Sidekicks & Companions - Transcript

[KARLI] In an endeavor to banish the cicada noise from the audio, I have purchased a new cable for my microphone.

[JAMIE] How's that going?

[KARLI] I think it's going pretty well. So well, in fact, that that might be the title for my next book, A Banishment of Cicadas.

[JAMIE] [chuckling] A Banishment of Cicadas. I feel like that would be a horrible for the ecosystem. [Karli chuckles] If you thought this out. No. So you do have the cord now?

[KARLI] I do. I do.

[JAMIE] And so far?

[KARLI] It's so far, so far.

[JAMIE] We'll see. I'll be the judge of that.

[KARLI] I was gonna say it's all gonna come down to when Jamie's editing.

[JAMIE] But it would be nice if that was the problem. If it was that simple.

[KARLI] [sighs] I’m hoping. So the more that I was playing with the old cable, if I would, like bend it a certain way, this noise bit died down. And I'm like, if it's not the cord... It's the cord.

[JAMIE] Look at us, troubleshooting geniuses, man. [Karli chuckles]

[KARLI] I'm impressed that I actually was able to figure out a technology thing without you having to hold my hand.

[JAMIE] No, I mean, I did say it was the cord, but you figured out your own cord. [laughs] Potentially the connection.

[KARLI] That. Mhmm, for sure.

[JAMIE] [laughs] I mean, you did it Karli.

[KARLI] Yeah. Thanks.

[JAMIE] Sorry.

[KARLI] [laughing] God.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE]  Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] Welcome back to The Act Break podcast, folks. I am Karli, lover of literary devices.

[JAMIE] And I am Jamie, a science fiction and speculative fiction writer. We said like we're so interesting.

[BOTH] [singing] Ahhhh!

[JAMIE] Yikes.

[KARLI] All right. Today we are talking about companions; from sidekicks to mentors.

[JAMIE] And everything in between. We're actually not going to talk about everything in between.

[KARLI] Like some things in between. A few.

[JAMIE] A variety, a smattering.

[KARLI] A couple, a smidge. A selection. A plethora. No, there probably won't be a plethora.

[JAMIE] Because every main character needs a little support, a little somebody to bounce ideas off of, a friend, a lackey, [both laugh] someone to do their bidding.

[KARLI] I like how friend and lackey were just like, right...

[JAMIE] Yeah, there's just right next to each other. That's how my brain works.

[KARLI] They're adjacent. It only takes just the slightest thing for the friend to become a lackey.

[JAMIE] It really does.

[KARLI] I should know I have been… [laughs]

[JAMIE] She's often lackey status.

[KARLI] I have been demoted to lackey on occasion. Take care, take care of this for me. [Karli laughs] Read this paragraph, I don't want to. [Jamie laughs] But also, I—I'm the definitions, girl. So you know, we all have our roles to play.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] True, I definitely don't look anything up anymore. I'm like Jamie, give us a definition.

[JAMIE] They call me Merriam Webster. Some of the best known sidekicks that came to my mind... My very first thought was of Dick Grayson, who's Robin, pretty much the epitome of sidekick is Batman and Robin. In the fantasy side, we've got Samwise Gamgee. The ultimate. To everybody. It's like if you have to have a sidekick. You want it to be Sam.

[KARLI] You want it to be Sam. He will have food, and he will carry you when you get tired. [both chuckle]

[JAMIE] Exactly, even though it'd be way easier just to like slap you silly and take the ring and do your own self.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] And just do it your damn self. He's too nice for that.

[JAMIE] Oh, Samwise.

[KARLI] See, sidekicks have to be nicer than the hero, otherwise this does doesn't work.

[JAMIE] I think that that's very true.

[KARLI] Of course it is. I said it.

[JAMIE] [laughing] What was I thinking?

[KARLI] Before we get into more examples, let's shift gears into like story context, like the importance level in the story and their relationship to the plot and by extension, the protagonist and antagonist even.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I think that supporting characters are one of the most important elements there is because they make your main character more interesting.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So they are interacting with someone instead of just constantly narrating their own story. They have somebody to banter they have somebody to interact with. Reading a conversation is more engaging often than just a wall of brick text. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Monologue.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] For sure. I agree. They are so crucial to an engaging story. And I often find myself more interested in the side characters because I think that they're easier to write well, because I think a lot of writers get into their head that a protagonist or a hero has to be a certain kind of way. And so the sidekick often serves as like a softening of that image or like a—it brings things in a better contrast. They're the foil, and they do that quite well.

[JAMIE] You can do a sidekick or a companion in a lot of different ways. But a lot of the times it's like a friend, and having your main character have a friend brings them a certain amount, or an illusion of likability. [Karli chuckles] Because if they have a friend, they must have some sort of redeeming qualities.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So especially if you have maybe a more unlikable protagonist, it's kind of important to give them somebody to play off of to make them a little bit more likeable.

[KARLI] A contrasting character. Yeah, side characters often bring interesting ways to progress the plot, that the protagonist wouldn't necessarily do themselves, especially early in the story.

[JAMIE] Yeah, they're sometimes the reason. They drag you to this event or that event.

[KARLI] Yeah, exactly.

[JAMIE] You want to do a thing, before getting into like the archetypes of different ones, just like an overall like, the secondary characters, oftentimes carry the theme of your story, and are like the backbone, or the grounding element to your plot, or your main character. They help kind of send the message home. They can be the person that in the darkest hour of your protagonist, they either provide the support or say the thing that makes everything come together or sparks the idea that makes your protagonist make everything come together.

[KARLI] That's great that you brought that up. They do. I hadn't thought of it that way. But they absolutely do.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I was just looking at Blake Snyder's beat sheet. And in that the beat—the B story—talks about that. Often the B story, it seems secondary, but it's carrying the theme of what the whole story is actually about, just in a different light.

[KARLI] Yeah. And it's either mirroring the main plot or...

[JAMIE] Contrasting it.

[KARLI] Or contrasting it in order to bring light to the theme, or the thing that the main character has to learn in order for the story to come to its crescendo and give us the satisfaction that we want.

[JAMIE] As per example, Samwise Gamgee, standing on the side of Mount Doom, making his big speech about things in this world worth fighting for.

[KARLI] Strawberries.

[JAMIE] Exactly. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Strawberries.

[JAMIE] Oh, Sam.

[KARLI] We love you.

[JAMIE] Although these types of characters are often called sidekicks, or companions, or secondary characters, I don't want them to be undervalued, because they are just as important. Just like most things in your story are all important elements that come together, having rounded out, fully formed, characters in your secondary positions, quote, unquote, help a story so much. When they are like a flat, nothing behind the mask character, they're not going to elevate your story like you want. Even though they're designed to help your main character, they need to be their own person, because it's that everybody is the main character of their own story.

[KARLI] They need to be a fully formed entity.

[JAMIE] Yeah, no side character thinks, I'm a sidekick. And if they do, it's not very realistic. [laughs] But the side characters that have their own arc, that's—

[KARLI] Those are the best.

[JAMIE] Thinking about side characters. I specifically thought of Twilight of Gods, a good book I read once that I can't recommend to anybody because they can't get their hands on it.

[KARLI] [laughing] I’m sorry.

[JAMIE] My mind is totally blanked out on the characters names. Not Einar, it's the other guy.

[KARLI] Arnlaug.

[JAMIE] The brother, right? I specifically thought of Arnlaug from that, because he's got a really good arc of his own. And it's very much like he is the main character of his story of what he's got going on. But he's not like, quote, unquote, the main character, but um…

[KARLI] Well, thank you for saying that. Wow.

[JAMIE] I remember things. I'm just saying. [laughs]

[KARLI] Well, the fact that you actually do remember that character really makes me feel good because you don't always remember. [both chuckle]

[JAMIE] If I don't like a book, I instantly forget it. The other day, I was like, looking at Ursula K. LeGuin books on my Goodreads and I'm like The Left Hand of Darkness and it says I read it. I have zero idea what that book is about.

[KARLI] [laughs] No recollection.

[JAMIE] I only read it like a year and a half ago.

[KARLI] You purge. [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] Deleted it.

[JAMIE] You purge things.

[JAMIE] I didn't—I didn't love it. That's all I remember. But not with your book, missy.

[KARLI] Thank you. Anyways, moving right along. Let's, let's start diving into the types of characters, of side characters. Companions can be found in all fiction, not just science fiction and fantasy, but some are pretty specific to the genre. Like you don't find mentors in contemporary romance. Not that I'm aware of at least.

[JAMIE] There are genres that lend themselves to these.

[KARLI] Yes. Absolutely.

[JAMIE] In a romantic comedy, it would be the best friend.

[KARLI] Absolutely. Yeah.

[JAMIE] Yeah. It's just like different, different types lend themselves to different genres.

[KARLI] Yes. And there can be crossover in all of them. We're doing our best to give you a smattering of examples from different things. But we will probably end up mentioning more science fiction and fantasy because, surprise, surprise, that's what we like best. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Who knew?

[KARLI] All right, so I mean, since you brought up the best friend. The best friend is one of the main examples of the companions.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and I just want to say that when I was thinking about the best friend trope, I don't know if you want to call it a trope. I thought of Keeper by Kim Chance.

[KARLI] I did too! She's one of the best best friends I've ever read.

[JAMIE] I love her side character.

[KARLI] Maggie.

[JAMIE] She was incredibly relatable and she really popped off the page for being like a supporting character.

[KARLI] Yeah. Oh, she was great. She was done so well and like I don't want to give spoilers.

[JAMIE] She has her own arc.

[KARLI] So the Keeper duology by Kim Chance is what we're referring to. Maggie is chef's kiss best friend. And then yeah, we've mentioned Samwise is like a sidekick slash best friend. He kind of is like, right in the middle there.

[JAMIE] Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[KARLI] Oh oh oh, what what what.

[JAMIE] Let's get into this for just a second.

[KARLI] Ooo, okay.

[JAMIE] It's also an interpretation. In the movie, he comes off as a best friend. In the books. He's very much a—he’s almost like a caretaker. Because in the book, Frodo was much older than Sam. And Sam, like, takes care of his garden and his house and his chores.

[KARLI] Yeah, I was gonna say it's all—it’s borderline lackey. Frodo doesn't treat him poorly. But as the series progresses, their bond deepens. And it becomes a more meaningful relationship than just Sam works for Frodo. But yes, you are so right in—book to movie completely different.

[JAMIE] And it plays better in the film.

[KARLI] On the screen, it made so much more sense for them to do it that way.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] And we're not sad about it. Another best friend example that I really love is Anne to Lesley Knope, in Parks and Rec.

[JAMIE] Oh, yeah.

[KARLI] I love their friendship dynamic. And the way that that helps evolve Leslie's character. But Anne has her own stuff going on. And it's, it's great.

[JAMIE] That's a good example.

[KARLI] Do you got any besties? I mean, me, obviously, I am an excellent—

[JAMIE] Lackey. [Jamie laughs]

[KARLI] Just cut it, cut it. We're done.

[JAMIE] Turn it off. The podcast is canceled everyone. [both laugh] No, I didn't write down specifics for best friends. One that borders the line between like a friend and whatever else nebulous you want to call this because as soon as you say the word companion, I think Doctor Who. And the people that travel are basically friends. Most of the time. They have no other reason to be traveling with him, other than the fact that they were invited along and they enjoy each other's company.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] So I guess that does count as like a friend but I wouldn't call it best friends. It is more. I think companion is the right word.

[KARLI] It's the perfect word.

[JAMIE] So I almost want to categorize Doctor Who companions as friends. But it's, it's that weird, squishy line in between, in between friends, and what, I don't know. [laughs]

[KARLI] Well, something I was going to bring up was I prefer when companions serve more than one purpose. I think that they are most enjoyable that way. They don't fit into one archetype. And I think that that's the reason that it's that squishy place for the Doctor Who companions because different ones have different roles within that story arc.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] And that's why they are so enjoyable to watch because it's not going to be the same thing on a loop when there's a new companion.

[JAMIE] Exactly.

[KARLI] In my—at least in my experience, I haven't watched all of the episodes, but...

[JAMIE] I went down a real rabbit hole of Doctor Who companions. And I haven't watched all of it, but I had been really dedicated to it for a certain amount of time. [coughs] David Tennant. [coughs]

[KARLI] [chuckles] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And you're right. It's like it really just depends on the character. My favorite companion, which would be Donna Noble was, was that. She served multiple purposes. She was a companion, a buddy, but she was also very much a foil. A very different opposing forces to push him and force him to grow, which was what her character was designed to do. Spoiler alert, because he's kind of in a bad place. And then through traveling with Donna, he, he kind of like gets over a grieving process.

[KARLI] Yeah. Cancel the rest of what this episode was about. [chuckles] This is now about Doctor Who and his companions. [laughing]

[JAMIE] I know, I'm just saying because especially you mentioned like having multiple roles. Because Martha is a companion, she ends up being incredibly important to the story arc she's involved in, and it couldn't happen without her. And same with Rose at the end of her story arc. That's where it comes back around. The companion often is carrying the theme of the entire story or story arc.

[KARLI] Yeah, those are some fantastic examples of that very point. We've been talking a lot about sidekicks, so I feel like maybe we could give some less well known examples, maybe? Because obviously, everybody thinks of superhero sidekicks. When you say sidekicks. I have a few examples that popped to mind. Which I mean, obviously, some of these are pretty popular as well. So you know, there goes my let's give less common examples. [laughs] Listen, I say what I want when I say it, and then I changed my mind right after I say it. A lot. Jamie has to put up with that constantly. So you guys might as well join in on that. [laughing] It’s also the verbal processing thing. Sometimes I don't know what I think until I say it and then it comes out and like, nuh uh, that's wrong. [Jamie laughs] I don't think that, false. False. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Throw it in reverse.

[KARLI] Take it back. Anyways, examples, Donkey to Shrek. Sidekick, for sure. Definitely not friends. [laughs] At first. At first Donkey just gets on Shrek's nerves. Watson to Sherlock. Chewbacca to Han Solo, solid sidekicks.

[JAMIE] So you don't think Chewie and Han are best friends?

[KARLI] I think that they're—I think that there's a, there's a mixture in there. And I think that in some instances, Chewy comes off more like a sidekick and in other instances comes off more like a best friend.

[JAMIE] Do you think that's because of speciesism? Like, it's so…

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Well, it's not like he can really like get people to listen to him in his own right, because no one understands him but Han.

[JAMIE] That's because they don't speak Wookie. Which is speciesism.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Speciesism. [chuckles] Listen, save this argument for the Star Wars episode. Moving right along. One of my favorite examples of a really compelling sidekick is Caul Shivers in Best Served Cold by Joe Abercrombie. He has his own full arc in that story and brings the whole main story arc home at the very end. And without him, the book would not have packed the punch that it did. But the point of the plot is not his—it's not his goal. But he still drives it. He still drives the story as much as the protagonist does. I love when reading a series, if there's a side character that grows and evolves to become a main character in their own right later on.

[JAMIE] Yeah, you get that... I feel more often in epic fantasy.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Because they have the time to develop that to move that arc forward. Like if you have just a standalone 300 page novel, like there's not that opportunity. Yeah, that's something that one is one of those things that lends itself to a certain genre.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] I can't like over emphasize enough how important it is that they have like their own arcs.

[KARLI] So important. Oh, like, like The Hound in Game of Thrones. What about mentors?

[JAMIE] Mentors.

[KARLI] The classic mentor trope.

[JAMIE] Soo many mentors.

[KARLI] So many.

[JAMIE] I think with the whole mentors thing, what I'm thinking of mostly is that the mentee is the sidekick, not the mentor.

[KARLI] Which is interesting, though, because it depends on the story.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it does depend on the story. But when I was originally thinking of the mentor trope in regards to sidekicks and companions, I was thinking like the Batman and Robin of it all.

[KARLI] Right, right. Okay, that makes sense. So in that sense, obviously Batman is the lead role and in that and he is the mentor. I was definitely thinking of mentor as like the trope, the side character that helps the protagonist and their team along their merry way. More of the Gandalf and the Moraine in Wheel of Time. And even Tom in Wheel of Time, and like they, they're not the main—they're even sometimes considered tertiary characters in like the big epic fantasy, but yeah, I didn't even think about them in the main character role. So interesting.

[JAMIE] Since we were talking about sidekicks, that's all I was thinking.

[KARLI] Do you consider the comic relief a role in its own right? Or is that usually paired with another kind of companion?

[JAMIE] Um, I feel like that could be that's less of a role and more of an attribute.

[KARLI] Yeah, that's true.

[JAMIE] Because a companion can be a comedic foil or a comic relief, but it's not always. And the comedic relief can also come from a tertiary character that can be slotted in anywhere, depending on the personality of the character.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[JAMIE] Often it is used as comic relief, like the best friend part because it lends itself to that.

[KARLI] Everybody knows the quirky best friend trope and all of that. I was thinking of Jeskier in The Witcher for that.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Ron Weasley.

[KARLI] Yes, yes. They're, like either the best friend or the sidekick, but they're also the comic relief.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Snarky comments provider.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] That's me. [chukles]

[KARLI] Yes, yes. Another type of side character in your story that can drive your plot forward would be the love interest, or even platonic life mate slash buddy cop situation. They could also be considered like, depending on the situation, the buddy cop, I guess is more of like the friend role, I guess.

[JAMIE] That falls I—closer, closer to like a companion, like partners.

[KARLI] Partners, yes.

[JAMIE] Where we're put together, we want to have a good working relationship, but we didn't necessarily choose each other.

[KARLI] Right? One of the example I saw listed for this, which I mean, I don't know about the like, I don't remember. It's been so long since I've seen it. So maybe you can I might be wrong, but like Zoe to Mal in Firefly, they're more the working together, partnership.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I think by the time we see Zoe and Mal's relationship, they're friends. They were comrades in arms. So they forged their, their bond through trials.

[JAMIE] And so then they become like, connected almost to like a family status.

[KARLI] Right.

[KARLI] Yeah, which is why I like the platonic life mate, I think fits that a little bit better. But then love-interest-wise? Well, the love it depends on I think the story. Not all love interests wind up as companions. But in certain situations, they are working together. And they fall in love either—they usually fall in love along the way. Like Annabeth and Percy in Percy Jackson, like Katniss and Peeta in The Hunger Games, that sort of thing.

[JAMIE] So then he's like a sidekick, you think?

[KARLI] Kind of. Because I mean, I mean, I don't know about a sidekick, but he's working alongside her. He's a supporting role. He's also a foil for her because he is so different from her and it highlights their differences. He brings the, the themes through. I actually think Peta is a really good example of that the love interest actually being able to—because they're alongside one another in the journey.

[JAMIE] That makes sense. That is a good example.

[KARLI] Okay, so I have a side character that I'd like to ask you what role you think that they fill.

[JAMIE] Ooh, oh, I didn't know there would be a test!

[KARLI] I know. Right? It's genie in Aladdin.

[JAMIE] That's difficult. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Right? It's a tricky one because I was thinking about just some of my favorite side characters in stories and then trying to think of like where they would slot in for examples and then Genie popped in my mind.

[JAMIE] Well, my first thought is hired help which is the category, I think, but Genie is a slave.

[KARLI] Yeah, like obviously. Yeah.

[JAMIE] He's in bondage, literally.

[KARLI] He's in bondage, literally. Yes.

[JAMIE] So that's probablamatic. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yes, it is one hundred percent problematic.

[JAMIE] Because it's not like he's like super doing anything that he does for a lot and out of the goodness of his heart, not that he's not a good person or good character, but like he is under duress, basically. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. Well, and he's also like coaching and guiding Aladdin little bit. So he also kind of fills a little bit of a mentor role to him.

[JAMIE] But he wants—you want to keep that guy happy. So that hopefully he gives you that last wish.

[KARLI] Right? Well, and then in the full arc of the story, at the very end, Aladdin's change was because of Genie. Him becoming less selfish, like, he didn't become less selfish because of his love interest, or because of Abu. It was because of Genie. It's, it's an interesting conundrum that I came across. And that is, when I do feel like, it's interesting to see characters that fill many roles in a story, because then you can't just nail them down to one spot and say, This is the trope that they fit in. I just think it's interesting.

[JAMIE] Character studies, things that make you go hmm. [both chuckle]

[KARLI] In wrapping this literary device package up in a nice little bow, whatever companion you decide to place into your story, make sure that you are remembering that they are a whole being in their own right, and that they carry the distinctive weight of the story as much as your protagonist does. And, and you will go far.

[JAMIE] And you... [both laugh] Nice that's it's very encouraging.

[KARLI] Thank you. Jamie, do you have a recommendation for us this week?

[JAMIE] Uh, yeah. I know, we never specified that our recommendations had to be on theme. But I do feel deeply compelled to always make them on theme. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Same.

[JAMIE] But that was not easy this week, because I'm really, really picky. And so I was like, All right, I'm just gonna pick my favorite sidekick slash companion slash whatever. Martin Freeman's portrayal of John Watson in the BBC Sherlock. He is the perfect foil. He forces the protagonist to grow. He is just so good.

[KARLI] He's funny.

[JAMIE] Their chemistry is undeniable.

[KARLI] Martin Freeman is fantastic. But they work so well together.

[JAMIE] I know. It's like a whole show. You don't have to watch the whole thing. He shines in, even if you just watch like the first one episode.

[KARLI] Don't tell them to not watch the whole show.

[JAMIE] You live your life, you guys.

[KARLI] Watch the whole show.

[JAMIE] Do whatever you want. Don't watch the show. Watch the show. It's a show, a show. I just think he's a great, a great sidekick.

[KARLI] Quite well done. You can find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast, Twitter @theactbreak_, you can go to our website scifiohmy.com/podcast. There you can sign up for our newsletter and find transcripts for this episode. Please follow and subscribe so that you get notifications when our new episodes come out. We have a new one every Thursday.

[JAMIE] Talk to you later, guys.

Work Life - Transcript

[JAMIE] I was thinking about it. And I'm interested in your take on this, because I think that you'll agree. We're super chill. When it comes to other people and like what I expect you know, any of that—I am, I'm super chill. On the inside when it concerns like anything I'm in charge of, there is no chill. [chuckles]

[KARLI] You have no chill.

[JAMIE] And I think that you're the same where you're like, "Well, you know, I don't have any like, expectations or pressures on other people." But like when it comes time for yours, [chuckles] there’s no chill.

[KARLI] Yeah, my personal portion of the thing, there is no chill inside of me. [Jamie chuckles] I don't, like I don't have any expectation for anybody else to be anything other than themselves. But I have a weird set of standards for myself that I can't even define or explain, if I tried.

[JAMIE] I would generally tell people like yeah, we're really super chill people. And then I'm like, but we're not internally. [both laugh] Inside we're screaming. [Karli laughs]

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break everybody, where you can listen to us struggle to make sense of our own thoughts on whatever topic we have picked for the week. [Karli laughs] The most accurate depiction of this podcast ever.

[KARLI] [laughing] Yes.

[JAMIE] I'm Jamie. I am a science fiction and speculative fiction writer who makes a podcast.

[KARLI] I'm Karli, writer and … cohost. [laughs] I know, that was really compelling. You're welcome.

[JAMIE] I am starting to wonder how long I can say I'm a writer to people before they start demanding actual proof. [Karli laughs] Luckily, most people have taken my word for it. Today we get to talk to one of our busiest friends and that is Kate, a.k.a. Lilly Hammer on Instagram, about the infamous but elusive subject: work life balance. [Kate laughs] Which, depending on the day can make you cringe. Hi, Kate.

[KATE] Hi.

[KARLI] Welcome.

[KATE] Thank you for having me and labeling me one of your busiest friends. [Karli laughs] I feel like I'm gonna have to wear that as a badge of honor now.

[JAMIE] Yeah. I'm just here to hand out labels. You’re welcome.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Slap a label on it.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Listeners might remember Kate from an episode last season where we played writer would you rather, which was a really good time. [Kate chuckles] And I think people enjoyed Yeah. So thanks for coming back.

[KARLI] This is the first episode with just Kate. So we're getting to have a little bit more chat time with you about you and your experiences rather than just the randomness—

[KATE] Spiders. [laughs]

[KARLI] Of that game—spiders.

[JAMIE] You remember the spiders in the cabin?

[KATE] I can't forget that.

[JAMIE] The biggest thing that stood out.

[KARLI] Kate and I have nightmares about that now.

[KATE] Yeah. [Kate and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE] Meanwhile, the alternative was just sitting in a cafe next to your worst enemy.

[KATE] Well, that was my worst nightmare. [Kate and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE] Would you like to do a quick introduction tell people about yourself.

[KATE] So I have a—my day job. I work in social media for Satellite Radio. I also write and I am a drummer in a band, blues rock band. And yeah, those are my three points of what I guess you would consider work that I have to balance. Writing, a grimdark fantasy novel that I am still in the third draft of called The One Horned Heretic.

[KARLI] [singsong] And it's so good. [Kate chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yeah, some of us been privileged enough to read it. [Kate and Karli laugh] Not all of us but here we are. The sound of me not being bitter. [Kate and Karli laugh]

[KATE] I get you in the next round.

[KARLI] Jamie’s not salty.

[JAMIE] Not salty at all. You have a full time job that you have to travel for often. And you know, responsibilities and the like, as most writers do. Pretty much, most of us don't write as a profession, or as our primary income.

[KATE] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Even when that is your full time job. You still have like a personal life, and hobbies. And it all is things that you have to manage. So that's what we're talking about today. Because why not? It's funny that it fell this week, because I feel like all of us have had like a really busy couple of weeks that have left us super drained, or, like out of the flow of what our usual balance is, quote unquote. [chuckles] So I'm like, oh, good. Yeah. Let's talk about this while we're all completely messed up. [laughs]

[KATE] Oh, yeah. It was very funny. Because even before I was, I was talking to A.P. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm gonna—about to record a podcast with them about work life balance, and I am having my most unbalanced week I have ever had in my life. And I'm like, this is so fitting. And also, I should be ashamed of myself that this is the topic you chose for me on this week.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] No, I think it's perfect, because that's one of the biggest things that we're talking about why it's such a difficult and elusive thing, because we can find something that works for us. And then a week, two weeks, a month comes out of nowhere, and then suddenly everything is off.

[KATE] Yeah, totally. And I was thinking about it recently, because like, I took on more responsibility in my job this past year. So I have to do things like be aware of when the quarter changes. So like the quarter changed in April. And so now, I like—not only do I have to manage my days, my weeks, but now I manage my quarters. And I'm like, there's just always something more to add to it and more to manage.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and it's ever changing.

[KATE] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So what we mean when we talk about work life balance is basically just the amount of time and energy you put into your writing passions, and the amount of time and energy you have to put into your everything else.

[KARLI] [laughing] Your everything else, I like that.

[JAMIE] You know, you still have to like, earn a paycheck and like feed your family, metaphorically and physically, when you have children. I’ve noticed a lot of people not asking me but asking other people, like, how do you do it? And everybody's answers always like, I don't, or like I just struggle my way through it. When you hear like work life balance, what does that immediately make you guys even think about? What does that even mean? [chuckles]

[KARLI] It makes me think about anxiety.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Does it make you think about anxiety? Or does it make you anxious? Because those are two different things. [chuckles]

[KARLI] [laughing] Both. Oh boy.

[JAMIE] How do you say, it's just like, it feels like such a broad question when people bring it up. Like what does work life balance even mean?

[KATE] Yeah, to me, it's all about boundaries. I think over the past year, I got very good at setting my boundaries around each smaller thing within. So it's not just like work. And it's not just life. It's my my day work, my writing work my personal life and like anything else has to do with life. And then I set very staunch boundaries between them. So like when I am writing, I am not working or thinking about work. And when I'm working, I'm not thinking about writing even though it is always like in my brain, I try not to. So like that is I think the first step when I think of like work life balance, setting boundaries, and then working from there.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I totally agree.

[KARLI] Um, I think that boundaries are crucial to having any kind of balance in life without going completely insane. I definitely struggle with that separation of like, I am doing this right now and so I'm not thinking about all of the other things. But whenever I do try to do that, it's very helpful. [laughs]

[JAMIE] It's hard to get in the habit of something that doesn't come naturally.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It's like it takes very conscious effort to build up like a practice.

[KARLI] Yeah. So Kate, it just sounds like you're pretty good at compartmentalizing.

[KATE] Yeah. And it took me a while, like, as I was thinking about, like, all the boundaries I set and I, I have set so many on sets, like a minuscule level, like the amount of hours my phone has access to social media and like when my email notifications pop up, and they don't do it after five, and I can't imagine a time when that didn't exist. It took me a while to get to this point. But now I can't function without like, I can't imagine doing all the things I do now without having those boundaries. And like you said, Jamie, like making those habits. It was crucial.

[JAMIE] I agree, where it's like, it doesn't all happen overnight.

[KATE] No.

[JAMIE] It's like a thing that you build up over time. That makes me think of like my bullet journaling. That's how I track things. That's how I keep like appointments. That's how I remember what bills to pay when. It didn't just like magically happen. But now I feel like I don't know what I would do without it.

[KATE] Mhm.

[JAMIE] How did I even function? How did I remember anything before I did it this way. It takes time. But eventually they start paying off and then the gain is an exponential gain.

[KATE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah, I agree with that. I am very new to the boundaries thing in all facets of life. But I have noticed in the last couple of years, how much more functional I am on a day to day basis, because of those boundaries, it feels like an exponential growth, like I still feel like a hot mess, and I'm not as organized as I want to be. But I am far more organized than I ever was even six months, a year ago. It is, it's a growth.

[JAMIE] It's going to be different for everybody. There's nothing I love more than disclaimers that seem obvious. [Kate and Karli laugh] Everybody’s going to have a different amount of time and energy that they can put in to different aspects of their life. And that's why it's hard to watch. Other writers take larger strides. Like I want to be able to get that much done that fast. It just is going to be different for everybody because of whatever you have going on.

[KARLI] Yes, it is challenging to see other people seemingly making more progress than you. But you really unless you know them very personally, you really have no way of knowing what they have going on behind the scenes. Comparison is bad, don't do it.

[KATE] Do you know I became really humbled in that thought process with Flights of Foundry, which we all sat in on. Just like seeing these authors who are published, published books, book series, short stories, and magazines, none of which I have done yet. And they are still working a day job. And they're talking about how they like work the night shift as a nurse or they did this during the day. And I'm like, oh, my—like, it humbled my ass so hard.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] We're so steeped in like "the writing community." But almost no authors really have that as like, their only source of income. It's very rare that even a traditionally published author is going to like out earn their advance and have no other revenue streams.

[KARLI] Yeah, they tend to diversify what they've got going on. They sell courses or, you know, other things to help supplement.

[JAMIE] Or even just day jobs.

[KARLI] Or even, yeah, or even just a day job. Absolutely.

[JAMIE] Yeah. I mean, I wish all the writers could just write. [Jamie and Karli chuckle] So just in general, like the tasks and the time, they're, they're going to be distributed differently at different times. You're gonna go through seasons, where you're going to be able to focus on your work more than other times.

[KARLI] Depending on what you have going on in your personal life or at your day job is largely going to affect how much—even if you have the time, you may not have the energy. And that's when we have to figure out when it's healthy to push ourselves. And when it's healthy to take a break.

[JAMIE] Have either of you experienced this? This was something that it took me a while to learn because I'm a planner. But I've figured out sometimes planning too far in advance can be like a problem. It can kind of set you up for failure. Because you don't really know what type of season or what's going to be going on in your life or in the world. Then you're like, "Oh, I failed, because I didn't do this." Have you guys ever encountered that?

[KATE] Oh my god.

[KARLI] Yeah. [Karli laughs]

[KATE] Acutely with me, I—oh my god—I’m like so frazzled right now. Because this is such a big like, important thing to me. I do not plan. And I mean this so fervently like I don't plan ahead of a week in my life work in my writing, because I have had so many things happen to me that have blindsided me and thrown me in a loop for like, months after that. I'm like, scarred for life about planning ahead of time. [All laugh] I get deeply disappointed when like, my plans don't work out. Like if I say, and this is [chuckles]—this is me looking back on sweet summer child, Kate, when she thought she was gonna have an agent by last December and I'm still writing my 110k book. So like, it's things like that, where I'm like, "I'm gonna finish my book by x," and you don't get there and it's so disappointing. But if you say, "at the end of this week, I'm going to get this done." And then if you get it, it's fantastic. If you didn't, you only have a week to reflect on what went wrong. Instead of like a year's worth of how did I get here? [Kate and Karli laugh]

[KARLI] That is so relatable. I am very similar. If I plan too far ahead, I get anxiety. Because of that very reason. I've had, like crazy stuff happen where yeah, I am like, completely out of it for a month, and then it takes me another couple of months to recover. Then I'm like, there's three months, “what just happened, all of my goals are gone, I will never become a writer.” And it's soul crushing. I like what you were saying about the week to week goals. They're like the micro goals, but if you achieve the micro goals, even if you know, sometimes you don't quite make the goal. But if you're consistently pushing yourself forward, and you're going to achieve the bigger goal, it just maybe pushed out further than you originally thought.

[JAMIE] When you have a goal for six months, or a year or whatever. Sometimes that can be so ambiguous that you don't actually do the steps that it takes because you're like, well, that's a year, I have a whole year to accomplish that. And then you might procrastinate or not do the everyday things. Whereas if you just have a week, it's a much more actionable step that you have to take to reach the week goal. And instead of being like, well, I have three months to do that. I really like that, Kate, because it's much more realistic. But I usually pick like, for the month, my goal is to do this. And then if I reach that early, then I'll do like a push goal. [chuckles]

[KATE] That's a good plan, too. And I—this may be wrong—but I think it was V.E. Schwab that said this in like one of her Instagram stories, and specifically for writers, when you set a daily word count goal. If that's like how you set your goals, it's more depleting. Like when you don't make that goal because it was a small daily goal. But then if you make it for the week, you have wiggle room. So if you don't do it one day, you can make up for the next day, same thing with a month, like you do Jamie, like you could start to gauge where you relax a little bit. Or if you had like a really good day it makes up for that day, you know?

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah, definitely.

[JAMIE] Like a month has been the sweet spot. And then there are days where you just know you're not gonna get anything done. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah, especially with having kids, they're sometimes sick. Or sometimes there's just a school break or a holiday and I have extra on my plate for that time period. I used to get so overwhelmed and frustrated that I wasn't able to have a consistent schedule, I've had to really embrace the fact that I have no guarantees, anything can happen. But yeah, having the month, you know, like spring break happened in April. And so that whole week, they were out. And I knew I wasn't gonna get as much done. And I was able to be more relaxed about that, knowing that the second half of the month was going to be a little heavier and work but that's okay.

[KATE] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It's often better to like, stay loose, about like, what your goals are gonna be. You just never know what's going to come at you. And there's so many outside factors that affect like your energy level and all that. [chuckles]

[KATE AND KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Mostly I was thinking about tips for helping with that sort of thing. That was my, my first listing was just flexibility. Being able to shift and be like, oh, I was going to try and write a short story today. But I feel a deep sense of existential dread. So instead, I'm gonna sit on the couch and read. [Kate and Jamie chuckle] And it's reading, so it still counts towards work goals.

[KATE] I agree.

[KARLI] I've definitely gotten to a point where I set alarms throughout my day, that helps kind of cue me into like, okay, this time of day, I need to make sure that this thing is happening, and it kind of helps keep me moving forward.

[KATE] I do the same thing. I'm so glad to hear that someone else does that, like my phone—I don't get dings for Instagram or Twitter. But I get dings that say like, check your email, get up and stretch.

[KATE] Yes.

[KATE] This is a writing time. This is a working time.

[KARLI] Yeah, I don't have alerts for any social media. I get distracted way too easily. And then hours are gone.

[JAMIE] I turned off push notification years ago, on like, pretty much any app that I get. And I'm like, you don't have to say yes to that. [laughs]

[KATE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Say no.

[JAMIE] And then when people mention it sometimes now I forget that other people have them. [laughs]

[KARLI] Okay, I liked what you said, I didn't even realize that you could set your email to where you don't get like notified for your emails at a certain time of day. And I'm totally going to do that now.

[KATE] That was the best thing I ever did for myself. Because like, I don't use my personal email much so I only ever check it in the morning and then it's off for the rest of the day. But then my, my work email, I only check it three times a day. And I don't get push notifications for it and I just have a reminder that goes off to check your email at this time. Because I have a job where like, I'll get 300 emails in a day. [laughs]

[KARLI] No, thank you.

[JAMIE] Yeah, know everything about your day job, it just sounds like my personal nightmare. [Karli laughs]

[KATE] I am very fortunate with my job. But it's since it's an entertainment company, it's just like the communications are endless.

[KARLI] Like drinking from a firehose. [Jamie laughs]

[KATE] Yeah. Yeah.

[KARLI] I mean, it sounds like a lot of fun and a lot of ways, but it sounds very intense and very, like high demand for your attention.

[KATE] Yeah, and especially because I work in the social media department, which is a thing that never shuts off and is endless. That has taught me a lot about the internet this past year, just like not only setting boundaries with my like, coworkers, or my own personal social media, but like the world. Setting my, my own boundaries with the worldwide web.

[JAMIE] Yep, me too.

[KARLI] And I think it is so important to learn how to set a boundary with that, because I think that we are stifling our creative growth and our rest time and our peace of mind because we don't have boundaries with it.

[KATE] And it's also balanced too, like not just boundaries, but the balance of it. Because like, on the same hand, I would never have met you guys. And I would never have met my writer group. And I like the writing group that I joined with you is like the one of the best things that happened to my writing. And then it's also part of the internet that just like rots my brain. And haunts my dreams.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I think that that's just it is like, during the times that you can spend time on social media, you engage with the people that you engage with, and then you—off. Done. Move to the next thing.

[KATE] Yeah.

[JAMIE] If I can tally up the number of times I've had to be like, don't go on a social media rant [Karli laughs] on the podcast. But those apps are designed to keep you there. They're designed to distract you and suck you further and further in. So having just a timer that's like, hey, did you mean to spend two hours here? Sometimes I'll have just like, I call them like days on and days off. Where you like specifically—I dedicate that energy to this aspect of my life. Clean house. That one doesn't come around as much as it probably should. [Karli laughs] But days off, let's talk about that. Because I know that that's something, Kate, that you do. You specifically pick days off, right?

[KATE] Yeah. And I don't do it often enough. Like I've been an athlete my whole life. And I have, I have to remind myself that I have been taught this with everything that has to do with athletics my whole life that if you don't take a day off, your body will pick a day off for you. [Jamie laughs] Yeah, I forget that a lot. And then I end up having to force myself to take a day off. I struggle with scheduling it because one thing that ends up happening is Saturdays are my best writing days. It's like I unwound Friday night, Saturdays, I go all out and write for like seven hours. And the next day, I have that excitement from writing. And I like, I want to do it again. And then I have seven days of work that I've just done. And I'm like, what am I doing? So I've started making Sundays my complete day off and I begrudgingly do that every Sunday. [Jamie and Karli laugh] And I mean it begrudgingly. Like I get very salty about it, "I could be writing." I am resting. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's hard to pick like a day that's ever really like off off. Yeah, I either want to like be writing, or be taking care of personal stuff, or at least work out. But I agree burning yourself out … isn't going to help any aspect of your life.

[KATE] No. One thing I do, which is a luxury to me, because I am able to work from home, is sometimes I'll have nights where it's like, I don't have a name for them. But it's like, just do stuff in bed nights where it's like at five o'clock, I'm done. And I go immediately into bed like at 5:30 at night, and I'm in bed just like on my switch or like reading. But I'm in bed resting until like I go to sleep and like I tend to do that and call it a rest day. It's like it's like a half rest day, you know. But I do that more often than take a day completely off because I section my days off so much and I occupy so much of my time when I have a day where I don't have anything to do I am like lost. Where do I begin doing nothing? [Kate and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE] Do you guys ever feel this way? Because I recently had a day like this where I'm like I'm gonna take the day off laying on the couch reading But then I feel guilty or at the end of the day, I'm always like, I feel like a potato. I accomplished nothing. And for some reason, my brain says you are less valuable now. [cuckles]

[KATE] Oh, I have that all the time.

[KARLI] Intensely relatable. Yes, society tells us that if we're not productive, we're less valuable. It's just a thing.

[JAMIE] It's not true. But like you still feel that way at the end of the day.

[KARLI] I'm better about it more recently—thank you therapy—in having like compassion for myself and allowing myself to have downtime. But my days off, are kind of weird, because I never really have a full day off because I have kids. So it's like, I always have to do stuff.

[JAMIE] Well, it's very much like we were saying that what something is looks different to different people. A rest day for you is not going to look the same.

[KARLI] Yeah, exactly. Figure out what works best for you. And what actually feels restful, or something as simple as yeah, going—putting your ass to bed with your Switch. Like, that sounds magnificent. I have definitely had days where I put my kids to bed, and I immediately go to bed myself.

[KATE] Yeah.

[JAMIE] The other thing I really liked that you both mentioned is just the, what's the term? Compartmentalize. That's the term I'm looking for, where you can just like try and be doing whatever it is you're doing—being present. And giving your full focus to a person or a project is hard sometimes when you're not practiced at it. But it is incredibly valuable. It's so easy to have that focus pulled away. But when you focus fully on it, you get more done.

[KATE] That I learned. I don't remember if either of you read Deep Work?

[BOTH] Yes.

[KATE] You both did. So I read that for writing. But I also read it for my drumming practice, because my drum teacher read it as well. And it has helped. And now I do everything because of that book in 90 minute blocks, because you need time to sink into it, and then stay in it. And that has helped me. I've stopped doing ten minute sprints here and there for writing or doing a random little twenty minute drum practice. Maybe for me, and for other people, it could help. But for me personally, having that sink in time has helped with all of these things.

[JAMIE] I agree with that, Kate. I think it's one of those things where if you're scheduled only allows you to do a ten minute or twenty minute sprint, or—regarding anything—that is better than not doing it at all. Yeah, but I'm the same way where I like the camaraderie that sprints can build, but I'm not getting as valuable work done. I need at least forty minutes. And—but ideally, I would be talking and in contact with nobody for like, three hours.

[LAUGHTER]

[KATE] Yeah.

[JAMIE] But it's like yeah, if that's all you can do, absolutely do it. But if you can manage more or shift things around to potentially focus more, you could try it and see, you know, if it works for you.

[KARLI] I loved Deep Work. I'm so glad you brought it up again, because it's really got me thinking that now that my kids are both in school full time, I should try to start implementing it and seeing how it works for me because the sprints and the timers and the smaller blocks of time are what I tend to do just out of sheer habit. But now like they're both school age, and I have like hours of time where I suddenly got very overwhelmed. This school year was the first time that it's happened, I'm like what do I even do with myself? The idea of sitting down for that long felt like a long stretch goal. I need to look at it more of like starting out maybe with some smaller like sprints to get me going, but then try to settle into a deeper focus state.

[JAMIE] The general, like idea of work life balance is that things take time, it takes time to figure what's going to work for you out. And it's a marathon, not a sprint. It's not like you're going to discover the secret and for the rest of your career or life you will have perfect harmony. [laughs]

[KARLI] It will always work this way. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] It will always be turbulent and you'll they'll always be—

[KATE] Oh my god, always.

[JAMIE] Change. It's just balancing, when to take a break and when to hit the gas. Burning yourself out is not going to help you but also dragging your feet is not going to help you. Basically a whole bunch of conflicting information. [All laugh] You’re welcome listeners.

[KATE] I'm gonna put on my former personal trainer hat for a second. Sleep [banging sound] is [bang] one of the most [bang] important things. [bang] And as reclusive writers.

[KARLI] Are you slamming your hand on the desk while you talk?

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] She really means it.

[KATE] I really mean it. I am a person that has a bedtime and I have a whole sleep routine. And I take sleep very seriously. And it helps. You don't think it does, but it helps.

[KARLI] It does. I am that person that does not function well on little sleep. I got myself a Fitbit. I wear it at night, even though it took a little while to get used to it. Because now I have no excuse. The app tells me I didn't sleep enough. And then I'm like, why do I feel like garbage? Oh, because I only slept for four and a half hours. That's not acceptable.

[JAMIE] From the personal trainer aspect, I'm not one but I almost became one once upon a time, but your muscles need time to recover. And that happens while you sleep. The same thing, your brain needs time to recover. Most people have experienced this where it's late at night and you're trying to either write or edit and things stop making sense. [All laugh] Why can't I make anything makes sense anymore? It's because you need to go to damn bed go to bed.

[KARLI] [laughing] Go to damn bed. [Kate chuckles]

[JAMIE] What makes it worth it? Why even trust? You know, because it wasn't an existential enough. My reasoning is that time is going to pass anyway, you might as well make good use of it—or as best you can.

[KATE] That's good. I like that. Mine is because when you get real good at managing your time, it feels good to see all that you've accomplished in a day or in a week. And then when you get really good at it, you find more time to do and learn more. Like I've read more books, and I've read like eleven books so far this year, I've never read that many books ever like that fast. And like you find time for more hobbies just to do more things because you organize your time in a way where you could see like, oh, I have some extra time here. Or I could do this here.

[KARLI] If you allow it to, time will slip through your fingers. There are certain things that are outside of our control, absolutely. But we all have more control over our time and our days than we realize. There are things that we can put into place to help time serve us rather than us serving it. I used to hate the idea of schedules and all of these things. And I still don't love the idea of it. But I know that when I'm actually following my schedule, I have more time and energy to do the things that I want.

[JAMIE] It just reminds me of working out when I was like I'm too exhausted, how on earth am I going to start working out? And then you start working out and you're like, oh, all of a sudden I have more energy. That applies to organization and scheduling and to writing. It's like the act of doing it increases your capacity to do it.

[KATE] Yep.

[KARLI] Yeah. And it's more exhausting when you first start, when you're onboarding the system. But then once you get used to it, it does. It does offer you more.

[JAMIE] The other thing that I was like why? Why keep going, especially in regards to writing. And I just wrote the inexplicable compulsion to do so. [Karli laughs] That’s pretty universal to writers. We have to have some weird, some weird compulsion inside of us. That just is like, yeah, keep going. This is a good decision. [laughs]

[KATE] Yeah. And like in terms of because I wasn't just thinking about this, the topic of this episode, just in writing, I was thinking about other things. But just in writing is, I have an entire world of people inside me that I've been trying to get out for years. Like that drive to just get it done. Makes all this worth it and makes me need to organize it in a way so that I know it's gonna just get out get out of my head. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yes, absolutely.

[JAMIE] Yeah, you can just like spew them out. And then it's like it opens up that space in your brain because they don't have to only exist there anymore. [chuckles]

[KATE] Yeah.

[KARLI] And then new ones come in, and then you have to write those ones down. [Kate chuckles] So you know the explicable compulsion yes, that.

[JAMIE] So nobody ever gets it right. All of the time.

[KARLI] Nah.

[JAMIE] We all are just doing our best. Kate, did you have a recommendation you wanted to share?

[KATE] Yeah, I actually was gonna recommend Notion, which is a free software. It's very loosey goosey open platform like planner where you can make literally anything that you want to organize. I like it better than Excel because I use Excel in my professional life. So it feels work-y to me, now this is just fun.

[JAMIE] Is it like a digital planner with like templates?

[KATE] Yeah, it's not—it's not even necessarily templates. It's like blank space.

[JAMIE] It kinda sounds like a digital bullet journal.

[KATE] Yeah, it kind of is. I track all of my home renovation projects in it. And I track my writing and my like wellness, my finances. So it's like those people that have a spreadsheet for everything in their life. I have a notion sub-section for everything in my life. It's visually pleasing, and it's easy to use. And so, I use that every single day.

[KARLI] Nice. Wikipedia says it's a project management and note taking software.

[KATE] There you go. Yeah, tech companies usually use it. And then it got popular in the student realm, where they were, were tracking all of their studies and homework and stuff. And then I know a lot of writers that use it and just people who use it for personal stuff.

[KARLI] Gonna check it out. Thanks, Kate.

[KATE] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Kate, thank you for coming on the podcast again.

[KARLI] Yes, thank you.

[KATE] Thank you.

[JAMIE] I'm glad we didn't scare you the first time.

[KATE] [laughs] Never. Thank you for having me. I love talking to you guys.

[JAMIE] You can find Kate on Instagram at @lilyhammerwriting. Is there anywhere else that you like to direct people?

[KATE] There and on Twitter it's lilyhammer0709.

[KARLI] Website?

[KATE] Lilyhammerwriting.com. And I recently made a Ko-fi. Oh no, they pronounce it Ko-fi. Because it's supposed to rhyme with no fee. So I have a Ko-fi. That's lilyhammerwrites also.

[JAMIE] Awesome. Thanks again for listening. You can follow or subscribe to the podcast while you're, you know, listening to it. We keep on saying we need to pare down our call to action. It's a, it's a hot mess.

[KARLI] And then we don't. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast or on Twitter @theactbreak_. Get a transcript and sign up for our newsletter at our website, scifiohmy.com/podcast. Thanks for being here, everyone, and we'll talk to you later.

[KATE] Bye.

[KARLI] Bye, internet friends.

Pacing in Story - Transcript

[JAMIE] How would you feel about me doing a supercut of every time you go ahblablablabla. [both laugh] Because already this season I have cut out so many of those that I'm like, man, I should put all these together into this super cut of Karli going ahblablablabla. [laughs]

[KARLI] That is quality Patreon content. People would pay for that, I know it.

[JAMIE] I feel like we should make it into a ringtone. [Karli gasps] I should make it my ringtone for you. [Karli laughs] And so every time you call me, all I hear is you going ahblablablabla. [laughs]

[KARLI] The only problem with that is then you would be more sick of me than you already are. And I feel I'm right at that limit already, and I don't really want to tempt fate. I like the thing that we got going on here. And I don't really want to just do anything to jinx it. So let's, let's not.

[JAMIE] Is there a special—is there a special setting on my phone that like, when that, when that happens, it will just like automatically send you to my voice mail?

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Karli goes automatically to voicemail. So do I need to make that for a point of reference now?

[JAMIE] No.

[KARLI] Or was you mimicking me enough for people to guess what was going on?

[JAMIE] I—I'm gonna bet that you're going to do it naturally at some point during this episode.

[KARLI] [laughing] Oh no!

[JAMIE] And I'll just leave it in this time.

[KARLI] Probably. Probably. Would not surprise me if I do.

[JAMIE] Quality.

[BOTH] Quality content.

[LAUGHTER]

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Welcome to the podcast, where despite the outcome, we are really trying to give you our best [both laugh] in mostly accurate advice.

[KARLI] [laughing] How’s that going so far? I'm asking our listeners. How are you feeling at this stage, folks?

[JAMIE] How do you feel about what's happened to you, you know? I'm Jamie.

[KARLI] I'm Karli.

[JAMIE] And we both write stuff. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And even more, we talk about stories. And there's a good chance that that's why you're here.

[KARLI] Potentially. And we're just going to launch right into the talking about the stories today.

[JAMIE] Today we're talking about pacing in stories, which is funny because we're always trying to figure out the pacing of this podcast. [laughs]

[KARLI] Listen, nobody ever said we had to be experts in order to teach other people things that we know about things that we're not good at.

[JAMIE] Those who can't do, teach.

[KARLI] [laughing] Exactly.

[JAMIE] So we'll be talking about pacing, which is the cadence at which a story moves forward. Naturally, this is closely related to structure which we will touch on but we're not really going to like linger on because that's a whole—that's its own—

[KARLI] That's a can of worms we can't get into in our thirty minutes-ish or less.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and then we're also going to like briefly touch on information and its use in scenes for pacing. There will probably be spoilers in some of those spoilers might include the book of Boba Fett, The Wheel of Time, Breaking Bad. Is there any other one that we wrote down?

[KARLI] I don't even think we really spoiled those ones. But if you're nitpicky about your spoilers, there are spoilers for those things. But if you're not nitpicky, they're really not spoilers. So yeah, proceed at your own, at your own risk.

[JAMIE] Ye've been warned! [Karli laughs] This is an exciting, exciting episode, because I feel like so far this season, one that will hopefully be more helpful. [chukles]

[KARLI] How dare you. All of our podcast episodes are helpful.

[JAMIE] Yes, they are. Let's talk about what pacing is and why it is important.

[KARLI] Great. I think pacing is—I really liked how you said the cadence. I was thinking it's the speed of the experience. In my interpretation, whether it's a reader or viewer, the speed by which you experience the events in the story that you are consuming.

[JAMIE] It's the thing that keeps the readers from getting bored and moving on. It's the things that move the story forward and set the tone for the story as well as the climax.

[KARLI] Mm. Yeah, for sure.

[JAMIE] Because it's something that does increase towards the end of your book when the most exciting things happen. There will be a natural increase in that.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah. So I mean, obviously like you said, it will naturally increase towards your climax but it doesn't mean that it is going to be at that pace throughout. I mean, that would be breakneck speed. So when we're talking about pacing, we're not talking about fast pacing, necessarily. Pacing, adjusts, it ebbs and flows, depending on what you're trying to do.

[JAMIE] Yes, there is no one, quote unquote, right pace. It can be a fast pace or a slow pace or medium. Or it can, like you said ebb and flow. But I would say that it should be fairly consistent throughout. Because if it's too slow in the beginning, and then fast on the back, half, people might never make it to a certain point. Or if it's breakneck speeds, and then you hit a lull that might be when your reader puts it down. So I feel like there's a balance that each, each book has to strike.

[KARLI] Yeah, definitely. Which I think is what ends up being the challenge with figuring out how to pace your story is, you know, how, [chuckles] how do we do that, ya know?

[JAMIE] Yeah, no matter if you like a nonstop thrill ride, type of story, or a slow, meandering, world building; either way, things need to be happening in your story. There needs to be plot, and events, or realizations that are happening throughout at a certain amount of intervals that matches your pace that keep the reader moving onward.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. And figuring out pacing, I think, is one of the most crucial aspects of storytelling. Because you notice it even in conversations, when the conversation dies out, all of a sudden, your pacing has dropped off. And then you struggling to pick up the threads and find something interesting to talk about. And we don't ever want that to happen in our stories. Fortunately for us, we get to go back and edit them so that we can remove those bits. So why is it important? Obviously, it's, [laughing] it’s so that your reader won't put your book down. That's why it's important. Like, it's literally, it is the make or break in so many stories that I read, whether or not I keep going.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I think it's really hard to talk about pacing without like, also touching on structure.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] How do I explain what my brain is thinking? I feel like everybody can relate to that. Like, if you look at the three act structure that is like the bare bones cheat sheet, to pacing. Because they're like plot points like inciting incident, call to action, rising action, obstacle, midpoint, etc. Those things are part of structure and plot, but also pacing, and then all of the detailed information that are specific to our stories, the little character developments and realizations that go in between those marks, are pacing. And you have to be giving people new information.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] At a rate that keeps them flipping them pages.

[KARLI] That's almost exactly what I—

[JAMIE] Because there's, there's just the way—pacing, pacing works.

[KARLI] Yeah. Well, and as a disclaimer, I mean, we talk a lot about the three act structure, because that's what we know and tend to use the most. But there are other structures out there that I mean, if you like different structures, then you know, we're not saying that that's, that's not valid, because it is, it's just we're talking about it in the context, because this is what we know about. So take any structure you like to work with. And the things that are happening within that format, is your pacing, how quickly you go from event to event or how slowly you take things in between that is pacing.

[JAMIE] I use the three act structure as just an example because it's like you can do three, four, five. It's just that is the most common—people know those cues.

[KARLI] People know it quite well at this point. So yeah.

[JAMIE] Breaking down complex things is—can kind of be a beast sometimes.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] We've said the obvious. Pacing is what moves your story forward. I wanted to break it down to like a more of a base level. Like, what does that mean? Because you know, when people explain stuff and you're like, Yeah, but what does it mean? Like on a on the page?

[KARLI] On a tangible…

[JAMIE] What does that look like? And that's where I'm like the scene breakdowns and the multiple use scenes are important.

[KARLI] We talk a lot about like, these are the things that you—that we do, that we should do, but so rarely do you find really tangible, actionable steps, I guess in order to be able to understand what it is you're trying to do. So how do you go about figuring out if you are handling your pacing properly?

[JAMIE] A good way to go about that is I asked questions. I will look at industry little scenes, and then ask the series of questions and see how that affects my pacing. The first is, is this scene doing anything for the plot? What plot points are being hit? Are there none? Are there too many? And then I go to, how was the scene advancing the character? Because character arcs are also part of pacing and growth. Then I move to, how is this scene deepening the world? Because world building also factors into pacing. Just because you want to move at a quicker rate doesn't mean you have no worldbuilding.

[KARLI] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] The way I tie all three of those questions together, because it's like not to get—I mean, we both hate math, not to get into the math of it all. But there's like, a formula that you have to figure out for your writing and your style. What of these aspects is most important?

[KARLI] Yeah, like a ranking system even.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] If you didn't, if you don't want to use the word formula.

[JAMIE] Or like when you cook, what spices and what levels you want things to be at, for what your tastes are?

[KARLI] Absolutely. And what order are you going to tackle those things in order to get the best flavor?

[JAMIE] Now I'm hungry.

[KARLI] Yeah, [chuckling] I am really hungry.

[JAMIE] The next question is, does this scenes level of importance to the plot, character and world match its length? So am I waxing poetic about something that's not that important because I wanted to? Or am I giving the appropriate amount of weight for what we're realizing to give readers time to digest it?

[KARLI] Yeah, I will—I will fully admit, I love those questions. And I think that they're all great. But I, pacing is something that I personally struggle with. It's one of my bigger hurdles, whenever I'm writing something. And I definitely have had to lean more heavily on feedback for figuring out certain things, and once somebody like flags it, I'll be like, okay, yeah, I can see that. But before I tend to get in the weeds with it. But one thing that I was thinking about, and something that I forget frequently that I think is one of the bigger problems is exactly what you said, like, am I drawing focus to something that is not crucial to what's going on? And it is the literal stopping and smelling the roses. I mean, if you're putting those words on the page, you are telling your reader that they matter. You wouldn't put it on there if it wasn't important, right? And so you have to stop and think, is it important that my character stops to smell the rose? Well, yeah, because then he punctures his finger, and then there's poison in his veins, and he has to get the antidote. Like, there has to be a whole line of reasoning behind why things are there. And if you want to have pretty flower description, if you want to get purple prosy, sure, but it also needs to serve a purpose in furthering your character, uh, in furthering your story. And I spend a lot of time on words that don't serve anything except my own ego stroking. [laughs]

[JAMIE] I love a good world building. I don't listen to Brandon Sanderson for nothing. You're right. Like you have to have that balance. If somebody is going to describe a field to me, and it takes three pages to describe this beautiful field, and then when you realize that his mentor has died, it only takes two paragraphs.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] You have to give the proper weight and pace to what's the most like, impactful. I'm not saying that you couldn't do that.

[KARLI] Are you going to circle back to that field of poppies later? Because they're all gonna fall asleep in the field, because magic.

[JAMIE] Or is it just like, that was what—I just wanted to talk about these poppies for a while.[KARLI] Right, right, exactly. So...

[JAMIE] You got to evaluate like, is this something that is so important, it needs its own scene? Is this something that can be condensed? Or is it something that really needs to be elongated and fleshed out even more? Those are factors. And then the last question is, if I removed this entirely, would it affect anything at all?

[KARLI] I don't like to answer that question.

[JAMIE] You hate that question. It's Karli's least favorite quesiton.

[KARLI] It's my favorite question. And Jamie always makes me ask it and I love her for it. She makes me a better writer for it. But I still don't like it.

[JAMIE] I'm like, if you want to keep this could you make it mean something?

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I'm pretty sure you have said that verbatim to me at least once before.

[JAMIE] I'm like I get it. It is really cool. But also...

[KARLI] Something needs to happen with this.

[JAMIE] That's just like one way that you can—and I'm not saying that that's gonna work for everybody. I'm just saying that those are some things you could potentially ask yourself about some of your scenes that would make you think about your pacing and the vibe of your story.

[KARLI] I mean, if you are building a world that has a lot of mystery inherent in it, then sure, you're going to end up mentioning some things that you may not call back to for chapters later.

[JAMIE] Or maybe even a book or even a book later.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. And so just because somebody else may not be able to see it, you know, if you know that serves a purpose, stick to your guns on it, but also be honest with yourself. Hmm, I'm preaching to the choir on this one. Is this a callback? Or is this just…

[JAMIE] Indulgent.

[KARLI] Indulgence! Thank you. I was trying to find the right word. And that's it. To get further into this whole example of talking about the world building, every genre has different pacing requirements. You're talking epic fantasy, bringing up Brandon Sanderson. And I mean, pretty much every other epic fantasy writer out there, like, we, we show up for that.

[JAMIE] Oh, yeah.

[KARLI] And we know going into it, it's going to take some time and the pacing is going to be vastly different than it will be in a crime thriller.

[JAMIE] Oh yeah. You don't pick up a epic fantasy novel and expect to be just like, go go go.

[KARLI] Break neck speed. You'd die because you would—

[JAMIE] You would be exhausted. When it comes to epic fantasy. I think that the magic in it, and why I always mentioned Brandon Sanderson is because even though it's like a slower build a slower revelation of the world; he's a master of making scenes count for something. There's always new information that's being revealed, even if it's just about the way the magic system or the world works. Um, little tidbits that you are like slowly mining in this slower paced book.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] But the new information is still there driving the reader forward.

[KARLI] Absolutely. He is a master at pacing. Yeah, it's the revelations. I think a lot of times, we get stuck in our heads about a good paced book, even when I was googling what pops up. Good fast paced books. Like that's all that people think of; they think good paced, and they think a quick pace. Fast paced. That's not it, those things aren't one in the same. You know, yes, there absolutely can be good fast paced books, but there can be good slow paced books and slow middling pacing books, like...

[JAMIE] It's a well paced book. And that it all will depend on, like you said, genre is such a big factor.

[KARLI] Knowing your genre is crucial to you, knowing if you're hitting the right pacing, if you are trying to write an epic fantasy, and you're trying to hit all of the beats as quickly as like a thriller, you're, you're going to just—you're like Sisyphus, like you're pushing that boulder up the hill forever. Like it's not going to work.

[JAMIE] What you're going to end up with is a fantasy, but maybe don't call it epic fantasy, because there's different genre standards.

[KARLI] There's mashups. Yeah, you can definitely—like if you want to write an epic fantasy that is faster paced, absolutely do that just know going in, that you're not going to be marketing to the traditional epic fantasy audience. And so, if you're trying to do something different, just be aware of what it is you're trying to do. And look at other examples that are closer to what you're aiming for. So that you can have like a guideline to kind of follow.

[JAMIE] And then know how to articulate that to readers in your marketing.

[KARLI] Which is so tough.

[JAMIE] Yeah. ’Cause you don't want to promise something and not deliver and then be torn up about it, because you didn't pitch it right.

[KARLI] But that's why you have alpha, critique, and betas like that—that's what they're there for, is to help you find that niche that you're trying to fit into. And if you're pitching it as something, and they're seeing it as something different, that's a flag for you to be, “okay, is my pacing off? Or am I using bad examples? Or what's going on here?” And you can start asking yourself, yeah, some of the questions that you brought up, those are great places to start.

[JAMIE] I haven't read as much epic fantasy in recent years. Most of the epic fantasy I've read in the last five years, is Brandon Sanderson. Because I know that all these details that he's slowly revealing over time always equate to something. They're always building to something.

[KARLI] He always keeps his promises.

[JAMIE] So far, he's always kept his promises. The second book in The Stormlight Archives, which I believe is Words of Radiance. The pacing of that, to the buildup of what is like the climax of the book or like the big moment is the most memorable build and climax of an epic fantasy book. It's like that's chef's kiss what I want in my epic fantasy.

[KARLI] Yeah? Well, and I think that that's, that's definitely an example of the fact that a lot of people, I think, that are used to faster pace, their drawback to the slower pace is that if you, if you end up having having a bad example of a slower paced book where you don't get the payoff, it doesn't—you don't get that reward. Like this, this tension that is being slowly stretched across the whole book. If you don't have an author that can give you the payoff in direct proportion to the amount of time that they made you wait, it's not going to be worth it to you to read a slower paced book. It's just not.

[JAMIE] You said that perfectly. It's proportional, that slow, built up tension felt very earned. And then the payoff was there as a reader, I made it and it was all worth it. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yes, yeah, you want to feel as though it's worth it in the end. And I think that's the challenge with pacing. How do you keep your readers engaged in what's happening in a moment by moment basis, and experiencing the emotions that you want them to, because sometimes you do want them to slow down and take a breath and consider the information that has just been given to them. And sometimes you want to keep them moving really quickly for several different reasons. And you have to find that balance to get them all the way to the end, so that you can give them the payoff. Because I mean, that's—let's be honest, that's what we're here for. Like, we like the journey, but we also really like a good payoff.

[JAMIE] Yeah, you can't be like, just keep reading. I know it's hard now, but it'll be worth it. No, nobody's doing that.

[KARLI] Well, some, some people are. [laughs]

[JAMIE] I'm not. [laughs]

[KARLI] Some people are and I used to be one of those people. But that's a whole can of worms. [chuckling] That’s a discussion for another day. I whenever people have discussions like this, I'm like, Okay, fine, but like, how, how do you make it faster paced? Or how do you make it slower paced? Or how do you know the difference? And I mean, I think it even comes down to your, your sentence structure, and your punctuation. And the way that you format your page, and...

[JAMIE] Dialogue tags.

[KARLI] Dialogue tags, absolutely. Like those little things, you know, if you have a big block of text that is going to slow a reader down, even a quick reader, because it's a large block. Smaller lines are going to draw them to the next one faster and faster and faster. And you have to think about okay, how long do people pause for a comma? And how long do they pause for a period, and do run on sentences make them read faster, or slower to figure out what exactly is going on? And so like playing with those elements are how different—and different writers use different tools. Some people I know swear by the fact that short, punchy sentences, read faster. I've heard some people argue there's more periods. And so they're going to stop longer naturally, because their mind tells them it's a period and they pause longer than they would for a comma and so they like it when there's more—

[JAMIE] If it's a big chunk, I'm definitely reading that slower. Now that you said it now, even in my own writing, I'm like, oh, yeah, I definitely veer towards more small paragraphs than one big paragraph.

[KARLI] You have punchier sentences, especially in your moments of tension building.

[JAMIE] Thank you.

[KARLI] And I think that that's true, the thing that you go for, I do think that you achieve, you achieve a quicker pace. And mine tend to be slower and sometimes slower than I even want, which is where I'm very grateful to have you helped me be like, "Hey, this is really draggin'. Let's pick up the pace." [laughs]

[JAMIE] And then you are like, "Can you maybe slow down and tell us where we are? Because we're just a bunch of talking heads, [Karli laughs] like we need to know where were at." And I'm like, okay, okay.

[KARLI] Fine.

[JAMIE] Balance people, balance.

[KARLI] Exactly. When I was a newer writer, I was so frustrated that people didn't talk about like, I didn't know what I didn't know.

[JAMIE] The formatting and grammar. Yeah.

[KARLI] But once I learned about, like, you know, formatting your page and, and how you deliver your sentences and your dialogue and all of those things. It matters.

[JAMIE] But that's a great point, because that's not even something I even thought about. But that's so, so true.

[KARLI] Yeah, it just, it contributes so much to how your pacing goes, how long your chapters are, how short your scenes are. There's so many little factors. I mean, the best thing to do, like I don't know—I guess we’re had advice giving time—is read. We talk a lot about reading and I know that like a lot of people don't have time to like sit and read. But if you can get eyes on the page so that you can visually see how they're formatting, how they're able to achieve what they're doing. But you can hear it even if you're listening to audio, and you just pay attention to the way that they're delivering the dialogue and stuff. But I mean, as a writer, it is helpful to actually visually see it on the page. I know it's helped me to actually look at it and go, oh, I didn't realize they have like, em dashes for interruptions. And then I use too many em dashes. And so you know, I get carried away, but...

[JAMIE] Calibrate.

[KARLI] We can't all be perfect.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] When pacing is done, well, you don't even notice it, which is kind of what you're going for. But when it's done poorly, you do notice it. For me, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[KARLI] Absolutely. It leaves you going, why? Why was that weird? It's like that, when you have an awkward interaction, in real life. I know as socially awkward people, we all have a lot of awkward moments in real life. But you know, when you have a good interaction with somebody, you can feel it, you have—you had a good time, there weren't any of those awkward pauses. And when you're either watching or reading something, where you're like, I feel like I just had an awkward, like social interaction, it throws it off.

[JAMIE] Just like there's more than one way to do correct pacing. It doesn't have to be fast, it doesn't have to be slow. There's more than one way to mess up, as well. There are different, different problems and flaws. And so I have examples which I'm not going to wax poetic about. But I will disclaimer by saying if you enjoyed any of these things, I'm happy for you. I know that lots of people did. I'm just saying that for these specific reasons, they weren't my thing. And because I haven't had as much time to read lately, all of my examples are television based or shows or movies. Two of the things that I'm like, I didn't care for the pacing were, The Book of Boba Fett, and The Wheel of Time. Don't come at me. [Karli laughs] If you loved it. I loved it for you.

[KARLI] As much as I am a die hard fan of Wheel of Time, I was very disappointed with the pacing as well. There were plenty of things I did like about the show, but the pacing weren't one of 'em.

[JAMIE] And both of these are for completely different reasons. Boba Fett felt like the wrong type of pacing for the characters legacy.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Everybody thinks of him as the badass bounty hunter. And the pacing was too slow. And it was boring. Not enough things were happening, not enough information that was interesting was being given.

[KARLI] I was interested in enough of what was going on that that wasn't the problem for me. But the first thing that you said that the pacing was wrong for the character, I completely agree with that. I love the Star Wars world. So I—there was enough interesting information coming at me because I'm always interested in like the different things going on in the universe, period. But it pulled apart one of my favorite characters. I stopped watching though, as much as I was interested just because it was, it was ruining this vision that I had of one of my all time favorite characters.

[JAMIE] We were more watching it because it was a thing to watch and to have seen to relate to other aspects of the Star Wars universe.

[KARLI] Yeah, and I'm sure I'll finish because of that, but I'm not going to be happy about it. [laughs] Which is sad.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I get that a lot of people like the Star Wars universe so much that that keeps them interested. But I feel like a piece of work should be able to like not depend on some sort of previous built in fan base, like it should be good enough to draw its own.

[KARLI] You're touch—you're touching on stuff that we're gonna have to can of worms and come back to another episode because, oh, don't even get me started on that.

[JAMIE] So to me, The Book of Boba Fett was the wrong pacing for the character. And it, it bored me, people are gonna hate me. It didn't pace out the hype. And for The Wheel of Time, it was a completely different problem. And there's so many factors that I'm going to try and put a lot of information in a very, very short amount of time. There are so many factors with making a movie and what you get funding for and who's making the decisions. So nothing is one person's fault. There's a lot of moving parts. This season should have had more episodes, they should have had more time to do the story. But even with what they did have, I felt that some of the earlier episodes, time was squandered on things. We're giving a lot of importance to something that didn't feel like it needed to be as long as it was and then we quickly skipped over things that were really interesting and really important.

[KARLI] Yep, absolutely.

[JAMIE] So two very different problems for my preferences in those things I needed more, I just wanted more of some things and way less of other things. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah, I absolutely agree with those examples.

[JAMIE] It's sad because they only got eight episodes. And there's so many characters. And when you have that many characters in such a short amount of time, you don't have as much time to invest in any one individual character. That was a pacing issue, too, because sometimes your pacing is personal development.

[KARLI] Absolutely. Especially when you're building off of an epic fantasy, which I think is such a struggle that a lot of people don't realize, which is I think, again, why they should have had more episodes, but I understand why they didn't, because the standard isn't at that. But the problem is, there's not many epic fantasy—live action, epic fantasy out there. So they don't really have a good margin to com—or whatever—they don't have a good thing to compare it up against. There's not a lot of data out there to say, eight episodes isn't enough time. Although I would argue it would have been enough time if they hadn't have just made stuff up out of nowhere. [laughs] But there's—that's a whole other discussion, so.

[JAMIE] Yeah, the epic fantasy into series is still fairly new in the game. This is like, it used to be like, you know, Lord of the Rings movies were made. But we've moved on to like, oh, what if we made these into shorter series, which, let's be honest, like all fans love. Like we're going to get—that means we're going to get more of than we would in a movie. But the industry is still figuring out the sweet spot of how to do that. So it's like, I get it.

[KARLI] Yeah, they had a really distinct challenge to um, tackle there. And I just don't think that they had enough space to do it in and, and they just, they, they had some pacing issues that I think could have been fixed within the space that they did have. But that is my personal interpretation. So I have, I have another example. And in this one is a TV show, which I—it's such a challenge to even bring it up because I haven't finished the show itself. But this one season in particular really bothers me, and—or parts of the season—and that's Breaking Bad. And everybody raves about Breaking Bad. And don't get me wrong, like I'm enjoying it. And I will finish. But bits of season two and season three, just bored me to tears. And it was really disappointing because I was—it offered in the first season—this is what this is going to be and then it turned into um, a whiny main character. And we just spent so much time on this main character. Walter's being just a whiny mess. And I'm like, I have no interest anymore in this. Like, I don't want to watch him be a whining mess. I want to watch him do stuff. And if he's also whining in the process, fine. [chuckling] Like, he's got a whole lot of crazy stuff going on. It's understandable that he whines sometimes. But that felt like all he was doing. And I'm like this is a pacing problem. We are spending far too much time on this. And not enough time on developing the other aspects of the plot.

[JAMIE] Yeah. If you're looking for like good examples and case studies for pacing, I believe it's done well, I think Baby Driver, if you're looking for like a fast pace, adventure, I think that one just delivers how to do fast paced well.

[KARLI] Where you give the appropriate breaks at the appropriate times and still keep things moving along at a quick clip.

[JAMIE] Yes, exactly. And on the opposite end of the spectrum, I was thinking about the show The OA on Netflix, because it is kind of more of a slow burn. And with every episode, you're getting this new information that just really spurs you to watch the next episode. It's so sad it got cancelled after two seasons.

[KARLI] And see, that makes me not want to watch it because I don't like it when that happens.

[JAMIE] But it was just—it's weird. It's weird, but it's amazing.

[KARLI] That's great. Thank you for sharing those. I have not seen either of them. They are on my list. But a good example of a fairly fast paced comedy type movie—which I don't know maybe that's not the best way to explain it—I'm gonna say the movie you can tell me. Stranger Than Fiction, I feel like keeps things moving at a steady rate but there are beats of slower pace and contemplation. I feel like it is very well balanced.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] It is one of my favorite movies.

[JAMIE] That's a good example.

[KARLI] Yeah, thank you.

[JAMIE] So do you have a two cent recommendation for us this week, Karli?

[KARLI] I do. My recommendation for this week is The Jekyll Revelation by Robert Masello. I think that's how you pronounce it. Sorry if it's wrong. It is a mystery thriller and like alternate Historical suspense. So it's got kind of like a fantasy vibe to it. Basically, it's this modern day environmental scientist finds the secret journal of Robert Louis Stevenson, who wrote The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And so he's reading the journal and it's going back and forth between modern day and the journal. And he's piecing together this mystery of something that obviously didn't happen in real life. And it's a very interesting, the way that it is paced back and forth. Because sometimes what's modern day is what's faster paced, and sometimes it's what's in the journal. And so it, I think, is a really great example of a different way to pace your book and keep things rolling.

[JAMIE] Nice.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] There's just so much to think about when it comes to pacing. It's trial and error. You're gonna figure it out as you go. The more books you write, the better you get.

[KARLI] Yep.

[JAMIE] [laughing] Insert all the normal advice.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely.

[JAMIE] Just keep going. Thanks for listening, follow and subscribe on Spotify or Apple podcasts. A transcript will be available on our website at scifiohmy.com/podcast. You can find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast or on Twitter @theactbreak_. That's all for this week, and we hope that it was helpful.

[KARLI] Thanks for listening, internet friends.

Magic Systems - Transcripts

[JAMIE] You know, a thing I learned later in life was that according to some of the tellings of The Little Mermaid, who traded her tail for legs, so that she could be with Eric, the prince, is that he then cheated on her. And then the only way she could go back to the sea was to slit his throat and let his blood go over her legs [laughing] so she could get her tail back.

[KARLI] Did you know that basically, every—

[JAMIE] Oh yeah.

[KARLI] Disney movie is actually a horrifically dark and horrible, horrible tale. And I have always wondered who, who was like, "Hey, guys. I have a great idea for some children's movies." Who’s, who's in charge? [laughs]

[JAMIE] The Lion King, [laughing] completely stolen from start to finish.

[KARLI] I remember. What it was Kim—? Kimba?

[JAMIE] It's Kimba.

[KARLI] Kimba, yeah. But they—I mean, but did you steal it if you win the lawsuit?

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Legally, is this stolen intellectual property? That's what we call people crushin' money. [Karli laughs] The reason I use that term, if you haven't watched I Care A Lot...

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] It's got Rosamund Pike and Peter Dinklage.

[KARLI] I love Peter Dinklage! Yeah, that was a really good one.

[JAMIE] She's so good. She's still getting everything I've seen her in.

[KARLI] Right.

[JAMIE] Actually, I've only really can recall those two. I Care A Lot. And The Wheel of Time. I know I've seen her and other things, but I cannot pluck them from my mind.

[KARLI] I find that very irritating when I'm like, oh, I love them. They're amazing. But I can't remember anything that they're in, especially when you're talking to somebody else that, you know, you're not as comfortable with them.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[KARLI] And then you're like talking about how much you love them. And then you can't remember anything that they're in.

[JAMIE] Yeah, you don't always have like a friend who you can turn to and be like, “Hey, who's that one guy?”

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And then you'll know and then you'd be like, what are they in? Yeah, I'm that person usually. [laughs]

[KARLI] I know, I just need to carry you around in my pocket.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] Welcome back to The Act Break, where the magic happens.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] [laughing] Don’t say that. No, I love it.

[KARLI] I can say whatever I want. It's my job. This is my job today to introduce everything. I can say what I want. Welcome back to The Act Break, where magic happens.

[JAMIE] I want to like add a magical like, [makes magical tones with her mouth].

[KARLI] [laughs] Good.

[GRETA] Do it.

[JAMIE] That's what it was. I just did it.

[KARLI] [laughing] That’s what it is. We have a really high budget. I'm Karli, lover of all things magics.

[JAMIE] I'm Jamie and I enjoy a good magical tale, somebody who just enjoys talking all about the magic of it all.

[GRETA] And I'm Greta Valentine. I'm also a speculative fiction writer who tends to work fantasy in long form. But I like to explore all kinds of weirdness in short fiction, anything goes.

[KARLI] Welcome, Greta!

[GRETA] It's good to be here.

[KARLI] Just a bunch of nerds, chatting together. It's gonna be a good time. All right, today, we have our guest and friend, Greta, joining us to talk about magic systems. We're gonna break them down and pick them apart. See what they're made of. Fairy dust and things? Probably? I don't know. We'll find out. So let's start off with what? What is a magic system? Do we have like a general—Jamie, do you have a definition? Did you—

[JAMIE] I don't think that Webster's dictionary has magic systems in it.

[KARLI] You didn't even look?

[JAMIE] I don't think so.

[KARLI] I was relying on you.

[JAMIE] A magic system in the way that we are referring to it would be, the system in which your story or book uses elements of mystical properties and things that cannot be explained by natural science or technology.

[KARLI] Look at you go.

[JAMIE] Boom.

[KARLI] Episode over. That's it, guys.

[JAMIE] Because that's all you need to know.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Nothing else important.

[JAMIE] Not an educational podcast.

[KARLI] So obviously, magic systems come in all different forms. The easiest way I think to start breaking them down is to talk about the different types of magic systems that you can see. And I'm talking about like hard magic, soft magic. What are those things? Let’s, let's dive in. Greta, how would you describe hard magic?

[GRETA] So the definition that comes to mind to me kind of is one that has to do with details and rules. So hard magic to me is a system that has enough explained that the reader understands that the characters understand so that the magic can influence the plot, and be kind of a device to like, solve problems that directly influence the plot. But the reader and the character, like have enough information about the limitations and the rules so that that can solve problems.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah, I like the way you describe that.

[JAMIE] Do you have a book that like comes to mind when you're like, oh, this is obviously a very hard magic system.

[GRETA] So, what I discovered in the process of preparing for this podcast is that I read and write very little hard magic. And when I looked up examples of hard magic systems, like the only one that comes to mind that I'm like [chuckles] even like very familiar with is like the Grishaverse. So Shadow and Bone, like how the Grisha function within that world. I saw a lot of examples, Avatar The Last Airbender, some of Brandon Sanderson's works. I just am not familiar with too many stories, apparently, that have very hard magic systems.

[JAMIE] The Grishaverse is a good example, though, the other one that comes to my mind is Brandon Sanderson's, Mistborn.

[GRETA] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] Because that's incredibly detailed, like they lay out exactly how it works, to the point where if you're a reader, and you got dropped into that world, you'd know exactly what needed to happen.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah, Brandon Sanderson writes a lot of hard magic systems. He has soft magic stuff, too, which we can get into next. Jamie, do you want to talk about soft magic a little bit?

[JAMIE] Soft magic is probably what I enjoy most, even though I do obviously, enjoy the hard magic. Because magic with a little bit air of mystery, where maybe it's not explained to me, is fine with me, because it's a principle that I think translates also to science fiction. And it's, I don't need to know how to build a cell phone to use a cell phone. I do want to know, like the rules or consequences of using magic, but I don't need to necessarily know exactly where it came from, and how every little thing is performed.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So it's much more mystical, I think.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] So soft magic, definitely. There are like Greta was explaining, it's, it's basically the opposite of hard magic, where, you know, with hard magic, you have lots of explanations of how things work it so that the reader really grasps and understands how exactly they can use the magic to solve problems. And soft magic is much more, we don't really know what it does; and anything could happen with it really. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Everybody knows this character, and it's soft magic. And that's Gandalf.

[GRETA AND KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I mean, very few people have read The Silmarillion. [Greta and Karli chuckle] To know how, and even then, do you really even know how it works? But like, in The Lord of the Rings, they do magic, and you don't have any explanation? And you don't care. It's fine.

[GRETA] Yeah, and I would say like, in my definition of hard magic, I know, I said that it influences the plot. And that's kind of slippery, right? Because I think that soft magic can definitely like add tension. It can introduce problems. It can introduce like an air of mystery, but it doesn't necessarily like have to do with the character understanding the mechanics of it.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to also talk about how I've mentioned, Brandon Sanderson, has hard magic, but he also has soft magic. I really enjoy the stories where there's a spectrum, or where there's multiple forms of magic working together, or against each other, or against the characters. One of the examples that I really thought of, in this regard, is The Name of the Wind. He has a hard magic system, which is the sympathy and that's basically like science; very strict rules for how that works, or doesn't work. And then there is a soft magic system, which is naming. And that is much more elusive, and you don't really know how it works, and neither do they. So it's possible to have both and I really enjoy stories that have both.

[JAMIE] The word that keeps coming to mind in soft magic is mystical.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] Because it's that air of mystery. Like Dr. Strange is a mystic.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So you know, kind of the things you can do with it. But not how.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I love the whole naming thing in The Name of the Wind, because it's very cerebral, like you have to expand your mind to do it or to understand it.

[KARLI] Yeah, I think a lot of myths and legends are soft magic. We know that there's these entities that can do things and magical things happen, but we have no idea really why or how, but we're good with it. And we just roll.

[GRETA] Yeah, and I love that. 'Cause that I think is one of my favorite things about stories with magic is just how it is part of the world. And it's just there. And I was thinking a lot about fairy tale and mythology influenced things for soft magic, because it just is such a part of the world that's just accepted.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[GRETA] And that actually, like made me think I have a question for you all about the kind of spectrum from hard to soft, because fairy tales, like very often have that kind of like mystical quality where the character doesn't understand how the magic works. But also, there are fairy tales like Sleeping Beauty or something where there's like a curse that has to be broken. And there's like, one thing that they have to do, like true love's kiss will awaken the princess or whatever. So like, is that soft magic? Or is that like, harder magic with only one rule? [Karli lauhgs] I was thinking about this with like, a lot of the examples that I came up with, [chuckles] like even Jumanji or something like that, like you have to finish the game. Is that—

[JAMIE] I would still consider that soft magic.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[GRETA] Yeah. Just because of the lack of explanation of like, how it works and where it comes from? Yeah.

[JAMIE] Jumanji. I think that's a great example, where it's like, we don't know how the board got to be that way. If it was made that way, or if it was cursed, or...

[KARLI] Did it come from a magical tree? Or … yeah.

[JAMIE] And we don't have to know for the plot.

[GRETA] True.

[JAMIE] Like you were saying even soft science fiction can or soft magic systems can influence the plot, we don't necessarily need to know everything about them to understand the plot.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[GRETA] True.

[KARLI] I agree with that. Hard magic tends to lean much more towards understanding how the magic works or the origin of it. And that being important to us understanding what's happening in the, in the story. Now that we've talked about all of those things, when we consider writing a magic system within our own story, or we just want to have magic in it. I mean, they're all magic systems, it's just we say that. And I think that the default might be to assume that it means a more structured magic, but it doesn't have to be a hard magic, in order for it to be a magic system. There's, there's so many things to think about. I just kind of wanted to drop some of these examples in there, some of the things to think about in order to make your magic systems feel more like they're important in our story. And they aren't just this element that we dropped in as an afterthought.

[JAMIE] I kind of get what you're talking about where no matter what level of magic system you have, if you have magic in your book, it needs to be intertwined with the plot. Because if you could lift your magic system out and have like, the same exact plot, then what why do you have a magic system? No matter if you're explaining the whole thing, or not explaining it or keeping it loose ... if it doesn't affect the plot, there's no point. Is that kind of what you were—

[KARLI] Yes, yes, that is what I'm saying. Thank you for expanding on that. So there are different ways to I think to go about making sure that we've at least considered them even if even if we're not going to explain them, like you said, in depth. And some of those things are like you know, the magical limitations, I think is one of the more interesting ways to look at it. What can't your magic do? And then looking at that, how that affects your characters and the story and what's going on there. Anybody else have any ideas or examples of things, to—that you think are important to consider when you're looking at your magic system in relation to your story?

[GRETA] Yeah, I think that's important, what you said in terms of thinking about how the magic affects the plot and the characters. I like to have it thematic element that ties my magic to the story that kind of like, explains why it's there. Because the magic does influence the choices the character can make, like it's a part of the world, it's, it's something that's like real for them. But I also like when that is not necessarily something that can solve problems for them. And it just demonstrates that like, even though that's part of their world, it's a lens through which they see the world and through—that kind of like limits the choices they can make. It does come down to like their choices and consequences and how they use the magic. So Jamie, you had mentioned like, it would be a different story if you lifted the magic out. And that's definitely true. But for me, I like to think about how the magic kind of like, casts into a sharper relief, like the choices and the consequences that my characters are making. And that magic is not the element that's like actually solving the problem or resolving the conflict for them. It's kind of like how they choose to use it.

[JAMIE] I totally get what you mean. It made me think of kind of like as a case study, Harry Potter. They use magic, but they have problems that can't just be solved purely by magic; they have to take their own actions. But also, as much as I adore Harry Potter, there's no cost to magic. Sure, there's cost to types of magic. But in general, they can use as much magic as they want, all the time. And it's important that your magic costs something. It doesn't come for free, there needs to be an exchange. Otherwise, like in Harry Potter, people are just using magic all the time to solve their problems. And if they're not, then you're like, well, why didn't you just use magic? Because it doesn't cost you anything.

[KARLI] With that, I do agree I—but there is also the limitation of knowledge, how much, how much magic do you actually understand and your ability to use it? Because it's like, you might know the words. But if you don't understand it, or you don't pronounce it right, or whatever, it's not going to do exactly what you want. But that's more of a limitation than a cost. Greta, I loved what you said about it being a lens. That was a very visual thing for me that you said. And I agree that I think, a magic system, if it—if your magic exists in your world, and that's just—you're not introducing somebody from the outside and they're experiencing it for the first time. If you're, for everybody else it's just it's a state of permanence. It is, there it is, what it is, and how does that inform their decisions and the consequences of their choices? I love that. Which I think goes into character relationship and reaction to the magic. Because not everybody is going to have the same relationship to magic or the same reaction to it. I mean, like, some people are going to take it much more seriously, some people are going to be more flippant about it. I mean, I think that that's just on like, a very basic level of reaction to it.

[GRETA] Yeah, I love that element of magic, actually. Because like in some stories, magic is like a powerful ability then like an accepted ability for certain characters. And it is like a forbidden thing for other characters. And so even the fact of using magic has consequences. Like those people might be feared, or outcasts, or something like that.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[GRETA] So I really do value like the nuance within a story of looking at magic through different characters perspectives.

[KARLI] I mean, especially when you get into mythology. I was thinking of Gods of Jade and Shadow by Silvia Moreno-Garcia. The main character, she just, she lives in a world where myths are a very much a part of her culture. And so when something crazy happens, she just goes with it, because it's real to her. Because as writers, magic isn't real for us, it is something that is made up, that we are making up. And I think the hazard could be that because it is not real for us, we input our own reactions to the magic into our characters heads—and that might work for your particular character or your story—but it's not necessarily going to be the same for every single character. Or in fact, it shouldn't. I mean, really, you have a wide range of characters, they're all going to have different perspectives and thoughts. Just like you get a group of people in the same room; the three of us while, we might have similar passions and ideas, we all see things different because of our own personal lens.

[JAMIE] I like what you were saying, Greta, too about different characters can be feared it, because—spoiler alerts for the Mistborn series—a lot of people who use this magic system, but there is like a certain group of people who are using this different type, like kind of like a darker magic, they're basically feared. They've used this magic to a point that's mutilate—mutilated their own bodies in order to use this magic when those people are in a crowd, even though this whole world is aware of magic and how magic works, those people are feared still. Yeah, you can introduce multiple types of magic, different levels, and how that affects perspectives of the magic system. If that makes sense.

[KARLI] Well, because then then there's another facet of that exact world where the—there's an echelon of people that utilize this magic and they are nobility, and they have a good cushiony life because they have access to this when the dredges do not. So that goes into play with accessibility, like who has access to the magic, who doesn’t, and why. Whether you're doing hard magic or soft magic, you don't necessarily have to answer that question within the context of your story or directly, but you being aware as the writer of who has access and who doesn't, will inform the way that you go about telling this story.

[GRETA] Yeah, that's a great point. And I think that's like, as writers a good reason that we have like critique partners and stuff. Because when you're coming up with an entire system of rules, you are like so steeped in figuring out the mechanics; like even though that might not be the thing you want to come across on the page. So it can be great to hand it off and say, like, how did this read to you like, what's your reaction to this? Because yeah, sometimes we're not like getting enough detail across like, sometimes it might be way too much for like, what that character would naturally know about the magic. Like you were saying, Karli.

[KARLI] Yeah, or way too vague, or...

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And I feel like sometimes in the development process, if you're building a whole magic system, or like a whole world, sometimes those elements change as you develop them. And it can potentially be hard to keep straight what you remember and what you've removed. So that's why you need somebody to go through and read and tell you what made it onto the page. [Karli chuckles]

[GRETA] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] Because there have been times where it's like, you kind of completely change how we're gonna do these different elements. And it might be because we're like, Well, it's because before I was doing this, and then I changed it, but I didn't change it on the page. [chuckles] So I need to go back, and I'll change it, and I'll fix it, and I'll send it to you again, Karli. [Karli laughs]

[GRETA] Yeah, exactly. Like, especially if it's something with like a lot of detail. That's like an iterative process. So yeah, really good point about seeing what actually shows up on the page.

[JAMIE] Especially if you've been doing it for like, a while or multiple drafts.

[GRETA] Yes.

[KARLI] We get so in our heads with with it like you were saying, Greta, because we're steeped in trying to figure out how to make it work, that we know how it works. So we might think it's implied on the page when it's really not.

[GRETA] Exactly. One of my favorite things about writing the magic is the characterization of the people in your stories. And like, how they understand magic and how they use it, and how that conveys what kind of person they are. And I think a really cool example of that is Uprooted. I really loved like how at the beginning of that story, the two main characters use magic in such different ways. One of them is very, like rigid, proper, like book magic. And the other one is like a disaster and just wants to improvise. [Karli laughs] And over the course of the story that I mean, that really like characterizes their personalities; and like the way that they use magic and the way that they use magic together, changes over the course of the story. And really mirrors like the way that they change as people too. So I love when I can work something like that into a story where the magic is kind of like a parallel or a mirror of like what's going on thematically.

[KARLI] Yes. Or internally for that character.

[GRETA] Right.

[KARLI] Yeah, I love that. And I love that example. I had written Uprooted down as like a note of something to bring up. But I didn't even think of bringing it up from that perspective. But you're so right. It's a fantastic example of that, because we are different personalities. So we will approach it differently.

[GRETA] Right.

[KARLI] And if you do it well, it can serve multiple purposes. You can learn how the magic works. You can learn more about the world and you can learn more about your character.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] That is a very good way to do a show don't tell on getting to know your character because—especially with a contrasting character.

[GRETA] Yeah. And anytime that you can get something like that to work on multiple levels in your story, that's just like, good writer moment.

[KARLI] Right? Well, and it helps you avoid that info dump. Because I think that that is such a difficult part about magic systems and making magic systems. Avoiding the info dump or, or putting the info dump at the right point that the reader cares enough to read the info dump.

[GRETA] Yes.

[JAMIE] I just want to let everybody know that there's so like, we're like, oh, there's all sorts of levels of magic systems. You can also use your magic systems in different ways, storytelling wise. And what I mean is, I have a story that has magic, but I kind of use the magic system as a mystery through the book. By the end you're getting why this magic system exists. You can use your magic system in different ways you can make it a mystery. You can make your magic system into a thriller by tying it to like a murder. Like there's so many different ways you can do it than just like I have to build this magic system. And that's what I build my world on top of.

[KARLI] Yes. Yeah, no, absolutely. You can tie it directly to your sub-genre.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] I love that you brought that up because that is some of my favorite things. And elements is when they can they can either create an error mystery with the magic where I'm trying to figure out okay, well why does this magic work this way or how is this going to affect the character by the end? Or it's compelling and gripping, and it's drawing me forward because I am afraid for them or afraid for the world or whatever.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it can be a slow release of information.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[GRETA] Yeah, it can kind of form different—or it can take different roles in your world. Like it can be there to just provide like a sense of wonder and discovery and like, show a character like learning about the world, or it can be like a toolkit for solving problems, kind of like resolving your conflict, too.

[KARLI] So I mean, I think that that just kind of segues us into this next portion: where, as fantasy writers, why do we need magic systems? Why do we use them? Like Jamie was saying, it can be a genre thing, a plot thing.

[JAMIE] Like, specifically why we need to bind it with rules? Which reminds me of Abed talking about being the Dungeon Master [Karli laughs] and where he's like, "I take a world and I bind it." But if we go into a story, not knowing how we want to use it, using it willy nilly, letting everybody use the magic, letting,—it's kind of like magic could run rampant. And maybe there's, I'm sure there's a cool story where magic is running rampant. [chuckles] And that's the problem. But it can get away from you pretty quickly, if you don't have a system in place. That's why I think it's so important that we need them if we're going to use them in a story.

[GRETA] Yeah, and I think the limitations, I know a lot of, a lot of resources out there that talk about magic systems really focus on the limitations and the consequences and the costs. Because it probably wouldn't be interesting to have a story where magic was just like all over the place, and it just existed and you, you couldn't do anything with it. It says things about your characters in terms of like how they make choices within that framework too.

[JAMIE] Well, it's the superhero problem, too. If you don't have stipulations, and rules and limitations up front, people get more and more powerful. And so then you have to make your protagonists more and more powerful, and then your superhero has to be more powerful to defeat them. And then your Overton Window shifts. It happens in Marvel movies a lot. Because there are characters who have no super abilities, they are literally just humans. So they really shouldn't be able to square up with super powered people. But eventually over the course you're like, sure, Natasha Romanov can totally fall off a five story building and walk away fine. [Karli laughs] For some reason, even though she's just a human.

[KARLI] She's not wearing Vibranium. It's fine.

[JAMIE] No. It's just—it's whatever. She's just—shake it off. But the same thing happens with magic, where it's like, if you don't put a limit on it, it's just gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger. And you're gonna have to make everything—the stakes just you're going to get out of control. [laughs]

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah. I mean, there's, there can be a certain level of enjoyment of watching or reading a story where things are just bonkers like that, where the the monsters are huge, and the superheroes are huge enough to defeat them. But if every single stor—like every single story can't work that way, sometimes we do we just want a good superhero movie. It's totally true. But let's be honest, like we all have those things that irk us that we're like, why? Why does? Why? Why?

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Yeah, because I'm all for like building the stakes. Unlocking new levels of ability. You just need to do—there has to be some sort of rule in place. Because I'm just saying, I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying be careful.

[KARLI] Right? Because I mean, like even if there's like a sudden level up like there is an a lot of like anime, kids shows, especially like—what I'm thinking—my kids been watching Yu-Gi-Oh. And yeah, like suddenly, they're super powerful. But there's reasons behind why it works that way. And so it's fine. Like, if that's what you want to do for your story, fine. You just have to understand why it works that way.

[JAMIE] And if you want the beautiful slow build of power, chef's kiss, I'm just saying Avatar The Last Airbender. So good. The progression, thematically, fits each step of the way. To the point where you're like, I believe it. I believe that that could happen. Yep.

[KARLI] Clearly, we can use magic for a lot of different things other than just coolness. But how do we know how much our story needs? And whether or not we've gone too far with it? Or not far enough? Where do where do we draw the line on our magic for our story? How do we even know?

[JAMIE] I'll go—we'll go deeper into the question question, but my initial reaction is, critique partners. [Karli chuckles] And sometimes you'll be writing and you're like, I don't know if this is too much, but this is what I'm doing right now. And I, if it's too much somebody needs to tell me later. [Jamie and Karli chuckle]

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] What about you? Greta, what do you think?

[GRETA] Yeah. When we were talking earlier about, like defining the level of detail about magic in your story, I was kind of like dividing that in my mind into like, the purpose of magic and the level of detail. And I think it probably matters if you want magic to be part of the crux of like, a plot twist, or like an aha moment, at the end of your story where the character understands its mechanics well enough to use it or to subvert it in such a way that it helps them to resolve a conflict. But I think that it can totally just be there to constrain a set of choices that your character has to make throughout the story or to tell the reader about the kind of world that we're in. And it can just be kind of like an immersion factor to it just depends on like, what kind of story you want to tell.

[KARLI] That was gonna be what I said, it depends on what kind of story you want to tell; because like what you did with “The Raven Wife,” you were telling a very specific kind of story. And I don't want to say too much because like, I don't want spoilers, because people should go read it. But like, you were trying to evoke a certain effect with your story. And so your magic works to the climax to make it have that impact. And we don't necessarily understand. But we don't need to.

[GRETA] Right.

[JAMIE] That's an element I loved about that story. And I love in many stories like it where it gives an echo of real life. And that's that we don't always know why things happen.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] There's not always an explanation. And just because we really want to know, doesn't mean we're going to know, but these things still happen.

[GRETA] Yeah, absolutely. That kind of hits the nail on the head of like, a vibe I love in different kinds of stories. And I think that's why I gravitate towards fairy tales, and magic realism and things like that, where it's just like, magic is not the weird thing. It's like, there’s—there's other things happening to the character. And like, yeah, there's consequences to choices that you make in your life. And we don't always know why things happen. And I think, yeah, sometimes magic can just be a window setting for that. And sometimes it can be like a fundamental part of what your character ends up doing. It just depends on the kind of story.

[JAMIE] If you love that theme, I think that the Wayward Children series is really good. Because it very much has a theme of, we don't know why these things happen to us, but they happen to us. And that's all there is to it.

[KARLI] That's all there is to it. Yes, absolutely. We don't have to understand the mechanics of it to be transported into this world and be invested in what's going on. And I definitely think that that is a very, very fairy tale and myths sort of thing, which is I think, why Neil Gaiman has that kind of impact in most of his stories, because he taps into that. And I think the not understanding exactly what happens made me think of why I like the ambiguous ending so much is because sometimes I think that that's the impact of, of not necessarily understanding why it still happened. But let's pull it back into how do we know where to draw the line for ourselves with our stories? Greta, do you have any guidelines for yourself to help you figure out?

[GRETA] Like how much detail I want to provide to the reader?

[KARLI] Like, where do you how do you know where you draw the line on how much or how little?

[GRETA] I think for me, I have to have enough understanding of the magic system, like the character and the reader have to know enough about magic to inform how the character is going to use it. That's a really ambiguous way of saying it, because that could be a lot or a little depending on what they're trying to do.

[JAMIE] That—it’s situational.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It's like, it just depends on each, not only individual story, but each individual character.

[GRETA] Yeah. And I like the stories where magic is just kind of there. And it's not always explained, but for the charac—stories that I want to tell. Like, I want there to be a reason that the magic does what it does, like it has to tie for me to the theme in some way. So I think that's why I gravitate towards like, maybe healing magic, like in a story about redemption, or like, people coming back together or something like that, like I just like it to parallel the theme in some way. So that like resolutions, or like stakes will resonate on multiple levels.

[KARLI] Yeah, I like that, too.

[JAMIE] This is one of those, let's be honest parts. When I'm defining the level of detail and what needs to be explained, it's the balance between, I really don't want to have to write a giant explanation of this. And, what does my reader absolutely have to know for the story to work?

[GRETA] Right.

[JAMIE] In general, my my own writing is the least amount of work in still achieve the effect I want to achieve.

[GRETA] Right?

[KARLI] And I'm the opposite, where I'm like, how much can I get away with? How much can I put in here before Jamie's like, “Karli, they don't need to know this. It's cool. But it needs to do something besides just be here for, for pretty.” [laughs]

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Do you want to keep it keep it make it work for something. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah, it's tough because I like the sense of wonder. And I think in that I am definitely tap way more into the epic fantasy where things are there for the sense of wonder. But the really good ones have the sense of wonder that also has impact later on.

[GRETA] Yeah, so the payoff or kind of like fulfilling promises, like you want enough detail so that that resonates when it happens.

[KARLI] Does anybody have any examples of some favorite things that they didn't mention already that they wanted to make sure they had to bring up [chuckles] before we wrap this up?

[GRETA] Yeah, one that I wanted to mention was The Ocean at the End of the Lane just because like a, I love Neil Gaiman stories, and like how there's such a spectrum of like, different levels of like telling fairy tales, like actual fairy tales to like modern fairy tales. But the reason that I liked The Ocean at the End of the Lane was that the magic worked on that thematic level for me, like the story is about a character kind of transitioning from one world to another. And meanwhile, it's kind of a portal fantasy in like one of the most kind of gross and disturbing ways that I've seen it done in a book, [Greta and Karli chuckle] but it's kind of about like monsters, like breaking into our world, too. And so, yeah, that that paralleled the theme, like on a way that really resonated for me. And it was just like, I was kind of blown away by how well that worked. Like within such a short story.

[KARLI] Yeah. Unsettling.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] But yes, I, I love that one, too. I really like for character relationship to magic, The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin. The way that her different characters react to and manifest the magic within that world and how they view it for the way that society works is, chef's kiss. So interesting. If you're struggling with trying to figure out how that might look from different perspectives to—it's just, it's a really, really good book. All right. Well, um, Greta, did you have a two cent recommendation that you'd like to share with us?

[GRETA] I actually did not come up with a book. And I didn't come up with like anything related to magic.

[KARLI] That's okay.

[GRETA] Is that okay?

[KARLI] That's fine.

[GRETA] Okay.

[KARLI] You can share anything you want with us.

[GRETA] I have a recommendation for something that has been helping my writing process lately. And that is the Story Toolkit workshop, which is provided by Rachael Stephen. Her website is rachaelstephen.com. She's known for doing the plot embryo, but she has a workshop on kind of how she—her writing process, basically. And it was really helpful for me because it separates the writing process into kind of thinking about your story, like brainstorming problems in your story, deciding what goes into your story, like what becomes canon and then like integrating that into your manuscript. And it was just a really helpful way for me to think about approaching my story. It's free if you Google it. It's like a two hour workshop that you can take online, and I really recommend it.

[JAMIE] Awesome.

[KARLI] That's awesome. I really like her YouTube videos. I'll have to look into that. Nice.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Well, thank you so much, Greta, for joining us.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] We were so happy to have you here today. Thank you for sharing all of your insights.

[JAMIE] So good to have you back.

[GRETA] Yeah, it was good to be back.

[KARLI] You can find Greta on Instagram @greta.valentine.writes. Her short story, “The Raven Wife,” is fantastic. You can find that in the link tree on your Instagram. Correct?

[GRETA] Right.

[KARLI] Awesome. You can also find that story at Five on the Fifth and go into their archives. And yeah, that was last August, right?

[GRETA] Yeah, it was in the August 2021 issue.

[KARLI] Awesome. Thanks, listeners. You can find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast, on Twitter @theactbreak_. Our website is scifiohmy.com/podcast. You can find—uh, sign up for our newsletter as well as transcripts for our episodes there. If you follow us, you will get notifications for our new episodes. We'll be back next week.

[JAMIE] Thanks, Greta. Bye.

[GRETA] Yeah, thank you.

Transcript

DNF Pile - Transcript

[KARLI] I have discovered through typing our transcripts, how often I speak incorrectly on purpose. [Jamie laughs][ And it irks me. Poor grammar, holy crap, poor grammar. It's so bad.

[JAMIE] You say it jokingly. And then when you have to write it, you're like, [gasps] “Oh no!”

[KARLI] I itch to fix it. My brain is like, make this correct grammar. I'm like, oh….

[BOTH] But that's not what I said! [laugh]

[KARLI] I mean, we both do it. But I do it like, we interrupt ourselves in our line of thinking. And so the amount of times we stop and start, and then we start the sentence with one form of a sentence, and then we finish it with another and I'm just like, dear gods help, I— [frustrated dramatic sigh]

[JAMIE] Karli's finally, finally, feeling the intense pain of what I felt all last season—and this season—of trying to make the crap we spew out, [Karli laugh] make any sense to somebody else.

[KARLI] [squeaky talking while laughing] At all.

[JAMIE] And you're getting it after I've edited it.

[KARLI] I know.

[JAMIE] So that it's the best it can be. Welcome to the suck. [Karli laughs] It’s it's real. Well as storytellers and like people who watch a lot of movies. People in movies and books often don't interact like real people interact. That's why if you've ever watched It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, they interact more like real people, because they are always interrupting each other, they're always talking at the same time, and they're always yelling. [Karli laughs] And there's a few movies that do this, as well. But I can't think of them off the top of my head. But it's much more chaotic. But in story and film, we don't do those things because it's hard to understand. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Right? Absolutely. I apologize. I sincerely apologize. [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] Like I'm like, Yeah, I know. I know. I spent hours. [Karli laughs] And that's short. Last year it was uh—

[KARLI] And this is why we do thirty minute episodes now. [laughs] The truth is revealed!

[JAMIE] [dramatic groan] I am so sorry. But like part of me is like really sickly like—

[KARLI] You feel vindicated.

[JAMIE] Yeah, yeah.

[KARLI] I would too.

[JAMIE] That's what it's like!

[KARLI] One hundred percent.

[JAMIE] Season two baby.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] I'm kind of introducing us both today if that's okay.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] I thought we had to do the audio cue so people know.

[KARLI] Well yeah. I mean, I guess it's true. So I mean. [both laugh]

[JAMIE] Well that's what you said.

[KARLI] I will, I will say a whole thing. [laugh] And then you can decide what you want to do with it. Or if you hate it, we'll scrap it.

[JAMIE] Okay, just do your thing. Just remember that next time, I want to introduce you.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] No, only I'm allowed to break the rules that I arbitrarily set forth.

[JAMIE] We must abide by these rules that we're making up as we go along. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] Yes. All right. Welcome back to The Act Break. [silly announcer voice] Today we have a real challenge on our hands, folks. In that corner we have reigning champ, the queen of DNF, Jamie. [Jamie laughs] In this corner, we have the obsessive compulsive, will read anything to completion because, reasons, Karli.

[JAMIE] Wow. The epic battle I want a belt when this is over.

[KARLI] You'll—I'm sure you get a championship belt.

[JAMIE] I'm gonna hold it up over my head and [stage whisper shout] the crowd goes wild. She's the queen.

[KARLI] Yeah, also known as an argument about not finishing books.

[JAMIE] That was that was me realizing that we never talked about the format of the episode before we started.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] True story. We did not so um...

[JAMIE] We're really busy. Its just gonna be what it is.

[KARLI] We'll do our best. [laughs]

[JAMIE] If you don't know what DNF stands for. It's, did not finish.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] So there you go. [both laugh] Words are so hard. That's what that means. You're welcome.

[KARLI] Yep. So today, we're going to chat about our experiences with DNFing things in general. Books, movies, shows, whatever it is that we decided to not finish. We're going to talk about our experiences just in general as a concept. And, you know, I'm sure we'll give some examples in the process. Alright, so if you listeners listened [Jamie laughs] to Jamie's interview. You will know her philosophy on this matter.

[JAMIE] Yes, yes. I'm very, very passionate about—about this particular topic. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yes, you are. And the goal, the goal here is not, we're not here to throw shade. We're not here to like talk crap about things that we didn't finish. We're just wanting to have a conversation about what are some things that make us want to quit?

[JAMIE] [chuckles] Right. Quicker refresher, if you haven't listened to that episode yet—'cause I know you're going to eventually—my philosophy is there's too many books out there that I want to read. So I'm not going to waste any time on something I'm not enjoying or invested in. I'm just going to move on. Just move on. It's fine. It's fine.

[KARLI] And I think I stated my philosophy fairly clearly in my [laughing] introduction of myself. [Jamie laughs] It’s, it's quite squishy as a mood reader. It's all a mess. Mostly. I can't stop myself and I have to finish it. And I don't know why.

[JAMIE] I just imagine in your head, you're like, "I'm no quitter. I'm not gonna be a quitter.”

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I kind of what it is. It's—I am a problem.

[JAMIE] I'm a quitter. I am a quitter. [both laugh] I’ll say it. I quit ten things this week, it doesn't matter. [laughs]

[KARLI] Good for you. Life's too short. Why don't we start with, what are some examples of things that will make you quit reading or watching something? Like, for example, a big one for me is pacing. If the pacing is wrong, I'm more likely to quit a TV show than I am a book. But I have quit a few books.

[JAMIE] Your own personal guilt, like seized you.

[KARLI] It did.

[JAMIE] That’s I mean, that's valid, especially in television, usually the first two seasons of something, a lot of shows don't know what they are yet. [Karli laughs] And so their pacing can be quite erratic.

[KARLI] They're trying to discover the meaning of their existence.

[JAMIE] For example, two super popular shows, The Office and Parks and Recreation happened to be very similar as well, the first and second seasons of those, they're really just trying to figure it out. But then after that, it gets a really, really good. So I get what you mean where it's like, I don't know.

[KARLI] Well, I love that you brought up those as examples because I think it's such an interesting case study for me, because I love Parks and Rec. And The Office is one of the things that I brought to attention today that I DNF’d, and I know that that's like one of your favorite shows. So it's interesting to think about what works for us and what doesn’t. Pacing wise, initially was a problem for me for The Office, but it became more about a particular character that I couldn't invest in.

[JAMIE] Yeah, that was a different. I was thinking mostly in the pacing. Because it's really common, especially in Parks and Recreation. I've heard it a bunch of times, and I've said it a bunch of times with Parks and Recreation, you're like, get through, get to the second—like halfway through the second season.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And then you'll be hooked.

[KARLI] Right.

[JAMIE] But you kind of have to push yourself to get to that point.

[KARLI] Which is so funny, because usually I'm like, I shouldn't have to push myself.

[JAMIE] But it's worth it. [laughs]

[KARLI] But it's worth—but sometimes it's worth it. And so it's such an arbitrary [laughs] thing that we're... Yeah.

[JAMIE] Yeah, pacing is not usually I didn't have pacing as one of my particular things. Because I didn't think about shows as much. My number one reason is lack of interest, or not being invested in the outcome. [chuckles] If I just am bored, or I don't care. [both chuckle]

[KARLI] Well, I'm curious, can you put your finger on what about it is boring you or do you just not put in the time to figure it out?

[JAMIE] It's usually the lack of connection to the main character.

[KARLI] Okay, so it's a character problem.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's usually I'm not invested in that character. And I don't care how they solve whatever problem; or whatever their problem is, doesn't really seem like a problem to me. So I'm like...

[KARLI] It's not worth investing your time.

[JAMIE] Yeah, there's no objective to this story. So I’m just like, bleh.

[KARLI] That's yeah, that's fair. I definitely think that character is a big one for me as well. I think pacing and character are my, my top two reasons.

[JAMIE] My number two I listed as, characters that don't use their brain, or I don't like. When a character is doing something where I'm like, why, like, that's the stupidest thing you could possibly do. And I know, people do stupid things, or people make bad decisions, or whatever. But when that is like the theme. They just are making bad decision after bad decision, just to advance the plot, not for actual reasons.

[KARLI] Oh, that's yeah.

[JAMIE] Then I'm like, no. Or I don't like the character. And they kind of go hand in hand where I'm like, I don't like this person. So I don't care what happens. That's not how I feel in real life. [both laugh] But in a story, you know, in story. It's not—I don't need to invest my time into finding out what happens to this person.

[KARLI] Fair. It does. It's not a burning question for you. I am more willing to sit around and watch people do stupid things than you. [Jamie chuckles] Which is probably not the smartest choice on my part, since I don't have a ton of time on my hands. But I never said that my choices make any sense. So there you go. [laughs] A couple of other things that I feel are lower on the list, but they will pull me out of a story; and if it's happening often enough, I might quit. And that was—those are like, style choice. But mainly like lots of errors, like spelling or typos. Or just poor writing un general. I'm like eh, I can’t, because I'm just sitting here trying to correct your book. But those are, those are lower on the list, I'm more willing to excuse that because I understand that it's tough. An error or two here and there, that's no big deal. People are human, like they're gonna miss the things here and there, you know?

[JAMIE] Yeah. Another big one for me, is when the book is not making good on the concept, or it on the promise of, you know, the cover.

[KARLI] The promise of the premise.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Or even if maybe I interpreted it, like it was going to be something else, and it wasn't what I expected. So if it doesn't make good on the promise of the premise that deters me from pushing onward, because I'm like, oh, well, if I'd have known this was what it was about, I probably would never have started it.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense.

[JAMIE] The last reason I would DNF a book, I don't consider DNFing in a book, which is, I need to come back to it when I have more energy or more focus. Like, so there are books I've put down, but plan to come back to and I don't usually actually call those DNF. But I wanted to mention that.

[KARLI] Those are those are NRN. Not right now.

[JAMIE] Oh, see, I'm learning.

[KARLI] Somebody posted about it on Twitter or something like that a little while back. And I really liked that idea. Because sometimes either it's, you don't have the energy for it, or you're not in the mood for it at that time. DNFing, and NRN are two different concepts, I think.

[JAMIE] All of my books that are all weird. It's like, yeah, I tried to start reading Alice in the Quantumverse, [Jamie said quantum verse but the actual title is Alice in Quantumland] [both laugh] but maybe my brain wasn't up for it. So I had to come back to it.

[KARLI] I don't know why you can't just casually read about the quantum verse and have a great time with that.

[JAMIE] It's an allegory for quantum physics! That's just light bedtime reading. [laughs]

[KARLI] Just casual stuff.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] I did think of one more thing.

[JAMIE] What's that?

[KARLI] That is if the subject matter ends up being triggering, for me. There's just certain things that if you didn't realize going in which—there’s usually trigger warnings out there for a lot of different stuff, especially stuff that's been around for a while, but I can't stand spoilers to the point where most of the time I don't even read the back of the book, before I decide if I want it—I look at the cover, look at the title, I'll read like the first couple of lines are the first page or whatever, or I go off of somebody's recommendation that I trust. But sometimes there's stuff in there that I'm like, oh, if I had read the back of the book, I probably would have known this and it probably wouldn't have picked it up to begin with. And you know, maybe I didn't maybe it's not on the back of the book. There's a couple that I DNF'd and after that are like that, that I'm just it's not for me, I understand why other people can read it, but I can't do it. So how far do you go in a book or a show before you decide if it's not doing it for you? Do you have um, I guess, like a feeling that pops up? Or thoughts that are popping up for you that that's when you recognize like, this isn't doing it for me.

[JAMIE] I would say that it could happen at any point. [both laugh] If it's something that from the start doesn't have me sometimes if it doesn't catch me, I’ll quit in the first twenty pages if it sort of catches me, but then I have to slog through… it can happen at any point. I think you just have to like feel it out and be like okay, do I want to give it till page one hundred? Do I want to whatever?

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And then on the opposite end, I've had books that I almost nearly finished and had fifty pages left and was like, I don't care what happens. And I just put the book down and I DNF it with fifty pages left.

[KARLI] I don't have that much self-control. [laughs]

[JAMIE] I just I, that's the biggest reason where I'm like, if I'm not invested in what's happening at the end of the story, why waste my time when I've got fifty other books on my shelf that I'm interested in?

[KARLI] See, I hear you speaking logic. [Jamie laughs] I hear it, I do. But my heart and my mind have yet to internalize it and make it a part of my life.

[JAMIE] I have a question.

[KARLI] I have an answer.

[JAMIE] What benefit are you getting from reading the last fifty pages of something you're not enjoying? How is that enriching your life?

[KARLI] It's not.

[JAMIE] That’s what I'm saying. [laughs]

[KARLI] [laughing] I know. I know, Jamie. But some of us don't make good choices for ourselves, okay?

[JAMIE] Hot take. Controversial. If I make it seventy-five to whatever percent through a book, even if I don't finish the last couple pages, on occasion, not all the time, I've counted that book is read anyway. Which I think is funny, because I know some people are like, you can't count it as read if you haven't read the whole thing. And I used to say that too. But reading goals are self-imposed. So you can pretty much do whatever you want with them. [laughs] I might count that book has read towards my reading goals, because I read 400 of the 430 pages or whatever. But I don't write reviews. I would never form an opinion and then iterate it to somebody else based on a book I hadn't read all of.

[KARLI] Yeah, unless it's the opinion that it didn't hold my interest, I marked it as DNF. And if they want to ask me more about it, I'm happy to have a conversation about it. But I'm not going to give unsolicited negative feedback on a book that I chose not to finish.

[JAMIE] Yeah, absolutely.

[KARLI] Sounds like you're very aware of when something isn't working for you and why. That you're able to say it's for this reason, and you choose to quit and it's not out of like vindictive or spite or anything like that. You're just like eh, I'm done.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I'm very, I'm not the kind of person that like, gets mad at the author. [Karli laughs] Because of my robot brain, I think about things very analytically, like 90% of the time. [chuckles] So I'm like, I just don't connect with this. There are tons of books, I'm sure I've DNF'd that lots of other people like and I'm happy that other people like them. It just wasn't for me. But yeah, usually I can say very specifically, why I chose to quit a book.

[KARLI] I struggle with that.

[JAMIE] You’re a vibes person. [chuckles]

[KARLI] I am a vibes person, my dragon brain hoards everything, even if it's not really worth it to me. [both laugh] It's been something that I have had to challenge myself to, to check in about how I'm feeling about things. I power through a lot of things. And I am learning in more recent years how to go, hey, why am I forcing myself to do this? Why am I powering through this thing? Is this serving to make me a better person, a better writer? I have had to learn how to do that. And DNFing more books has helped me with that, which I think has been a good exercise for me. So sometimes I do finish things because I like to see—I mean, sometimes it's good to have an example of how not to do it.

[JAMIE] I—there was a time where I knew you would finish any book you had started. [both laugh] No matter how trash. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] True. True true.

[JAMIE] Yeah. And that's why I think it's interesting everybody's process of why they would DNF something, or if they know why or whatever. All of us think differently. So like the way all of our synapses are connected, and then send our brain signals. It's all different. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah, we're all wired different. Okay, do you want to give us a couple of examples of some DNFs and maybe maybe a little, little while you've you DNF'd that thing?

[JAMIE] Yeah, I want to start by saying when I was trying to think about books, I had DNF'd, because my number one reason is I was bored. I couldn't even remember [Karli laughs] what books I've DNF'd because I clear the mental cache. [Karli laughs] If I ended up DNFing it, it's not really important for me to remember that book. If somebody put it in front of me, I'd be able to be like, yeah, I DNF'd that. But like to pull them out of my own memory. [chuckles] So all of the ones I have were fairly recent. [laughs]

[KARLI] Okay.

[JAMIE] But there have been, I'm sure hundreds. [laughs] The ones I'm going to list like I DNF'd them all for different reasons. I really like to read comedian [trying three different pronunciations, increasingly more dramatic] memoirs, memoirs, memoirs.

[KARLI] I say memoirs.

[JAMIE] It makes me think of, my grandparents had this jokes book from like, way back in the day. And I remember opening it up, and it's just it's just joke after joke after joke after joke. And I just that's what it made me think of.

[JAMIE] So I had seen on my Library app, I could get Is This Anything? by Jerry Seinfeld, which just came out in like, 2020. I'm not a huge Jerry Seinfeld fan. [chuckles] But I mean, comedy memoirs, I'm like, oh, and it's free. It's library book. And this was one of the ones that I didn't ask because it wasn't what I hoped. So I really like books talking about, like, how people got started and their breaks in the industry. And this was the weirdest comedy memoir I'd ever picked up. It was basically just all of his one liners over the last twenty years, put into a book one after the other. [Karli laughs] And I am not here for this. [laughs]

[KARLI] It makes me think of, my grandparents had this jokes book from like, way back in the day. And I remember opening it up, and it's just it's just joke after joke after joke after joke. And I just, that's what it made me think of.

[JAMIE] That's what it made me think of. [laughs] Yeah, I would have been more interested to hear like, the behind the scenes of industry stuff, of his career, like an actual memoir. [Karli laughs] But um... so I DNF'd that earlier this year.

[KARLI] Well, I think that that's a great example of something—it not being what you thought it was going to be. You went in thinking it was going to be what it was marketed as, and it's not. That happens sometimes.

[JAMIE] So that's—that was one of mine. Especially like, my some of my favorite comedy memoirs are like Mindy Kaling, Tiffany Haddish. Like, they both have really good, like memoirs, that was the kind of thing I was looking for, things I'd never heard, so anyway…

[KARLI] I have something that had my interest initially, and then it fell off at the end or towards the end-ish, I think. I didn't keep track of exactly which season I quit on. But Once Upon A Time, I really enjoyed the first few seasons, especially everything with Rumpelstiltskin. Obsessed.

[JAMIE] I actually do enough that show two but not like, super intentionally.

[KARLI] Well, I think that that's just it. I didn't super intentionally DNF it either. I wasn't like, well, this isn't working for me anymore. I just lost the motivation to go back to it. And I think that that is a symptom of them repeating kind of the same scenarios-ish, like, oh, the world is in jeopardy and we got to save it and over and over and over and over again, just like trying to bring in new characters. And it just kind of got, it got old.

[JAMIE] Played out.

[KARLI] Played out. Thank you. Like, I would have liked it to maintain my interest. But it didn't. I have gone back and rewatched the first couple of seasons, though, because I enjoyed them so much. So I enjoy what it was for the time that it was that thing. And I'm happy with that. But I choose not to participate [chuckling] in the later seasons. And that's just my opinion.

[JAMIE] I didn't even think about shows. Most of the shows I haven't finished I really want to finish [chuckling] I just don't have the time.

[KARLI] I think you're much more cinematically minded, you are able to tell pretty quickly, even just by the pilot, if it's going to be something that you're into. You don't often start things in—at least that I'm aware of—that you don't end up following through on because you are able to know what you're looking for in it. I don't know. That's just, that's just my take.

[JAMIE] I am good at like starting a show and then binging it to the end. [both chuckle] There’s two shows that I'm really interested in finishing that I started. But if they were on Netflix, I'd be done. But if they're on like any other sort of weird streaming, [Karli laughs] I'm very much Atomic Habits, make it easy. I want to finish Orphan Black and Fringe.

[KARLI] Yeah. Oh, yeah!

[JAMIE] Maybe this year, I'll try and finish those. But anyway, back to the topic.

[KARLI] Back to the actual topic. Stay on point. All right, any anything else that you'd like to share?

[JAMIE] Yeah, this one was interesting, Anxious People by Frederick Blackmon this one was kind of harder for me to DNF. I know a lot of people like his work and I'm still interested in trying another one of his books. I think I made it like 150 pages into this. And the parts that were captivating, were very captivating. But it was like two different tones mashed together. When these sections kind of stopped and they switched to this other side of the story, it was so dragged out. I'd push myself through the first couple sections, and then I'd get to another one of those really captivating sections. And then it would change again. And I was like, I can't do this for a whole book. I can't, I can't do this all the way through this book. [chuckles] So I ended up DNFing it. It was kind of sad, maybe a different one of his I'm definitely going to pick up his work again. But it was very much a pacing issue? I guess, like you said. The captivating sections were  [laughing] almost captivating enough to make me keep going. But not quite.

[KARLI] I love that you had an example of this too, because I have one that's incredibly popular. Ruin of Kings by Jen Lyons. Exact same problem. The captivating stuff was so cool, and so exciting. And I was like, holy crap. What? That is so awesome. But then it would switch and the pacing would drop and my momentum and I'm dragging. And I'm like, why are we here? Why is this important? It didn't feel important enough to be spending this much time on it. And the pacing swapped back and forth so much between the really fantastic and cool elements that were happening. I mean, like, really cool. And I've talked to a couple of people that felt similarly about it. So it's just interesting. The the compelling stuff was almost compelling enough to help me keep reading, but I made it like 50% in and I—like I—it had dragons and I DNF'd it. [Jamie chuckles] And I'm like, what is happening to my brain?

[JAMIE] I think that those are two good examples of where like, it's not that it was a bad book. It's not that the writer didn't do a good job. It's that the other side of that story didn't captivate me enough.

[KARLI] Personally.

[JAMIE] Personally, yeah.

[KARLI] Is not personally compelling enough to keep going.

[JAMIE] Obviously, I'm interested in that writer, because like, I loved a whole section of that. So I'm definitely going to keep picking up their stuff. One of those things, man.

[KARLI] This one is very popular. And so I'm sure I will not hurt his career by saying this because this is an opinion that I have seen other people have about it. But I DNF'd The Dresden Files. I started the first book, and I just couldn't do it. I even started listening to the audiobook, because I found out that James Marsters narrates it, and I love him. But even he couldn't make me stick with it. The elements didn't fit for me, it, it just didn't track. I kept being irritated. Like, why are we doing this? Why, why? And that is the only portion—that was the only shade throwing portion of this episode, folks. That's a choice.

[JAMIE] It just wasn't for me.

[KARLI] In today's internet era, where anonymous people can say whatever they want about anything, and trolling is a favorite pastime; it is very challenging to strike a balance between having a healthy conversation about what you didn't like about something, and just being vicious, for no reason. And I think it's important to be able to talk about the things that we didn't care for, without it being a direct reflection on the author themselves, or even that—

[JAMIE] Or the readers.

[KARLI] Or the readers that did enjoy it. I do my best to not judge other people for reading what they like. There are times where I think I have an innate like, reaction to certain things. But I choose to keep that to myself, and not put it on the internet. So that’s, that's a whole uh, deeper discussion that I don't want to like dive into too far. But since we are talking about some somewhat negative opinions about certain things, I think that that's important to touch on. It is art and art is subjective. Just gonna put that there and walk away. No matter your philosophy. Do what works for you. Jamie, do you have a recommendation for us this week?

[JAMIE] I do have my two cent recommendation. And that is, I recommend you quit that book that you've been wanting to quit. [Karli chuckles] Give yourself a gift, and just stop. Save yourself time and sanity and just let it go. It's fine. [stage whisper] Nothing bad's gonna happen to you because of it. [normal voice] Not because of that. I mean, something bad might happen to you, but I hope not! [Karli laughing] I’m just saying, my recommendation is DNF the books that you want to DNF. I get it I get people want to be able to count them and they don't want to be quitters. But I mean, be a quitter. It's kind of fun. [Karli laughs] And that is my two cent recommendation this week.

[KARLI] I love it. Thanks. All right. Thanks for listening, folks. Follow or subscribe so you're notified of new episodes. You can find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast and Twitter @theactbreak_. Head to the links in our Instagram. Those links will take you to our website, scifiohmy.com/podcast. While you're on the website, sign up for The Breakdown newsletter for more recommendations and updates on what we're doing. If you're so inclined, please leave us a review. Catch you next week, folks.

[JAMIE] Talk to you later, internet friends.

Success Vs Fame - Transcript

[KARLI] This episode brought to you by coffee.

[JAMIE] Coffee is our biggest sponsor, all of our energy comes from coffee. The sound that occasionally comes from your audio makes me feel like you went to a field of cicadas.

[KARLI] Yes, I was gonna say, insects everywhere. I mean, I like bugs, but not that much. I don't want them with me everywhere I go.

[JAMIE] I like what bugs do, [Karli chuckles] but I prefer them not to be near me. Literally last night, I was sitting on the couch and I saw a spider slowly dropping down—not that slowly actually [both laugh]—dropping down from the ceiling and it landed on my coffee table. And I'm not gonna lie. I choked. And there's been so many times like I will just straight squish a spider with my bare hand. But for some reason I was looking for something to squish it, and everything I looked at was something you do not want to slam. [both chuckle] And that sucker was fast and he was gone and he is still out there today. [Karli laughs] And I have not stopped thinking about him. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] He's with you in your thoughts, always.

[JAMIE] Yeah, the hub's was like, what just happened? Are you okay? Like he saw I was like, Yeah, I didn't I don't know what I don't know what I was doing. I choked. [laughing] There’s nothing else to say.

[KARLI] So really, what I've done is I have gone out into the field and searched for cicadas and I have them in my office.

[JAMIE] You released them.

[KARLI] Just to screw with you.

[JAMIE] That's a level of dedication. It’s just an epic amount of pranking.

[KARLI] See ya, see you really like to commit to your bits I really like to commit to my pranks.

[JAMIE] [laughing] She’s a regular Winston.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Why is this the only day he hasn't been two minutes early? [laughs]

[KARLI] Well technically he could be two minutes early still it is 10:57. So he has one minute left to be two minutes early.

[JAMIE] I'm gonna be so disappointed… Are you recording your audio yet? Because we shouldn't be funny until—oh boy.

[JAMIE AND KARLI LAUGH]

[A.P.] Welcome to The Act Break Podcast.

[JAMIE] Perfect. Comedy gold. What's behind me is literally a mattress and then to the side I have the boxspring to like absorb the noise but A.P.’s level of commitment is—is next level.

[A.P.] It's kind of warm in these uh, rhinos.

[JAMIE] It's, it's kind of making me uncomfortable.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] What is A.P. doing under his blanket? We don't want to know.

[JAMIE] He's still looking for the mouse he's not recording yet.

[A.P.] I better sound f*@%ing amazing.

[JAMIE] You do.

[KARLI] You do actually.

[A.P.] Welcome to my ASMR channel.

[KARLI] Are you recording yet?

[A.P.] Yes, I've been recording. I record everything I do for posterity sake. [Jamie and Karli laugh] I wish I could see you guys.

[JAMIE] You don't have to stay in there.

[KARLI] Get out of there. We want to see your face.

[A.P.] It's very warm. [laughs]

[JAMIE] I was gonna say it's gonna get real hot real fast.

[KARLI] A.P.'s gonna pass out because he has no oxygen.

[JAMIE] It does sound nice. [Karli laughs] But maybe—

[A.P.] I put a towel down. You know? [stage whisper] Cause I get sweaty when I talk about writing. [normal voice] I get excited.

[JAMIE] And now I have to click explicit on this episode. We're slightly changing the structure

[KARLI] And apologies for not warning you that in advance.

[JAMIE] I don't apologize. I retract Karli's apology. [A.P. and Karli laugh]

[A.P.] All right. I'm ready for our topic on medieval infrastructure.

[JAMIE] I'm sorry, I prepared for 19th century waterways.

[A.P.] Damn.

[KARLI] You all are the worst. This episode is about dragons. [A.P. and Jamie chuckle] Come on. Get it together.

[A.P.] I'm sorry. I'm here to record a podcast episode. Could we please take this seriously?

[JAMIE] You came to the wrong podcast, my friend. [A.P. and Karli laugh]

[KARLI] Welcome back to The Act Break where today we're putting the internet friends and other stuff into The Act Break. I'm Karli. My goal in life is to be infamous over famous and success is a young gun's game.

[JAMIE] I'm Jamie. I'm a science fiction, fantasy, and speculative fiction writer. I'm incredibly successful, just not professionally.

[KARLI] Today's internet friend, some of you will recognize. He is a short fiction, speculative fiction writer, coffee lover. Welcome back, A.P.

[A.P.] Thank you.

[KARLI] And then today's other stuff is talking about success and fame. What are they? What do they mean to us? What could they mean to anybody? Here we are. Are you guys excited?

[A.P.] Very excited. Thanks for having me.

[JAMIE] Uh, I'm a little lukewarm. [A.P. chuckles] We’re real rusty A.P., if you can't tell, I mean, I guess this isn't that different than what you would have experienced in the past?

[A.P.] It all seems pretty normal.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I—maybe I just keep on telling myself that because I hope it gets better.

[KARLI] Okay, all right. All right. On topic. Are we ready? Ready? Are we ready for this? So when we are discussing this topic, I feel like there's a lot of conversation about this, really. Success versus fame. What do we mean, when we talk about success. For you, what does what does success mean?

[A.P.] I actually wanted to start with fame? Because I feel like that one's a little easier to tackle.

[KARLI] Do it.

[A.P.] Mostly because I have a lot of shit to say about fame. Because it's kind of like nebulous and doesn't mean much. It's like a… it's like a fake thing. Like, oh, I want to be famous. Like, what does that even mean? Like? How do you, how do you quantify fame? You know?

[KARLI] Yeah, famous for what?

[JAMIE] Yeah, can I? I like dictionaries and Wikipedia. [A.P. and Karli laugh]

[KARLI] See, I don't write down definitions of anything. Because I know Jamie will do it.

[JAMIE] I'm just saying it's being known or talked about by many people, originally, on account of an achievement or a talent. And I feel that is no longer a requirement.

[KARLI] That's no longer the case.

[A.P.] Yeah. But also like, what is many people?

[JAMIE] I feel like that's also changed with the times.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. With the advent of social media, it has adjusted the meeting—the meaning of fame.

[A.P.] Yeah. So that's why like, fame is just like, I don't know, that's such a weird thing to like... To like, want to be like, oh, I want to be famous. Like, that's not concrete enough for me. Like, that doesn't tell me anything about you, or what you want, or what that means to you. It's, it's like, it almost feels like bad 80s movie writing, you know?

[KARLI] Yeah. [Jamie and Karli chuckle] Well, and it feels so like you said, it's nebulous. It's technically out of your control whether or not you become famous.

[A.P.] That's also true.

[KARLI] Because you can you all the same people out there doing all the same things, and one gets viral views and the other one doesn't, and why? You know, something hit at the right time, they said just the right thing we did just the right or wrong or dumb thing or whatever. How—you can't go I'm going to be famous. Here are some actionable steps to become that way.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] This made me think of, which—I haven't watched the whole show is only recently became available on Netflix—it's Bo Burnham's show from way back in the day, and it's called Zach Stone Is Gonna Be Famous. And the whole premise is that he is somebody who has no art, nothing to offer the world. All he wants is to get famous.

[A.P.] If you're viral or you're famous like that, I feel like that's just like a blip. Like you have to like capitalize on something or like do something with it. Otherwise, it just doesn't like, you're talked about for a little bit. And then you're gone. That's such an underwhelming thing to want. For me.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it ties together with the control. You don't have any control over that. There's no way to like set a goal. If you're not, if you're just trying to be famous for anything.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah, well and fame is fickle, it's subject to the whims of the masses. So even if you are really good at a thing that you become famous for, who's saying that you won't be famous for it tomorrow… or you will still be famous for tomorrow, however you want to format that sentence. [all chuckle] Choose your own sentence structure. Clearly, we all see pretty—we're pretty eye to eye, on the on the fame of it all.

[A.P.] Yeah. And again, I want to be clear that I'm not trying to like, this is my own viewpoint for fame for myself. Like I think people can probably be famous and want to be famous and make it work for them. And it's fine. But like, I personally don't get it. I don't think it works for me. I don't think it's something that I—it's certainly not something that I think about it's not something that I you know, plan my life around or plan goals around. Because like you said, how can you?

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] One of the reasons why like I always think about like the fame versus success is because when I first started telling people like, oh, I'm a writer, I had a lot of people say, "Oh, well, I hope that you can be a famous writer someday." And I'm like ehhh. [A.P. chuckles] I don't say to them, but I'm like, I'm not too worried about being a famous author. I just would like to be a successful author.

[KARLI] Thanks for the sentiment, but no thanks. [Jamie and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's very much like what does that mean?

[KARLI] Yeah, well, I think famous But one of the things that really stuck out to me with the idea is what do—what are people setting out for when they want to be famous? And what I think people really want is recognition. And then what they end up getting instead is attention. And it's not the same thing. So, you know, to segue, Jamie tried to segue it and I pulled it back. [A.P. and Jamie chuckle] Success. Good, good call. And starting with fame there, A.P. Now we can move into, what is—what is success... mean? At least to us? And and what do we feel like, how do we feel like that differs from fame? I feel like it's going to be pretty apparent when we define success, but...

[A.P.] Well, do we have a definition? Do you wanna hit us with that?

[KARLI] Do we! [A.P. and Karli chuckle]

[JAMIE] I do happen to have a definition for success and accomplishment of any aim, goal or purpose. And like way back, it used to, like success could mean a good or bad outcome. It was like, but now it's, it's more of like good outcomes like success rate.

[A.P.] What is a bad success?

[KARLI] Can you elaborate on that?

[JAMIE] Let's see, I wrote it down.

[A.P.] I was successfully shot in the face. [Karli wheeze laughs]

[JAMIE] Well, they had poor success.

[A.P.] Oh, okay.

[KARLI] I see. I see. That tracks.

[A.P.] Alright, that makes sense.

[KARLI] We don't say that anymore.

[JAMIE] Yeah, we don't, we don't use it the same way.

[A.P.] I wish you poor success in your ventures. [Jamie and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE] [mock British accent] I did wish them success, but it was of the poor variety. [all laugh] [normal voice] So achievement of an aim goal or purpose.

[A.P.] And I think we were kind of like kidding on this. Like, obviously, it's stuff that's in your control. It's like tangible, quantifiable things. It's like the intro question is like, do you want to be famous? Yes. Okay. And so what does fame mean to you? And that's when you start talking about success. So if it's in the literature world, it's like, oh, it's x many books sold. Or if my book gets made into a movie, or if I win a Hugo. Or if—things that you can actually check off a list.

[JAMIE] Yeah, like fame, oh, a whole bunch of people know me, it's kind of the same thing. Whereas success can look different to every different person. You get to set up your own goals and decide what success is.

[A.P.] And I think it also implies like, it's something like continuous, it's something you keep working towards, like you hit a milestone and you keep moving forward. It's like, it evolves.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Yeah. I have a—were it’s like, you can have multiple goals in different avenues. And then you can have push goals. When you reach those goals. You set new ones.

[A.P.] Life is a Kickstarter. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] I like that. Yeah. I think, you know, with fame, it's, it's notoriety. And with success, it's more of like a lifestyle. You're building this life for yourself. That, you know, some people as a byproduct of success become famous.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] But not necessarily.

[A.P.] And while you were just saying that, I was thinking that, like, I don't think it's necessarily always the case, but I think success is maybe like inwards too. It's not just like, oh, how much attention am I getting to be famous? It's like, oh, what have I accomplished that I can be proud of? Or like, I'm looking at myself, how have I grown?

[KARLI] That's how I see success. I think it's a personal satisfaction of tangible, achievable things for yourself.

[A.P.] I just had a thought come to me like fame is what my mom wants for me. Success is what I keep trying to convince her I'm doing.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Oh, I love that. That's good. Defining. I mean, the difference is pretty clear. I think, between the two, when you're examining it for yourself, how do you... How do you figure out what your personal goals are in order to get you to that point of, I feel like I'm successful?

[A.P.] Ooo, that's a different way of asking. Because, like, do I feel successful? [Karli laughs] Or have I achieved successes, you know? [laughs]

[KARLI] Either. Both. It's—it is interesting to think about it like that.

[A.P.] I think feeling successful is going to be really hard to achieve. But let's not, let's not get into like mental health issues.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Just touch on it there. We're gonna leave it and move on.

[A.P.] Yeah. If you know, if I'm making a list of goals that I have, and I'm achieving them, and then I'm successful in those goals, then that's great. That's me succeeding in the things I'm setting out to do. And all those things are hopefully building towards something.

[KARLI] Yeah. Um, Jamie, do you have a thought there?

[JAMIE] That was just reminded me of my intro where I'm like, I feel very successful in life but not as much professionally. Because, like, it's that same thing where you're like, Well, yeah, if I'm setting these goals, and I'm hitting these goals, that's an accomplishment. Does that make me feel successful? Not necessarily. And I think that that's maybe where like, you dip your toe into the quote unquote, fame, or the more—less fame, more recognition. Sometimes a little bit of recognition can give that sense of success. And I do agree, like you guys said, it's more of an inward thing. Like you have to decide like, I do feel successful. But it’s a little bit of an outward thing too. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[A.P.] Yeah, it is nice to get recognition. You're right.

[JAMIE] I can't help it. I just...

[A.P.] I know, we're not supposed to need like outside validation. But damn does it feel good.

[KARLI] It does.

[JAMIE] Right. I feel like, you don't only need it. But as artists, like we need some. We need some outside recognition. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. We don't enjoy creating in a vacuum.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Because we need those little bits of success to kind of give us the endorphins to keep going.

[KARLI] Yeah. Well, and I think it's a great uh… I don't know, how do you call it like, it's, it's like a test of am I doing what I think I'm doing? Am I, you know, is my writing style, what I actually think it is, are people—like, what do people see when they see my art? And am I actually doing that? Or am I doing something totally different that I wasn't even thinking about? And then, am I okay with that? Is that something I want to keep doing? Or do I need to recalibrate?

[A.P.] That's a good point. It's like, I'm doing all these things. I'm the shit. And then it's like, wow, your writing is terrible. [Karli and Jamie laugh] You’re like, Oh, I should adjust.

[KARLI] [chuckling] I didn't even mean it from the perspective of whether it's good or bad, but I even mean, like, if you think that you're writing horror, and really, you're writing like satire, then you know, you're like, okay, well, maybe, maybe I'm off by a wide margin. [all chuckle] So with that, I guess, you know, we're talking a lot about for our—for ourselves, which is great. But I'm curious, because how do we come about defining success for ourself? If we don't already have there has to be some sort of a um, is litmus test the right, right word here, where we we look at other people that we think are successful. So how do we, how do we compare it in our own minds for ourselves? Does that make sense?

[A.P.] Yeah, I'm glad you brought up other people. Because I think comparison is just horrible. Comparing your own achievements, and goals and all that, like, I mean, you can't exist in a vacuum, like you said, but you're on your own journey. You can't, you're in competition with yourself, not anyone else.

[JAMIE] Yeah, there's a saying it's, "Comparison is the thief of joy."

[A.P.] There you go. Yeah.

[JAMIE] And it's very true, because it's like you—everybody comes from a different background, a different experience. They've gotten different opportunities. So it's like comparing apples to a Ferrari. Like, there's just too much, too many factors, to compare one's journey to anyone else's.

[KARLI] True. And I definitely am glad that we did touch on that. But I think the question I'm trying to ask is, how do you come up with what success means to you without looking at other people? Because I mean, we obviously all have our own inspirations where we're like, I want to be a writer. Well, why? Because we read books that we loved, that we're like, I want to do that thing. And so we look at somebody and we go, when you pointed that, and then you can say, I think they're a successful writer. And obviously, it's subjective. But if we didn't have that to start as like a launching off point, we couldn't come up with our idea of success if we couldn't look at something and say that's successful, and that's not. Does that make sense?

[A.P.] Yeah, that's interesting, because...

[KARLI] Or am I going way out in the weeds here? [A.P. and Karli laugh] I tend to do that.

[A.P.] As you're asking this question. I'm like thinking about my own goals and successes. And I don't think I can point to one person or like, specific people, I have, like, general, more nebulous things that I'm like, yeah, that's what I want for success. But it's not like I'm like, oh, I want to be Joe Abercrombie. Like I don't know anything about—I mean, obviously, I think he sells a lot of books and is able to do that full time, and that's a good thing. But it's not like I'm like, I want to be Joe Abercrombie. Or I want to do X, Y, Z that this other person is doing.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I understand like where you're coming from, but I don't understand the question.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I don't—I don't know that I understand the question, Jamie You should know me well enough by now.

[JAMIE] Well, then I don't have any answer. [A.P. and Jamie laugh]

[KARLI]  That's fair. That's fair. I just wanted to pose some, some—I don't know.

[JAMIE] You bring up a lot of good things.

[KARLI] Philosophically.

[A.P.] Yeah, I mean, I sort of get the question and I'm trying to think about it. I just think that I, that's not how I came to my list of things that I want to accomplish. It's—yeah, I don't know. I think it's like the greater science fiction and fantasy publishing worlds gave me ideas of what I wanted. But not specific people.

[KARLI] Yeah. For me, I think I did start there. Just being like, I want to be that like, that's, that's what I want. And then—

[A.P.] Who? Who do want?

[KARLI] At first, it was George RR Martin. I'm like, that. That's, that's what I want. But then, as I matured as a writer, and actually understood what this looks like, for me, I think it ends up being more of a conglomeration of like, oh, I like this part about that writer. And I like what they're doing here and that there and um, it was either actually it was George RR Martin, or Neil Gaiman. I want to just merge them. That's what I wanted to be. So the more time goes on, though, I am, you know, I'm also reading new books and gaining new perspective, and seeing that there's a much wider world out there than just those two dudes. And learning how to define success for myself has become more of a just picking and choosing and merging ideas. And it’s—it is, it's way more nebulous than just I want to be that one thing.

[A.P.] Well, would you say that as your definition of success, and what you want for yourself has grown, and you've moved away from just the whole Gaiman Martin thing... Do either of you feel like success might mean—I'm only asking this because I feel like it's a pretty common answer. But does success mean to you that you are writing full time and that is supporting you financially?

[JAMIE] No.

[A.P.] Okay. [A.P. and Jamie chuckle]

[KARLI] Do you want to elaborate?

[JAMIE] I'm thinking. [all laugh] I’m thinking of not if I want to elaborate, but like, how on earth would I elaborate? You mean, I should have thought about what success is?

[A.P.] Yeah. What is—yeah, you know. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Personally before I got here today?

[KARLI] In your prep work? Do you want me to go?

[JAMIE] Yeah, you go. [A.P. laughs]

[KARLI] Okay. My answer, in essence, at the root of it is the same. No, I don't believe that anymore. For myself, success means when I do produce a book, my target audience has a good time when they're reading it. I'm actually—even if that target audience ends up being a lot smaller than I originally wanted. If they are enjoying what I'm producing, then—and I'm enjoying what I'm producing, that's success to me.

[A.P.] How would you measure that?

[JAMIE] You would never know.

[LAUGHTER]

[A.P.] Just, you know, like, I want, I'm just trying to imagine. At what point would you be like, I've done it? Like, what would that look like to you?

[KARLI] I without going into the mental health of it all, I’m not really sure. You know, I can't time travel, weirdly enough, I've tried. I am definitely one of those people that, I can't help it. I do want to be, I want to hit that stupid New York Times Best Selling list. I want to be that person whose book is made into a movie. Those are things that I want. And obviously I think if I get those, will I still feel like I've not accomplished enough? Probably. But that goes into the mental health of it all.

[A.P.] Sure yeah.

[KARLI] So. But ultimately, I don't believe that I need those things in order for future me to say, hey, I'm doing it, I'm doing the thing and I'm having a good time. What that actually will be for me, I can't say. I'd like to hope that if I'm just producing books consistently, where I don't feel burnt out, and I feel like I'm enjoying myself still, that that will be the moment that I go, I've done it. But I can't guarantee that.

[A.P.] Yeah, I'm just like... As I was thinking about this before the podcast, I was trying to like imagine the moment where I'm like, I am now successful and like what has just happened. What is like, what does my life look like? And that's why I was saying like, when I'm saying, when I was envisioning this moment for myself, I was like, okay, I am, you know, in some house somewhere and I don't have a day job and all I do is write and that's like, like I'm a writer. Like if I ever find myself living that life—mental health aside, of course [all chuckle]—that is when I think that I will feel successful.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Now that I've had time to think about. [A.P. and Karli chuckle] So I have no idea what Karli just said. [all laugh] No, I'm just kidding, I was listening. I was thinking about my own thing the whole time.

[KARLI] Repeat it all, I wasn't listening.

[JAMIE] No, I was thinking that success is going to be a very fleeting feeling that you get in—that I get in small bursts. Because when I imagine what success is, some of this is subject to change. But in my head, it's that I can be producing stories on a regular basis, like a book a year. And the success part would come when I'm published, and then the next year or the next book, people still want that. [A.P. and Karli chuckle] Like, I'm like, people continually come back. If I can be consistent, and then people want me to be consistent.

[A.P.] Okay.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I want to be constantly in demand, not like a huge demand. [A.P. chuckles] Because, I mean, I don't want a lot of pressure. But it's that just like…

[KARLI] Just enough pressure.

[JAMIE] The idea of selling a book to a publisher, will give you that like little hit of success. And then success is holding a reader's attention enough that they want to buy your next book.

[A.P.] Do you think that you'll get to the second book, and then you'll be like, maybe those two were just a fluke?

[JAMIE] Yeah, I'm sure I will. Because it's like people with impostor syndrome.

[A.P.] Yeah. [laughs]

[JAMIE] It's like, I just have to keep going get those tiny bits of success, like little dopamine hits throughout my life. [laughs]

[A.P.] The more we get into this, the more I think this is all just, you know, like us chasing a drug. And it's always gonna be horrible.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] One hundred percent. And I was thinking the same thing.

[JAMIE] Gotta get that stream of dopamine.

[KARLI] Yeah, it's, it's what you were saying, Jamie, also, the subject to change. All of this is a subject to change. Because one, the industry is changing, and it's always going to be changing, and what the future looks like—which we'll touch on in a minute, with like, the social pressure because of social media mainly, and expectations for ourselves—our lives change. You know, what we want for ourselves now... I mean, think of yourself five years ago, what did you want for yourself? Then how—it like it's evolved from even then like, it's just, it's always subject to change. So what we say now may not be what we think six months from now, let alone six years in the future.

[A.P.] Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it's not just, things change outside of us. But also, like we don't, at least I don't feel like I know, the publishing industry 100%. So like, as I learn more about it, things will probably change too.

[A.P.] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] I don't even I don't even know what I don't know about publishing.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] But isn't that isn't that just the state of life? We don't know what we don't know. And we keep learning and trying and showing up and—

[A.P.] Like fools!

[JAMIE] Suckas! [A.P. chuckles]

[KARLI] Like absolute fools. That's a good thing that dopamine is so good. [A.P. and Karli laugh] The only thing that keeps us coming back.

[A.P.] Yeah, I need the good brain juices.

[JAMIE] So I think the social pressure is like a good thing to bring up when you're talking about fame and success at the same time. Because I think with the advent of the internet, that some people get these things confused. And luckily, we already talked about it, like it's pretty clear to us the difference. But some of those things become intertwined when it comes to social media and, and pressure from without, because sometimes having fame can help you on your way to success. Because so many times we're—there's follower counts and views, and once you have a higher follower count, maybe you'll be more likely to get picked up by whatever agent by whatever publisher.

[KARLI] Or sell more copies.

[A.P.] Yeah, it doesn't hurt.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It doesn't hurt and there's nothing wrong with anybody who has those things. That's awesome. But they're not mutually exclusive. And that's why I think it's important to make sure like what your, your goal is in your—what you're shooting for is something you want and not something you've been told you want.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] As far as like follower count, Big Five publishing, like all those things. Of course, I'd love to have some Big Five publishing I'm just—if anybody's listening to this in the industry... Don't—don't get me wrong. [all chuckle] DM me. It's important to have a perspective, just because everybody I see once these things doesn't necessarily mean that I have to structure my whole life around, how do I get these things?

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah. I mean, if you want those things and the pursuit of those things isn't destroying you, [Jamie laughs] then have at it.

[A.P.] That's a that's a good point you made, Jamie. Because I think that quantifies a little bit of the fame. Because I think, if you are seeking fame, you probably can point to like, oh, I've got, you know, X amount of followers or, or whatever. I don't think that's like a perfect metric. But it is at least a metric that I hadn't really considered. And, you know, at least as I was starting out in this, I always heard like, oh, you know, you want to have an author platform. And like, the importance of that stuff kind of like waxes and wanes for me a little bit. There's definitely been times where I'm, like, really into it. I'm like, alright, let's, you know, I'm gonna post several times a week, and I'm gonna, like, try and build followers and blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know how much, you know, like, what kind of returns I'm really getting from that kind of stuff. Other than, again, [chuckles] dopamine hits for notifications, [all laugh] which, you know, sometimes are fine, too. But when it comes to like, selling something, or like converting to book sales, I don't know how much of that it actually does.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's like it. While it doesn't hurt, it doesn't often translate right over. There's been times where I look up some of my personal favorite authors, and they don't have huge followings. Granted, a lot of them are older. [chuckles] So that may be a part of it.

[A.P.] Yeah. But like, I mean, look at Neil Gaiman, or like VE Schwab, like they are definitely, there, doing stuff on social media. So it's like, yeah, you can definitely do that. And it can be a boon. I just don't know how much of a boon it is.

[KARLI] Right. But I don't know, I'm always interested by this conversation. Because, you know, while we talk a lot about like, [chuckles] the evils of social media and stuff like that, because we're who we are. You know, we met via social media. Yeah. You know, we wouldn't know you, A.P., without social media,

[A.P.] You're right, delete social media. Get rid of it forever. This has been terrible thing.

[JAMIE] That's all, folks. [A.P. laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, pretty much. So that's case and point [A.P. laughs] and the conversation's over, so thanks for joining us today. And—

[A.P.] No, you're right.

[KARLI] So it's interesting, because you know, if you're not there, if you're not on the internet is is kind of unnecessary evil at this point in our lives. If you're not there, how do people find you? How are you—how do you get your work promoted, you know?

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And I definitely believe in like having a social media presence, having a platform where if somebody finds something from you and is interested has an opportunity or a place to reach out. That’s absolutely important. As long as it doesn't—I just don't want it to rule you.

[KARLI] I've heard you say before, Jamie, something to the effect of that, you know, if you're spending so much time on social media, creating content, then that's time... You know, we only have a certain number of hours in the day, and if you're spending all of this time over here, but you're not actually creating the art that you're trying to get recognized for, then you creating this platform isn't actually helping you. And how do you strike that balance?

[JAMIE] I did say that. I am quite clever. [A.P. and Jamie chuckle]

[KARLI] You're really smart sometimes.

[JAMIE] Insufferable all the time. [A.P. chuckles]

[KARLI] Yes, that.

[A.P.] I think that's a short term hit of feeling successful, that maybe we can circle back to you because like, you create quote, unquote, content and be posted and you get reactions and notifications and it's like immediate feedback of like, oh, I'm doing something, I've accomplished something, and people are engaging with it. So it's like yeah, I want that. I want that all the time. [Jamie chuckles] Then you're like, I'm not writing at all.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Therein lies the problem.

[KARLI] Exactly.

[JAMIE] Well, my my assistants giving me the wrap it up sign. when you move to the next—

[A.P.] [chuckling] Your assistant? What the hell?

[JAMIE] [laughing] It’s my alter ego.

[KARLI] Yeah, her alter ego.

[JAMIE AND KARLI] James.

[A.P.] It's just like a mirror and you do like a Gollum thing. You just like scream at yourself. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Wrap it up.

[KARLI] It is. It's terrifying. I real quick, just wanted to drop this little, this little nugget. I read a very interesting article in the um, thank you. The New Yorker. [A.P. and Karli laugh] I thanked my notes just now. It was an interesting thing that I feel like contributes to this conversation. So if you wanted to go look at the New Yorker article, it's called, "On the Internet, We're Always Famous." And I just, I found it to be an interesting perspective.

[A.P.] So what's the TLDR?

[KARLI] I don't know what TLDR means. I'm so sorry.

[A.P.] Too long, didn't read.

[KARLI] Oh. Um, talking about social media and kind of what it's—how it's adjusted our perspective, I think on success and fame and, and our uh, our idea of recognition.

[JAMIE] So it's an article all about what this episode is all about. [A.P. chuckles]

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] It's not all about it. I feel like I kind of took it this way so maybe somebody else reading it wouldn't, wouldn't exactly take it this way if they weren't thinking about it in that perspective, but that I, I read it while preparing for this. So that's, that was my takeaway. But there's one quote in particular in there that he was talking about there as in you know, they the general world. "Their attention renders us tiny gods." And the idea of, you know, we're always talking about the dopamine hits of getting all of the likes and followers and all of that stuff. So I just, it's interesting. You just if you want, go read it. Um A.P., did you prepare a recommendation for us?

[A.P.] I do have two pennies in my pocket that I want to get rid of. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Excellent. Good. We'll take them.

[A.P.] Do you have an intro to the segment?

[JAMIE] This week? We're gonna have A.P. give his two cent recommendation.

[A.P.] Is there music?

[Jamie makes a snappy tune with her mouth]

[LAUGHTER]

[A.P.] I expect that every time now on every episode.

[JAMIE] I don't kowtow to guests. Okay, this, just go.

[A.P.] Just go. So, keeping on topic a little bit, what I've found to be successful is tracking as much as possible. So I actually like writing down things, keeping track of every submission I've done, doing like email folders, because nothing shows upward trends, like concrete data. I actually wrote that down. Don't trust feelings. Because feelings are broken. Because our brains are dumb. [all laugh] If you look at numbers, you're like, oh, okay, I am doing better than I was last year. I have sent out more stories this year than last year. Tracking things like word count and stuff like that. And yeah, like that's annoying. And it's like extra work you have to do but when it's staring you in the face, it's hard to be like, [mocking voice] “ehhh I don't feel really successful about—you're doing the things." [normal voice] This is me talking to myself every day.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and there's a lot of things you can look into out there. Like, Karli's favorite thing is spreadsheets. [Karli laughs] I like spreadsheets.

[A.P.] [dramatic whisper] I love spreadsheets.

[JAMIE] To keep track of submissions especially.

[KARLI] Don't get sweaty, A.P.

[JAMIE] Spreadsheets or query tracker.

[A.P.] Yeah, there's query tracker. Submission Grindr is for short stories, and that tracks all your stuff. But yeah, spreadsheets are great. I love spreadsheets.

[KARLI] Spreadsheets are awful. [A.P. chuckles] But what do you recommend to be able to keep track of all of your stuff? Do you use spreadsheets?

[A.P.] I use spreadsheets. I use... I am an absolute lunatic with spreadsheets. [Jamie laughs] I have like a yearly one...

[KARLI] Gross.

[A.P.] With different tabs and it's got fonts and...

[JAMIE] Now I'm getting sweaty.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] You guys are terrible.

[JAMIE] Organization nerds.

[KARLI] I need to find something that works for me, for that, because I agree with you, A.P. Feelings are broken. Our brains are dumb. I don't trust any of that. But I do exist solely on that currently, because I hate spreadsheets. And I need to find a different way to track my own metrics.

[A.P.] Do you like, sort of related to this to like, track your wins? Your quote unquote, wins, in any way?

[KARLI] What wins? [A.P. chuckles]

[A.P.] Okay.

[JAMIE] Do you track anything, Karli?

[KARLI] No. [A.P. and Jamie laugh]

[JAMIE] There you go. There's your answer, A.P.

[A.P.] Okay, alright.

[KARLI] That's what I'm saying. That's exactly what I'm saying is I recognize that that would be really good for me. But somebody says spreadsheet, and I want to die.

[A.P.] So try this. This might work for you. Do you have a mason jar around the house?

[KARLI] Yes.

[A.P.] Do you have colorful post it notes? Or slips of paper?

[KARLI] Yes.

[A.P.] Anytime something even mildly positive happens in relation to your writing career, write it on a piece of paper and put it in the jar.

[KARLI] I like that.

[A.P.] And then when you feel like a piece of shit, you reach in and you read something.

[KARLI] Great. So daily. Awesome.

[A.P.] Every hour, on the hour.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I need my hourly affirmations, okay?

[A.P.] Yeah, yeah. You know, we forget the—I feel like I forget the good things a lot. Like I either like, discount them or I don't believe them or something and they just like disappear. Whereas the bad things I'm like, yes. I look forward to this haunting me for seventeen more months. [Jamie and Karli chuckle]

[KARLI] Yep. Absolutely. Okay. Well, thank you, A.P. Very much.

[A.P.] You're very welcome.

[KARLI] For all of your, all of your perspective, and joining—joining us in our madness.

[A.P.] Well, thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure.

[KARLI] You can find A.P. Thayer on social media, Instagram and Twitter @apthayer. You can also find him on his website at apthayer.com. And he has links for you to read his fiction, which you absolutely should do that. He's fantastic.

[A.P.] Oh, thank you.

[KARLI] Welcome.

[JAMIE] He's okay.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Jamie!

[JAMIE] Oh, sorry.

[KARLI] We want him to come back.

[KARLI] Success for me means Jamie thinks my writing is better than okay.

[JAMIE] You're so close. Just keep keep pressing on. [A.P. chuckles]

[KARLI] Listen, I told you about the fickle masses, okay?

[JAMIE] I'm the worst.

[KARLI] All right. Well, thank you for listening to our shenanigans. You can find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast on Twitter at the ACT break...

[JAMIE] Underscore, no podcast. [laughs]

[KARLI] Is that really what it is?

[JAMIE] Yeah. It's @theactbreak_

[KARLI] Oh my god. Okay.

[A.P.] Please support the podcast so they can afford to add podcast to the end of their name on Twitter.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] We ran out of money.

[KARLI] You can also find us via scifiohmy.com. Click on podcast. I looked down at my notes and it says newsletter and I just—my notes are no longer helpful. I'm not thanking them this time.

[JAMIE] I mean, if you're there, sign up for my newsletter.

[KARLI] You can sign up for Jamie's newsletter, podcast newsletter. It's a good place. You can also find links to episode transcripts. While you're on your current podcast platform of choice you might as well you know, like it, review it, subscribe it, hit the bell, do all the things, you know?

[A.P.] Smash that like button.

[KARLI] Smash it.

[A.P.] Smash it with a hammer.

[JAMIE] [laughing] We need to we need to fine tune our call to action. It's half the podcast.

[LAUGHTER]

[A.P.] Season two baby, let's go! [laughs]

[JAMIE] Killin' it!

[KARLI] Yeah!

Cult Classics - Transcript

[JAMIE] I feel like this episode is really gonna give my nerdy upbringing a chance to shine. [laughs]

[KARLI] It is. This is a good spotlight for you.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's really gonna like, highlight my family's peculiarities. I remember, when I would have friends come over, they'd walk into our house and we had like a wall of action figures and nerd paraphernalia from like Star Wars, Star Trek, like all on the wall. And they were like, who? Whose stuff is this? And we're like, that's my dad’s. [laughs] Those are my dad's toys. We're not allowed to touch them.

[KARLI] I remember coming to your house and thinking it was super rad that your dad was into all of that stuff. I was like, this is like living, like this is your living space. And there's just nerdy stuff everywhere.

[JAMIE] His office looks the same today. He's the main source of my uh, my nerd.

[KARLI] That's pretty great. It's pretty great.

[JAMIE] My well of nerd runs deep.

[KARLI] Yeah. Deep and wide.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Welcome back, everybody. We know you have a choice when it comes to podcasts. And we thank you for choosing The Act Break. There are hundreds of podcasts packed with famous, interesting people, experts and talented professionals. So the fact that you were here with us has us grateful humbled and a little bit worried for you. [Karli laughs] But you're here now, we must move forward. I'm Jamie, a storytelling fiction enthusiast. And this is my co-host, Karli. Tell the folks who you are.

[KARLI] I'm Karli. 

[JAMIE] Accurate. 

[KARLI] I strive for accuracy. [laughing] That’s the one thing I can guarantee is that I am accurately myself whether or not I'm entertaining is a completely different matter. [both chuckle] Anyways, I'm Karli, a writer, book buff, and late to the film buff game, but no less a fan for it.

[JAMIE] I am hoping that this episode will be not too complicated because it can—the topic today of cult classics or cult films or midnight movies can get a little squishy. And I'm darned determined to not have this be like the MacGuffin episode where we say the word a billion times. [both laugh] But it might be.

[KARLI] Yeah. The MacGuffin episode could be a drinking game.

[JAMIE] You'd be messed up, you'd get so messed up. [laughs]

[KARLI] [laughing] Don’t make it a drinking game. So I'm hopeful it's not like the MacGuffin episode as well. But I am way less familiar with this topic than you. So I might be the problem here. But to start off, I'd like to ask what is a cult classic? Like what—what are the parameters in order for it to fall into that category? Because I did not grow up with cult classic films. Can you explain to me what, what is this thing?

[JAMIE] I'll start by saying, I am not an expert.

[KARLI] Well—pfft—that’s been a disclaimer throughout. That's just The Act Break Podcast. Disclaimer. “We are not experts, carry on.”

[JAMIE] We don't know what we're talking about. And so it's a term some people might have heard of. It's used mostly in cinema. The big question, like you said, is what defines like, what are the definitive traits? Because most people if they've never heard of it, or have never been part of the culture, hear the word cult, and it's a red flag.

[KARLI] [laughing] It is a red flag. 

[JAMIE] It's not a cult, or is it?

[LAUGHTER]

[BOTH] Mmmm. Mmmm?

[JAMIE] So the term originated first in the 1970s as cult films or cult movies. That is a film that is acquired a cult like following, like the first super fans, but for movies that were out of the mainstream.

[KARLI] Okay.

[JAMIE] Represented by fans that create their own subculture based around the work, e.g. repeated viewings, quoting audience participation, that sort of thing.

[KARLI] Okay.

[JAMIE] The term is also traced back to suppressed or controversial films that were kept alive due to the avid fan base. Usually it had to be something that bombed at the box office. Some of the most famous examples have become Rocky Horror Picture Show, A Clockwork Orange, Evil Dead. 

[KARLI] Okay. Okay. 

[JAMIE] Pulp Fiction.

[KARLI] I'm following now, I'm following, okay.

[JAMIE] Yeah. So in that was like the original thing was that they didn't earn their money back or were just a little too weird for the everyday movie goer. [chuckles]

[KARLI] But then all, like a niche group of weirdos came out and were like, we love this. We're adopting it. It's ours now. And then they became like you said, the super fans. That makes so much sense to me now. Like I said, I didn't grow up with it. So I've heard the term obviously, I haven't been living under a rock. At least in this regard. Cult is a really weird word. But now that you explain what the like, where the term originated, I'm like, mmm, okay, that tracks. Because I was gonna say our language choices sometimes are really weird, but that makes more sense.

[JAMIE] Yeah. As with everything over the years, the term has seemed to morph and get a little bit squishy, and in some instances, almost lost all meaning.

[KARLI] [laughs] Like MacGuffin. 

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Yeah. One of the things we talk about a lot here at The Act Break is sub-genre. And the cult classics are no different. They have a lot of sub genres that that can go into. So bad, it's good. [Karli chuckles] Modern cult classics are like their own. And the modern ones is where the definition kind of falls away. Because there are a lot of like, [chuckles] if you use Google who—I hate Google—[Karli chuckles] but if you use it, it'll show you things that were like smash box office hits, that are widely regarded as great movies. And I'm like, I get that Mean Girls has a crazy following, but it was popular at the time it came out. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] So was Bridesmaids. 

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Neither of those are cult classics. But they made a bunch of lists. What are you talking about?

[KARLI] I agree with that, but I definitely found some squishy examples. So I'm glad you brought that up. But so like the, the so bad, it's good. I mean, I would say that that's like, Evil Dead. [laughs]

[JAMIE] I would say it kind of depends. Because I think that that's kind of more of like a horror sub-genre.

[KARLI] Well yeah, but it could fall into both, I think.

[JAMIE] I'm trying to remember because I am less familiar with Evil Dead, and much more familiar with Army of Darkness. A lot of the so bad, it's good categories come out of the like 40s and 50s when production value [Karli chuckles] was so low, and the pool of actors was very small. [laughs] So performances are bad. And yeah, so bad, it's good. 

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Okay, okay.

[JAMIE] It's very Mystery Science Theater 3000. You watch it for the joy of it's [laughing] awful-ness.

[KARLI] I feel like this episode is just gonna be me writing down things that I have to add to my list of movies to watch.

[JAMIE] Yeah, my standard is, lack of mainstream recognition, or at least until a much later date.

[KARLI] Right. Like initially, it had to have been not widely accepted.

[JAMIE] I like offbeat humor. And a lot of them have a very—their own very distinct feel, tone or cinematography style. They're very distinct feels.

[KARLI] Yes. That makes sense. I agree. I, if I'm going to watch something, like that, I want to see something offbeat, quirky. And I don't necessarily like the ones that they're so bad that they're good. I mean, I can't like blanket statement because I've not seen a ton of them. But I would definitely want more, more humorous than not, personally. 

[JAMIE] Yeah. Like, you want them to have been funny on purpose like, Young Frankenstein.

[KARLI] I don't know. I haven't seen that. [laughs]

[JAMIE] It's it's Mel Brooks.

[KARLI] Oh okay. 

[JAMIE] Lots of jokes. Jokes, jokes, jokes.

[KARLI] Right.

[JAMIE] And because it gets squishy. Let's talk about modern cult classics that have been like released in the last, let's say twenty years. So 2000s Maybe some in the 90s that are like The Big Lebowski. Which I know you have seen. 

[KARLI] Yes. And that one is on my lesson like hey, I've seen one! [laughs] Go me. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Others that are more recent would be like Donnie Darko, [chuckles] Napoleon Dynamite.

[KARLI] I have that one on my list too.

[JAMIE] That one is so funny because it's like we all know that was huge. When it came out and I was in high school, I had a friend. And we went and saw Napoleon Dynamite like three times and we could not get anybody to go with us. People were like, we're not going. As soon as it came out to like DVD, it blew up. [laughs] And it was like the first cult classic that I had, like, seen happen in my time. [laughs]

[KARLI] Mmmm. Gotcha. 

[JAMIE] That I was like, aware of.

[KARLI] Yeah, I didn't see it until it came out on DVD. And I didn't get it at first because again, I didn't understand what they were trying to do. I thought they were trying to make, not they were trying to make. [chuckles] I, I didn't get it. Then I rewatched it and I'm like, oh, I get it. I love it. This is fantastic.

[JAMIE] One of many examples where it's like, it has a very distinct feel, color tone. So many of these films are just very, like you can tell what movie they are within one shot. Yeah, The Boondock Saints, that's another that got way big, but way after. It was horribly marketed at the time, I think. [laughs]

[KARLI] That's one of my favorites. Me and the mechanic, we watch that a lot.

[JAMIE] A good example of box office failure, and then going on to epic success is Fight Club. It took $65 million to make and brought home less than 60% at the box office domestically. So it only made like $30 million when it came out. [laughs] But now that's like one of the most like recognized movies. People, people love it. 

[KARLI] Yep. I love it. You love it. We all love it. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] And then I was just kind of interested in--what were some of your favorites? Even though I we've mentioned a couple of them. So...

[KARLI] Like I said, I don't have as wide a viewing range as you because my cult classic experience has come in as an adult. And I even have some questions because I'm like, I don't even know if this qualifies, because obviously I didn't really understand what it was until we started, we hit the record button. I'm curious about a more modern one, Idiocracy? Would you classify that as a cult mod—like a modern cult classic?

[JAMIE] I think so. Because it wasn't marketed very well. It didn't make a lot of money. But I didn't find that one until much later as well. So it's like I’m part of that, more popular later one. I think that that's fair. I think that's a fair—that it is.

[KARLI] Yeah, okay. So that's, that's one of mine. And then Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

[JAMIE] Oh, I need to watch that. That's one I've never seen. 

[KARLI] You need to watch it. I need to rewatch it. It's been so long. But that is actually one of the first ones I’ve, I ever saw. And it was just weird in all of the best ways. And I just—I loved it. Yeah. You mentioned a couple of the other ones. Napoleon Dynamite, Boondock Saints. Uh, would Labyrinth be classified as that? Because I don't remember if it was super popular when it came out or not, but I didn't see it until I was an adult.

[JAMIE] I don't know. I would have to like, Yeah, I know it. Does it have a huge following?

[KARLI] It has a pretty big following from a group—I mean, like I said, I don't know how big the group has to be [laughing] in order for it to, you know, like—

[JAMIE] We need a—there’s a sign up sheet. [laughs]

[KARLI] Exactly. So yeah, I'm curious if anybody knows if that would be classified as a cult classic. Let us know. 

[JAMIE] Yeah. I’m not sure about that one.

[KARLI] Yeah, Monty Python. Was The Princess Bride a cult classic, or was that popular when it came out too? See I just—I don't know—I just have questions. So many questions. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] I've never considered it a cult classic. I know. It does have a lot of fans. But I just assumed it's always been pretty...

[KARLI] That's what I assumed too but...

[JAMIE] I think Princess Bride is a cult classic. But if I'm going to pick of Cary Elwes, I hope I'm pronouncing his name right. The guy who plays Westley in The Princess Bride, when I think of him, I think Men in Tights [Karli laughs] is more of a cult classic. 

[KARLI] Oh, I forgot about that. And I even did see that one growing up. So yep, that's on my list too.

[JAMIE] That one is more a cult classic, I think because it's more obscure.

[KARLI] It's more obscure. It's quirky, and it's meant to be. And then I had, I had another question. Suprise!

[JAMIE] Mhmm, mhmm.

[KARLI] TV show-wise. And it, it could just be that I didn't hear about it. But listen, I didn't know about a lot of things until I was an adult. I didn't know that TV shows like were serial, like they kept running and there was like an over arcing story until I was in my...

[JAMIE] She didn't get it.

[KARLI] Til I was in my 20s, you guys. In this regard, [laughing] I was living under a rock. [Jamie laughs] So would Arrested Development be?

[JAMIE] Yes.

[KARLI] Yay! I put it on my list. I feel so proud. I was like I think it is, I think it is!

[JAMIE] It had bad ratings the whole time it was on. I mean...

[KARLI] It's hilarious! [Karli laughs]

[JAMIE] It's one of—I don't count the new season but the old season. 

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Very, very much. So I should have written I didn't think about television because I was like, oh, there's so much to unpack. [laughs]

[KARLI] There is, there really is. But I really wanted to know about that one because I felt like it was and I was like, I need just—trust your gut, put it on the list. Put it on the list. Very proud of myself.

[JAMIE] I didn't even know you watched Arrested Development. 

[KARLI] I haven't seen all of it. But I've seen a few seasons and I love it. I think it's hilarious.

[JAMIE] Especially if you like the Smartless podcast. You have to have watched Arrested Development.

[KARLI] I mean, you know, I'm an enormous fan of Jason Bateman and Will Arnett, and it just—yeah. Those were all of my favorites, except I'm saving one for my recommendation later.

[JAMIE] Okay. Each of my favorites. I have like a little, a little story. 

[KARLI] Enter Jamie’s monologue now.

[JAMIE] Yes, yes, Karli can leave, go get coffee, take a break. Chillax.

[KARLI] Take a nap.

[JAMIE] My number one is Monty Python and the Holy Grail. And there was a time in high school, we had a group of friends that for a year, on every single one of our birthdays, [laughing] we got together and watched Monty Python and the Holy Grail. So we watched it at least eight times in one year.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I believe, I believe that.

[JAMIE] We were very much part of the cult on that one.

[KARLI] I love Monty Python now. But the first time I saw it, I hated it. With like, a fiery passion. I hated it. And—

[JAMIE] Why?

[KARLI] [stage whisper] Because it was blasphemous. [laughs] [normal voice] That was my, that was—

[JAMIE] [laughing] I can’t—

[KARLI] I know it was a whole phase for me. [laughing] Don’t judge me too harshly for it, or do, I don't know, I judge me pretty harshly for that phase.

[JAMIE] What's blasphemous about the Holy Hand Grenade?

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I don't know, Ja—I had problems back then, okay? [Jamie laughs] I have since matured as a human being, and my taste has improved, obviously. I love that movie now. It's fantastic. It's very quotable. I love it.

[JAMIE] Did you feel a lot of peer pressure about that? 

[KARLI] That I didn't like it? Yeah, I did.

[JAMIE] You were like I better keep watching over and over until I like it, otherwise—

[KARLI] Especially because the, the cult following that included your niche group that I was not a part of that I felt very like, I should like this because they all like it. And I was like, I don't like it.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] The next one on my list of favorites brings us back around to the, my dad was a nerd who begat a nerd. Army of Darkness. I remember seeing this on our TV so many times. We--not Evil Dead. I was not allowed to watch Evil Dead. That was, [laughs] too much. But "Shop smart, shop Smart." I've definitely seen that many, many times. Of course Fight Club, which I was not allowed to see at the time. Of course.

[KARLI] No, that's an adult movie.

[JAMIE] That's an adult movie, wait till you are an adult to see. But that kind of keeps in the whole theme of very uh, narrative style bending.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] And my last one, which is Shaolin Soccer, which is a hilarious comedy about using the art of Shaolin Kung Fu to win soccer games. [laughs]

[KARLI] That sounds rad I, I could be into that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's it's a good one.

[KARLI] Nice.

[JAMIE] When you go online, you can find hundreds of lists of the best cult classics. I doubt anybody likes all of the movies on those lists.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It's uh, they're niche. And they're each their own niche within the niche.

[KARLI] I did notice that because that's how I found my list because I had a couple like running around in my head when you pitched this episode. I'm like, well, obviously Rocky Horror Picture Show, Pulp Fiction, like everybody knows of those ones. [mumbling] I feel like, for the most part, ya know, blanket statement. [regular voice] But I was like, I don't know if I've seen any myself. And so I had to go to the lists to make my list and like be like, oh, that one. Oh, I have seen that one. Oh, I like that one. And uh, but I definitely noticed them like, these swing one way and then the other and there's this and that and they—each are totally obscure and their own little category in and of themselves. It’s, it's very interesting to go look at those lists, especially for someone who just is like, I don't know what I'm doing here. 

[JAMIE] Yeah, I reviewed the list too, because sometimes there's movies you haven't seen in years and you're like, oh, yeah! Certain directors lend themselves to cult classics as well. Sam Raimi, who's you know, Army of Darkness, Evil Dead. And then he went on to do the Tobey Maguire Spider Man.

[KARLI] Oh, I did not—interesting. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yeah. With the Tobey Maguire Spider Man where they do the Doctor Oc waking up and everything. Like that whole sequence screams Sam Raimi and has a total Army of Darkness feel with the quick cuts, the cinematography of it. Really good. 

[KARLI] I'll have to—I still need to watch Army of Darkness.

[JAMIE] Other directors who lend themselves to this are Quentin Tarantino, Edgar Wright. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] Because Shaun of the Dead.

[KARLI] Yeah. Oh, yeah. And obviously like Mel Brooks and, and the like.

[JAMIE] Yes. So the, like the third point of my has to reach these standards for a cult classic is very much distinct feel, tone, and cinematography.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Because if it just feels like every other movie, it doesn't have that special something. 

[KARLI] It's got to have the special sauce. Secret Sauce. [Jamie chuckles]

[JAMIE] My closing thoughts. What a cult classic is depends on who you ask. [Karli laughs] But the most important factor is the avid fan base. We put the cult and cult classic. 

[KARLI] Look at you. 

[JAMIE] Give us our recommendation for the week, Karli.

[KARLI] Oh, okay, so my two cent recommendation for this week is in theme. It is another example of some directors that lend themselves to cult classic type. And that is the Hess duo. A husband and wife team. They're best known for what we mentioned earlier, Napoleon Dynamite. They also did Nacho Libre, but my recommendation for this week is Gentlemen Broncos. And it is obviously of the same ilk. If you liked Napoleon Dynamite and Nacho Libre then you might like Gentlemen Broncos and I am only saying might because it is very bizarre, but I really enjoyed it. It's, it's its own, its own wild thing, but it's a good time.

[JAMIE] I haven't seen that one. I wrote it down. I'm like, oh, can I stream this anywhere? I'm probably gonna have to rent it.

[KARLI] Probably.

[JAMIE] Ah! Three dollar rentals.

[KARLI] The indignation.

[JAMIE] Jeesh. I can't believe this. [chuckles]

[BOTH] This is egregious.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] We're just too much. Sometimes.

[JAMIE] It, is too much. If you have no idea of any of the movies we're talking about, I apologize. But I highly recommend a bunch of them. But if you want a specific, like you want a recommendation tailored to your liking, you feel free to DM me. Tell me some of the works that you do like and I will try and pick...

[KARLI] Ooh.

[JAMIE] The best cult classic to suit what I think your tastes might be.

[KARLI] That's quite a challenge. 

[JAMIE] I like, I like a little bit of a challenge. 

[KARLI] You do.

[JAMIE] There is no guarantee that you will like it. No, no money back. There will be no refund. 

[KARLI] [laughing] There is no money back guarantee on this situation. 

[JAMIE] Thanks for listening. Find us on Instagram and Twitter at @theactbreak_podcast or if it's Twitter, leave off the podcast part. Follow or subscribe on your podcast delivery system of choice. Find our backlog of episodes, as well as transcripts for every episode this season on our website, scifiohmy.com. Click on podcast. Sign up for our newsletter while you're there, uh, for exclusive content. [stage whisper] That’s a lie. [Karli laughs] [mocking voice] Sign up you'll get something nobody else is gonna get.

[KARLI] Well I mean, kind of because we do send out like, things that we're enjoying like right now like recommendations. That’s, that's exclusive. [sarcastic voice] We don't share those with just anybody, guys.

[JAMIE] But I mean we would if anybody asked. [laughs]

[KARLI] Shhh, don't tell them.

[JAMIE] Sign up for the newsletter! [both laugh]

[KARLI] Bye, internet friends!

Bad at Romance - Transcript

[KARLI] We're back. 

[JAMIE] We did it. [sings] Jeffery Bezos. [regular voice] I can’t—I can't afford to pay Bo Burnham any copyrights. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] Mmm no, cut it. 

[JAMIE] Please don't do it, Bo. [Karli chuckles]

[KARLI] I know I'm always wanting to sing different songs. Eminem, ACDC, Bo Burhnam.

[JAMIE] I know, I always cut them out.

[KARLI] You're always like, No, you're not. You can't have that. Can't have that. Can we even afford to mention their names? [laughs]

[JAMIE] I think if you mention their names, that’s the only way you can. [both laugh] I just don't wanna get sued. Nobody cares. Nobody's listening to this. I mean, you guys are listening to this. But like,

[KARLI] Nobody important. That's what she's trying to say is nobody important. [Jamie laughs] She just insulted our listeners. [laughs]

[JAMIE] That is not what I was saying at all. You're just putting—you’re projecting your thoughts on me. I was just gonna say, I made sure that last season, I only ripped on people so big that there's no way they would ever hear our podcast, like Steven Spielberg. [both laugh] And if he ever hears this podcast, I would be happy to apologize in person to him. [laughs]

[KARLI] [chuckles] I offer a retraction but only in person. 

[JAMIE] Yes. It'll be incredibly genuine. And not fan girly at all. [laughs]

[KARLI] Not—I will not squeal. Definitely not.

[JAMIE] I—I never. I don't do that. 

[KARLI] That sound does not come forth from your, your vocal cords.

[JAMIE] Mmmm? Mmmm?

[Karli laughs]

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] I'm really nervous. We have a guest we've never [singsong] had before. [regular voice] And she could be arriving at any moment. Ahhh.

[KARLI] Literally any moment. But it's so exciting to have to be back in the swing of things and having guests on. And just— 

[JAMIE] Makin' fools of ourselves. 

[KARLI] Yeah, exactly. It’s—

[JAMIE] All feels right in the world.

[KARLI] It's gonna be a good time.

[JAMIE] Aahh!

[KARLI] She's here! Welcome back, everybody. We at The Act Break strive to keep it real. And we are real bad at today's topic. So we brought in some help. And I am Karli, struggling not to sing Lady Gaga with the title of this episode right now. [Jamie chuckles]

[JAMIE] And hi, I am Jamie and I am a sci fi writer and a secret romantic. Shhhh. Robots have hearts too. [Lang chuckles]

[KARLI] Today's guest is internet friend, fellow book lover, romance writer, and all around extraordinary human, Lang Johnson.

[JAMIE] Welcome.

[LANG] Thank you for having me on.

[KARLI] Oh, thanks for coming. We're so excited to have you.

[LANG] I'm so excited.

[JAMIE] If nobody even listened to this podcast ever, it’s been worth it. Because I've been able to talk to so many people that I've known for years, but never talked face to face with. And so this is our very first [chuckles] face to face. And I'm like, I'm nervous. Hi, Lang. [laughs]

[LANG] Hi. I know I was feeling the same way. I was like, I'm so nervous to talk to them.

[KARLI] Right. But we've talked to each other for years now. 

[JAMIE] Yeah. 

[LANG] I know. 

[KARLI] Which is such a crazy thing to think that that's just how—the internet's a weird place.

[LANG] It is. It is.

[JAMIE] I wonder if uh, what are they called—Xennials—listen to us. Talk about that every single time. The internet's so weird. And they're like, “Boomers.” Aw man, it’s crazy.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] But absolutely, we’re thrilled to finally be talking to you face to face in real time. It's very exciting. We can't wait to pick your brain about today's topic because like I was joking, this is not our forte, but this is your bread and butter. 

[LANG] Yes, it is. [chuckles]

[KARLI] So today, we're going to be talking about what Lang does. She is a romance writer. So we're going to pick her brain a little bit about her experience. And then we're going to dive into the topic of romance as a genre, sub-genre, some things we like, maybe some things we don't like, and just have a bit of a chit-chat about it. It's gonna be a good time. 

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[LANG] I'm excited. 

[JAMIE] When we were like, okay, if we're going to talk about romance, we obviously need a guest because neither of us [all laugh] are gonna be able to bring much to the table. And we both thought of you. 

[KARLI] Oh yeah, we're like Lang. Lang’s the one. 

[LANG] I am honored. Thank you.

[KARLI] We're so glad that you said yes. We're always nervous whenever we ask people like I don't know if they want to come on with us. We're weird.

[LANG] I've been waiting. I'm like, Oh, I hope they ask me, I hope they ask me. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Yay.

[KARLI] That makes me so happy. All right, well, why don't we just start with a little bit of a get to know you, Lang. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey as a writer?

[LANG] Sure. So I started writing in 2016, which actually, I heard the podcast with Greta; and I forgot which one said that we all drank the Kool Aid in that year.

[JAMIE] We did. [Jamie and Karli laugh]

[LANG] Yeah. But yeah, so I mean, I was always writing as a kid growing up, like, I've always been interested and reading a lot. And my mom didn't really let me watch TV. So I have like, all the books to read. But I actually ended up working in IT for—I worked in finance for like, five years, and then IT for ten years. Because, you know, I was like, that's what I got to do to make the big bucks. It wasn't really that big of bucks. I was in the corporate world for a long time. And then I would actually like write at my desk, and then I just like shove them in my desk drawer, and like lock it. [Karli laughs] Yeah, and so. But then eventually, I met my husband, we got married, moved to California for a little bit. And I just started thinking about my career more. And one day, I just took the leap to become a writer. I mean, it wasn't just like, we talked about it a lot for like, probably almost a year until I just said, “Okay, that's it. I'm quitting corporate world, and I'm gonna start writing.” And so then I started working on my first book Of Beasts and Gods. And that was like a fantasy, like a dark fantasy romance. And then, and then it just went from there. So now I'm on this book now. This is actually technically my third book so...

[KARLI] Nice. That's awesome.

[JAMIE] It is so funny. The more people who you talk to, in our little universe of Instagram, writers that started in 2016. I think that's a really—

[KARLI] Cracks me up. [Jamie and Karli laugh]

[LANG] Like, what was going on that year? [chuckles]

[JAMIE] I know, I need to look back. What were the headlines? What, what inspired so many of us?

[KARLI] What stars were aligned that we all were just like, this is what we got to do. It's so funny. So you said this is your third book that you've been working on? And so you're, you're like, you're ready to publish.

[LANG] I am. May 12th.

[KARLI] Ahh! Okay, and so that's Devil's Breath. 

[LANG] Yes. 

[KARLI] Are you? Do you want to talk about that a little bit? 

[LANG] Yeah, I can talk about it a little bit. It is a romantic suspense book. It's based out of New York. And basically, I'm really bad at explaining my own books. 

[KARLI] That’s okay. 

[LANG] So that's why I have like the book blurb.

[KARLI] You're in great company here. [Lang laughs] We're bad at explaining our own stuff too, or at least I am.

[LANG] Isn't it like the worst, you write a whole book and you don't know how to explain it? [laughs]

[JAMIE] Well, you write a whole book and they're like, explain it to me in like four sentences. And you're like, ohh, uhhh.

[LANG] Yeah.

[KARLI] You're like, I wouldn't listen. If I wanted to write micro fiction. I would write micro fiction.

[LANG] Right. [laughs]

[KARLI] But I wrote a whole novel because I can't stop writing more words.

[LANG] Right. That's why I can't do Twitter.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I always run over I'm like, ah crap. All right. So Devil's Breath, romantic suspense...

[JAMIE] With a backdrop of New York.

[LANG] With a backdrop of New York. The main character is a female assassin, also a chemist, “a brilliant chemist,” as my blurb says, and she ... so she has a family drug empire, and she's creating a new drug called Devil's Breath, which is like supposed to take over the market, but they need funds. So the person unknowingly funding their venture is this billionaire. 'Cause romance, you know, usually has to have a billionaire. 

[KARLI] Gotta have a sexy billionaire.

[JAMIE] It's always more romantic when there's more money involved. Let's be real.

[JAMIE] Right, right. 

[LAUGHTER]

[LANG] Right, exactly. So we have the hot billionaire with like, the chiseled body, of course. Yeah, that has to happen to. So he doesn't know. He's like, he doesn't know he's funding her venture. And her plan is to just basically like, take his money and kill him. But then you know, the lines kind of blur because she starts falling in love and what she—you know, its like a family business. So she can't betray her family. So it just kind of goes from there. And I swear it is way better than how I'm explaining it.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I believe it.

[JAMIE] I believe it as well. [Lang laughs]

[KARLI] I can't wait to read it. I'm so excited. 

[LANG] Thank you.

[JAMIE] I've just recently experienced this as well. Although I think that you did a pretty good job of pitching. If you want to make yourself feel like your story's stupid. Just try and explain it to somebody real quick. 

[LANG] Right!

[JAMIE] You're like that sounded so dumb. I'm sorry. [all laugh] This is how I always feel after I pitch a book. I'm like, you know, now that I say it out loud. Forget it. [Lang and Jamie laugh]

[KARLI] If I was good with my vocal words, I would be a podcaster. Oh wait.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Pretty much.

[KARLI] We're way better on paper folks, way better on paper, we promise. 

[LANG] Way better. But those are—there’s like those pitch wars that they have. I'm like, and I'm like, how did you? How do you win that? I don't know how to even do it.

[JAMIE] I tried to do it once and I had a couple of good pitches, but that is like throwing flicks of water into the ocean and hoping somebody finds it. [Karli and Lang laugh]

[KARLI] I mean, that's a good segue from talking about your book to just dive right into the topic. So...

[LANG] Okay.

[KARLI]  We all know that there are levels of romance, you know, we go from the full-on this is a romance book to there's like an adventure where like the sub-plot is interwoven with the main plot, so it's still really crucial to the story. And then you've got like, oh, they happen to also fall in love, or maybe like a side character romance or something like that. 

[LANG] Right.

[KARLI] So it's like, there's definite, distinctive things. In amongst that, where does Devil's Breath fall? Is that just like, it is romance? And then the other stuff is secondary? Or is it the adventure or like the suspense is first in the romance a second? Are they like, together?

[LANG] I kind of want to say it's together. It is heavy on the romance because it is focused on the two characters, and is dual point of view with her and him. But there is also a lot of action and gunfights and stuff like that. 

[KARLI] So you gotta like a real inner woven thing going on? 

[LANG] Yeah. Yeah.

[KARLI] Nice. That’s exciting. I'm a big fan of like, an exciting adventure, or suspenseful something going on alongside romance. Very nice. I'm even more excited to read it now.

[LANG] Oh, thank you.

[KARLI] Um, so in general, do you notice specific like, preferences in the levels of romance that you enjoy either writing or reading?

[LANG] Yes, I have preferences. I do really like enemies to lovers. That's a big one for me. What else do I like?

[KARLI] I love enemies to lovers, too. I'm a big fan of that.

[LANG] Me too. I like the forbidden love, which is kind of like what mine is because, assassin. Let me see. And I think I don't really have much. It's so weird to say because I'm like a romance person. And I'm like, I don't really have much that I like. [all laugh]

[KARLI] So are you, in that way do you mean like you're super picky, or you're really specific about what you like, or ...

[LANG] Specific. 

[KARLI] Okay.

[LANG] Yeah, I'm pretty specific about what I like. Like right now there is this like really big thing in the romance community, where they do like a lot of like bully romance, and I don't judge anybody and what they read. I'm just like, personally, not a fan.

[KARLI] I've never even heard of that. Can you elaborate a little bit? 

[LANG] Okay, basically, mostly the love interest of the main character is like, really mean, but it's very different from like, enemies to lovers. It's like they’re, they like bully them. Like, like--

[KARLI] Like a position of power even maybe over them in some way.

[LANG] Usually, yes. Yeah. Usually, yes. I'm not a huge fan. It's really big. I'm not a huge fan. But there are certain ones that I like, if the main character is also like, very strong and pushes back a lot, so...

[KARLI] Right. Yeah, cuz I mean, because then I feel like it gets really touchy with that, like, victim, abuse. It's just I feel like the line is so fine there that you could get in trouble real fast. 

[LANG] Exactly, yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah, I could see that. I probably wouldn't be so much into that, either, so...

[JAMIE] I know that a lot of people like it. But for me, I don't usually like it when the love interest is a jerk. But they somehow fall in love anyway. And like just disregard all of their past bad actions. I'm like, but would you really? But would you? So that's, that's I agree where I'm like, that's not my preference.

[KARLI] Yeah. I mean, like, even if, if they've got flaws, and all of that, I mean, that makes them feel more real. But you want them to have something there that you could believe that they would fall in love with that person.

[LANG] Right? Yeah. And I don't mind--so like I'm reading one now. It's called the Zodiac Academy series. And it's like really, really big on BookTok.

[KARLI] I think I've heard of that. 

[LANG] Yeah, it's really good is considered a bully romance with the female characters are so strong and fierce. And they they push back a lot. I think I'm on book three now and there's still no real like, falling in love or romance type thing. 

[KARLI] So it's more of a slow burn situation. 

[LANG] Yeah. Right. And I think it's like, I'm assuming the guy is going to change at some point.

[KARLI] So yeah, something is gonna happen.

[LANG] Yeah, has to be like a long process. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, not like I flipped a switch and suddenly I'm nice now. [laughs]

[LANG] Right? Yeah, exactly. 

[KARLI] A little bit more believable journey. 

[LANG] Right? Right. 

[KARLI] Well, speaking of like the slow burn situation, that's another preference of mine. I enjoy watching a good slow burn.

[LANG] I do love slow burns. Yes.

[JAMIE] Same. [Jamie and Lang chuckle] Other things that I really liked to get to know you portion. Like that new fluffy feeling. This is in no way a dig on my spouse [chuckles] but we've been together for eighteen years this year. So that new relationship feeling is not something I get. [all chuckle]

[LANG] Right, right? 

[JAMIE] Or I pretty much know everything about him. I love him for it, but I don't get that in my everyday life. [laughs]

[LANG] Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] Do you have other things you like Karli?

[KARLI] Oh, what types of things? I'm all over the place. But I mean, because I like fantasy and stuff. I'm super into like shifter, vampire romance, stuff like that. So that's a that's a big like of mine. But I have discovered I didn't think that I would like romance outside of that because that was really my initiation into romance was that kind of stuff. But I recently read just like some, just pure romance. That was not so pure. [all laugh] How do you—how do you even speak? See, Lang, this is why we're bad at romance is because like we can't even talk about it.

[JAMIE] Giggle, giggle, giggle. [Lang and Karli laugh]

[KARLI] Hehe. [laughing] So ridiculous. So what about you, Lang? Do you have any more like things you, things you like to see in your romance?

[LANG] Obviously, the billionaire trope because, ya know. I also like the soulmates. So usually, that's like more fantasy for me like, I don't know if you guys read Sarah Mass' stuff where they're like...

[JAMIE] I have. 

[LANG] Okay, they're like mates, right? Like from like, they’re whatever, they I forgot what they're called.

[KARLI] Mated or something. 

[LANG] Yeah, yeah. So that's not like, real life romance, usually, but I do like that with fantasy. I usually don't like straight romance either. There are a few like, Colleen Hoover has really good stuff, but I like more with like, action adventure or like, you know, and then the fantasy like the shifters and stuff like that. 

[KARLI] Something going on on the side.

[LANG] Right.

[JAMIE] What you said reminded me like, um, like, if I think of very specific tropes I like, on the fantasy side of like, soulmates with enemies to lovers. So they're soulmates that hate each other. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Oh.

[LANG] I love that. 

[KARLI] I love that.

[LANG] Oh my gosh, I like that's, that's good. And then there, there are like some taboo ones. So I'm actually part of like a Facebook group called Deliciously Dark Taboo. But I um, I am like too nervous to write taboo, because I feel like I would have to do a pen name. So maybe one day if you see a pen name that's very similar to Lang Johnson.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I like that. 

[JAMIE] You're selling yourself out. I feel like it took me a while to realize that I can like romance, because my introduction to reading was so much YA. And there was so much angst and there was so much cringe that I'm like, I don't really like this. Especially 'cause I like a slow burn like a build up something you're expecting because you've built up to something. And I felt like with a lot of what I had read was like, instant—insta love. 

[LANG] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] Which I don't like because I'm like, you don't even know this person.

[LANG] Same. 

[KARLI] Or if it is a slow burn, it’s very angsty.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[LANG] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Or real creepy. [Lang and Karli laugh] Edward Cullen.

[KARLI] We're looking at you, Edward.

[JAMIE] There are some red flags. Okay, Bella! 

[LANG] Oh my gosh, right. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] But I'm glad that like now I'm like, oh, yeah, I don't mind a romance as long as it is, like, a grown up approach to how to handle interactions with other human beings. [laughs]

[LANG] I agree. I agree. And that is actually one of my least favorites, is insta love. 'Cause then it's just over like, and then also why? [chuckles]

[KARLI] That really it's the only thing on my do not like list. Like no insta love. I'm not into it. Because then you know that they're gonna fight over something dumb later. And I mean, listen, I don't mind you know, fight and break up and get back together, fine. Like, but make it about something like actually makes sense with the plot. Then I feel like Insta love kind of lends to, in my opinion, the silly breakups.

[LANG] That's actually honestly the only thing I don't really like either.

[JAMIE] There's a weird line and I'm not even sure where I fall on this where I don't like it when people—they fight, they break up over things like if you would have just talked to each other ... none of this would have happened. But then I also really do like idiots in love trope. 

[LAUGHTER]

[LANG] I've never heard that trope, but I like it.

[JAMIE] It's probably because it's mostly in fanfiction. [Jamie and Lang laugh]

[KARLI] So can you elaborate on what idiots and love means then?

[JAMIE] That's why I don't know where the line is because it is a lot of, they're having a miscommunication.

[KARLI] But it's not out of being completely um, just blatantly like not telling each other things?

[JAMIE] I guess. Yeah, I guess the line is in like the traditional rom-com, they were hiding something from each other. So then they break up, whereas idiots in love are assuming that their feelings are unrequited. 

[KARLI] Oh, okay.

[LANG] Mhmmm.

[JAMIE] So it's like, I think I'm the only one who feels this way. So... 

[KARLI] But they both feel that way. 

[JAMIE] But they both go that way, but they assume the other one doesn't. So instead, it's, it's less of a lie or an omission of a situation or whatever, and more of like a self-confidence issue, I guess? [Lang and Jamie laugh]

[KARLI] I like that too. Because yeah, they they, I feel like that kind of gets into a little bit of like, the the best friend trope where they're in love with their best friend, but then they think that their best friend won't, won't feel that way. But then their best friend really does feel that way. 

[LANG] Yeah, yeah. 

[KARLI] But I don't like it when the when, the best friend, just serial dates really terrible people. And then they don't realize that they were in love with their best friend until their best friend gets a makeover or something like that. 

[LANG] Oh, I don't like that.

[KARLI] Nope. No, they didn't see your worth before. Not worth it.

[LANG] Exactly. Oh, yeah. I don't like that either. They do that a lot in movies, I feel.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Super common movie trope. Great.

[KARLI] Great segue to uh, lines, [Lang and Karli laugh] lines in romance.

[JAMIE] They call that a non sequitur.

[KARLI] Yes.

[LANG] Lines? 

[KARLI] Yes. What are the lines that we draw between the age gap in the genre? And where does that fall with different things? Because I feel like obviously, it's so different for younger audience than it is for older audience. 

[LANG] Right.

[JAMIE] This is like, this is where we could get into the weeds and get in trouble. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] Everything we say on The Act Break Podcast only reflects the views of the people stating them. [all chuckle] We’re not forcing anybody else to believe what we believe and we encourage you to form your own opinions.

[LANG] Yes, I like that. So I know a lot of YA is, we kind of discussed like the angsty, fade to black.

[JAMIE] Mhmm. 

[KARLI] Well, and that kind of goes into that whole discussion that we had with Kim about young adult versus adult because there's such a wide range of Young Adult that it is so difficult that you know, you have twelve-year-olds reading young adult and you have eighteen-year-olds reading Young Adult, not to mention, you know, anybody older than that. 

[LANG] Right.

[KARLI] Like how do you market to an audience from within the just the mentality and maturity level gap between twelve and eighteen?

[JAMIE] Yeah, I like how you said it, though, because that's kind of how I feel about young adult is like, angst, romance. But when it comes to physicality, it's like kissing making out, fade to black.

[LANG] Right.

[JAMIE] Like after fade to black, anything past that is above, above YA into New Adult, into adult. I feel like PG is like, no romance or like little crush... 

[KARLI] Middle Grade is like a crush situation. 

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[LANG] Right. Yeah. Because there is such that gap for Young Adult. I mean, like, this is just my opinion, but I personally feel like it should be fade to black. Just because if you are like eighteen or twenty, or, you know, forty like me, still reading Young Adult. Like, you can probably you're like, okay, it's fade to black, I don't care. But then like twelve-year-old reading a full on sex scene is different than us reading like a fade to black.

[KARLI] Absolutely. Because we can fill in the gaps. But they don't need to. Because yeah, not something that they need in their head at that age. 

[LANG] Right. Right. Exactly. 

[KARLI] That whole they were kind of trying to make New Adult a thing for a second there. And then they were like, yeah, too much work. Just put it into the adult section. And I do agree that like that's the better choice versus leaving it in Young Adult but I do I do think that there should be an in between. 

[LANG] Yeah, yeah.

[JAMIE] At least nowadays, readers and like the community, like we label them New Adult, even if they're not creating a new niche in the market for marketing it that way, or categorizing them in that way. In release, like as a community. We're doing that.

[KARLI] Yeah, right. Right. Yeah, definitely. I mean, obviously we're talking specifically about sex in this instance, but you know, romance is more than sex. Like is there's the intimacy without the physical aspect. And so, you know, there's ways to do adult romance without going into detail. So it’s, you know, it gets it gets kind of squishy, because we talk about like, oh, well, you know, if they're, if they're sex, and it's automatically adult, and if there's not sex in it, then it's, but that's not necessarily true, either. 

[LANG] Exactly. Exactly. 

[KARLI] Because you can have a romantic relationship without going into detail.

[JAMIE] Or you can have a romantic relationship without having a physical relationship as well. Yes.

[KARLI] Yeah. Just like you can have a physical relationship without having a romantic relationship. [Lang and Karli chuckle]

[LANG] Right. And it goes both ways. Yeah. 

[KARLI] So yeah.

[LANG] So I don't know who does the sorting and like stores like Barnes and Noble or the bookstores, but I know Jay Kristoff—I think you both know, Jay Kristoff, right?

[JAMIE] Yeah. Yeah. Personally, I talked to him yesterday.

[LAUGHTER]

[LANG] I know. He's my best friend. [all laugh] He has responded to some of my stories. So we're basically best friends.

[KARLI] Exactly. I've seen that. I was so happy for you. And because I know you're a, you're a fan.

[LANG] I love him. [all laugh] But he's so, sometimes he's like, posted stuff on Instagram, where like, people have been yelling at him. Because his books end up in the YA section. And he's like, that's not YA, I don't know why it's in there. He's like, I've never said it was YA. So I don't know who sorts these like, I always thought publishing companies like send it over and they're like, put this in Adult but apparently that's not the case, so.

[JAMIE] Yeah, that is weird, because that's what I was under the impression of as well is that the publishing house dictates in like, when they sell those and like distribute them, they usually I would assume have control over where it ends up, what ends up on an end cap, what ends up being featured. So that's strange. 

[LANG] Yeah, yeah. 

[JAMIE] If anybody works for Barnes and Nobles, DM us and explain. [all chuckle]

[KARLI] Well, but I feel like it's not necessarily even just Barnes and Noble. It's just bookstores in general. Like, some will categorize things properly. And some they won't. I mean, I think it's a similar problem as science fiction and fantasy, all getting mooshed to the same section. Because like, oh, it's the same thing. It's all made up. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] And I can see, especially with like, independent where, like, you're just putting them wherever, if you if there's an author who's consistently released a bunch of YA, when you open the box, throw it on the shelf, and you see the author's name, you maybe assume. 

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[LANG] Right.

[KARLI] So I think I think it would behoove booksellers to take, to take a gander on the Google whenever a new book comes out just in case. [Lang chuckles] Goodreads does a decent job of tagging those things, because the readers are the ones tagging things. So and they'll usually flag stuff. Not always, but most of the time.

[JAMIE] This is a question for all of us. Even though we're not great at romance, either. But I do have like a thing to say about it. But any advice for people who are not so well versed at the romance? 

[KARLI] The writing aspect, you mean? 

[JAMIE] Yeah, the writing, if you're gonna try and write a relationship, or romance or any advice you have?

[KARLI] Well, I mean, I feel like with a lot of things, read what you like, what you feel like you might want to write, and start paying attention to, you know, the different moments within that and then make notes for yourself. That's what I try. And that's what I try to do, at least. Whether or not I succeed is another matter entirely. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] My advice is that you should get lots of feedback from people who read it. So I agree with you, Karli, where it's like, kind of do a case studies. Read what you what you're going for. Because that can show you like, Oh, this is how people do this. This is how they achieve these feelings in a reader. And then when you're unsure, get feedback from people who enjoy that sort of writing.

[LANG] Well, yes, there you go. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Well, I guess, how did you start writing romance? Like, what made you go this is what I want to write or was it just like a natural like, just, this is what I'm gonna do.

[LANG] And so like my first book I wanted was a fantasy book. But then the romance kind of took over on its own. 

[KARLI] Okay. So just felt natural to you.

[LANG] Yeah, it just kind of felt more natural. I mean, I've always liked romance in general anyway. So I guess it just kind of flowed. But that's my first book. That wasn't actually my intent. I wasn't trying to write a romance and then it just turned into one.

[KARLI] Do you have a two cent recommendation for us today, Lang? 

[LANG] For romance? My book?

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Obviously, yes.

[LANG] Well, I think I already mentioned it, but I really do love the Zodiac Academy series. It's really well written. Like I said, it is kind of like a bully romance. But it's like, I love it just based on like, the female characters. And there's also a lot of like diversity in it. The fantasy world that's been created, is just, it's really good. There's like shifters and all kinds of really cool stuff. So they did a really good job. And the writing itself is really good. I was in a really big book slump, and then I pick that up and I'm back. 

[JAMIE] Nice. 

[KARLI] That’s awesome. And is that Young Adult or Adult? 

[LANG] It's adult. 

[KARLI] Okay. Well, well, now I'm really interested. Well, thank you so much for joining us Lang you are a delight to have and it's just was great to have a conversation with you and pick your brain about all of this stuff. So thank you.

[LANG] Thank you for having me. This has been fun.

[JAMIE] I was wonderful. We'll have to have you again. Yes, definitely. If you'll agree.

[LANG] Of course. Yeah, of course. [Lang and Jamie laught]

[JAMIE] We make her we make her agree to it on air.

[KARLI] Record her response. [laughs]

[JAMIE] This is legally binding.

[LANG] I would love to be back that would be great. It's so nice to actually talk to you guys like face to face so, yeah.

[KARLI] It is really nice. We just started this podcast so that we could actually start talking to all of our internet friends in real time. 

[LANG] I like that.

[KARLI] Forget all the story talk and the rest of it. It was for the internet friends.

[JAMIE] Karli, stop telling people to forget our other episodes. [all laugh] You should listen to all our episodes. Every single one of them.

[LANG] Yes, absolutely.

[KARLI] All right. So Lang, you can be found on Instagram and TikTok.

[LANG] Yes. 

[KARLI] @writer_langjohnson

[LANG] That is on Instagram, and then on TikTok, it's @author_langjohnson.

[KARLI] Definitely go follow Lang. Check her out. She is one of the most like encouraging and positive and like—you’re so motivating. You're always doing awesome things, and runs, and yoga, and all kinds of cool stuff. 

[LANG] Thank you.

[KARLI] Lang's debut novel Devil's Breath comes out next week, May 12. Go preorder it. If you're listening to this after May 12, then just go buy it and read it, and rate it, review it. We're so excited for you, Lang. Thank you again so much for joining us. Congratulations on your debut.

[JAMIE] Yes, congratulations.

[LANG] Yeah, thank you so much. I had so much fun this was, this has been great.

[KARLI] And you can find us @theactbreak_podcast on Instagram, on Twitter @theactbreak_. If you want to sign up for our newsletter, which you definitely do because we're very cool, go to scifiohmy.com/podcast, and you can sign up for that. You can also find all of our episode transcripts there as well. Link to all the things is in the bio of our Instagram. Thanks for listening.

[JAMIE] [chuckling] Talk to you later, internet friends.

Real Honest with Jamie Redact - Transcript

[KARLI] My how the tables have turned. [maniacally laughs]

[JAMIE] Oh how the turn tables. [chuckles] Indeed. Now we're here.

[KARLI] Yes we are. [Jamie chuckles]

[JAMIE] You don't have to sound so evil and satisfied.

[KARLI] I can't help it—t’s just just bubbling up inside me; I can't keep it in.

[JAMIE] This is why I don't give you a lot of power [Karli laughs] it goes straight to your head.

[KARLI] Mhmm. It really does, it really does.

[JAMIE] She can’t handle it. She goes full villain.

[KARLI] It takes just the slightest provocation. I just tip over onto the dark side.

[JAMIE] Yep. Walking that line constantly. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] I don't look like I could be a villain. And so that's like—surprise! Ha!

[JAMIE] Yeah, you do. [laughs] She's like, it's not like I have like an undercut and I have crazy hair color and tattoos. [Karli laughs] Oh, wait!

[KARLI] Oh, so people who have undercuts and tattoos are automatically villainous?

[JAMIE] Obviously. [laughs]

[KARLI] What an assumption. Stereotyping much? [laughs]

[JAMIE] When I see you I don't instantly think of, it's not like you're like a 50’s housewife with like oven mitts and like a hoop skirt.

[KARLI] Mission accomplished. I was going for the opposite. So thanks.

[JAMIE] I'm just saying, we—we all have that potential for evil inside of us [laughs] and yours is just under the surface. [laughs]

[KARLI] It is. It really is.

[JAMIE] So close.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count. 

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] At this stage, if anybody doesn't understand the level that you commit to bits, then I don't even know what they're doing here anymore. Just saying. [laughs]

[JAMIE] It's a problem. I have a problem.

[KARLI] Spoiler alert. It's always a bit.

[JAMIE] I don't think I've said a true statement in last three years. [laughs]

[KARLI] Nope, nope. 

[JAMIE] My husband is often like, “Are you done with your bit?” Or like, “Please stop.” 

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Are you done now? Wrap it up. 

[JAMIE] I'm sorry, everybody. I'm not that sorry. But here we are. 

[KARLI] Here we are, indeed. Welcome back folks to your favorite 30-ish minute podcast with your favorite non-experts where we talk all about stories, except when we don't. I'm Karli, grimdark fantasy and speculative fiction writer who is not so secretly enjoying this opportunity to torture Jamie, this delightful human I have before me. And I get the pleasure of introducing my co-host today, which is so much fun.

[JAMIE] My butt cheeks are so clenched right now.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Jamie, or Jamie React, is a science fiction and speculative fiction writer plotting president extraordinaire. As you may already know, especially if you listen to the last episode, we have been friends for quite a long while. But our relationship really took off and was strengthened by our mutual writer endeavors. In that process, getting to know her and her awesomeness more, her tenacity and wit are a constant inspiration to me. Here she is, folks. Quirky and trusty critique partner bestie, Jamie. [makes trumpet announcement sound with mouth]

[JAMIE] Thank you. I have—I have to leave now. I can't be in the same room with somebody who says nice things about me.

[KARLI] Don't get used to it. I won't be that nice to you again.

[JAMIE] I mean, keep going. [Karli laughs] Tell me more. Tell me more about that. Uh, hi. 

[KARLI] Hi! 

[JAMIE] It's just fair that we, we both had an episode where we are forced to do this. I was thinking it would be worse for you because I mean, [chuckles] I love talking about myself. But now that it's happening, I hate it. I hate it so much.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I hate it. I take it back. I don't like it.

[JAMIE] It's half—that’s also a bit fake humility. [Karli laughs] Add that to my repertoire.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, I sorry. I should have put that in there too. Next time.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Humble, but only ’cause she's pretending. 

[KARLI] Yeah. So welcome to this, Get to Know You, Jamie Edition. It's like a game show.

[JAMIE] Ooo! Are there prize?

[KARLI] Yeah. When you answer all of the questions you get to be done.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Oh. I'm in.

[KARLI] So last week, obviously, we interviewed me which was incredibly painful. But unlike me, she obviously loves, loves this whole situation. 

[JAMIE] The big difference is, last week was painful for you. And this week will be painful for listeners. [both laugh] It's hard to turn down the self deprecation. I'm be serious. I'm be serious now. 

[KARLI] Okay. 

[JAMIE] Okay. All right. 

[KARLI] So really, we're just keeping in theme with the unlikable character trope. [Jamie laughs] And we're just gonna dive right in. We're gonna start with reading stuff because you know, just ease you into it. You were kind to me, I will be kind to you. What is your favorite genre to read in, and why?

[JAMIE] I decided to take a page out of Karli's book and pick more than one. 

[KARLI] Yeah! 

[JAMIE] Because I have two vastly different ones. But they're both completely necessary. My handle kind of gives it away. Scifiohmy, obviously, I like to read a lot of science fiction. 

[KARLI] What?! 

[JAMIE] I know it's strange but true. More specifically, I veer towards science fiction set in a world we know or are mildly familiar with, with a science fiction twist. Sort of like Change Agent by Daniel Suarez, or Dark Matter by Blake Crouch. Also, Replay by Ken Grimwood. They're all set on Earth, even though some of them may be like some sort of futuristic society. There's not like a whole bunch of re-learning, like a new planet. 

[KARLI] Mmm. So as opposed to like space science fiction. 

[JAMIE] Yeah, I like space science fiction. But when it comes to like, my favorite things to read, science fiction that is based in a reality world with like a high concept twist. And then on the opposite spectrum of that, my favorite things to pick up are super solid, straightforward adventures. Even though I'm like, those other books are set in a world I know, usually, the concepts are very cerebral, and you have to like expand your mind to really consider them. And that leaves me feeling really tired.

[KARLI] You feel like your brain has been stretched out?

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's really I have just like a whole shelf full of books with way high concepts that I'm like, "Whoa, this is exhausting." So then I end up looking for these, like, really straightforward adventures where I have to use my brain as little as possible. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah, light and fun. And just, you're there for a good time. 

[JAMIE] Yes, exactly. 

[KARLI] That encapsulates you in a very good way. I also really appreciate that you took the time to plug Dark Matter, we hadn't yet this season. Nice job.

[JAMIE] This is the first of many. 

[KARLI] Okay, so you read a lot of older books, largely in science fiction, but you read, you just read a lot of older books. So I'm curious, what draws you to those books?

[JAMIE] I think a lot of that is me feeling like I'm playing catch up, from books I didn't read when I was younger. I felt like there was a whole bunch that people ended up reading in school as far as like the classics go. And then if I had maybe picked those up and read them, I would have followed up with some of the other ones.

[KARLI] Listen, no one I know read Vonnegut in school, okay. 

[JAMIE] But when you, when you say like, oh, I want to be an adult science fiction author, there's often things people reference. And so I wanted to go back and read those books so that when people were referencing them, I knew what they were talking about. So in the last, like, three or four or five—I don't know, time's not real—I’ve ended up reading like Fahrenheit 451, Stranger in a Strange Land, Brave New World, The Forever War, Neuromancer. So, there's so many that I've caught up on and I felt like—

[KARLI] What people think of when they think of classic science fiction.

[JAMIE] Yeah, like 1984, The Left Hand of Darkness. I felt like I was not rounded enough until I had some references so that when people say things about those, I can actually know what they're talking about and not just nod my head like I know. [both laugh] And some of them, I really enjoy and some of them I'm like, yeah, this does not hold up. [Karli laughs] This is really bad. Not so great. The ones I, uh some of the ones I just listed, I'm like ehhh. [Karli laughs] If they come out now, they definitely wouldn't have one, come out [Karli laughs] or wouldn't have been, quote unquote, classics. But I still am working my way through some of the older books. I like to go back and kind of know the history of science fiction and its evolution. That's why I end up reading those. It's funny when you like type in classic science fiction, some of the stuff that comes up isn't even that old, like Douglas Adams and Kurt Vonnegut, who are both since passed away, weren’t—that was not that long ago. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It was not long ago at all. But those are two that I do really enjoy that fall into that category of like, older science fiction.

[KARLI] Listen, you have an old soul. Your corporeal form is younger.

[JAMIE] What? Did you call my soul old?!

[KARLI] Yes, I did. It's a compliment, okay? Go with it. In your reading tastes is there anything that makes a book an instant win for you, like certain themes, tropes, plot structures, characters?

[JAMIE] I am a sucker for high concept. I am a sucker for anything that I am like, feel like I haven't seen before or anything that has a weird narrative style. Anything that's kind of like flipped. [chuckling] Doesn’t mean I always pick up winners. But it does make me intrigued. So I like, I like a weird story very much.

[KARLI] Can you share with our listeners, your reading philosophy?

[JAMIE] Yeah, I would love to do that. Because it's something I didn't know I had until I started telling Karli it. And that is that life is too short. And there are too many books I want to read, to force myself to keep reading a book I don't care about, I'm not invested in or I'm not enjoying. DNF more books. That is my philosophy. [both laugh] I know that there are some books that are like, well, you have to get to this certain point or you have to—and if you feel compelled to push yourself there, that's on you. I mean, there have been books where I am within like, the last one-third to one-fourth of the book, and I'm like, I don't even care what happens right now. If I don't care what happens and I'm this deep into the book, I should stop wasting my time. 

[KARLI] That's a sad day. 

[JAMIE] I will never read all the books on my TBR. So I'm not going to waste any time on something I'm not enjoying.

[KARLI] Since you telling me that, I have DNF’d more books. And I must say, after trying it, it has made my reading life a better place.

[JAMIE] See? That's great. See, I'm just help—I‘m just trying to help the world. 

[KARLI] That's right. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] [chuckling] I’m a humanitarian. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] Okay, so enough with the easy questions. Let's get to the hard stuff. Writing stuff.

[JAMIE] I have never written anything. [Karli chuckles] I'm new. I'm new to the podcast.

[KARLI] Nice try. Alright, let's start with why do you write? What is the purpose of storytelling for you personally?

[JAMIE] Ooo. Karli with the hard questions. This is what I had coming to me after last week, I guess. [heavy sigh] So as I explore my innermost feelings for this topic. [both laugh] But my writer section is when I get weird, honest, it's a good—I’m just saying it's a good thing we already told everybody that I'm never telling the truth or serious. [chuckles] So hopefully they'll keep thinking that I'm joking mostly. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, except that you just, you just told them, so...

[JAMIE] I'm my biggest—I’m my own problem. I like to sell myself out. It's a problem. Why I feel like I write stories is to give an experience to entertain others, I want to do it for the same reason I like to receive it. That like that feeling that sense of awe and wonder when I read, I would like to translate that and then give that experience to another person. Making somebody else laugh, cry, angry, invested, entertain new ideas, and not feel, potentially not feel so alone. In my pondering I found like that's, that's the goal of when I write to give the experience I receive. I think that's why I have been more dissatisfied over the last few years. Because my drive to have my work experienced by others, and I haven't been doing the work to get to that stage. I recently was asking myself, if I just write for myself and plan to never share it, is that enough for me? And the answer was no. If I don't plan to share my work, I don't see the point in writing. Which I know that is kind of the opposite of the message we send. But, but the whole storytelling thing is like, I want to tell somebody else a story. 

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I could tell myself a story in my head. I don't have to write it down and edit it.

[KARLI] It's meant to be like a shared experience, storytelling. 

[JAMIE] Yeah. So my, my new kind of perspective is, share or don't write. And that's my personal advice to me.

[KARLI] Yeah. I love that though. I think it's great if that's what motivates you and...

[JAMIE] [chuckles] Yeah, I definitely as I discovered that I was like this is, in some ways opposite of what a lot of people tell you. We also have an episode talking about writing for your own enjoyment, which I still believe in. But as a career, for me, the time that I am investing into this, if I don't share it with other people, I am literally wasting my time.

[KARLI] With your goal of wanting to give people an experience that you receive that all, that all tracks. You can't give it if you don't share it.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Exactly. Yeah, so that is my goal in writing.

[KARLI] Okay, you've drafted pretty much a novel every year for the last six years? What is the biggest thing you've learned from that experience?

[JAMIE] So I think I've drafted a novel for the last three years, and then there was a gap, and then one year or two years before that. What I've learned the most is what I am capable of, and where my strengths lie. Which I feel like are in concept, outline, draft; which I know those are three very different things but when it's early days in a draft, those are the things that motivate me. I love doing concept and development. It's probably what keeps me going. I get a huge sense of satisfaction and accomplishment from that. It causes some problems later when it comes to workload and, you know, editing that. [Karli chuckles] But I think that the benefits are worth it. 

[KARLI] And being on the outside looking in, I would agree that the benefit outweighs the, the workload struggle. You are so good at that. And watching you do that, like you're in your, you're in your element. And it's really fun to watch you do that.

[JAMIE] I love development. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Next question. What do you aim for when writing your stories? Is there a vibe or theme you try to encapsulate? Is it similar between your projects? Or is each one different for you?

[JAMIE] Ooo that's a hard question. 

[KARLI] I only ask the hard questions.

[JAMIE] Just really getting down to the brass tacks of it. I've definitely tried to have completely different vibes and feels with a lot of my work. The overarching goal is, I want people to know when they pick up one of my books, that they are going to be entertained, and they will laugh, hopefully, out loud at multiple parts of it. I really love the humor. So I try and have that in every single one of my books. But I'm all over the place. [Karli chuckles] I create a whole vibe for each individual story. Overarching themes? I'm sure there are but I didn't go into too much depth. I looked at them. I didn't see as many overarching themes through each story. But I will say that each story has a very specific theme that within the context of the plot has probably become so nebulous that I'll be interested if anybody picks up the theme that I was thinking of when I wrote it. [both chuckle] That’s, that's the whole thing. But I do have kind of like an Easter egg for anybody who eventually, hopefully reads multiple of my books. Just like a funny line, or like a throwaway joke that I try and put in every single one of my books. And I have multiples of those, but I'm not going to say what they are. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, no, you got to, like people got to hunt for those.

[JAMIE] You have to read it. 

[KARLI] Alright, so um... Let's get to the inspiration and the influencing of the thing. Which authors inspire and influence you the most?

[JAMIE] I'm gonna pick a couple. I wanted to, or I want to say that most of the things that I consider inspiring, like that word in particular, are movies and film and it's rare that a book leaves me feeling that way. And that is why you hear me mention the same books over and over because those are the books that have made me feel that way. All Our Wrong Todays by Elan Mastai, Dark Matter by Blake Crouch, and then like a variety of Kurt Vonnegut stuff. And Kurt Vonnegut for narrative style, Brandon Sanderson for plot structure and work ethic, and Blake Crouch for concepts. I haven't Read Blake Crouch's earlier work because it's mostly like horror/thriller. And that's not really my genre. But his newer science fiction, adult science fiction works are superb. There's a new one coming out this year. I'm already excited. I wish I had invested more time into getting on Net Galley and actually being a productive member of Net Galley ’cause then I could maybe be reading it, but I'm not. I just have to wait like a peasant. [Karli laughs] I don't know. I don't know if people don't like peasant anymore. 

[KARLI] You can say peasant.

[JAMIE] We're really worried about offending 18th century peasants. [laughs]

[KARLI] I'm just curious if—because I, I see those. I definitely see those. But I'm curious about like the, the humor side of things because you have such a great, um, like I said earlier, wit. And your humor is laced throughout everything that I've read that you write. And so I'm just curious if you have an inspiration for that.

[JAMIE] Yeah, when it comes to books series, that are more humor, like the types of humor that I like… Ironically, some of those series don't have a lot of plot. Let's be real, a lot of us love The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. But the plot is real weak, like it's just kind of this roving adventure, which I enjoy. And then the novelization of Red Dwarf is the same way where it's super hilarious but the plot's real, real loose. In fact, I think that actually the plot is more solid in the Red Dwarf series. But that's also written by two people. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] When you go on to Goodreads, it says, like Grant Naylor. And that's two last names that they squished together. I really like wacky, madcap, I can't believe—it’s like, it's a sitcom. It's a situation comedy. Like, how did we get here? [Karli laughs] But we're here. That's the yeah, those kind of Douglas Adams. But more, the Red Dwarf boys.

[KARLI] I knew what your answer was going to be. But I wanted people to hear it. Because it's like, selfishly, I just want everybody to know, because I just I love, I love, I love that mashup. Because it's very you. 

[JAMIE] Yeah. 

[KARLI] Do you have a favorite part of your writing process? And like, maybe tell us a bit, expand on why that's your favorite thing.

[JAMIE] Yeah, like I had mentioned, a concept and development is my favorite part. But I like those parts—this is that honesty thing. I'm like, I like them, because I'm good at them. If and when I'm doing them, I feel like I'm in the zone. I feel like I'm doing what I'm meant to do. And the development portions, I like to take a concept, and then try and stretch it to its limits. Figure out from a concept, what would make this into an actual story? What would the goal of this story be? What am I trying to convey about the story? Why, like why? The theme. The theme, first comes concept, then comes theme. I have to find something and marry them together. And then the development of finding my beats and plugging plot holes. That is my favorite thing to do, is to create characters, create reasons that you're going to end up laughing because of those characters, solving problems that those characters are going to face in a way that doesn't feel contrived. [Karli chuckles] I could, if I could just do story development. I would. [both laugh] I mean, I do like drafting but if I could just like do concept, development, and outline; concept, development, and outline. Oh.

[KARLI] Good. I'll hire you to help me with mine. 

[JAMIE] Yeah, I mean, I guess technically there are people who do that. But I would hate for somebody to write a book and then get credit for my idea. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, totally. 

[JAMIE] Unacceptable. 

[KARLI] All mine. 

[JAMIE] It's everything. My name.

[KARLI] Well, getting credit for something that you work hard on I—nothing wrong with that. Well, so I feel like that kind of segues a bit into the next thing that I was going to ask you is: what do you feel is the most exciting thing about being a writer?

[JAMIE] Hmm. I love this. Everybody prepare for the real talk. The most exciting thing that I think about being a writer honestly, is the potential for praise. [both laugh] Let’s be real.

[KARLI] Gettin' real honest here. 

[JAMIE] Let's be real. [Karli laughs] I'm just saying what lots of people think, but never allow themselves to either say out loud or admit to themselves. It's like, the chance for someone to read my work and [laughs] recognize my genius [Karli laughs] and confirm it, are what I want. That is like a big, it's just like a confirmation. [laughs]

[KARLI] You're just saying what everybody's thinking and not brave enough to say.

[JAMIE] I feel like that that's kind of an overarching theme of people who become comedians. And since I am not quite skilled enough to be a comedian, I feel like that is a trait that I've taken on where it's like they, they do need praise to live, they're a little bit like Tinkerbell. [Karli laughs] And they, they are seeking a validation from outside sources, which is not always healthy. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Praise is your fairy dust.

[JAMIE] But it is a factor. [both laugh] Like, you can’t—like, I listened to a lot of Conan O'Brien. And I mean, I've heard so many comedians talk about this in interviews, how they were, you know, kind of weird kids, acting out, trying to get a laugh; but it's because they want to make other people laugh, and they want to know that they are the reason that they did that. And I think that that's one of the most exciting things for me about the potential for sharing my work is for people to enjoy it, and then tell me they enjoy it or to, you know, to state that it was good. And that's, that's one of the reasons why it can be hard to handle negative feedback for, for some. Luckily, I, I feel like I'm pretty good at taking negative feedback, mostly ’cause I very specifically seek out people who are giving me feedback to make me better. 

[KARLI] Yeah, the constructive criticism. 

[JAMIE] Yeah, I trust that. It's not just people tearing into you, which you will have once you go out and produce, you know, give your work to the widespread world. That is going to happen. But, but as far as excitement goes, I'm excited for people to like my work. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, that's awesome. And now for the lightning bonus round. What do you like writing the most? Is it like fight scenes? You like the smooshy romance? [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] I think that what I enjoy the most are conversations. Bonus if they are awkward or uncomfortable, funny, and filled with snark. I love having people talk to each other because I try and get them as close to how actual people talk to each other as possible. And it's, it feels very low pressure to me for some reason. So I found that, I find that the most enjoyable.

[KARLI] Yeah. And you live for the snark, so it's very satisfying to read snarky characters. 

[JAMIE] For sure. 

[KARLI] Well, thank you so much for being here today, Jamie and allowing me to crack open that robot brain and see where all the wires are hooked up. [Jamie laughs] Appreciate it.

[JAMIE] Yeah, no problem.

[KARLI] So do you have a recommendation for us today?

[JAMIE] I do. The Two Cent Recommendation this week, is Living With Yourself on Netflix. It's a comedy drama, eight episode series, starring Paul Rudd from 2019. I don't want to give you too many details. Because it's kind of fun to go in blind, but it's about a guy who's sick of his life, who takes a life changing trip to the spa. And he walks out a changed man, and then madness ensues, and his life kind of explodes. Uh, it’s Paul Rudd. So do you really need more information? [chuckles] He’s this year's Sexiest Man Alive, after all. [laughs]

[KARLI] I love that for him. I really enjoyed that show as well. So I, I approve this message.

[JAMIE] See, all that power, straight to the head. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] Thanks as always for listening, unless this is your first time in which case, welcome to the madness. Transcripts are available on all of this season’s podcast episodes, and they will be slowly releasing as I'm able to crank them out on season one. You can find everything else you may need via the links on our Instagram @theactbreak_podcast or you can go to scifiohmy.com and click on podcast. Please like, and follow, and review us because, well, it's not really hard to move your thumb over like an inch or so, you know? Like, unless you're driving, in which case, you have a pass. So you know, be safe, ten and two, eyes on the road. We'll be back next week.

[JAMIE] Talk to you later, internet friends.

Deep Dive with K.C. Ash - Transcript

[JAMIE] Our recordings so far have been like, right on. Like we're hitting the buttons at the same time.

[KARLI] Yay! It only took me an entire season.

[JAMIE] It’s—I don't think it was you. I think it was just everything.

[KARLI] Okay. I like that. I like that.

[JAMIE] It's much better to be everything's fault and your fault. I mean ...

[KARLI] Yeah, mhmm, always. Do you remember like those inside out, backwards days at school?

[JAMIE] I didn't go to school. [both laugh] At homeschool? You mean like, did I ever put my shirt on inside out like once or?

[KARLI] Just for fun? Just for funsies?

[JAMIE] Maybe. You talking about Spirit Week? Basically?

[KARLI] They didn't call it spirit week when I was going to school. It was just like crazy week. I don't know, you did all kinds of crazy things. 

[JAMIE] Crazy hair day and stuff. 

[KARLI] Yeah, that sort of thing.

[JAMIE] I know about these things ’cause I have nieces and nephews. 

[KARLI] Okay, great. So you you have a point of reference.

[JAMIE] I don't want people to think that I've been educated. [both laugh] Okay?

[KARLI] So you have a point of reference. Yeah, cuz you clearly would not be able to follow anything I'm about to say otherwise. 

[JAMIE] Yes. 

[KARLI] I was just gonna say that's how my brain feels right now, [laughing] preparing for this episode.

[JAMIE] Oh, inside out, upside down, ripped apart, dragged through the coals?

[KARLI] Pretty much.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Here are some pitches. I was like, "What should I call this episode?" So I'm gonna read them all to you. 

[KARLI] Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

[JAMIE] The ones that I got. I got: The Host Roast; [Karli chuckles] Cracking Open Karli; Karli in Retrospect; The Girl with the Book Dragon Tattoo; I Don't Know What to Do with My Hands; [Karli laughing] Don't Look At Me; [both laughing] And Slightly Uncomfortable Conversations. 

[KARLI] Oh, no!

[JAMIE AND KARLI] Oooh, ehhhh, ewwww.

[KARLI] Oh, God. 

[JAMIE] How you feeling? 

[KARLI] It hurts. 

[JAMIE] You gonna—feeling good about today? Aren't you?

[KARLI] Oh, boy. It's it's gonna be special. Gonna be somethin'. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] What are you saying? You're so special?

[KARLI] Well, obviously I am so special. I can't wait to talk about myself. It's my favorite thing.

[JAMIE] That's her favorite topic, everybody. Perfection.

[KARLI] Woosa.

[JAMIE] Hello, everybody. Thank you for tuning in. It’s just kind of, it's kind of an outdated reference or phrase, but I'm going to say it anyway. Because thanks for pressing play just doesn't have that magical ring to it. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] Because podcasting is basically radio now. I mean, radio still exists, but come on.

[KARLI] Radio is dead.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Video killed the radio star. 

[KARLI] [laughing] Thank you. Cause I was just about to say that.

[JAMIE] You can call me Jamie or Sci-Fi Oh My or that girl from that podcast that I occasionally listen to. Whatever. I'm not picky. I'm a sci-fi writer and an amateur podcaster. But that's enough about me. [laughing] Insert Karli's big gulp here.

[KARLI] I feel like I've said it all already.

[JAMIE] Oh, well. That does not that does not bode well. [chuckles]

[KARLI] I'm finished, right? My work here is done.

[JAMIE] I tried to ask questions that you I felt like you hadn't answered in the past.

[KARLI] The ones that I avoid like the plague on purpose? 

[JAMIE] Yes, those are probably those ones. 

[KARLI] Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for that. I feel really excited to have you as a friend.

[JAMIE] You're welcome. Today we are going to be shining a spotlight on my co-host here. It—I was, I was saying spotlight but I'm like, in Karli's mind I envision it more as that one naked lightbulb over your head and in an interrogation room. [laughing]

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah.

[JAMIE] And I swear that the inception of these episodes was not solely to make you squirm. But I knew it would. [chuckles]

[KARLI] But it's a happy byproduct for you. Thanks. 

[JAMIE] It's just important that people get to know you. So Karli, or K.C. Ash, is a grimdark fantasy writer who I have known many, many moons; before she or I even started our writing journeys. Her creativity and persistence in the pursuit of writing have helped keep me going. She is supportive; a wonderful cheerleader to a lot of people in the writing community. And today I have some questions to really help listeners get to know you and your reading preferences, writing style, influence; all that goodness that is pertinent to the podcast and people's perspective on what our perspectives are. So, there you go.

[KARLI] Thank you. That was very kind of you. Now I'm going to have to rewrite my intro for you [Jamie laughs] and actually make it nice. Ugh.

[JAMIE] You don't have to. Paddle your own canoe, Karli.

[KARLI] I was—I was kind of kidding.

[JAMIE] K.C. Ash is a contemporary [Karli laughs] romance writer. [Jamie laughs] I’ll just say a whole bunch of misinformation about you. 

[KARLI] And then people just have to guess. 

[JAMIE] It's--the time has come, Karli. Gird your loins.

[KARLI] [laughing] Gird my loins. I was gonna go with like a nursery rhyme thing.

[JAMIE] I went in a different direction. 

[KARLI] Yeah, ya sure did. 

[JAMIE] I want to talk about some reading things. Okay, I know you read a wide swath of genres. But what do you find you're drawn to the most? And why that genre?

[KARLI] I would say fantasy as a whole. There was more to the question; you said why. Disassociation? [both laugh] But seriously, escapism. I mean, the imagination, the exploration of myths and legends and fairy tales, and exploring things that can't possibly be real. And using that, to tell stories that might be ... something that you need to know about yourself or about the world, but through the lens of this magical place. Even if the magical place is a little dark and gritty. I mean, it can be anything. I'm not too picky when it comes to my fantasy. I like it all. But I just, I love the idea that there are no limits and anything can happen. It's my favorite.

[JAMIE] There is no genre that is like fantasy. Like, literally anything could happen.

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] And that's exciting. 

[KARLI] It is so exciting. I love that.

[JAMIE] Are there any themes, tropes or concepts that you like so much that when you know that that book has it, you're like, instantly hooked and willing to give it a try?

[KARLI] Anything that is not an orphan boy, chosen one, [laughing] set in medieval Europe.

[JAMIE] That's millions of books. 

[KARLI] I know. It's mainly a joke because some of my favorite books are that very trope. I just 

[JAMIE] I mean, I love a good orphan. Orphans need more love, Karli. [laughing]

[KARLI] I don't love them.

[JAMIE] They don't have parents! [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] What that's--that's how it works? Oh, oh, okay. No, but seriously, dragons. [chuckles] I love me some dragons. You got dragons in your book, I will read it! But also, not necessarily a trope, but character wise. If there are characters that are—I’m wanting to read more characters that are my age or older. Lately, that's been a huge draw for me. 

[JAMIE] Adult protagonists.

[KARLI] Adult protagonists. I’m—and honestly I'm really not too picky. I'm all over the place even in my fantasy. There are things that I can't really explain that I look at it and I’m like, that sounds amazing. Even if it's the same pitch as another book. I don't know. Like, I like fantasy. Dragons!

[JAMIE] [dramatic deep voice] Dragons. I just see that the alien gif but instead of aliens it says dragons.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Dragons! [chuckles] I love that.

[JAMIE] What type of endings do you like the most in books? Do you like them ambiguous, tragic, full circle, happily ever after, cliffhangers? I mean, there's so many different styles of endings. Obviously not. It's not like every book has to have the same and you like it. But I'm just wondering.

[KARLI] Like my absolute favorite? I mean, yes. All of them. Except for the cliffhangers. Ehh boo. [both chuckle] Ambiguous. Ambiguous has my heart and soul. If an author can pull off an ambiguous ending, they've got me for life. I want to be left wondering, I want—I don’t—and it's not the same as being dissatisfied because they didn't tie off enough things. Like, when you can do it properly, so many like satisfying things have happened in succession in the climax but then they close with this feeling of, you're really not sure what's next. You're not dissatisfied that you don't know what's next. But you just spend days, weeks—and it can, it can pop back in your head years later—and you're like, really wonder what's next, or what that meant, or I love being able to think about it.

[JAMIE] I almost feel like that is like a line between an ambiguous ending and an open ended ending. Because I have been ruined on ambiguous endings by literary speculative fiction. I've read too many of those where the end is so ambiguous that it becomes, the rest of the story has become dissatisfying because I didn't get enough answers,

[KARLI] I would just call that vague. And I think that that's just, I don't care for that. In order for it to be an effective, ambiguous ending, it can't be dissatisfying. It has to, there still has to be enough resolution in other aspects of the plot that you don't walk away going, well, why did I even read that? 

[JAMIE] Yeah. 

[KARLI] It's more a sense of contemplation that it gives you. I like that feeling of that was so good. But I also have more questions. But not in a, I can't sleep at night, because it's irritating that you didn't tie things off, kind of way. I feel like Ocean at the End of the Lane is one of my favorites that’s—that leaves you with that feeling.

[JAMIE] Do you find you read mostly new published like published in the last five to ten years or more older classics? Well, not—they don't necessarily have to be classics. But in the last thirty plus years old.

[KARLI] I used to read much wider range as far as that goes, I had a very healthy mix, I felt. But more so now I read a lot, a lot more, it's almost exclusively newer. Which, I mean, asking this question, I was like, oh, yeah, it's been a while since I've picked up something older. So I do plan to work that stuff back in. Because I think that there's a lot of value in looking at the way—'cause styles change over the years, what's popular, and it's just interesting to read different stuff.

[JAMIE] See, those were the softball questions, [Karli chuckles] because they're about reading, which is basically talking about other people's work. And now we're going to talk about writing.

[KARLI] Oof, on to the hard stuff. Okay. 

[JAMIE] So much more personal and close to home. So I appreciate that you were open to the idea of giving people insight into our psyches. It's a scary place but ...

[KARLI] Was I open to it, or were you like, you're gonna be kicked off the podcast if you don't do this?

[JAMIE] I threaten that weekly. 

[KARLI] Yeah, that's true. 

[JAMIE] You do you do as I say, Karli!

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] So really, nothing has changed. 

[JAMIE] Season two, shmeason two.

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[gulping coffee sound]

[JAMIE] I'm waiting for Karli to chug all her coffee.

[KARLI] I'm gonna sip it now.

[JAMIE] All right, I'm gonna start. What first drew you to writing and what made you feel being a writer was right for you?

[KARLI] The same as for reading. Escapism, imagination, exploration of the, of ideas and concepts and worlds, characters that I've made. The right choice for me? I could never really make up my mind what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up. But I figure with a writer, I can explore a lot of different avenues in my head. And that, I think, will suffice. Rather than just picking one thing, I'll just … I'll be a bunch of things.

[JAMIE] So it's like, still what drives you, you went into the field for the escape and wonder, and then discovered that you could keep that throughout your life because you could use it as a way to explore things. That's a great idea.

[KARLI] Well, I think drive is too strong a word. That sounds way, that sounds way too productive.

[JAMIE] Like my next question was what drives you to still want this life of being a writer? Because it's not easy.

[KARLI] Yeah, it's what keeps me interested. For sure. It's the imagination of it all, is what keeps me interested still. For sure. 

[JAMIE] Who do you consider your top three author influences?

[KARLI] I might hate you the most for this one. [Jamie chuckles] Because you know how difficult it is for me to pick favorites.

[JAMIE] My concept was smoosh these three writers together and you will get a writer that would be similar to you.

[KARLI] Yeah, perhaps.

[JAMIE] Ish. Ish.

[KARLI] I don't know. We'll see. 

[JAMIE] It's like a weird, phantom, shadow version.

[KARLI] But at the same time, I can't just pick three but I did. I did.

[JAMIE] Then you can pick three. 

[KARLI]  Eh. Uhn-uh.

[JAMIE] You can pick three because you did. You said I did. That means you can pick three.

[KARLI] Enough with your Vulcan logic. It's very painful, but I did it. In the moment, this is what I picked. And tomorrow it may be different, but here it is, as of now. Tanith Lee, Brandon Sanderson, and Joe Abercrombie.

[JAMIE] ’Cause it has to give people that idea like, I like those authors, so I should, I might potentially like Karli's work. I think those are great choices. 

[KARLI] Why thank you. 

[JAMIE] If you were going to pick a work from each of them, that—it doesn't have to be a comparative to you, but like pick one work from each of those.

[KARLI] While I do love, um, Tanith Lee's adult fiction, I have to pick her young adult series, The Claidi Journals, that like, got me super interested in the idea of writing. And then Brandon Sanderson. Oh, it's tough, but I love his debut, Elantris. I mean, I like everything that I've read by him. I pick them all. [chuckles] But if I had to pick one, that one and then Joe Abercrombie, again, all of them.

[JAMIE] Is he fairly new to you? I mean, you just started reading but you'd like been voraciously reading him. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, I've only discovered him last year. But I have read ... I'm on the sixth book of his now. 

[JAMIE] Oh, nice. 

[KARLI] And I think if I had to pick one at this point, I would pick The Heroes, although it's the one that I'm reading right now might, um, might nudge it out. But I don't know for sure ’cause I haven't finished it yet. So.

[JAMIE] Are those all part of a series that is connected?

[KARLI] All in the same universe. The trilogy is a consecutive story. 

[JAMIE] Okay. 

[KARLI] Like the, like the first three. And you don't have to read the standalones in a particular order. But honestly, you get so much value out of it because characters come back, and there's nods to stuff that happened in the other books, and so many easter eggs that it just makes the experience phenomenal. 

[JAMIE] Cool. So what has your process looked like from story conception to drafted manuscript? I know that it would be different for each one, but give us an idea.

[KARLI] Yeah, it's definitely different for each of the ones that I have completed drafting. My first one was like a Norse dark fantasy. The idea came for me—came, came—it came to me

[JAMIE] In a vision. [chuckles]

[KARLI] In a vision, in the--in the DMV of all places. You know, has, or as I like to call it, [chuckles] “Hell on Earth.” And oddly enough, it came from an idea not even in Norse mythology, it was like a different mythology. But I was like, ooh, but make it Norse. And then I just kind of like, jotted down a few notes. And it was days before NaNoWriMo. And you had convinced me to try it out. And so like, [excited voice] "I'm going to do that!" [normal voice] And it was the same year that I had decided to start writing. So I didn't know what I was doing. So I just pantsed my way through. I didn't finish NaNo. And so I like took a step back. There was also like some big like life changes. I think that that's part of why I didn't finish as well. And then I finished it during Camp NaNo the following year. Also still pantsing.

[JAMIE] So it took you like a year from conception?

[KARLI] No, six months.

[JAMIE] Oh, got it, got it. So that's a pretty quick turnover.

[KARLI] Yeah, that is a really quick turnover. That has not happened again, for me, since. I've not been able to have like, I've learned that my ideas have to simmer a little longer usually. I think that that one came so quickly, one, because of like the new writer excitement. And also, I was already very familiar with a lot of Norse mythology. So I could just like yeah, so I had a lot to draw from, I think already without really realizing that I did. 

[JAMIE] Mhmm.

[KARLI] And then I had some squishy in between attempts for other stuff that I hadn't finished. And then that kind of helped me with drafting of my second one, which is a gothic fantasy. Because I realized I tried plotting, like heavily in between because I was so mad at myself for the mess that was my pantsed first novel. [Jamie chuckles] And I thought, oh my god, well, I better plot and then I realized if I over plot then I don't want to finish it. So. So this one, I got the concept from a line in a song. It's one of my favorite songs. So I've listened to it since childhood. And this one line in particular always jumped out at me. So I had been ruminating on that for probably a couple of years but re-listening to it September of 2020, I was like, oh my gosh, and things just kind of clicked into place. And so I wrote that during NaNo that year. And I, for that one I did save the cat beats but I did like the bare minimum so that I wouldn't like overdo it for myself. And that worked great. I finished NaNo with a zero draft. So it was pretty rough, bare bones, but I made it start to finish [chuckles] which was really big deal for me, since I hadn't finished anything since that first one. So I really needed that win. Yeah. And then my third one that I finished is an urban fantasy. Or I'm calling it a sub-urban fantasy, not suburban, because it's not in suburbia. It's just in a rural setting. [laughing] It’s a, it's a vibe of urban fantasy, but it doesn't take place in a city. So I'm like, I don't know what to call it. That one also, bits of ideas kind of floating around in my head for a couple of years and another zero draft during Camp NaNo of 2021.

[JAMIE] It's a slightly more rural setting, but it has an urban feel. So it's like a rurban, [both laughing] a rurban fantasy.

[KARLI] It's a rurban fantasy. I love it. We're coining it.

[JAMIE] See you are always give me a hard time about having all these books and like you have three working on your fourth. So ...

[KARLI] I know. Uh, yeah, I just, I don't like to talk about it, ehh.

[JAMIE] You don't want people to know that like you actually have a lot of words under your belt? Like a lot. Like probably twice as many as me because all your books are twice as long.

[KARLI] I was gonna say my—I always make really long books. I think I have the most words still on that first one because it went through so many drafts and I re-draft when I edit which is just …

[Jamie and Karli in unison] Insanity. 

[KARLI] But apparently, that's a thing, so.

[JAMIE] Through all these stories, have you ever noticed any re-occurring things? Like do you like to echo themes, character traits, jokes?

[KARLI] This one was really tough for me to like sort through.

[JAMIE] I will say that I have seen certain themes in yours.

[KARLI] I'm curious to hear. I'm going to say what I'm going to say and then I'll be curious to hear your thoughts. The things that I noticed are like themes and like things that happen in my stories: nightmares, feeling trapped and breaking free, psychological terror, largely of things that are like outside of the control of the character. So you know, really light stuff. 

[JAMIE] You know, like just really mildly horrific things. [both chuckle]

[KARLI] Only slightly terrifying. And then characters wise, I know for sure that there's always one in each story that is like this hyper-idealized version of a facet of myself that [chuckle] I’ve like, amplified and made into a whole character. [both chuckle]

[JAMIE] I—that’s relatable. Like I totally see that especially like nightmares and like the dark, twisty things. Because I was like thinking about the stories I know of you. And I feel like, um, ostracized characters, protagonists that feel removed from a society or a family. So you know, they're like out there on their own, which is a really helpful trait because then they usually are in like, new situations and worlds, which is a good way to attach a reader and introduce them to new situations and worlds.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, I definitely do that. You are correct.

[JAMIE] Yeah. So the question is: Do you want to tell us anything about what you are currently working on?

[KARLI] Yeah, I actually don't mind. I was, at first it's like, oh, no, I can't talk about what I working on! Ahhh! But as I started thinking about it, I like this is a good exercise for me. And I'm also very excited about this story. I'm perhaps more excited about this story than I have been for anything I've written to date. Other than perhaps like that new writer excitement feel of the first one. Currently, this story is it's just vibes. It's, uh, it's vibe soup. It’s got mood lighting and music and like, feelings. It's a whole, it's a whole situation.

[JAMIE] [laughing] It just doesn't have words yet. 

[KARLI] [laughing] There’s no words.

[JAMIE] Everything except words.

[KARLI] Everything but words.

[JAMIE] I love a good vibe soup. 

[KARLI] Yeah, exactly. Anyways, the closest genre that I think I have found that encapsulates what I'm trying to go for at this stage is dungeon punk, which is basically just like a grittier version of steampunk or cyberpunk. But mines, mines more on the steampunk side of things. So ...

[JAMIE] Dungeon punk gives off more of like a fantasy punk feel than cyberpunk. I love that.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, I’m—I spent some time on the Google's try to find that and I really like what pops up like the descriptions of that but you know, people can go Google it themselves. It's, it's cool. My current, very rough pitch for it is if Polly Shelby from The Peaky Blinders use magic to work as a government agent in a world that feels a lot like Arcane. But you know, with like a dash of Killing Eve vibes.

[JAMIE] Beautiful. 

[KARLI] We'll see if I can deliver on that.

[JAMIE] That's exciting. It’s—I'm glad to hear that it's like, you're so excited. There's a quote that whatever you're working on should be the best thing you've ever worked on. So I love, I love that for—I love that for you, Karli! [chuckles]

[KARLI] Thank you! I love it for me, too.

[JAMIE] So we've, we've gotten through most of the hard questions. My next one I'm very excited to hear your answer for. What do you like most about being a writer?

[KARLI] This one was tough for me to sort out. But I think I've narrowed it down to the satisfaction of making stuff up in my head. You know, I didn't always know that I could do this. Growing up, I you know, I loved reading and I was a voracious reader. And you know, I just let authors make up worlds for me. And I just, I lived in those worlds. I just—forget reality. I’m—I'm here in whatever story I'm reading. But then I hit this certain stage in life where I just felt this, like mental clarity and freedom that I had never experienced before. And it literally was all of a sudden, there were all these stories in my head. And I just—it felt amazing. And so cool to think that I could make up these things and be excited about them. And then hopefully, potentially share them with people one day. And that's where, that's where the fly in the ointment. But you know ...

[JAMIE] Ahh, we're getting there. [both chuckle] So what advice do you think five years from now Karli would give you today?

[KARLI] Can I have future me voiced by Morgan Freeman?

[JAMIE] I—we don't have the budget, Karli. I have to pay your dog.

[KARLI] Dang it. I thought you said he wasn't being paid!

[JAMIE] I know, it's an under the table deal! He doesn't want to pay the taxes.

[KARLI] Ugh. That dog. I just— [laughs]

[JAMIE] [laughing] You genuinely only want to say it if Morgan Freeman is gonna say it.

[KARLI] Yeah, basically. Yes. I just want to I want him to say, "Put down the video games and walk away.”

[JAMIE] So you— [both laughing] that was such an admission. Like oh, okay, so I already know. Karli is already struggling. I'm gonna have to cut you off. 

[JAMIE] Yeah, no, it's true. No! [laughing]

[JAMIE] Meanwhile your partner and my partner are enabling you to just play hours of video games. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, definitely.

[JAMIE] What's going to inspire you more, me telling you to work or me challenging you? Because when you're gaming, I'm usually working. I know how competitive you can be.

[KARLI] Probably is gonna be you giving me a date to share writing stuff with you. So ...

[JAMIE] Wooo ...

[KARLI] Honestly, my honest—I mean, that was like the joke. The joke advice, which is also factual. 

[JAMIE] Okay. 

[KARLI] Perhaps. Maybe. I'm not admitting to anything. My real advice from future Karli is: "One word leads to another. Don't quit."

[JAMIE] And now, do you have a recommendation for us this week? 

[KARLI] Oh, yeah! Sure. So our Two Cent Recommendation for this week happens to be something that aided in my inspiration to become a writer. And it's a whole series by Cornelia Funke. It's Inkheart. Don't watch the movie. If you've watched the movie, just pretend it doesn't exist. Except for Brendan Fraser. He always exists, everywhere. But. The books are way better. They are young adult fantasy, but, it's not like an angsty young adult vibe. There's so much to these stories that are so—it’s so layered. And they found me at the perfect time. And I am obsessed with them. And I'm actually doing a re-read of them right now. And they're great.

[JAMIE] Cool. Thank you for sharing today. You—you did amazing. Made it through.

[KARLI] I survived it.

[JAMIE] You didn't explode. And thanks for listening, everybody. You can find us @theactbreak_podcast on Instagram or @theactbreak_ on Twitter. Twitter doesn't like it when we have the podcast. It's too many letters. A transcript is it going to be available on our website. Go to scifiohmy.com and click on podcast. Also you can find all of our backlog of episodes there, they have yet to be transcribed but we'll work on it. Feel free to follow, share or write a review, and we'll talk to you next week.

[KARLI] Talk to you later, internet friends.

Exploring Unlikability - Transcript

[JAMIE] Insert banter here. [Karli chuckles] Okay. Shake off the dust, you know, shake off the rust.

[KARLI] I can't. My hips ... lie.

[JAMIE] You're doing a lot of—Karli’s doing a lot of physical comedy for a podcast. [laughing]

[KARLI] I am. I am. I feel very wiggly. I can’t—I can't hold still.

[JAMIE] Remember, they can't see you because we're too lazy to make this into a video. 

[KARLI] Oh, yeah, way too lazy for that. 

[JAMIE] Yeah I’m not doing that. But the good news is that like, when I created my little fort I'm in right now ...

[KARLI] It does look very much like a fort. 

[JAMIE] It looks like a little kid. And I'm like, it doesn't matter because we don't do a video. Vocals only. I just like to sell myself out, and you, and be like, I'm in a blanket for it. And Karli is dancing. This is a podcast. 

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction. 

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count. 

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] Welcome back to The Act Break Podcast.

[JAMIE] That was the intro you prepared?! [both laugh] She’s all, "I prepared an intro and everything. So I am ready." [Karli laughs] That was .. that was perfect. Perfection.

[KARLI] [chuckles] Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week. No, [chuckles] I actually meant to ask you a question about it and I forgot. [Jamie laughs] So there's that.

[JAMIE] Usually, we would have a welcome. And then we do personal introductions.

[KARLI] Oh, right. [laughs]

[JAMIE] That's why. 

[KARLI] That's why it feels off. I knew it felt weird as soon as I finished I was like, that's it. And I'm like, is that? And then you gave me that look. And I'm like …

[JAMIE] What is happening?

[KARLI] Something is severely wrong. But I don't know what's wrong. I—you know, it's, it's fine. This is fine.

[JAMIE] I'm new here. [Karli laughs] Okay. Just random aside; if you've listened to all the episodes, that is something I said in a random episode, and I was going to cut.

[KARLI] And I made her keep it.

[JAMIE] Then Karli, and her mechanic friend, were like, “You have to keep that!” And it took me like an extra like five minutes of like, editing finagling to keep that [laughing] stupid line.

[KARLI] I was gonna say it was like 15 minutes of extra editing at least. 

[JAMIE] Just so I could say that stupid line. 

[KARLI] Just to keep that line.

[JAMIE] In that stupid voice. Ahhh.

[KARLI] And I'm really pleased that you care enough about what I say and my weight in this podcast.

[JAMIE] You were just so irritating.

[KARLI] That you kept it. And I felt like I won such a huge victory that day. [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] Being the editor just like god-like powers. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] I give and I take. 

[KARLI] You run away with a lil too much. You know, just really let it go to your head. It’s—it's problematic.

[JAMIE] Oh, yeah, it’s—I get just egocentric, just maniacally evil laughing. [Karli laughs] [Jamie laughs dramatic maniacally] Into the pit. Okay.

[KARLI] Let's try that again. Welcome back to the Act Break Podcast. I'm Karli, fantasy writer. Lately, I've been fantasizing about a standing desk, because my hip hurts too bad to sit down.

[JAMIE] Aww. Like a like a little, a little add on?

[KARLI] Yeah, one of my friends on Instagram just got this really fancy setup. And I'm like, ohhh. I've been eyeballing that hard.

[JAMIE] Yeah. The accompanying old lady, who is me. I am Jamie. I am mostly a science fiction writer. And I am just over here trying not to give up on my dreams. 

[KARLI] [fake inspirational voice] “Shoot for the stars.”

[JAMIE] My dreams of being a writer or a standing desk. I haven't decided. One of them will happen for sure. [laughs]

[KARLI] It's that whole [fake inspirational voice] “Shoot for the moon because if you don't then you'll land among the stars.” [regular voice] See, and that science—it’s so very science fictiony. [Karli laughs]

[JAMIE] I guess so.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] So lame. I'm sorry. I take it all back. Move along.

[JAMIE] Just rewind. [makes rewind noises with her voice]

[KARLI] I'll pretend like I never said that.

[JAMIE] We'll all pretend like you never said that.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] That's good. Move. Right. Move right along.

[JAMIE] Moving right along. Karli, we're gonna get it. We'll figure it out. Yeah, you know, you'd think like, oh, yeah, you've been doing a podcast for a while, you totally fall into a groove. You have no idea what tiny bump will throw you out of that groove. [laughs]

[KARLI] No kidding. It could be a week to week, even while you're in the thick of it. But then you take a hiatus and you're like, [self-mocking voice] what are words? I don't speak. Well.

[JAMIE] We could be in the middle of a recording. 

[KARLI] Oh, yeah. 

[JAMIE] I can have a stray thought. And then I'm like, blehh. I can't. I've never talked to people before.

[KARLI] And by people, like me. 

[JAMIE] I don't talk to her. 

[KARLI] Uhn-uh. She never talks to me. She doesn't call me in the middle of my day and go here, let me update you on my life.

[JAMIE] I was deeply compelled. [Karli laughs] I don't know why. I have a problem.

[KARLI] You don't have a problem. I have a problem because then I have to sit and listen to you. And that— [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] It's a real problem. 

[KARLI] Jamie, I care about you and your life, okay.

[JAMIE] You don't have by the way that I have to pretend.

[KARLI] [chuckles] This is true.

[JAMIE] I don't, I don't really care if you care. Just pretend for me.

[KARLI] That's all that can be expected in—in busy adult relationships. If you ever actually hang out, and then pretending to care about [laughing] one other things. 

[JAMIE] Yeah. Care, be invested.

[KARLI] It’s—it's a whole like, you didn't realize that you needed acting skills to be an adult. [laughs]

[JAMIE] This is a beautiful, beautiful segue to today's topic, [laughing] unlikable characters! 

[KARLI] So Jamie, tell us everything you've learned about yourself. [Karli laughing]

[JAMIE] Oh, so much. It's very, very layered.

[KARLI] It's a multifaceted conversation. 

[JAMIE] Pretty much. I was like, we're gonna do unlikable characters. And then I'm like, this can mean a lot of things.

[KARLI] It can.

[JAMIE] So we probably need to, like, sort out.

[KARLI] Like narrow—narrow focus a little bit.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Because unlikable characters, it's easy to be like antagonists. But I--I'm pretty sure we were on the same page, which maybe we should have checked. [Karli laughs] Like, we—I just assumed that we both knew that if we were going to talk about unlikable characters, we'd mostly be talking about protagonists. 

[KARLI] Yes. 

[JAMIE] Or like …

[KARLI] Or side characters; not antagonists or villains.

[JAMIE] Because it's kind of a given that an antagonist or villain—like you can find them everywhere. Examples are: Doloris Umbridge, Denethor, Biff. You're not supposed to like them. So it's like, why do we need to talk about that? 

[KARLI] Exactly. 

[JAMIE] That's like a villains talk. That's a whole separate thing.

[KARLI] No, if that's what you came here for, go back to season one and listen to our villains episode with Sacha. That's a fantastic conversation.

[JAMIE] It is a fantastic conversation. It is also a different type of conversation, though, because there is a difference; ’cause there are a lot of villains that are highly likeable.

[KARLI] Totally true. I'm just saying if you came here for the villain discussion, that's not this. This is talking about protagonists that are unlikable.

[JAMIE] And another quick note on the specifics of what we're getting down to, because we're talking protagonists. And there's a difference between a protagonist that is unlikable on purpose and somebody who's given us a protagonist that was unlikable on accident. 

[KARLI] Absolutely. We're talking about purposeful. 

[JAMIE] I have some examples of protagonists who are unlikable on accident. 

[KARLI] Ooo.

[JAMIE] Danny Zuko from Grease. You know, what was funny as as I looked into it; I was like, so many characters in rom-coms. 

[KARLI] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] Like so many characters are meant to be like, sympathetic. You're just like, why? Ted from How I Met Your Mother? 

[KARLI] [laughs] Yes, yes. He's on my list too.

[JAMIE] [laughing] He’s like the main protagonist. And you're like, ehh? I thought this one was so funny. And I included it was uh, Grandpa Joe from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. [laughing]

[KARLI] Oh, my gosh, that's like one of my—that’s a whole side conversation. [both laughing] That could be a whole podcast in and of itself, the Grandpa Joe discussion.

[JAMIE] Oh, man. But we are talking about unlikable on purpose.

[KARLI] The ones where you show up and you can tell that the writer is making you [laughing] uncomfortable on purpose or making you making you follow along on a stream of mistakes.

[JAMIE] And I tried to like, 'cause you know, how much I love examples, right?

[KARLI] Oh, yeah. 

[JAMIE] But there's a lot to it. So I only got the only examples I really got were … Well, the main example that I found, that's the perfect example, is the modern portrayal of Sherlock Holmes. He's written that way, on purpose. Like he’s—it’s very intentional choices being made here. The only other one that I found that I have written down here is Edmund Pevensie. 

[KARLI] Mmm, yeah. 

[JAMIE] From The Chronicles of Narnia. I want to hear your thoughts on it, because this is like a thing that we've brought up a couple of times. Let's dig deeper.

[KARLI] Let's dig in. I would also I just want to tag on Eustace, cousin Eustace, in The Chronicles of Narnia ...

[JAMIE] Yes.

[KARLI] Is also a purposefully unlikable character. And I love Eustace.

[JAMIE] And I—that’s where the line does get squishy because in instances Eustace is a protagonist.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[JAMIE] But other instances, he's an antagonist. And that happens a lot with unlikable characters where they kind of walk a line.

[KARLI] Yeah, in certain fiction. So I feel like that's also that's another thing [Jamie chuckles] that I feel like we're gonna have to unpack a little bit because if you're getting into things that are a little bit more like grimdark, then that's just that's just what you're there for. [laughs] The whole thing all of them are that way. [laughs]

[JAMIE] The more like, uh, adult novels, what is a protagonist? And what is an antagonist kind of become unimportant. If the characters are written well enough, they’re just people. They're just characters.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. The thing that I enjoy the most, when reading stories with unlikable characters, is the fact that encapsulates the representation of the range of human existence. Because there are people that are unlikable in real life, we make unlikable choices ourselves. Even if we're a likeable person, we make unlikable choices, especially according to different people's perspectives. It gives you the taste of reality in your fiction.

[JAMIE] Yeah. It makes people more believable as human beings. And I get where it's like, eh, I didn't like this because this person is so unlikable. And I'm like, well, it will depend on if it was on purpose or if it just something that was—that just happened. 

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Is there a likability because of a character trait? Or because of bad writing? Or is it contributing to the story? Is the story happening because your character is unlikable, because of choices they're making? Because I tend to enjoy it; enjoy unlikable characters. And I feel like you find them more in books than media representations. 

[KARLI] I have quite a few media; but yes, I do agree.

[JAMIE] But as far as protagonists, I found a lot of unlikable characters [chuckles] in the in the other side, but …

[KARLI] Right. Yeah, I do agree with that. I actually have a really great quote from Roxane Gay. It says, "Writers are often told a character isn't likable as literary criticism, as if a character's likability is directly proportional to the quality of a novel's writing." I found a ton of quotes from her on this topic that I was like, oh my gosh, right on, right on. [laughs] A lot of times, criticism comes in, because of unlikable characters. There is a point and a purpose in driving the story with those characters.

[JAMIE] Mhmm. The first thing that came to mind when I was thinking about unlikable characters was, um, it’s based on a British television series, Red Dwarf; but I didn't see the series. I read the novels. And I don't even know if the novels follow the series or if they're their own thing. But pretty much every single character is wildly unlikable. 

[KARLI] Yes, [both laugh] they are a mess.

[JAMIE] And then that sent me down the rabbit hole of thinking about what are the things I've noticed? And what are the things I enjoy in unlikable characters? And the first thing I think of is they have very few redeeming qualities. Like they just—when, like you're rounding out your characters, you're always like, these are their good traits. These are the bad traits, these people are usually going to have way more bad traits. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah. And that line of accepting that unlikable character is obviously subjective to everyone. There are certain lines that they cross that some people are just—that’s unacceptable for them as a reader. And that, I think, is why there's so much conflict surrounding the unlikable character trope. But—

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] I completely agree I like—I enjoy watching a character that is just a mess. I mean, they're doing the—they’re doing their thing and they just don't really have much going for them [chuckling] as far as positive things go.

[JAMIE] The other are some unlikable characters that I'll just unlike because maybe it wasn't balanced enough; because I was thinking about why do I like them? The thing I was thinking about is that an unlikable character can be selfish, or they can be rude, but they can't be both. And that's in my opinion of what I enjoy in the character. So it's like, if he's going to be rude to people, he still needs to be in some ways, selfless. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] He's a lot of times in movies, comic relief. He's the brother from The Mummy.

[KARLI] Jonathan, I love him! He’s my favorite. 

[JAMIE] He wants money, but when it comes down to life and death, he's gonna save somebody. It's always selfish, but he's not rude. Like he's not gonna like leave somebody to die for his own gain. 

[KARLI] Right, right. In the end, yeah, they'll do something to make you go, okay. They're not the villain.

[JAMIE] It usually ends up being like, you can be one of these things. You can be selfish or you can be rude, but you can't be both because then I just don't like you.

[KARLI] Yeah. I agree, mostly. I think I don't mind if they're selfish and rude, but I love it if they're honest. Like, if they're both of those things, but they're just brutally honest, I can really get behind that because the people that they're talking to are manipulative and lying. And so it stands in contrast to those characters and makes me enjoy them. Thinking about some of my favorites are in The First Law, uh, world—universe by Joe Abercrombie. And my ultimate favorite is Caul Shivers. And he is not a good person. And he, I mean, he sets out to be an optimist and life just hands him a sack full of shit and he [chuckles] just can't win. And so he just gives up and is just [laughs] … he is what he is. And there is a likability in that he accepts that he is not a good guy. And there's something about that honesty, that endears you to him, even though he [chuckles] does some really terrible things.

[JAMIE] It's that like, he kind of gave up on his redeeming qualities, kind of thing.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Like, I was going to be an optimist and a nice guy, but life kicked me one too many times?

[KARLI] Yep, right in the eye. [laughs]

[JAMIE] The other thing that I like to see is that the character will show some sort of growth, but it does not magically fix all of their problems and flaws. You still want to see them go on a journey, like an internal change of some sort. But it's like, it's just not realistic that somebody would have like one event happened in their life, and it would completely change their personality. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, we all change in after some fashion, but some don't really learn how to do better for themselves, in the midst of that change. Some people just continue making the same kinds of mistakes in new circumstances. 

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Just the reality of life. [laughs]

[JAMIE] This is such an interesting topic that even though I suggested it, I'm like, how do you unravel, like what to say or how to feel about this, because ...

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So much of it is one, a case by case basis on the character, the writer, the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I read Reincarnation Blues. By ... off the top of my head, I want to say his name is Michael Poore, but I don't remember. And it was a very engaging like wild ride of a book. But towards the end of it. I was thinking about how like, it is funny that I'm rooting for this person so much. He's not a super likable character. No, it's just like you really feel, he's relatable. Maybe that's one of the reasons one of the biggest things with unlikable characters is you're like, well that's relatable. 

[KARLI] Yeah, so not so much qualities as lack thereof. [Karli chuckles]

[JAMIE] [chuckling] Yeah. 

[KARLI] I love that about an unlikable character. Because in all reality, we as human beings, either betray ourselves or others in our day to day interactions on a consistent basis. I mean, we think of betrayal has these big like plot twist things; but in the simple—we don't stand up for ourselves or others, or we say something that is rude or selfish. You know, we don't show up for people. And it's not necessarily—sometimes it's unintentional. And sometimes it's, it's not. And there's a myriad of reasons behind it. But the reality is, is those things happen in real life. And so when we see unlikable characters, these are the kinds of people that do these things consistently, and we're like, oh, I feel like [laughing] I'm not such a bad person after all.

[JAMIE] We need these representations to make us feel seen.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Unlikable characters feel the most human to me. And when I'm reading, I want to feel like the characters are alive. I don't want cardboard cutouts and … I want to feel like I'm actually in a place that could exist and doesn't necessarily mean that I want to be their friend. [chuckling] Doesn’t mean that I you know, like want to date them or whatever. I'm not reading for that. I'm reading for the—the feeling that something could actually happen. I want to be transported into a place that feels like these characters could actually exist. And unlikable characters feel the most real to me.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I agree. That was pretty much what I came down to was just they're so realistic compared to the perfect like, don't give them any flaws, [chuckling] character.

[KARLI] Yeah. Well, and the—the characters that don't have flaws or don't have many flaws, they always leave me wondering what they're really thinking. Because I mean, let's be honest, we all have thoughts that are selfish, and we just maybe don't say them out loud. And so I think that that raw-ness—of rawness. I don't know, whatever, leaving it—of the characters that are saying and doing the things that we think, it feels more honest, than the characters that don't do any of those things.

[JAMIE] Yeah. This kind of goes along with that same idea behind the quote, you read; for some reason, a lot of people, the industry has related unlikable characters to being a bad thing. And I think that that is when it's not on purpose happens. Because then those are the ideas that come to mind when you think about that in media. I was thinking about a rom-com that I watched, it was like a throwaway rom-com. And by the end of it, it's like working towards the moment where the couple gets back together. And I found myself being like, don't get back together with her! She was awful to you. 

[KARLI] [laughing] I think I know what one ... 

[JAMIE] Move on. You deserve better. And so I see why people are like, oh, unlikable characters. And I'm like, yeah, that's not what we're [laughs] that’s not what we mean. So it’s—I see why she, like, why she was talking about that how it's like, that's, that's become like a critique of the work. But really, it's because of the character not the work as a whole. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] Is what I'm trying to say.

[KARLI] Yes, absolutely. We all struggle with wanting to be liked, and wanting to belong, and feeling as though our flaws are going to prevent us from being accepted by people. And it's just refreshing to watch or read characters that actually exhibit flaws that we either see in ourselves or others or things that we're afraid of, and watching them carry on anyways, even through things that are messy or dark or dangerous. And it helps us to—at least for me—it helps me work through my own fears and insecurities in myself, Like I—there are characters fictional, unlikable characters that have so many flaws, and are an absolute mess, that have helped me work through my own personal issues.

[JAMIE] That's why it's so great to find more of them in our writing and to try and write them.

[KARLI] Yeah. Do you have more examples of ones that you liked? No?

[JAMIE] No, I'm all done.

[KARLI] You're all exampled out? Um, a couple that just kind of popped into my head that I enjoyed watching. On screen are Andrea from The Walking Dead. I really liked her. Bernadette from Where'd You Go, Bernadette? She's great.

[JAMIE] I remember deeply, deeply relating to her. Because I didn't read the book, but I watched the movie.

[KARLI] I didn't read the book either. 

[JAMIE] And yeah, I was just like, just aw, man.

[KARLI] Yeah. And then I—as I'm reading—I’m currently reading a handful of books that have some unlikable characters in them, but I don't feel like I can fully weigh in on those characters. But there's people in The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin. There's Gideon the Ninth, and anything by Joe Abercrombie. Any character from any Joe Abercrombie book is an unlikable character on purpose. And he does it so well, but he does it to showcase just the raw honesty of just the human experience and it’s, [kisses fingertips] chef's kiss. So I have one more quote from Roxane Gay. It is: "Perhaps then unlikable characters, the ones who are the most human, are also the ones who are the most alive. Perhaps this intimacy makes us uncomfortable because we don't dare to be so alive."

[JAMIE] Ooo, that's beautiful. 

[KARLI] I liked it. 

[JAMIE] And it's perfect timing because James is flashing the wrap it up sign at me. [Jamie chuckles]

[KARLI] Oh yeah. James is kind of impatient. 

[JAMIE] He's kind of a lot. [Karli chuckles] But this week, I get to give my Two Cent Recommendation. And I am going with Raya the Last Dragon Nope, nope! That's not what it's called.

[KARLI] What is it called? [both chuckle]

[JAMIE] I--who knows what it's called. Raya and the Last Dragon, on Disney Plus. It's a family friendly action adventure. I mean, it's a family friendly, but I'll just preface this with me and my husband have watched it twice. Nary a child in sight. [Karli laughs] It is visually stunning, beautiful animation, with some of the most fantastic fight scenes I have ever seen in animation, and a great story. So if you're looking to watch a movie, check out Raya and the Last Dragon.

[KARLI] All right, thanks for listening. You can find us @theactbreak_podcast on Instagram. There we have links to take you to all the places you need to go or you can check out our website via scifiohmy.com. You can click on podcast; sign up for our newsletter. If you're listening now, you are probably already on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. So you might as well just go ahead and click follow or subscribe, like it, rate it, you know, give us a review. We hate being needy, but you know, like middle schoolers, we really need you to love us. So please love us.

[JAMIE] And more importantly, publicly show that love to other people. [chuckles]

[KARLI] That's right.

[JAMIE] Validation, please!

[KARLI] Because if you don't does it really count? [laughs]

[JAMIE] Thanks a lot. We'll talk to you next week internet friends.

Approaching Creativity 2022 - Transcript

[JAMIE] I am so glad that we've decided to double our budget for this season.

[KARLI] Oh, yeah!

[JAMIE] I feel like really now we have the room and the space to push this podcast into the next level. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Absolutely. I mean, it took so much effort to adjust all of those line items to really, like get it nailed in last year. But this year, we just had the freedom, we have the freedom to do like—the sky's the limit.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I mean, we can take on even more interns to handle things. All that—that doubling of funds. We can ... I'm thinking billboard, I think a billboard is probably the best way to market in 2022.

[KARLI] I like that, I like that.

[JAMIE] Just a single billboard.

[KARLI] Yeah, well, and [chuckles] the billboard will be made out of cardboard, obviously, with Sharpie, and it will be just down the road from my corner market.

[JAMIE] What do you, what do you mean? I thought we had—

[KARLI] Well when—you when you double zeros, It's still zero.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] I've never been that good at math. [both laugh] It’s gonna be a good season.

[KARLI] Oh, isn't it though? I can feel it.

[JAMIE] Well, you just have to manifest that energy. [laughs] I believe people when they say that, but anytime I use the term manifest, it is purely in a facetious … [laughs]

[KARLI] I can hear, can hear the snark dripping off of your voice. You can't take yourself seriously when you say that word.

[JAMIE] I can't take myself seriously. 

[KARLI] It's a good thing. Nobody takes you seriously. 

[JAMIE] That's how I prefer it. 

[KARLI] I know.

[JAMIE] Low expectations. 

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story. 

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count. 

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Hey, Karli.

[KARLI] Hi, Jamie. Welcome back. 

[JAMIE] Thanks.

[KARLI] It's been so long since I've seen your face.

[JAMIE] I know. We’ve—we've very specifically been in complete isolation from each other. 

[KARLI] Mhmm.

[JAMIE] The last time we saw each other was during the recording of the last episode.

[KARLI] Yeah, definitely haven't seen each other for months and months. I feel so deprived.

[JAMIE] I feel like there's a line for anybody who doesn't understand [both laughing] the "yes, and" quality that we're going for that like we're not just lying. We're joking. Where is the line between a lie and a bit?

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] It is— [laughs]

[JAMIE] [laughing] It’s it is comedic. Because when I talk dog doesn't bark, the second Carly opens her mouth her dog barks.

[DOG BARKS IN THE BACKGROUND]

[KARLI] My dogs do not want me to share my opinion. And I feel personally offended by that.

[JAMIE] I've recently hired your dog as one of our interns.

[KARLI] What are you paying him in, peanut butter?

[JAMIE] He's an intern, he's getting paid in  experience. He's going to put it on his doggy resume [Karli chuckles] for when he ditches you guys goes off to Hollywood. If anybody's gonna make it from The Act Break podcast, it'll probably be Karli's dog. [both laugh] We need to hire an assistant for our intern, the dog, to really build up his social media presence.

[KARLI] Absolutely. Every dog intern needs a social media manager.

[JAMIE] Yeah, we should probably call and get whoever's doing Butters'. Whoever's doing Butters' social media is doing a good job.

[KARLI] Yeah, that's on point for sure. 

[JAMIE] We'll put in a call. That's where the budget's going this year, people. 

[KARLI] I love it.

[JAMIE] Welcome to Season Two of The Act Break. Now thirty minutes or less, or your podcast is free! We had to cut some stuff down, because life is life. And—but most of our episodes will probably still be over thirty minutes.

[KARLI] But we're aiming for a little closer to that mark. We'll see how it goes. [laughing]

[JAMIE] We have a lot of guests lined up that I'm already telling myself. I'm not cutting us off at thirty minutes. Because ...

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I want to hear what these people have to say. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] Our episodes will be a little bit shorter. But we have a lot of awesome people coming up. You can expect a new episode every Thursday, pretty much until we let you know otherwise. 

[KARLI] Yeah! 

[JAMIE] And the reason we started the podcast is kind of more prevalent than ever and that is that sometimes you just need a break and you need to not feel alone and you need to last with other human beings. That is why we are here and that's what we want to do in season two. So who are we, that we're trying to do this, in case you're new. My name is Jamie. Some of you might recognize me as Sci-Fi Oh My, which is my social media handle. I am a science fiction and speculative fiction author who spent the last seven years getting to know the craft. I've finished five manuscripts, most of which are currently in various stages of editing. I've learned a lot over the last seven years. I am zero percent an expert in my field. [chuckles] But I do love talking about stories. I've met a lot of kindred souls. And that's basically what's brought me here today. Hence, I'm here. [both chuckle] I said I'm here twice, but I'm really here guys. I'm right here.

[KARLI] “I'm so there …” [laughs]

[JAMIE] “I'm so there, it's insane.”

[KARLI] And I am Karli, writer of dark fantasy and speculative fiction, you can find me @karliwritesthings on social media. I have been blowing hot and cold with writing since 2016. I've written three novels, all in various stages of editing, and have started and stopped more drafts of novels than I care to count. Okay, so maybe it's the exact number of novels that I've actually finished, but who's counting. And I also write the occasional short fiction piece, also rarely to see the red pen. During the course of my writing journeys, I have met a lot of the same very cool people, which is why we are here, making this podcast; to create this veritable water cooler situation where we can all hang out together and talk about the thing that we enjoy the most. Storytelling.

[JAMIE] Yes. So we have a couple of things that we want to talk about today. In regards to, you know, our whole approach to this thing we're gonna call 2022. I've been told it's a whole new year.

[KARLI] It's an arbitrary thing. I think, though.

[JAMIE] I really do think that because, years aren’t real. Let’s talk about our approaches. How are you approaching your creative endeavors, this—this 2022? Or what's like, the [laughing] concept of how you're approaching it?

[KARLI] My nebulous goal, plan—plan of a goal for this year, is to be more intentional with my career, moving forward. And in order to do that, I have to actually edit the things that I write. Who knew ... that you can't just write the thing and then just let it sit on your shelf and assume that people will absorb it by osmosis. 

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Okay, so you're pretty much going to be focusing on a lot of editing.

[KARLI] A lot of editing this year, I really need to get my work into the hands of my fantastic critique partners and writing group. And that is not going to happen if I don't actually edit.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's hard editing is the absolute worst. So like ...

[KARLI] I don't mind it in theory, until I actually start it.

[JAMIE] I don't mind anything in theory.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Okay, okay. All right. How about you—enough about me—let’s hear about you. And your plans for this. This—this creative approach … thing?

[JAMIE] I yeah, I would say more of like an approach than a plan because I, pretty much since last November, last NaNo ... I've been like, I need to step back and decide what I’m—what I want to do. I need to like, look at what projects I have and how much I have left to finish and then make some sort of course of action that I can undertake. And then I'll just start getting stuff done. And like, every month, no matter how much—I mean, it's been a while and [chuckling] no magical plan has revealed itself to me. Strangely enough. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] You mean the idea elves have not come and left presents ...

[JAMIE] I mean ...

[KARLI] For you, on your desk? In the form of a plan?

[JAMIE] In theory, it's all done. [Jamie laughs]

[KARLI] You know, what, how dare you? How dare you?

[JAMIE] For a long time, I've been trying to write a new manuscript every year. And that got me into a situation where I have too much, and I've said that before on the podcast. So now, the first half of this year is focusing on editing and getting three of those manuscripts to a point where I can give them to other people, and kind of forget about them for a while, clear them from my mental cue, so that I have room for new ideas. But like I was just stacking stuff on top of each other. And then like, it's that we’re—we're in different places, but we are in a similar place where we have a whole bunch of stuff, but we have to edit that stuff to get it to a point where it's worth anything. [laughing] Yeah, so I'm planning to edit. On the, on the new writing side, I'm going to focus a little bit more on shorter fiction, as—as far as approach goes, I'm also not locking myself into: I have to achieve these goals by the end of the year, or I have somehow failed. Because I have a personal life as well. And a lot of responsibilities and other stuff, just as we all do outside of our like, our—our want to be writers and published. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] So I'm like very ... much kinder to myself this year already. This is a whole different mindset of what I expect to achieve, and what I consider ... what I consider success for the year. To summarize, my approach is such that I really should do all those things on my list I've been putting off doing, [both chuckle] but I should be gentle with myself despite it. It was, it was really a button seat issue for me last year, where I'm like, I really did just need to like sit down and do the work. But I was not in a place where I had the capacity to do that. So I didn't. But now I am feeling like I am in that place. So I have to do it. [laughs]

[KARLI] Likewise.

[JAMIE] I would really like for you to take a journey with me all the way back to the start of the time when deciding to pursue writing.

[KARLI] Once upon a time, there were two naive young women.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] For me that year was 2015. For you, I think it was yeah, about the same.

[KARLI] 2016 for me. 

[JAMIE] Yeah, close enough. Years aren't real! [Karli laughs] And what we expected, like when you're when you think like, I'm gonna do this, like you have an idea of what you think is gonna happen compared to our expectations now.

[KARLI] Oh yeah.

[JAMIE] After like, kind of being a little more steeped in it, like we're real strong at this point. In the in the slog.

[KARLI] In the thick of it.

[JAMIE] Yeah. How did you—what did you think it was gonna look like, trajectory wise?

[KARLI] I mean, when I first got started, I didn't really have, I didn't have a plan. I wasn't like, I'm going to do these things. And then this is how this is gonna happen. It was like a—you write a book, and then you get an agent. And then somebody buys your book, and they publish it like, but I didn't spend a ton of time thinking about that. I was like, [silly voice] I’m just gonna write this book. [regular voice] And I just spewed words out on the page and figured that somehow it would turn into a fully formed book by magic. [both chuckle] Then as I started going, and I realized that was going to be a lot more work than that. Even still, I was like, oh, yeah, by the time I'm thirty-four, which is what I am now, let's just get real honest about the ages and won't make people do math. I don't think I can do math from what the age that I was then. And like, it's, I can't subtract from [laughing] thirty-four. [both laugh] Cuz I am that bad at math. By the time I'm thirty-four I'll totally have you know, four books published and maybe even be a New York Times bestseller; if you're going to dream, might as well dream big. The reality obviously is much more challenging. The landscape has changed. And my—my landscape—my personal landscape has changed. [Jamie laughs] Everything is different.

[JAMIE] Do you want to have said my personal landscape? [both laughing] I mean, that's up to you. But if you want you can have another take of that.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Oh, what should I rewind to?

[JAMIE] [laughing] I have no idea.

[KARLI] [laughing] Maybe we just leave that. Okay. Now, obviously, things are different. My perspective is different. I definitely am just looking at what's the next thing that I can handle. And that is editing. 

[JAMIE] Yeah. 

[KARLI] And one day I hope to still be published but my ideas for that are way different. Like I don't feel the need to have it go a certain way; a certain timeline or even a specific approach to how something gets published. I just am never going to get published if I don't edit the dang thing.

[JAMIE] The first hurdle—well the second hurdle. [both chuckle] Everybody’s always concerned about the first hurdle. But there's one right after it. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] Yeah, I decided, I'm like I do. I love stories, I want to tell stories. I similarly, I was like, I'll write this book, and then like, edit this book. And then I guess I have to query and then I'll get an agent, and then an agent will sell it. And then boom, I've done it. 

[KARLI] I have arrived.

[JAMIE] Yeah. At the at the time, I was twenty-seven. And I thought, twenty-seven, twenty-eight, twenty-nine, thirty—three years? That is plenty of time to write a book, edit it, find an agent and become a published author. Published by thirty. That's my goal. And that didn't didn't quite work out exactly that way. I'm no longer worried about being published by thirty. Because I'm no thirty ... two? I don't ... how old am I? I can't remember. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] Are you asking me? [laughs]

[JAMIE] Years ain't real.

[KARLI] What is real, then? It seems like anything, just you're using that a very convenient excuse. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Nothing is real. This is all a simulation. 

[KARLI] It's the Matrix.

[JAMIE] We're just, it's alien overlords doing experiments on us.

[KARLI] “There is no spoon.” 

[JAMIE] That's very true. But I yeah, so I was like, I think—I’m like, [silly voice] “I think it's really reasonable to be like, published by thirty.” [normal voice] And you know what, in hindsight, that might have been true if I had had more hustle. But the other part is, that idea and concept has so many things that you have no control over, you have no control over if an agent is going to like your stuff. That's like something I took from Atomic Habits, where they're like, having a goal of getting an agent is ridiculous, because you cannot control that you can get an agent. Having a goal of sending X amount of queries. That's something you can control. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] And that was something I didn't think about when I started was there's a difference between things I have control over and things that like you just kind of have to get lucky sometimes. Sure, if you have more hustle, you're going to increase your likelihood of getting lucky. 

[KARLI] Yeah. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] As opposed to now. I'm whatever age [both chuckle]. Over thirty, not published. But I—you know, I've learned so much more big thing to note is the landscape of publishing has changed dramatically from when we started writing to now. What they're looking, for what's selling. Well, well, what's selling and what they're looking for is changing constantly. But even just like the number of people looking, there's so many factors. That's like a whole different topic. Now, I am much the same, where I'm like, just looking at the things that I can control. And the next step that I need to do. It's nice to think about a big picture, but doesn't really do me any good if I'm not doing the things I need to do on a daily basis. Until I edit, until I make something polished, until I have a story worth publishing,  I'm kind of—I’m kind of in limbo. I can't be successful until I do the work. I do think that it's good to have that youthful enthusiasm in the beginning. It really is a big factor in like driving your—your dream, your goal and because, you know if we knew all the ins and outs that we know now then we probably ... or I mean, I know I would probably be like, ehh, it sounds like a lot of work. Yeah. But youthful naivete and [Jamie chuckles] and enthusiasm are actually a big asset in some regards.

[KARLI] Yeah. You got to have that new writer gumption. Otherwise, yeah, you wouldn't, you wouldn't get over the hurdle of finishing your first novel. But you know, there's more steps than that. And we’ve—we've matured in our understanding of the perspective but without that initial excited, blind faith leap, we wouldn't be where we are now. And I really, I mean, while I do wish that I had the drive to push myself a little harder in the past. I like where I'm at now. I've learned so much. I've met some amazing people. And it's made me a better writer. I just need to keep going; then taking the next step.

[JAMIE] Absolutely. Even though we don't have the youthful enthusiasm, we do—I still wanted to talk about how we plan to, or at least attempt. We plan to attempt. An attempted plan. To have positivity with your creativity, when it's hard, when things are hard. Like, and let's be real things are hard. But art has always existed and often thrives in harder times. And so when you don't have the energy to create, it's okay not to create, I feel like that's something I really learned last year. Sometimes you just got to like, be easier on yourself, take a nap. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Take two naps. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Drink some water, melt down, but then like ...

[KARLI] Then get back up there. And remember that art matters, your art matters. And there's a reason why we do this.

[JAMIE] It can feel like hard to work sometimes. But one of the things that compels me to work is usually some sort of short film. Because art can be so transformative, that I'm like, oh, this is why like, this is why we make art. And not every piece of art or thing you create needs to be. But it's just kind of like that inspiring spark that kind of keeps things going. You never know how what you produce is going to affect somebody else. And in that way, art's just important. And so I'm trying to be a little bit more positive when it comes to like, even if I'm creating [laughing] dumpster fire stories, [Karli laughs] that’s gonna be ... that's gonna have to be okay, for now. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, we often forget that. Even though our art may not be, you know," the next great American novel" that's going to transform people's lives or anything like that. Our humor, our perspective, our story can influence somebody, even if it's just to influence them to laugh. 

[JAMIE] Yeah. 

[KARLI] And in times like this, like, who doesn't need to laugh? Like everybody needs the opportunity to take a moment and remember that there are good things too. And art is an amazing way to do that. Even if it's not this really epic piece of art. If it's just this casual, fun thing that makes people have a good time, and helps them disconnect from the reality of the stress of life. And so remembering that, even if the only person that it's for is us.

[JAMIE] Yeah, well said. 

[KARLI] Thank you. [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] You're like "I'm so amazing."

[KARLI] [making incoherent "pompous" sounds]

[JAMIE] And James is giving me the wrap it up sign anyway. So it is time for our new segment, Karli.

[KARLI] Oh! Yeah. So we figure if you've stuck with us this long, you are dying to hear our two cents. So we are calling this portion, Two Cent Recommendations. Today's rec is Arcane, an adult animated action series based on the league of legends video game. You do not have to have played the video game or know anything about it in order for you to watch and enjoy it because I have never played and I loved it. The world building, the storytelling, the characters, are all phenomenal. But the animation is the most gorgeous animation I've ever seen. Mind blown. It took them six years to complete it. So a lot of work went into this show. And it was so good. I'm clearly obsessed. So you can find it on Netflix. Go watch it. Then, come and talk to me about it, please, because I want to talk all about it.

[JAMIE] I know I still haven't watched it. I've heard a lot of good things.

[KARLI] You got to do it. 

[JAMIE] I know. Well, thanks for hanging out with us. You can find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast. Uh, links to all of our old backlogs of episodes are in the description there. Or you can go to scifiohmy.com and click on podcast. [talking out of the side of her mouth] Because we don't have a podcast website yet because as we mentioned, our budget is zero. [normal voice] But since you're listening to this podcast probably on Apple or Spotify right now, feel free to hit like, follow or subscribe or, you know, write a review but only if it's a good review. 

[LAUGHTER] 

[KARLI] Those are the ones we like.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I mean if you're gonna write a bad review, but make sure you write it on somebody else’s podcast. 

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Don't do that either! 

[JAMIE] Whatever. Don't ever tell people how to live their life, Karli.

[KARLI] Listen, you keep your bad reviews yourself.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] No, absolutely. Nobody wants that. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next Thursday.

[KARLI] Bye, internet friends!