S2 Ep.20 The Five Man Band

The Five Man Band - Transcript

[JAMIE] I don't know how long ago or what episode it was last season, but after a year-and-a-half, my glasses actually fit me. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] I'm so happy for you. I'm potentially concerned for you that it took a year and a half. But...

[JAMIE] Yeah, I mean, and it was like a free appointment. It cost me nothing but time. It makes such a difference too. I'm like, oh, it's amazing. They don't just like slide off my face every I move. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Who'da thought! You knew exactly where to go. And exactly what to do. You just actively chose not to do that thing.

[JAMIE] Pathetic. All right, let's get started. [both laugh]

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Welcome back to The Act Break. The podcast where we are not experts. Just a disclaimer up front. I feel like that's really important to emphasize this year. [both laugh]

[KARLI] We really want to hammer that one home.

[JAMIE] We're here because we enjoy talking and hearing the sound of our own voice. [Karli laughs] No, we just want to get together. Talk about story stuff. Uh, not experts. Yeah. Oh, I'm Jamie. [both laugh]

[KARLI] And? [laughs]

[JAMIE] And I don't know, I just didn't feel like my role was very important today. [laughing] Even though I'm supposed to be in charge.

[KARLI] And I'm Karli and I did the preparation today.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] I just wanted to pat myself on the back for that one.

[JAMIE] Today, we are choosing to talk about something I will admit that until very recently, I didn't even realize there was like a name for. I knew what it was in structure and theory. And then somebody started talking about the five man band. And I was like, oh, I didn't know that that's what it was called. Which is ironic, because I have—we have like a whole podcast about stuff.

[KARLI] There's always room for learning new things here.

[JAMIE] Exactly. I mostly just considered it in ensemble cast. But like there's a specific name for archetypes within this. And that's what we're talking about today. The five man band if ensembles interest you, we also have an episode about found family tropes. And there's overlap in these two dynamics.

[KARLI] I agree.

[JAMIE] So mostly, I feel like we were just we'll just like lay out what it is. chat about some of the archetypes within it.

[KARLI] Some of our favorites.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Mostly I just have a massive list of [laughing] all of my favorite examples.

[JAMIE] I'm really interested in hearing what your list is.

[KARLI] My preparation consisted of me talking about all of my favorite things. So basically, this entire episode is Karli's recommendations. So you can give a rec at the end.

[JAMIE] Perfect. Let's start with explaining what the five man band is. Uh, I don't—What do you want to call it?

[KARLI] It's a character driven storytelling device.

[JAMIE] Sort of is. I mean it—because it's like a structure for characters and how they interact. But it's also like character archetypes fit within it. What the five man band consists of is first off the leader, your main protagonist.

[KARLI] Yeah, the hero archetype. Yes. The leader of the band.

[JAMIE] Yes, the one that is faced with the tough decisions. That's number one. Number two is called the Lancer. This is going to be usually second command, but also, because the first one it's like the leader, the protagonist, but each one after that is much more of a character archetype. There are traits within each of these characters. And so for the Lancer, that's usually somebody who has enough clout that they can come up against the leader.

[KARLI] Often they are the foil to the hero. They serve as the second in command, the person who questions the leader or backs up the leader, or all of those, all of those things, any of those things.

[JAMIE] Third, we have the smart guy. He's the person who's coming up with the ideas. The guy they go to for solutions. He's the scientist in the situation. He's the Q in James Bond, he's the guy with solutions.

[KARLI] And if the hero is a smarter type that's coming up with plans, the smart guy will be the one that figures out what the hero is trying to do or the leader's trying to do and handily explain it to the rest of the group.

[JAMIE] Yes. Fourth, we have the big guy, the muscle, the enforcer of group. The person that everybody turns to when they need something, you know, [dramatic wisper] taken care of taken care of, usually intimidating.

[KARLI] He's loyal and—but lovable.

[JAMIE] Exactly. He's usually tough on the outside, soft on the inside.

[KARLI] That's right.

[JAMIE] Many times. And then the fifth has several names, but I prefer to use the term heart, the heart of the story.

[KARLI] Same.

[JAMIE] The person who's emotionally grounding everybody, and bringing people together and making sure people's emotional needs are kind of being met as well.

[KARLI] I would argue that these are the people that keeps the five man band together, or puts it back together when it falls apart, or is the facilitator for that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, they often are the ones that are like openly stating themes that run throughout. And there it is, folks have a nice week. No I'm just kidding.

[KARLI] We out.

[JAMIE] And the more you look through literature, and film, you'll see these patterns, these archetypes mirrored, it works for a reason. These five characters click because they're meeting needs for a writer in particular, to be like, I need this to happen. This is the kind of thing this particular character would do. Yeah, because they're already set up to play that role.

[KARLI] Because individually, they all have their strengths. But together, they are equipped to handle a wide array of situations.

[JAMIE] Yes, so I'm really interested in your, your list.

[KARLI] Oh, my goodness. It's interesting, because as I was going through trying to find some of my favorites that were in my mind, some of them aren't like strictly five man band, some of them have more, some of them have less. And so that kind of falls into like different ways that writers can... can utilize the five man band because what ends up happening is most of the time, the five man band is the five man band. But there are also times where you can combine different archetypes together, like the Lancer can also be the smart guy or the big guy or the heart. And so you can play around with dynamics like that. Like for example, Cowboy Bebop is technically fulfills the five man band, they just have certain characters smushed together, because there's four of them.

[JAMIE] I was thinking about that too, because you can squish it together where it's like this person is going to be the big guy and the heart, they're going to do both. But also, you can do a slow build, depending on your story. There might be sections of your story where these other archetypes aren't in it. But the way you build your story is that it is part of the arc that these people join. As the journey unfolds.

[KARLI] They don't have to start out together. And actually like I enjoy stories where there's, there's a slow build to the team, where you know, maybe there's one or two together at first or three of them together at first, or even just one and then it slowly adds on. And then by the time you reach the end, you have all of these people together or even the midpoint and you can watch these dynamics form and build and it's very enjoyable.

[JAMIE] Wheel of Time, The Lord of the Rings, there's all sorts of where characters meet in different places, all to come together at like a pivotal point.

[KARLI] Absolutely. And then there's also random like extras that sometimes get thrown into the five man band. The team pet, which would be like in the first book, especially of Twilight, that's Bella to the Cullens. And then eventually... [Jamie and Karli laugh] I saw that I cannot take credit for that. I found that on a website, and I cracked up so hard. But then she becomes the sixth Ranger, which is another trope within the five man band thing where like, sometimes there'll be another one that like, adds on.

[JAMIE] Well, it  is interesting to think about like the all the archetypes that come together in a story. Because often like as a writer, I'm always thinking, you know, you want to make it realistic. You want to—even if it's fantasy, you want to build characters and people that feel like they could really exist in the five man band way. Because you're like, how often does it actually work out that your group of friends or people in your life actually fit into roles? Like everybody's so complex. It's just an interesting thing.

[KARLI] I mean, think about like, friend groups, a lot of time, we'll have like, the heart, the middleman, the person that everybody goes to, when they have a problem or a problem with another member of the group [Jamie laughs] to talk it out. And so like there's usually a heart and then a lot of times there's like one who makes decisions because nobody else can make decisions and you know, like, so I think honestly, these come into play in real life.

[JAMIE] Well, exactly. The characters are built from real things that exist.

[KARLI] Yes, exactly.

[JAMIE] And that's why it works so well.

[KARLI] They're just a hyper realized version of reality, which is what we do with stories all the time. One of my favorite five man band situations is in The Princess Bride. I think that that is like chef's kiss. Great. Great.

[JAMIE] We have Wesley who's the leader, leader, and then Inigo, who would be the Lancer.

[KARLI] Yep. And then you have Fezzik is the big guy, obviously. Usually, [chuckles] they are actually physically very large. And then you have the heart is Buttercup.

[JAMIE] And then the smart guy is..

[KARLI] Oh, sorry, the smart guy. I was like, why? Who did I miss? The smart guy could technically be Vizzini.

[JAMIE] The guy who's like, bringing them back to life. He's just mostly dead.

[KARLI] [laughs] It's been a while. It's been a while.

[JAMIE] What else do you have on your list?

[KARLI] Oh, man. So I mean, obviously you brought up we'll have time but yeah, like especially book one I have the world is the very like dynamic of the five man band. Mystery Gang. I feel like I'm gonna bring up a lot of cartoons. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Oh, the Scooby Gang.

[KARLI] Scooby Doo, Shaggy, Velma. The Scooby gang. And then we've got Guardians of the Galaxy, I can keep going. Ninja Turtles, we've got Voltron. [chuckles] And I think that that's the beauty of this trope is that there is there's so many different like character subsets that you can play with, with your story interaction, like how they interact with each other, how they react to the plot, and what's going on that you can go so many different directions with this trope. For me, my favorite things about the five man band is actually a lot of times they'll have like the Lancer or the smart guy, like split off and be like, make his own thing, and then he gets in trouble. And then the group can go save him. And that can be like a really fun and even funny scenario that your characters can get into. But I really like watching when they're all together, because I really enjoy what the five man band does is give room for teamwork and friendships, and showing support and interaction between characters. And I think that that is something that's like, that's not often done well in fiction. And so I really, really enjoy the five man band because I love watching a group of people come together for common goals and learn how to respect each other, even though they're completely different from one another and work together. And I find that to be very satisfying to read and watch.

[JAMIE] Especially when it feels really earned, that they're finally together. And they're working together. That's one of my favorite parts. But mine is the step right after that. So it's great because you're like, oh, everybody's finally together, you could see them interact. Those are usually funny and like enjoyable interactions. And my favorite part, though, is actually when they go to achieve their goal. And everybody a lot of the time pairs off. And everybody has a specific objective, that we all have different strengths and weaknesses. And we're going to split off to accomplish different things that will all serve one purpose later.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It just emphasizes that we all have different strengths and weaknesses. So even though we're not all the protagonist, we all contribute, and all of our portions are vital to the ultimate outcome.

[KARLI] Yes. And if not everybody is pulling their weight, then the ultimate goal cannot be achieved. And I'm gonna take a small moment and say like, my gaming this week was actually preparation for this because I run five man dungeons in World of Warcraft.

[JAMIE] This is research.

[KARLI] Like for any of you super nerds out there. For those of you who may not know, like you have five people in your group, each of them has a specific role in what they do. And you have the tank and get stand there and whacked and then you have a healer who has to keep them alive. And then you have all of the people who are all the moving parts in order to defeat the big bad. It just made me think of that. So I had to drop it in there.

[JAMIE] She's all, "I'm working!"

[KARLI] I'm working people.

[JAMIE] I'm ready to talk about my—I have things to say about my recommendation. So it's like it's like a whole thing.

[KARLI] It's a whole thing. Okay, okay.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] I see. I see. I know exactly what you're gonna talk about.

[JAMIE] I know.

[KARLI] So I'm like, we got to give her time.

[JAMIE] I've got a lot of things to say if I'm not that much, but some it's completely impossible for my recommendation not to be Avatar The Last Airbender. [dramatic voice] What?! [normal voice] Which I know you knew. Here's some things that are why. We've told you what the archetypes are. You can take those archetypes, flip them on their head, but they could still be those archetypes. In The Last Airbender, our lancer—spoiler alert—spends most of the story trying to kill our protagonist. He has a redemption arc that's gorgeous. And he does not join until act four. Our smart guy is a jock. He wants to, you know, be a warrior, come into his own, which he does. But he is the smart guy of the story. Instead of the normal archetype. It switches that our big guy is a little blind girl. It takes almost every single, one our our heart—

[KARLI] Subverting expectations, which is so satisfying to see that done in such an effective way.

[JAMIE] Yes, our heart is closer to the original archetype. But they're also so powerful that they hold their own and are actually a teacher to the leader. I have always felt like this is like the ultimate five man band. It shows that you can take it, but you can make it fresh and original in different ways. It's also one of those ones that is a very slow build to get to the point where we have everybody accounted for. It also has the, what did you call it? The sixth—

[JAMIE] The sixth Ranger.

[JAMIE] You also have a nice mix of male and female instead of only having one female.

[KARLI] The heart. Oh wow.

[JAMIE] Yeah, the heart being the female. Our big guy is female. And so is our sixth Ranger.

[KARLI] I'm so glad that this was your recommendation, and I figured you would bring it up. But I don't know enough about it to be able to like, really dive in. But I think that's my biggest thing with a five man band is they fall, most of them fall so hard into these tropes, where the heart is always female. And the big guy is always a big guy, or you know, Chewbacca. It's so cool when somebody can take these things, and they can turn it on their head and say, what if, like, why not? Let's do this. And makes it so satisfying to see more than just one thing happening over and over again.

[JAMIE] In The Last Airbender, like even our leader has an aspect to his morality that you don't see, a lot of the times in, in your protagonist.

[KARLI] A lot of times heroes are very one dimensional. The protagonist, the leader is very like, I don't know, I'm like, I'm like, [laughs] making hand gestures. And I can't think of the word. [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] What you see is what you get.

[KARLI] Yes, thank you.

[JAMIE] So I know that I pretty much I feel like this, this whole season has just been me talking about how great The Last Airbender is.

[KARLI] That's fine.

[JAMIE] And I was right, everything I said, [both laugh] about how great it is. It's just so good. Yeah. And so that is the breakdown of what the five man band is, and many different styles of use.

[KARLI] And the two cent recommendation for the week.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's, I mean, I, it's my recommendation every day of the week.

[KARLI] Every day.

[JAMIE] Every single day.

[KARLI] Every day, all day. And I feel like we could probably go on for another half an hour talking about all of the nuances within the different archetypes and the different scenarios that you can put them in and all of that but I already feel like there's really great information out there on that. So maybe this is, this is just a jumping off point for people to you know, go do a little bit more research about the five man band and see what you can do with it.

[JAMIE] It is fun to think about different books that you enjoy. Especially it's really easy in epic fantasy to be like, oh, in The Stormlight Archives, it would be this one and this one and this one and that would be that one and hmmm, I wonder what I am. We're both lancers to each other's protagonist.

[KARLI] I like it. I like it.

[JAMIE] Perfect. Now if only a smart guy [laughing] would come along.

[KARLI] We need a smart guy. Probably a heart too. [Jamie groans] Mine's shriveled. [laughing] Cut it off.

[JAMIE] Oh, yoi, yoi. We did it again guys. Thanks for being here for another just like random chat about story stuff.

[KARLI] You can find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast, Twitter, @theactbreak_. You can find all of our links in the episode description. Sign up for our newsletter at scifiohmy.com/podcast Thanks for listening.

[JAMIE] Talk to you later, internet friends.