S2 Ep.12 Sidekicks & Companions

Sidekicks & Companions - Transcript

[KARLI] In an endeavor to banish the cicada noise from the audio, I have purchased a new cable for my microphone.

[JAMIE] How's that going?

[KARLI] I think it's going pretty well. So well, in fact, that that might be the title for my next book, A Banishment of Cicadas.

[JAMIE] [chuckling] A Banishment of Cicadas. I feel like that would be a horrible for the ecosystem. [Karli chuckles] If you thought this out. No. So you do have the cord now?

[KARLI] I do. I do.

[JAMIE] And so far?

[KARLI] It's so far, so far.

[JAMIE] We'll see. I'll be the judge of that.

[KARLI] I was gonna say it's all gonna come down to when Jamie's editing.

[JAMIE] But it would be nice if that was the problem. If it was that simple.

[KARLI] [sighs] I’m hoping. So the more that I was playing with the old cable, if I would, like bend it a certain way, this noise bit died down. And I'm like, if it's not the cord... It's the cord.

[JAMIE] Look at us, troubleshooting geniuses, man. [Karli chuckles]

[KARLI] I'm impressed that I actually was able to figure out a technology thing without you having to hold my hand.

[JAMIE] No, I mean, I did say it was the cord, but you figured out your own cord. [laughs] Potentially the connection.

[KARLI] That. Mhmm, for sure.

[JAMIE] [laughs] I mean, you did it Karli.

[KARLI] Yeah. Thanks.

[JAMIE] Sorry.

[KARLI] [laughing] God.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE]  Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] Welcome back to The Act Break podcast, folks. I am Karli, lover of literary devices.

[JAMIE] And I am Jamie, a science fiction and speculative fiction writer. We said like we're so interesting.

[BOTH] [singing] Ahhhh!

[JAMIE] Yikes.

[KARLI] All right. Today we are talking about companions; from sidekicks to mentors.

[JAMIE] And everything in between. We're actually not going to talk about everything in between.

[KARLI] Like some things in between. A few.

[JAMIE] A variety, a smattering.

[KARLI] A couple, a smidge. A selection. A plethora. No, there probably won't be a plethora.

[JAMIE] Because every main character needs a little support, a little somebody to bounce ideas off of, a friend, a lackey, [both laugh] someone to do their bidding.

[KARLI] I like how friend and lackey were just like, right...

[JAMIE] Yeah, there's just right next to each other. That's how my brain works.

[KARLI] They're adjacent. It only takes just the slightest thing for the friend to become a lackey.

[JAMIE] It really does.

[KARLI] I should know I have been… [laughs]

[JAMIE] She's often lackey status.

[KARLI] I have been demoted to lackey on occasion. Take care, take care of this for me. [Karli laughs] Read this paragraph, I don't want to. [Jamie laughs] But also, I—I'm the definitions, girl. So you know, we all have our roles to play.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] True, I definitely don't look anything up anymore. I'm like Jamie, give us a definition.

[JAMIE] They call me Merriam Webster. Some of the best known sidekicks that came to my mind... My very first thought was of Dick Grayson, who's Robin, pretty much the epitome of sidekick is Batman and Robin. In the fantasy side, we've got Samwise Gamgee. The ultimate. To everybody. It's like if you have to have a sidekick. You want it to be Sam.

[KARLI] You want it to be Sam. He will have food, and he will carry you when you get tired. [both chuckle]

[JAMIE] Exactly, even though it'd be way easier just to like slap you silly and take the ring and do your own self.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] And just do it your damn self. He's too nice for that.

[JAMIE] Oh, Samwise.

[KARLI] See, sidekicks have to be nicer than the hero, otherwise this does doesn't work.

[JAMIE] I think that that's very true.

[KARLI] Of course it is. I said it.

[JAMIE] [laughing] What was I thinking?

[KARLI] Before we get into more examples, let's shift gears into like story context, like the importance level in the story and their relationship to the plot and by extension, the protagonist and antagonist even.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I think that supporting characters are one of the most important elements there is because they make your main character more interesting.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So they are interacting with someone instead of just constantly narrating their own story. They have somebody to banter they have somebody to interact with. Reading a conversation is more engaging often than just a wall of brick text. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Monologue.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] For sure. I agree. They are so crucial to an engaging story. And I often find myself more interested in the side characters because I think that they're easier to write well, because I think a lot of writers get into their head that a protagonist or a hero has to be a certain kind of way. And so the sidekick often serves as like a softening of that image or like a—it brings things in a better contrast. They're the foil, and they do that quite well.

[JAMIE] You can do a sidekick or a companion in a lot of different ways. But a lot of the times it's like a friend, and having your main character have a friend brings them a certain amount, or an illusion of likability. [Karli chuckles] Because if they have a friend, they must have some sort of redeeming qualities.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So especially if you have maybe a more unlikable protagonist, it's kind of important to give them somebody to play off of to make them a little bit more likeable.

[KARLI] A contrasting character. Yeah, side characters often bring interesting ways to progress the plot, that the protagonist wouldn't necessarily do themselves, especially early in the story.

[JAMIE] Yeah, they're sometimes the reason. They drag you to this event or that event.

[KARLI] Yeah, exactly.

[JAMIE] You want to do a thing, before getting into like the archetypes of different ones, just like an overall like, the secondary characters, oftentimes carry the theme of your story, and are like the backbone, or the grounding element to your plot, or your main character. They help kind of send the message home. They can be the person that in the darkest hour of your protagonist, they either provide the support or say the thing that makes everything come together or sparks the idea that makes your protagonist make everything come together.

[KARLI] That's great that you brought that up. They do. I hadn't thought of it that way. But they absolutely do.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I was just looking at Blake Snyder's beat sheet. And in that the beat—the B story—talks about that. Often the B story, it seems secondary, but it's carrying the theme of what the whole story is actually about, just in a different light.

[KARLI] Yeah. And it's either mirroring the main plot or...

[JAMIE] Contrasting it.

[KARLI] Or contrasting it in order to bring light to the theme, or the thing that the main character has to learn in order for the story to come to its crescendo and give us the satisfaction that we want.

[JAMIE] As per example, Samwise Gamgee, standing on the side of Mount Doom, making his big speech about things in this world worth fighting for.

[KARLI] Strawberries.

[JAMIE] Exactly. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Strawberries.

[JAMIE] Oh, Sam.

[KARLI] We love you.

[JAMIE] Although these types of characters are often called sidekicks, or companions, or secondary characters, I don't want them to be undervalued, because they are just as important. Just like most things in your story are all important elements that come together, having rounded out, fully formed, characters in your secondary positions, quote, unquote, help a story so much. When they are like a flat, nothing behind the mask character, they're not going to elevate your story like you want. Even though they're designed to help your main character, they need to be their own person, because it's that everybody is the main character of their own story.

[KARLI] They need to be a fully formed entity.

[JAMIE] Yeah, no side character thinks, I'm a sidekick. And if they do, it's not very realistic. [laughs] But the side characters that have their own arc, that's—

[KARLI] Those are the best.

[JAMIE] Thinking about side characters. I specifically thought of Twilight of Gods, a good book I read once that I can't recommend to anybody because they can't get their hands on it.

[KARLI] [laughing] I’m sorry.

[JAMIE] My mind is totally blanked out on the characters names. Not Einar, it's the other guy.

[KARLI] Arnlaug.

[JAMIE] The brother, right? I specifically thought of Arnlaug from that, because he's got a really good arc of his own. And it's very much like he is the main character of his story of what he's got going on. But he's not like, quote, unquote, the main character, but um…

[KARLI] Well, thank you for saying that. Wow.

[JAMIE] I remember things. I'm just saying. [laughs]

[KARLI] Well, the fact that you actually do remember that character really makes me feel good because you don't always remember. [both chuckle]

[JAMIE] If I don't like a book, I instantly forget it. The other day, I was like, looking at Ursula K. LeGuin books on my Goodreads and I'm like The Left Hand of Darkness and it says I read it. I have zero idea what that book is about.

[KARLI] [laughs] No recollection.

[JAMIE] I only read it like a year and a half ago.

[KARLI] You purge. [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] Deleted it.

[JAMIE] You purge things.

[JAMIE] I didn't—I didn't love it. That's all I remember. But not with your book, missy.

[KARLI] Thank you. Anyways, moving right along. Let's, let's start diving into the types of characters, of side characters. Companions can be found in all fiction, not just science fiction and fantasy, but some are pretty specific to the genre. Like you don't find mentors in contemporary romance. Not that I'm aware of at least.

[JAMIE] There are genres that lend themselves to these.

[KARLI] Yes. Absolutely.

[JAMIE] In a romantic comedy, it would be the best friend.

[KARLI] Absolutely. Yeah.

[JAMIE] Yeah. It's just like different, different types lend themselves to different genres.

[KARLI] Yes. And there can be crossover in all of them. We're doing our best to give you a smattering of examples from different things. But we will probably end up mentioning more science fiction and fantasy because, surprise, surprise, that's what we like best. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Who knew?

[KARLI] All right, so I mean, since you brought up the best friend. The best friend is one of the main examples of the companions.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and I just want to say that when I was thinking about the best friend trope, I don't know if you want to call it a trope. I thought of Keeper by Kim Chance.

[KARLI] I did too! She's one of the best best friends I've ever read.

[JAMIE] I love her side character.

[KARLI] Maggie.

[JAMIE] She was incredibly relatable and she really popped off the page for being like a supporting character.

[KARLI] Yeah. Oh, she was great. She was done so well and like I don't want to give spoilers.

[JAMIE] She has her own arc.

[KARLI] So the Keeper duology by Kim Chance is what we're referring to. Maggie is chef's kiss best friend. And then yeah, we've mentioned Samwise is like a sidekick slash best friend. He kind of is like, right in the middle there.

[JAMIE] Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[KARLI] Oh oh oh, what what what.

[JAMIE] Let's get into this for just a second.

[KARLI] Ooo, okay.

[JAMIE] It's also an interpretation. In the movie, he comes off as a best friend. In the books. He's very much a—he’s almost like a caretaker. Because in the book, Frodo was much older than Sam. And Sam, like, takes care of his garden and his house and his chores.

[KARLI] Yeah, I was gonna say it's all—it’s borderline lackey. Frodo doesn't treat him poorly. But as the series progresses, their bond deepens. And it becomes a more meaningful relationship than just Sam works for Frodo. But yes, you are so right in—book to movie completely different.

[JAMIE] And it plays better in the film.

[KARLI] On the screen, it made so much more sense for them to do it that way.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] And we're not sad about it. Another best friend example that I really love is Anne to Lesley Knope, in Parks and Rec.

[JAMIE] Oh, yeah.

[KARLI] I love their friendship dynamic. And the way that that helps evolve Leslie's character. But Anne has her own stuff going on. And it's, it's great.

[JAMIE] That's a good example.

[KARLI] Do you got any besties? I mean, me, obviously, I am an excellent—

[JAMIE] Lackey. [Jamie laughs]

[KARLI] Just cut it, cut it. We're done.

[JAMIE] Turn it off. The podcast is canceled everyone. [both laugh] No, I didn't write down specifics for best friends. One that borders the line between like a friend and whatever else nebulous you want to call this because as soon as you say the word companion, I think Doctor Who. And the people that travel are basically friends. Most of the time. They have no other reason to be traveling with him, other than the fact that they were invited along and they enjoy each other's company.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] So I guess that does count as like a friend but I wouldn't call it best friends. It is more. I think companion is the right word.

[KARLI] It's the perfect word.

[JAMIE] So I almost want to categorize Doctor Who companions as friends. But it's, it's that weird, squishy line in between, in between friends, and what, I don't know. [laughs]

[KARLI] Well, something I was going to bring up was I prefer when companions serve more than one purpose. I think that they are most enjoyable that way. They don't fit into one archetype. And I think that that's the reason that it's that squishy place for the Doctor Who companions because different ones have different roles within that story arc.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] And that's why they are so enjoyable to watch because it's not going to be the same thing on a loop when there's a new companion.

[JAMIE] Exactly.

[KARLI] In my—at least in my experience, I haven't watched all of the episodes, but...

[JAMIE] I went down a real rabbit hole of Doctor Who companions. And I haven't watched all of it, but I had been really dedicated to it for a certain amount of time. [coughs] David Tennant. [coughs]

[KARLI] [chuckles] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And you're right. It's like it really just depends on the character. My favorite companion, which would be Donna Noble was, was that. She served multiple purposes. She was a companion, a buddy, but she was also very much a foil. A very different opposing forces to push him and force him to grow, which was what her character was designed to do. Spoiler alert, because he's kind of in a bad place. And then through traveling with Donna, he, he kind of like gets over a grieving process.

[KARLI] Yeah. Cancel the rest of what this episode was about. [chuckles] This is now about Doctor Who and his companions. [laughing]

[JAMIE] I know, I'm just saying because especially you mentioned like having multiple roles. Because Martha is a companion, she ends up being incredibly important to the story arc she's involved in, and it couldn't happen without her. And same with Rose at the end of her story arc. That's where it comes back around. The companion often is carrying the theme of the entire story or story arc.

[KARLI] Yeah, those are some fantastic examples of that very point. We've been talking a lot about sidekicks, so I feel like maybe we could give some less well known examples, maybe? Because obviously, everybody thinks of superhero sidekicks. When you say sidekicks. I have a few examples that popped to mind. Which I mean, obviously, some of these are pretty popular as well. So you know, there goes my let's give less common examples. [laughs] Listen, I say what I want when I say it, and then I changed my mind right after I say it. A lot. Jamie has to put up with that constantly. So you guys might as well join in on that. [laughing] It’s also the verbal processing thing. Sometimes I don't know what I think until I say it and then it comes out and like, nuh uh, that's wrong. [Jamie laughs] I don't think that, false. False. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Throw it in reverse.

[KARLI] Take it back. Anyways, examples, Donkey to Shrek. Sidekick, for sure. Definitely not friends. [laughs] At first. At first Donkey just gets on Shrek's nerves. Watson to Sherlock. Chewbacca to Han Solo, solid sidekicks.

[JAMIE] So you don't think Chewie and Han are best friends?

[KARLI] I think that they're—I think that there's a, there's a mixture in there. And I think that in some instances, Chewy comes off more like a sidekick and in other instances comes off more like a best friend.

[JAMIE] Do you think that's because of speciesism? Like, it's so…

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Well, it's not like he can really like get people to listen to him in his own right, because no one understands him but Han.

[JAMIE] That's because they don't speak Wookie. Which is speciesism.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Speciesism. [chuckles] Listen, save this argument for the Star Wars episode. Moving right along. One of my favorite examples of a really compelling sidekick is Caul Shivers in Best Served Cold by Joe Abercrombie. He has his own full arc in that story and brings the whole main story arc home at the very end. And without him, the book would not have packed the punch that it did. But the point of the plot is not his—it's not his goal. But he still drives it. He still drives the story as much as the protagonist does. I love when reading a series, if there's a side character that grows and evolves to become a main character in their own right later on.

[JAMIE] Yeah, you get that... I feel more often in epic fantasy.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Because they have the time to develop that to move that arc forward. Like if you have just a standalone 300 page novel, like there's not that opportunity. Yeah, that's something that one is one of those things that lends itself to a certain genre.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] I can't like over emphasize enough how important it is that they have like their own arcs.

[KARLI] So important. Oh, like, like The Hound in Game of Thrones. What about mentors?

[JAMIE] Mentors.

[KARLI] The classic mentor trope.

[JAMIE] Soo many mentors.

[KARLI] So many.

[JAMIE] I think with the whole mentors thing, what I'm thinking of mostly is that the mentee is the sidekick, not the mentor.

[KARLI] Which is interesting, though, because it depends on the story.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it does depend on the story. But when I was originally thinking of the mentor trope in regards to sidekicks and companions, I was thinking like the Batman and Robin of it all.

[KARLI] Right, right. Okay, that makes sense. So in that sense, obviously Batman is the lead role and in that and he is the mentor. I was definitely thinking of mentor as like the trope, the side character that helps the protagonist and their team along their merry way. More of the Gandalf and the Moraine in Wheel of Time. And even Tom in Wheel of Time, and like they, they're not the main—they're even sometimes considered tertiary characters in like the big epic fantasy, but yeah, I didn't even think about them in the main character role. So interesting.

[JAMIE] Since we were talking about sidekicks, that's all I was thinking.

[KARLI] Do you consider the comic relief a role in its own right? Or is that usually paired with another kind of companion?

[JAMIE] Um, I feel like that could be that's less of a role and more of an attribute.

[KARLI] Yeah, that's true.

[JAMIE] Because a companion can be a comedic foil or a comic relief, but it's not always. And the comedic relief can also come from a tertiary character that can be slotted in anywhere, depending on the personality of the character.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[JAMIE] Often it is used as comic relief, like the best friend part because it lends itself to that.

[KARLI] Everybody knows the quirky best friend trope and all of that. I was thinking of Jeskier in The Witcher for that.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Ron Weasley.

[KARLI] Yes, yes. They're, like either the best friend or the sidekick, but they're also the comic relief.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Snarky comments provider.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] That's me. [chukles]

[KARLI] Yes, yes. Another type of side character in your story that can drive your plot forward would be the love interest, or even platonic life mate slash buddy cop situation. They could also be considered like, depending on the situation, the buddy cop, I guess is more of like the friend role, I guess.

[JAMIE] That falls I—closer, closer to like a companion, like partners.

[KARLI] Partners, yes.

[JAMIE] Where we're put together, we want to have a good working relationship, but we didn't necessarily choose each other.

[KARLI] Right? One of the example I saw listed for this, which I mean, I don't know about the like, I don't remember. It's been so long since I've seen it. So maybe you can I might be wrong, but like Zoe to Mal in Firefly, they're more the working together, partnership.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I think by the time we see Zoe and Mal's relationship, they're friends. They were comrades in arms. So they forged their, their bond through trials.

[JAMIE] And so then they become like, connected almost to like a family status.

[KARLI] Right.

[KARLI] Yeah, which is why I like the platonic life mate, I think fits that a little bit better. But then love-interest-wise? Well, the love it depends on I think the story. Not all love interests wind up as companions. But in certain situations, they are working together. And they fall in love either—they usually fall in love along the way. Like Annabeth and Percy in Percy Jackson, like Katniss and Peeta in The Hunger Games, that sort of thing.

[JAMIE] So then he's like a sidekick, you think?

[KARLI] Kind of. Because I mean, I mean, I don't know about a sidekick, but he's working alongside her. He's a supporting role. He's also a foil for her because he is so different from her and it highlights their differences. He brings the, the themes through. I actually think Peta is a really good example of that the love interest actually being able to—because they're alongside one another in the journey.

[JAMIE] That makes sense. That is a good example.

[KARLI] Okay, so I have a side character that I'd like to ask you what role you think that they fill.

[JAMIE] Ooh, oh, I didn't know there would be a test!

[KARLI] I know. Right? It's genie in Aladdin.

[JAMIE] That's difficult. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Right? It's a tricky one because I was thinking about just some of my favorite side characters in stories and then trying to think of like where they would slot in for examples and then Genie popped in my mind.

[JAMIE] Well, my first thought is hired help which is the category, I think, but Genie is a slave.

[KARLI] Yeah, like obviously. Yeah.

[JAMIE] He's in bondage, literally.

[KARLI] He's in bondage, literally. Yes.

[JAMIE] So that's probablamatic. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yes, it is one hundred percent problematic.

[JAMIE] Because it's not like he's like super doing anything that he does for a lot and out of the goodness of his heart, not that he's not a good person or good character, but like he is under duress, basically. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. Well, and he's also like coaching and guiding Aladdin little bit. So he also kind of fills a little bit of a mentor role to him.

[JAMIE] But he wants—you want to keep that guy happy. So that hopefully he gives you that last wish.

[KARLI] Right? Well, and then in the full arc of the story, at the very end, Aladdin's change was because of Genie. Him becoming less selfish, like, he didn't become less selfish because of his love interest, or because of Abu. It was because of Genie. It's, it's an interesting conundrum that I came across. And that is, when I do feel like, it's interesting to see characters that fill many roles in a story, because then you can't just nail them down to one spot and say, This is the trope that they fit in. I just think it's interesting.

[JAMIE] Character studies, things that make you go hmm. [both chuckle]

[KARLI] In wrapping this literary device package up in a nice little bow, whatever companion you decide to place into your story, make sure that you are remembering that they are a whole being in their own right, and that they carry the distinctive weight of the story as much as your protagonist does. And, and you will go far.

[JAMIE] And you... [both laugh] Nice that's it's very encouraging.

[KARLI] Thank you. Jamie, do you have a recommendation for us this week?

[JAMIE] Uh, yeah. I know, we never specified that our recommendations had to be on theme. But I do feel deeply compelled to always make them on theme. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Same.

[JAMIE] But that was not easy this week, because I'm really, really picky. And so I was like, All right, I'm just gonna pick my favorite sidekick slash companion slash whatever. Martin Freeman's portrayal of John Watson in the BBC Sherlock. He is the perfect foil. He forces the protagonist to grow. He is just so good.

[KARLI] He's funny.

[JAMIE] Their chemistry is undeniable.

[KARLI] Martin Freeman is fantastic. But they work so well together.

[JAMIE] I know. It's like a whole show. You don't have to watch the whole thing. He shines in, even if you just watch like the first one episode.

[KARLI] Don't tell them to not watch the whole show.

[JAMIE] You live your life, you guys.

[KARLI] Watch the whole show.

[JAMIE] Do whatever you want. Don't watch the show. Watch the show. It's a show, a show. I just think he's a great, a great sidekick.

[KARLI] Quite well done. You can find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast, Twitter @theactbreak_, you can go to our website scifiohmy.com/podcast. There you can sign up for our newsletter and find transcripts for this episode. Please follow and subscribe so that you get notifications when our new episodes come out. We have a new one every Thursday.

[JAMIE] Talk to you later, guys.