books are a bit old now. But you can find them pretty much everywhere libraries, Barnes and Noble, Amazon.

[KARLI] No one's throwing shade at old books.

[KIM] But I got some new stuff in the works hopefully. And yeah, you can find me. My websites probably the number one stop for all things Kim Chance. My books, where to buy them, information about me, etc. But yeah, kimwritesbooks on all social media platforms. So come hang out with me.

[JAMIE] Thank you so much for being here. I didn't get to say thank you so much. [all chuckle] Thank you so much.

[KIM] Thank you so much for having me.

[KARLI] You can find us @theactbreak_podcast on Instagram, @theactbreak_ on Twitter. All of our information is there and on our website at scifiohmy.com/podcast. We have transcripts and backlogs and newsletters and all the good stuff. Thank you so much for listening.

[JAMIE] Talk to you later, internet friends.

[KIM] Bye!