S2 Ep.21 Star Wars Chat with Greta Valentine

Star Wars Chat with Greta Valentine - Transcript

[JAMIE] This is like a side note, but kind of goes with our theme. I edit like if we're slurping our coffee and stuff, because I already edit out all of my heavy breathing.

[GRETA] Excellent.

[JAMIE] We used to work with a guy who called me Darth Vader, but we'd be in a morning meeting and I would just be standing next to him and he would look over and he'd be like, "Oh my god."

[JAMIE] [Karli imitates Darth Vader breathing]

[GRETA] Well, I'm here to contribute. [chuckles] I'm here to contribute some heavy breathing also.

[KARLI] Good. Good.

[JAMIE] I'm that meme. That really heavy cat that that's just heavy breathing. [all chuckle]

[GRETA] Yes. It's the worst ASMR ever. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, we like to make it as awkward as possible.

[GRETA] Yeah. It's like the subtitle of this podcast, right?

[KARLI] It's more fun that way.

[GRETA] The Act Break, super awkward for everyone.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE]  Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI]  Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] Welcome back to The Act Break where we sometimes have cool internet friends, come and talk to us about nerdy stuff. Which is what's happening today. I'm Karli and I will do my best not to quote Star Wars one liners this entire episode. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] And I'm Jamie. I am not—what's the equivalent of a Trekker, but for Star Wars? Do Star Wars people have a title?

[GRETA] Good question. I don't know if they do.

[KARLI] I don't think so. —

[GRETA] I don't think so.

[KARLI] Nerds. [Greta chuckles]

[GRETA] And I'm Greta, I'm also a speculative fiction author. And I have a bad feeling about this. [Jamie and Karli chuckle] I will be quoting Star Wars one liners.

[KARLI] Yes, I knew we picked the right person for this chat!

[JAMIE] This will be great. This is this'll be nice. You're like, I feel like you're part of the Star Wars fandom.

[GRETA] That's fair.

[JAMIE] And I don't personally identify as such.

[GRETA] Yeah, I have that. I can't I know we'll get into this. But I have kind of like a probably a different entry point than like a lot of people who consider themselves Star Wars fans

[KARLI] Ooo.

[GRETA] But we'll get into it.

[JAMIE] I'm so excited about that fact, because we have like, people who are varying levels of interest in it. And then also different perspectives of like you said, entry points. So.

[KARLI] Yeah, it's gonna be good.

[JAMIE] If you like Star Wars, hopefully this will be the episode to listen to. And a lot of people love Star Wars because it's super cool.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Well, I mean, I think you saying that you have a different entry point than most people like, that's just we just just start there. What was your entry point into Star Wars?

[GRETA] Yeah, so I did not grow up with the classic trilogy. I probably didn't even watch it until college, to be honest. I grew up like watching the prequels with my cousins. It was just like a fun adventure movie. And I won't tell you how old I was before my family, like even owned a TV. [all laugh] It was not like, we just we just kind of like, went over to our cousin's watch like adventure movies. So I watched the prequels. I watched some of them coming out in the theaters. Yeah, I eventually, like went back and watched the classic trilogy. But yeah, the prequels were definitely my entry point.

[KARLI] Cool.

[JAMIE] And it also sounds like it was an experience like you were with your cousins, you were having fun, you were young. It's like one of those formative core memories.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] That's cool.

[KARLI]  That's that's really, really cool. Jamie, what was your entry point into Star Wars?

[JAMIE] Um, little background for my family, we're not super outdoorsy. We don't like camp. My dad doesn't do like traditional dad hobbies. We watched movies. Like that was the thing that we did. We went to the theater and watched movies. And when the original series was re-released in 1997, I remember being in line. I think there were like three people in front of us. But we had been standing in line all day. I was whatever age I was, but it was just like part of what we did. I think we like even drove two hours to get there. And so I remember seeing A New Hope, which is the first one right? I'm not screwing that up. That's how, that's how—

[KARLI] That's how not in the fandom...

[JAMIE] Unsure I am of keeping it all straight. [Greta chuckles] So I remember seeing it in theaters. And then like the next month, of course, we did the same thing because the next one came out. So I always grew up with the original series. And then the resurgence of how exciting it was when the prequels came out. And all that.

[KARLI] That's awesome. For me, it was the original trilogy. My parents had some nerdy friends because my parents were not nerds. And they had this really beautiful box VHS set was like gold and black—

[JAMIE] It's got gold foiling.

[KARLI] Yeah, like Darth Vader's mask. It was very dramatic looking. It was very, very cool. And they let us borrow it. And then we loved it so much, they let us keep it.

[JAMIE] They're all "you poor deprived children!" [laughs]

[KARLI] "You poor, deprived children. Here, have some nerdery." Yeah, and I loved them immediately. I was all in, I am printed immediately and hard. [laughs]

[GRETA] I will say that I had probably like a resurgence and interest in Star Wars, like during college, just because like, I was taking anthropology classes. Like that was my major and we talked a lot about myth in some of my intro classes. And so like, we talked a lot about Star Wars and The Matrix as kind of examples of like, mono myth and like stories that repeat across cultures, kind of like from a Western perspective, but kind of like the hero's journey and everything and Joseph Campbell, and like, how much of an impact that had on the edits for the original Star Wars trilogy. So I think that was like also something that spoke to like my nerdy, myth loving soul, like at that time, and I was like, okay, like, Yeah, this is a fandom, I'm gonna stick around and like, watch whatever they make.

[KARLI] I want to have taken that class. That sounds fantastic.

[GRETA] Yeah, it was, it was an awesome class.

[JAMIE] And like, nowadays, we're always like, oh, the chosen one. But it's because of things like that, like Joseph Campbell, like, they are very impactful stories. And these are the stories that kind of shaped generations. Yeah. And that's why even though there are times where some of those stories feel contrived or forced, we're still gonna like those stories when they're done well.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Because they just speak to us on a level of like, a nostalgic level.

[KARLI] Yeah, reminiscent of that, yeah.

[JAMIE] There are certain fandoms…

[GRETA] Oh my gosh.

[JAMIE] That are very adamant [Karli laughs] about what they believe, or canon.

[GRETA] Yep.

[JAMIE] Or things like that. And Star Wars is one of those fandoms.

[KARLI] Yes.

[GRETA] It is.

[JAMIE] And so maybe you won't agree with everything I say, but I'm fine with that.

[GRETA] Yeah, I feel like if I don't have an opinion that like, annoys someone then I probably am not being honest. [all laugh]

[KARLI] That is a great way to put that. Absolutely. Yeah, I had a conversation recently with a couple of people that are way more into Star Wars than I am, like, they've read all of the books and comics and everything. And they like they know, the lore and the fandom like the back of their hand. And I'm like, I don't know, I don't know, all that stuff. So my opinions are formed based on just my own perspectives, which is, you know, everybody, and so like, I can't possibly make informed choices on things that I've not read.

[GRETA] Yeah, true.

[JAMIE] It would be interesting to speak with somebody who watched the original series, and then got really into it and read all the books because there are so many, once you've read all that, like that all becomes canon in your head.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And then they decide to start making more movies. I wonder if like, that's still canon to them, or if they like accepted the new movies, or, I don't know, I don't know anybody who's read all the books like that. So maybe I'll never know. But case study would be interesting.

[KARLI] But from the people I have talked to, they have a very difficult time accepting the prequels and the new movies. It's like for them, the original trilogy, Episodes IV, V, & VI. And then all of the books and that sort of media, they actually even like the animated series better than they like the live action stuff.

[JAMIE] I've heard fantastic things about Clone Wars and all those like to the point where I'm like, I should watch them. But yeah, I would really, really liked them. I mean,

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] So speaking of which, I mean, since we're kind of talking about all the different like mediums that the Star Wars universe has, has worked in what ones for you guys are the ones that are like the strongest examples of storytelling for you.

[GRETA] I was just gonna say like, my primary experience of it has been the movies. Like I have not watched a ton of like Clone Wars and Rebels. I have not played the video games. I've watched the Disney spin off shows. That's primarily been my experience with it. So obviously, the original like the classic trilogy, I think is like great. People give the prequels a lot of hate. And I can understand why. I think there's some cool ideas in there like maybe even like cooler ideas than some of the spin off shows. Like some strong characters and stuff. So like I have enjoyed my experience of watching the movies, especially at the sequel trilogy. I think there's some writing decisions that like I don't necessarily agree with, but like, yeah, just in terms of like stronger storytelling, I guess like probably the classic trilogy is my favorite. And then the prequels I didn't think for like terrible from from a storytelling perspective, I suppose. Yeah, that's that's been my primary experience is just the movies.

[JAMIE] I'M almost exactly the same. I haven't watched anything besides the movies and the Disney spin off series that have come out in recent years. Like you said, people give the prequels a lot of hate. But I mean, if I was going to rank them, like the original series is the best story in Arc that's executed, the cleanest. Yeah. And then the prequels, I feel like is a good, good story arc of how somebody gets to be who they are, and—

[KARLI] It's a tragedy.

[JAMIE] And all the things that are going on the world and a big development about the world, the universe that they're in. And I'm not happy with any of the last three movies, but then there's also Solo and Rogue One. And so I've seen all those as well. It's like every single one I have a different opinion about.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[GRETA] Yeah. And I'll say like, maybe we'll get into this when we talk about characters, but I think like Anakin/Darth Vader's arc is like one of the strongest in the entire franchise. And so like my enjoyment of the prequels is like giving him that development that like you don't necessarily see for villains in like any of the other storytelling media. So like, that's what makes his arc complete to me. And I think there's parts of the prequels that are just fun, too.

[KARLI] Yes. And I love that you brought up the Darth Vader's arc, because that is one of the things that really, because originally, I liked the Episodes I,II & III, because I was younger. And then as I got older, I started seeing like the, you know, the cracks the flaws, and I was like, oh, okay, I can—I can see people's problem. You know, I always thought Jar Jar Binks was annoying. So like, I totally, totally get that, that quibble, it's fair. But that's a tragedy arc. And I think a lot of people's argument with it is like, oh, it would be better if it followed Obi Wan Kenobi. And I'm like, well, I mean, I mean, yes, we love Ewan McGregor. But it's following a yeah, a dissent. It's a dissent. It's a tragedy. It's a negative character arc. And that's not necessarily as popular as, you know, a positive arc.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] But yeah, watching that through the original trilogy and seeing his full arc and how that comes to a close is really powerful. Yeah, I mean, I agree with the two of you that the original trilogy is the stronger, the strongest, I think of them. And then after that, for me, I loved Rogue One. I thought that that one was very well done. I really appreciated that story.

[JAMIE] I liked that one as well. I think I didn't even really think about those one off movies. I was thinking more of like the, the arc that we've been following of each trilogy.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] How do you feel about the new stuff, though, the first the next three after that?

[KARLI] Me or her or anybody?

[JAMIE] Both of you.

[KARLI] Everybody.

[GRETA] So I'll just be honest, that like, I enjoyed my experience of watching those movies. I really enjoyed some of the new characters that were created. Like my favorite aspect of those movies is just like the tension in both sides of the forest like, which is something I enjoy about like all of the movies, just kind of like that pole between the dark and the light. So like Ray and Kylo Ren's arc is my favorite thing to like, follow through those stories. I don't agree with like, how it was dealt with in all of the movies, and I probably liked The Force Awakens the best. I actually fairly enjoyed The Last Jedi. There were parts of that movie that I thought were too long and like did not make sense to the plot. But like that continuing arc of like Ray and Kylo Ren, I enjoyed. And then the third movie I did not appreciate as much.

[JAMIE] What is the third movie even called?

[GRETA] Rise of Skywalker.

[JAMIE] Oh, I remember now because me and my husband were like, why did they name it? [Karli laughs] That doesn't make any sense. It was a cash grab. Like that name was just designed to make people put butts in seats.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] See, now I'm having all sorts of strong opinions.

[KARLI] All the opinions. I agree with Greta, I enjoyed The Force Awakens the most. I enjoyed aspects of all of the newer movies. I thought that there were some things that they did really well. Some characters I really enjoyed, some new faces in the Star Wars universe that were really exciting to see there. But yeah, like just they went out in the weeds on some weird stuff and just the choices that they made. And then obviously I don't care for how it came to a conclusion. I am—I like the darkest timeline sort of scenario. So I honestly think that either they both should have died or...

[JAMIE] Both or neither.

[KARLI] Both or neither, or no, no, not at all or or opposite. And then And then, you know, he would have had to like deal with the ramifications of all of that. And I think that would have made for more interesting storytelling, but I understand why they didn't do that. I totally get it. But I'm just always like, okay, but like, what would it be like after, if that happened? You know? I guess they were trying to close it out on a happy note. And like, you know, hope for the future. And like all that, and I get it, I get it.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Funny, because I don't even really remember a lot of things that happened. So as you say things, I realize stuff, but I agree that it should have been flipped, because then it would have left you with an ambiguous of yes, he has to deal with the ramifications of what that happens. But it also leaves you with that ambiguous sense of hope. You don't know exactly where he's going after that.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Right.

[JAMIE] So I think that you guys are right, like the characters are really the thing that save it, or, you know, they they're the thing that you show up for, because a lot of the choices that they ended up making felt like a missed opportunity. Like, oh, maybe they'll do this. And then you're like, oh, I guess they're just gonna do that instead. Because it's easy.

[GRETA] Yeah, there was like a lack of continuity from movie to movie. And just like a lot of things that were introduced that were then reversed later. So like a lot of the new characters that were introduced in The Last Jedi who could have been really cool and had either some development as like, yeah, allies, or villains or anything. Like they were just kind of discarded by the end of the movie. And their arcs meant nothing. So that was kind of frustrating.

[JAMIE] Yeah, there was so much in house dealing with who's directing and rolling back decisions the previous director hadn't made and reshoots that like that the, all the background Hollywood noise...

[KARLI] Came out in the movie.

[JAMIE] Contributed, instead of just being an artistic thing that was executed by one or like a group of people. It was like shifting and changing. And all of that came through in the storytelling. Yeah. Which is a bummer.

[KARLI] It is a bummer. But I am... I don't know I—I’m willing to have opinions of like, I didn't care for certain movies, in the franchise or shows or whatever media. But at the same time, I'm not gonna like get mad at somebody who liked them.

[GRETA] Yeah, absolutely.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Well, that's not what we're doing.

[KARLI] I'm not going to, you know, throw shade at them for liking it there. We all like different things. And whatever, like works for you works for you. And that's fantastic. You—you do you.

[GRETA] Yeah. And that's, that's one of the things that I was thinking about is like, part of the, like, the cool factor of Star Wars or just like, what draws you to it is like the world and like, yeah, like the lightsabers and like the setting of the story and space and stuff. And like, even the original trilogy, like even if the storytelling is stronger, like there's parts of it that are campy and corny, and like not the best executed. But it's just fun. And I think like, with the Disney spin off shows and stuff, like I will watch all of those, like, they are fun to me. Like it's cool to see what they do with the world, like how they develop that, like what else is out there. Those kinds of things. I thought The Mandalorian the first season was great. I enjoyed that quite a bit. And so I think in terms of storytelling, like it was a happy medium of like referencing some of the things that were familiar and like draw people to the original trilogy, but it was enough of its own story that it could stand on its own. And so like with Rogue One, too, like that was enough of a setup that like referenced events that people recognize from the main trilogy, like it wasn't filling in too much of a gap or like relying too much on nostalgia. Like it stood on its own. And I think like those are my favorite Star Wars stories that are like a little bit separate from the main trilogies like the Skywalker Saga. So I enjoyed both of those.

[KARLI] Same.

[JAMIE] It's nice to have a completed story that's far enough away from the main plot, but in the world, because I agree, like it's the world that people are interested in. And that's why I think the prequels were so exciting because people love the original, they were thirsty for more. And the prequels did a really good job of giving us that of showing us more of Tatooine. Of showing us all these different places that like for years people wanted

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And then they were finally being given more and more of the universe.

[KARLI] Yes, the what else is out there that you said like, that's what will that's what keeps me coming back every time and while you know, there are certain shows or movies that I am less satisfied with or I'm disappointed by or I'm frustrated by even, I still keep coming back because I want to see what they're doing and I want to, I want more. I want to see more of the universe and see more characters getting pulled into that and they're stories and we've got some exciting ones on the horizon already. And it's, it's really cool to see what they're doing. And I'll keep showing up and hoping for the best. And, you know, if it's if it misses the mark, it's not the end of the world. [laughs]

[GRETA] It doesn't detract from your enjoyment of the main stories or the stories that you did enjoy, yeah.

[KARLI] It doesn't have to take away from it, you know.

[JAMIE] What else is coming out? What do they have, like you said it was on the horizon.

[GRETA] We have the Disney plus shows for Andor. Captain Andor, from Rogue One. And I think Ahsoka is getting their own show.

[KARLI] That's the one I'm most excited about, I think that—mmm!

[JAMIE] Yeah, cuz I agree. I'm like, The Mandalorian was fantastic. And all of the parts where he's in other things, were also fantastic.

[JAMIE] But not the other, not the other parts of those things. [Greta and Jamie chuckle] And then we just finished Kenobi, which was very good at being like that nostalgic, return to a beloved character. That was nice. And it was a very cinematic experience. I will say that my tagline was "Obi Wan Kenobi, the stakes have never been lower." [Karli laughs]

[GRETA] Agreed. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yeah, that's fair.

[JAMIE] You already know—

[KARLI] I mean, you're not wrong. Yeah, I agree with that assessment. I loved the nostalgic return. I love Ewan McGregor. I love his portrayal of what that would be like for Obi Wan after everything happened. And I enjoyed watching that. But yeah, [laughing] the stakes have never been lower.

[JAMIE] But it is nice to see that because it all plays into more of the arc of Darth Vader. Because it was like he was his padawan like he, and he feels responsible for everything that's happening, like, kind of rightfully so.

[KARLI] Understandably so.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah. Which I mean, which plays into you know, like Luke and him feeling responsible for what happened with Kylo. And like, all of that stuff, it, it's mirrored, and I and I enjoy that they, they keep bringing themes back around. We're there for the characters, and we're there for the themes. And those are the things that really sit with us and resonate, and they, they're enduring.

[JAMIE] So it is nice that there's sometimes mirroring in story. At any level, do you feel like the exact mirroring of Luke and Kylo to Obi Wan and Anakin is too on the nose? That like basically the exact same thing happens?

[KARLI] [sighs] I mean...

[JAMIE] Doesn't Kylo even like, kill his other students? Like just how Anakin kills all the youngling's?

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] I mean, if you got down to it, storytelling wise, I would have liked to see something different happen. However, when you're dealing with, you know, the Sith and The Dark Side of the Force, like they want all of the people on the light side obliterated. So like, how else are you going to do that? Sure, they could have come up with a better, clever way to like slaughter everybody. But you know, how many unique ways can we slaughter people in these movies? I don't know. Just saying.

[GRETA] Yeah, this is where it gets into, like parts of the story that are there and that I probably latch on to and like have more ideas about than they ever like executed or like had in the actual text of cannon like I think it would be super cool to delve more into like The Knights of Ren and like what was going on there with like the manipulation of Kylo like as a child, and things like that. That would have been a two way to like take that in a little bit of a different direction. So, that was a choice they could have made. But...

[KARLI] It is a choice they could have made that they tend to not dig in where you really want them to.

[GRETA] Right.

[KARLI] And I mean, I think as a whole in like the whole universe I've seen like there are moments where I'm like, I want more of that. Like why can't we have more of that? So.

[JAMIE] Yeah, personally, I can't solve it off the top of my head because I just thought of this question. But overall, to me, it feels like the lazy choice.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah. It’s, it's redundant. Like they could have mirrored it, or they could have echoed it in a different way. I don't know how, like you said, but yeah.

[JAMIE] Greta is making the good point of there's so much in those books that we anybody who's only watching the movies don't know about that. Like there's, there's got to be canon that they could have mined out of those things. There's hundreds of, that's like a whole galaxy, right. The Hollywood levels. It's so it's like you can't. I don't know.

[KARLI] All right, favorite character arcs. Ready go.

[JAMIE] You kind of I already touched on Darth Vader's arc earlier, Karli. And one of the reasons why I think that people like the his arc so much, is because there's really not a huge amount of examples of degrading arcs. Comparatively like, there's really only a few. And if you guys can think of any I would love to hear it. But like, pretty much I think of Darth Vader, and the Smallville version of Lex Luthor, where you can really see why they become who they end up being.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] You kind of want more of those, because we have anti heroes, but these people aren't anti heroes, there's a huge difference.

[KARLI] It's a distinct trip of becoming a villain. Yeah.

[JAMIE] I think that that's one of the reasons why it sticks out so much is that we don't have a lot of things to sit it next to and compare it to. Compared to having heroes.

[GRETA] Yeah, that's a really good point. And I am not thinking of a ton of examples outside of Star Wars right now, because I was just kind of thinking about Star Wars and like their handling of tragic arcs and villains. And just the fact that like so many of the villainous characters in Star Wars don't get much development, that Anakin's arc, like in comparison seems a lot more satisfying; because some of the characters that had the potential to be like really cool and like really impactful to the story like Darth Maul, or like Snoke, and things like that just kind of get built up. Like they have a cool set piece and then they just get discarded, like within one movie.

[KARLI] Right. I agree. And I was like, trying to wrack my brain for arcs like that. And I just I can't think of very many because you're right, there aren't as many and I find them fascinating.

[JAMIE] Yeah, cuz it's like we have we have stories of like a villain or a bad guy, but not how would you start off like, all the opportunity in the world kid. Bright eyed, bushy tailed, boom. Darth Vader. I'll have to research to see if I can find them.

[KARLI] I know. I want to find more too. I'm like off the top of my head. I can't. There's—they're out there.

[JAMIE] I'm sure Google will try and just show me a whole bunch of anti heroes. And I'll be like Google, you don't understand anything.

[KARLI] You don't understand me. Move along. Move along.

[JAMIE] These are not the villains you were looking for.

[KARLI] Yeah, I would have liked to see more of different ones like Darth Maul. [clears throat] Darth Maul. [clears throat] Darth Maul.

[JAMIE] Is it weird that I remember having like a little crush on Darth Maul?

[KARLI] Oh!

[GRETA] Not weird at all. [all laugh]

[KARLI] I had a hard on for Darth Maul for sure.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] For sure.

[GRETA] I think we all sat there with like our jaws on the floor and we're like—

[KARLI] Mmmm!

[JAMIE] Look at him spin and kick people's ass. I love that in a man.

[KARLI] I could get into that.

[GRETA] We all love Darth Maul. Who else?

[KARLI] Yeah. [laugh]

[JAMIE] Sorry I didn't mean to distract you with the thought of Darth Maul.

[KARLI] Is it hot in here? [laughs] We were talking about uh, character arcs that we enjoyed is there any other? [laughs]

[JAMIE] Oh is that what we were talking about? Because I was just thinking about about Darth Maul.

[KARLI] Fair.

[JAMIE] Sorry, sorry. Sorry. Also isn't the guy who played Darth Maul also plays Nightcrawler in X Men? All right, sorry. We can go on with characters while I google that.

[KARLI] Okay, please do because I want to know.

[JAMIE] His name is Ray Park, and he played Toad in X Men, just so you guys know.

[GRETA] [laughs] Cool.

[KARLI] I like it. I like it. Greta, do you have any in mind that you really enjoyed their arc?

[GRETA] Yeah, I mean, like, this is such a low bar answer. But I enjoy Luke's arc in the original trilogy, he's the chosen one. He's like the protagonist. I always enjoy characters that have kind of like internal like, and this is this is the thing that I like about Star Wars too is the force is just kind of like this great device for getting at character's internal motivations and kind of like their pull towards their darker self. So like wrestling with that made me really like Luke, and like Ray to a degree too. And then the numerous stories too, and Kylo Ren. Like all of those characters that are kind of dealing with that burden of do I become the next Jedi? Like do I become the person who's like taking on this responsibility of bringing balance to the force, being this force in the galaxy with like, all of these responsibilities attached to it? So I think like, the characters that wrestle with that are my favorites.

[JAMIE] Like, they're, they're making, like a huge commitment. So it makes sense that they're just not like, alright, I'll do it.

[KARLI] I think the thing that a lot of people, maybe, that I've talked to struggle with seeing is that they're like, well, of course, you wouldn't pick the dark side, like what's wrong with you? You know, like the, it's not so like, oh, am I do I be evil or do I be good like it doesn't—It's just like in real life, there's a series of small choices that lead us down these paths and I think that that's why the original trilogy is so compelling is because the series of choices the Anakin makes that lead him down that path makes sense. I mean, and so we didn't get to see Kylo's we didn't get to watch how that played out.

[GRETA] Yeah. And I think actually like that kind of Jedi Sith split. The like good versus evil story. Like that is a lot of pressure to kind of choose how that's gonna play out in your life. And like as a character, like seeing Anakin, like wrestle with those choices in the prequels, like you can understand how he turned out the way he was, like the things that he was being asked to do in order to like, be an exemplary Jedi. So yeah, I just I love seeing like characters wrestle with that and like the choices that they make.

[KARLI] I definitely agree with that. I think it makes for dynamic storytelling, because there's that push and pull.

[JAMIE] Because I'm mostly trying to focus on the movies, but like, obviously, within anywhere in the world, it's Din Djarin. Character arc wise, although I would like him to stop taking off his frickin' helmet for God's sake.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] But anyway, that's a whole different issue. I guess. Some people want to see his face more I want to see his face less. [laughs]

[KARLI] It has nothing to do with his face.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] It has everything to do—

[JAMIE] No it's everything to do with the character.

[KARLI] Exactly.

[JAMIE] So that's the first one that I think like in the world that we know, and most compelling arc, but I feel like it's kind of a funny thing to say because it's not complete yet. It's it's very developing. But I'm most excited about that. And maybe it's because it's still developing. And then as far as the stories go, I think that Padme's arc is beautiful. And Natalie Portman did a really good job and it's tragic and heart wrenching.

[KARLI] My favorite and we will not be discussing what happens to my favorite stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking nerf herder in the new movies—or I will cry—but Han Solo's arc in the original trilogy.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] I love because I love that scruffy rogue, like doing my own thing. But I really do have more of a heart than I like to let on and I loved—Han Solo is my all time like that's my that's my Star Wars person.

[JAMIE] His arc is anti-hero to reluctant hero.

[GRETA AND KARLI] Yes.

[GRETA] That's a great progression. And I was hoping somebody would bring it up because like, I think I do tend more towards the chosen ones, the mystics, the mentors, even. But Han has a great arc. I liked him too.

[JAMIE] Another character that I feel is similar in that respect is another space cowboy. And that's Mal from—

[GRETA] Firefly.

[JAMIE] Serenity and Firefly.

[KARLI] Yes, absolutely.

[JAMIE] And their, and their outfits are so good, both of them. [chuckles]

[KARLI] I mean, seriously, I want to, I want to cosplay. Real bad. We did already kind of touch on this one. But like Obi Wan Kenobi's arc, like when you look at it from Episode I. And now that we have the series and all the way through to A New Hope and how that plays out it. You know, it's a good one. It's It's tragic, as well.

[JAMIE] It spans decades.

[KARLI] Spans decades. I feel really bad, because I haven't seen Rogue One and so long, even though I love it, but I can't think of like the characters and they're—like, I loved their arcs.

[GRETA] Yeah. And I think like I was gonna say that too. And I kind of wonder if it is because like, that's a one off movie. Like, their arcs are complete. They were short, they were definitive. They like made choices under pressure and like demonstrated their like loyalty or their beliefs. Like, I think that movie is so good. And like that's probably one of the reasons like nothing is left hanging.

[KARLI] Yeah, they had a very distinctive point in time to work with. And there wasn't much wiggle room. And I think sometimes where Star Wars gets off in the weeds is because they have so much wiggle room. They're like, Ooo, we could do this, and this and this, and this and this, and they can't make choices. And they're like, let's have all of it.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] And that doesn't, that doesn't always make for a good story. And so with, you know, like Rogue One, it's a very, like, you don't have much room to wiggle there. There's the thing that happens. And that's it.

[JAMIE] And my favorite part is I'll watch anything with Donnie Yen in it. chuckles]

[KARLI] Mmm. Yes. He's fantastic.

[GRETA] Really, really great. He was probably my favorite character in that movie.

[JAMIE] I like that movie. It's a really good story, but I'm like, but Donnie Yen is definitely my favorite part of it. [Jamie and Karli chuckle]

[KARLI] That's fair. All right. Are there any ones that we want to touch on that like you know, we could do without or do we want to just like mmm...

[JAMIE] I would never do say that the Boba Fett series shouldn't exist, [Karli laughs] because some of those episodes are vital to your boy Din Djarin. But I'll say I did see a meme that was like a joke of people complaining that Boba Fett wasn't badass enough in his new series. But it was like a clip from the original series of Boba Fett getting like slammed into a wall pretty easily. And they were like, why are we acting like Boba Fett was like a big deal? [Jamie and Karli laugh]

[KARLI] I think we had this mental image built up in our heads of him.

[JAMIE] We did, we did.

[KARLI] And, and they kind of s#*! all over that, in my opinion.

[JAMIE] I mean, even in the original series, he got thrown to a sandworm like he couldn't have been that badass.

[KARLI] I mean, that was a very chaotic situation. [Jamie laughs] Jedi and Han Solo were involved. Chewy was there, you know,

[JAMIE] Laia's in her bikini and it's very distracting.

[KARLI] Laia's in her slave bikini. You know, R2-D2's doing crazy stuff. Never underestimate a droid.

[JAMIE] In the Boba Fett series, there are characters that they introduced that are really compelling. Do either of you remember the name of the sheriff? Whoever Timothy Olyphant is playing.

[KARLI] [Karli makes interested grunting noises] I mean, we want to discuss.

[JAMIE] I have a problem today. [all laugh] So there were good things that came out of the Boba Fett series. Yes, but what that was not one of them.

[GRETA] Boba Fett didn't appear in half the episodes of his own show. So.

[GRETA] Those were the best episodes. [Greta and Jamie laugh]

[KARLI] I mean, I like the actor. I just don't like what they did with the actor.

[GRETA] Agreed. Yeah.

[KARLI] The choices that they made.

[JAMIE] I'm talking about the character the writing choices.

[KARLI] Okay. Okay, cuz I'm just saying.

[JAMIE] I'm not coming at him.

[KARLI] Better not. [Greta chuckles]

[JAMIE] Why? What will happen?

[KARLI] I just, I don't know. Nothing, [Jamie laughs] probably. But like—

[JAMIE] Empty threats.

[KARLI] You—you know how I feel about Boba Fett. I have a painting of him in my bathroom.

[JAMIE] In closing to talk about Boba Fett. It's nice that they're still filling the world with interesting characters. They're also filling the world with characters that you can just throw away. The red shirts of Star Wars.

[GRETA] Yes, I will say though like even in the sequel trilogy, and some of the newer stuff. Some of the new characters that they've introduced are like people I really enjoy watching and like characters I really enjoy watching. The side characters in the Boba Fett show like did not make an impression on me a good impression on me, like, very few of them were people that I like, want to follow or know more about.

[JAMIE] Pretty much just that sheriff.

[GRETA] Agreed.

[KARLI] Right?!

[JAMIE] [laughing] That's the only one I could think of.

[KARLI] But yeah, there are definite side characters and the other ones like Mandalorian that you are super compelled by their story and they felt very—well earned screen time for them.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] In The Mandalorian, the how do I describe them? The one who makes all of their beskar into armor.

[JAMIE] The Armorer.

[JAMIE] The Armorer?

[GRETA] That is her name, yeah.

[JAMIE] I really like her—

[KARLI] Super compelling.

[JAMIE] Her voice is great. And that actress also was in supernatural as Amara.

[GRETA] Yeah. Yeah, she was one of the characters that I wrote down that I would like to see more about.

[KARLI] Yes, yes, absolutely.

[JAMIE] I want to know her backstory.

[GRETA] That's a fantastic cosplay. Also. If you are ever going to, if you're ever going to cosplay character.

[KARLI] So I mean, on that note, what would you guys like to see more of in the Star Wars universe?

[GRETA] Yeah, so I had a very definitive answer on this one, I would love to see more stories about force users that are like outside of the Jedi, Sith binary. I just think it's such a compelling aspect of the story. Like I love stories with soft magic. Just like the potential that there is to like deal with inner conflict and just like cool powers and stuff through that medium and I think we're starting to see like a little bit of that with—spoilers—some of the characters in The Mandalorian and stuff like that. Well and even in Rogue One, too, like a couple of those characters were like Guardians of the Whills who have forced abilities.

[JAMIE] Yeah, force sensitive and all those things.

[KARLI] Yeah, that force sensitivity without being a Jedi Knight.

[GRETA] Yeah, without that kind of like dogmatic split. Like kind of outside of like the, the moralistic, like light versus dark. Like what is the nuance there?

[JAMIE] Yeah, to break out of that like false dichotomy of if you have any of these you have to pick a path to be more like people with more agency.

[GRETA] Exactly.

[KARLI] Well, I mean, even from the standpoint of I'm trying to think of exactly what Yoda says, but they turn people away, who have forced sensitivity. In episodes one, two, and three, somewhere in there, they hint at that. Or maybe they say it directly, I don't remember. But there's gotta be people out there that have force sensitivity that are living moderately normal lives, like there's more going on than, exactly, then these two did very distinctive and present entities.

[GRETA] And I do think like part of the draw of the original trilogy is it is that very classic, like, hero's journey, like story of good versus evil. But I think like, in the direction that a lot of stories are going to kind of, like, get away from the cliches of those tropes to just like, explore more of that nuance would be something that like, that's one of the aspects that we talked about, like earlier like that they don't like go into detail about the parts of the story that you want them to. And that is like a part of the story that I would like to see more of.

[KARLI] Yes, same like with Finn, you know, he, Stormtrooper and he was like, I don't like this. There's gotta be more people. I mean, they're out there. Like, you know, obviously, like Obi Wan. And there's, there are a couple that we're starting to get to see that are like, I don't like what's happening.

[JAMIE] If I'm going to see and enjoy more Star Wars stuff, I feel like it needs to be its own. I'm kind of overdosed on nostalgia. I feel like nostalgia is now a crutch. Let's move away from using nostalgia to try and evoke an emotion that is feeling forced.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Get us like some distance from these characters in these choices. Use the world. But give us new storylines.

[KARLI] Yeah, well, which I think I'm hopeful for um, I always forget her name. The new the Jedi...

[GRETA] Ahsoka.

[KARLI] Ahsoka. Yeah, I am i I'm hopeful for that one for that reason.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I'm still skeptical of that one. Because she's such a huge part of the animated series.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, when talking to another fellow Star Wars nerd, much deeper in it than me, brought up a whole bunch of characters that are like in the animated series that are really cool and really compelling. And it really, I had not had much desire to see the animated series before talking to him. But now I'm like, okay, well, there's—sounds like there's a lot more going on than what meets the eye upon like, first glance.

[JAMIE] From what I've heard, it really builds on Anakin story quite a bit, put it, put it on my list.

[GRETA] From what I've heard this year, like at this year's Star Wars Celebration, that was kind of like the announcement that the writers made that they're moving away from the Skywalker saga into more like original storytelling.

[KARLI] Oh, cool. I missed that. Nice.

[GRETA] So it might be more to see and analyze.

[KARLI] So Greta, do you have a Two-Cent Recommendation for us this week?

[GRETA] I do. And it is a double recommendation. If you have not watched Rogue One recently, like just go and watch, rewatch Rogue One. That's what we watched on May the Fourth this year, and it had been a while. And it's just like a good example of like some of the stuff we were talking about where the arcs of those characters like do get capped off in a more satisfying way. Like it references the nostalgia of the original trilogy without being like, going too far into detail and filling in gaps that don't need to be filled in. Yeah, if you want to quickly like delve in, just go rewatch that. And then the other thing I wanted to recommend is actually a fanfiction of someone who has a book deal coming out next year. She was recognized like for her Reylo fanfiction, and like picked up by a traditional publisher. But what I want to recommend to you is her two parts Sword of the Jedi series. If you were frustrated by Kylo Ren's arc, and what happened at the Jedi Academy and kind of the events that diverged from there, and how that may have paralleled too much what happened with Anakin, this is kind of like a re exploration of what would have happened if Kylo remained at the Jedi Academy and studied with Luke and Rey showed up there as a child. So this like goes through the events of the sequel trilogy. And it is like longer than novels. Like this is a two part series. Like Young Gods is the first one and To Kingdom Come is the second one. But these are by her username is @disasterisms on Archive of Our Own, or Ao3.org. Her name is Thea Guanzon. Sorry if I'm messing that up. But she has a book coming out in 2023 that's based on one of her works called The Hurricane Wars. And so that's just going to be a Southeast Asian inspired space fantasy, I believe.

[JAMIE] Oooo I'm in.

[KARLI] You have me.

[JAMIE] Also we will have you send us the link and then we can put it in the description of the episode.

[KARLI] Cool. Well, I love talking nerd stuff with you guys. So thank you for humoring me. I really wanted this episode.

[JAMIE] It's been a long time coming.

[KARLI] It has been a long time coming. I've been hinting at it as often as Jamie will let me. [laughs]

[JAMIE] And we could not have picked a better guest to come and talk to us about.

[GRETA] Aw.

[JAMIE] Thank you Greta.

[KARLI] Thank you. Thank you so much for being here.

[GRETA] Thanks for having me. This was fun.

[KARLI] Thanks for listening everybody. You can find Greta @greta.valentine.writes on Instagram. Greta's got links in her bio so that you can read her story, “The Raven Wife.” It's fantastic. You can find us by clicking the links in the description of this episode. We're on Instagram, Twitter, we got a website, newsletter all the cool stuff. Thanks, guys. And may the force be with you all.