S2 Ep. 3 Deep Dive with K.C. Ash

Deep Dive with K.C. Ash - Transcript

[JAMIE] Our recordings so far have been like, right on. Like we're hitting the buttons at the same time.

[KARLI] Yay! It only took me an entire season.

[JAMIE] It’s—I don't think it was you. I think it was just everything.

[KARLI] Okay. I like that. I like that.

[JAMIE] It's much better to be everything's fault and your fault. I mean ...

[KARLI] Yeah, mhmm, always. Do you remember like those inside out, backwards days at school?

[JAMIE] I didn't go to school. [both laugh] At homeschool? You mean like, did I ever put my shirt on inside out like once or?

[KARLI] Just for fun? Just for funsies?

[JAMIE] Maybe. You talking about Spirit Week? Basically?

[KARLI] They didn't call it spirit week when I was going to school. It was just like crazy week. I don't know, you did all kinds of crazy things. 

[JAMIE] Crazy hair day and stuff. 

[KARLI] Yeah, that sort of thing.

[JAMIE] I know about these things ’cause I have nieces and nephews. 

[KARLI] Okay, great. So you you have a point of reference.

[JAMIE] I don't want people to think that I've been educated. [both laugh] Okay?

[KARLI] So you have a point of reference. Yeah, cuz you clearly would not be able to follow anything I'm about to say otherwise. 

[JAMIE] Yes. 

[KARLI] I was just gonna say that's how my brain feels right now, [laughing] preparing for this episode.

[JAMIE] Oh, inside out, upside down, ripped apart, dragged through the coals?

[KARLI] Pretty much.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Here are some pitches. I was like, "What should I call this episode?" So I'm gonna read them all to you. 

[KARLI] Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

[JAMIE] The ones that I got. I got: The Host Roast; [Karli chuckles] Cracking Open Karli; Karli in Retrospect; The Girl with the Book Dragon Tattoo; I Don't Know What to Do with My Hands; [Karli laughing] Don't Look At Me; [both laughing] And Slightly Uncomfortable Conversations. 

[KARLI] Oh, no!

[JAMIE AND KARLI] Oooh, ehhhh, ewwww.

[KARLI] Oh, God. 

[JAMIE] How you feeling? 

[KARLI] It hurts. 

[JAMIE] You gonna—feeling good about today? Aren't you?

[KARLI] Oh, boy. It's it's gonna be special. Gonna be somethin'. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] What are you saying? You're so special?

[KARLI] Well, obviously I am so special. I can't wait to talk about myself. It's my favorite thing.

[JAMIE] That's her favorite topic, everybody. Perfection.

[KARLI] Woosa.

[JAMIE] Hello, everybody. Thank you for tuning in. It’s just kind of, it's kind of an outdated reference or phrase, but I'm going to say it anyway. Because thanks for pressing play just doesn't have that magical ring to it. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] Because podcasting is basically radio now. I mean, radio still exists, but come on.

[KARLI] Radio is dead.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Video killed the radio star. 

[KARLI] [laughing] Thank you. Cause I was just about to say that.

[JAMIE] You can call me Jamie or Sci-Fi Oh My or that girl from that podcast that I occasionally listen to. Whatever. I'm not picky. I'm a sci-fi writer and an amateur podcaster. But that's enough about me. [laughing] Insert Karli's big gulp here.

[KARLI] I feel like I've said it all already.

[JAMIE] Oh, well. That does not that does not bode well. [chuckles]

[KARLI] I'm finished, right? My work here is done.

[JAMIE] I tried to ask questions that you I felt like you hadn't answered in the past.

[KARLI] The ones that I avoid like the plague on purpose? 

[JAMIE] Yes, those are probably those ones. 

[KARLI] Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for that. I feel really excited to have you as a friend.

[JAMIE] You're welcome. Today we are going to be shining a spotlight on my co-host here. It—I was, I was saying spotlight but I'm like, in Karli's mind I envision it more as that one naked lightbulb over your head and in an interrogation room. [laughing]

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah.

[JAMIE] And I swear that the inception of these episodes was not solely to make you squirm. But I knew it would. [chuckles]

[KARLI] But it's a happy byproduct for you. Thanks. 

[JAMIE] It's just important that people get to know you. So Karli, or K.C. Ash, is a grimdark fantasy writer who I have known many, many moons; before she or I even started our writing journeys. Her creativity and persistence in the pursuit of writing have helped keep me going. She is supportive; a wonderful cheerleader to a lot of people in the writing community. And today I have some questions to really help listeners get to know you and your reading preferences, writing style, influence; all that goodness that is pertinent to the podcast and people's perspective on what our perspectives are. So, there you go.

[KARLI] Thank you. That was very kind of you. Now I'm going to have to rewrite my intro for you [Jamie laughs] and actually make it nice. Ugh.

[JAMIE] You don't have to. Paddle your own canoe, Karli.

[KARLI] I was—I was kind of kidding.

[JAMIE] K.C. Ash is a contemporary [Karli laughs] romance writer. [Jamie laughs] I’ll just say a whole bunch of misinformation about you. 

[KARLI] And then people just have to guess. 

[JAMIE] It's--the time has come, Karli. Gird your loins.

[KARLI] [laughing] Gird my loins. I was gonna go with like a nursery rhyme thing.

[JAMIE] I went in a different direction. 

[KARLI] Yeah, ya sure did. 

[JAMIE] I want to talk about some reading things. Okay, I know you read a wide swath of genres. But what do you find you're drawn to the most? And why that genre?

[KARLI] I would say fantasy as a whole. There was more to the question; you said why. Disassociation? [both laugh] But seriously, escapism. I mean, the imagination, the exploration of myths and legends and fairy tales, and exploring things that can't possibly be real. And using that, to tell stories that might be ... something that you need to know about yourself or about the world, but through the lens of this magical place. Even if the magical place is a little dark and gritty. I mean, it can be anything. I'm not too picky when it comes to my fantasy. I like it all. But I just, I love the idea that there are no limits and anything can happen. It's my favorite.

[JAMIE] There is no genre that is like fantasy. Like, literally anything could happen.

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] And that's exciting. 

[KARLI] It is so exciting. I love that.

[JAMIE] Are there any themes, tropes or concepts that you like so much that when you know that that book has it, you're like, instantly hooked and willing to give it a try?

[KARLI] Anything that is not an orphan boy, chosen one, [laughing] set in medieval Europe.

[JAMIE] That's millions of books. 

[KARLI] I know. It's mainly a joke because some of my favorite books are that very trope. I just 

[JAMIE] I mean, I love a good orphan. Orphans need more love, Karli. [laughing]

[KARLI] I don't love them.

[JAMIE] They don't have parents! [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] What that's--that's how it works? Oh, oh, okay. No, but seriously, dragons. [chuckles] I love me some dragons. You got dragons in your book, I will read it! But also, not necessarily a trope, but character wise. If there are characters that are—I’m wanting to read more characters that are my age or older. Lately, that's been a huge draw for me. 

[JAMIE] Adult protagonists.

[KARLI] Adult protagonists. I’m—and honestly I'm really not too picky. I'm all over the place even in my fantasy. There are things that I can't really explain that I look at it and I’m like, that sounds amazing. Even if it's the same pitch as another book. I don't know. Like, I like fantasy. Dragons!

[JAMIE] [dramatic deep voice] Dragons. I just see that the alien gif but instead of aliens it says dragons.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Dragons! [chuckles] I love that.

[JAMIE] What type of endings do you like the most in books? Do you like them ambiguous, tragic, full circle, happily ever after, cliffhangers? I mean, there's so many different styles of endings. Obviously not. It's not like every book has to have the same and you like it. But I'm just wondering.

[KARLI] Like my absolute favorite? I mean, yes. All of them. Except for the cliffhangers. Ehh boo. [both chuckle] Ambiguous. Ambiguous has my heart and soul. If an author can pull off an ambiguous ending, they've got me for life. I want to be left wondering, I want—I don’t—and it's not the same as being dissatisfied because they didn't tie off enough things. Like, when you can do it properly, so many like satisfying things have happened in succession in the climax but then they close with this feeling of, you're really not sure what's next. You're not dissatisfied that you don't know what's next. But you just spend days, weeks—and it can, it can pop back in your head years later—and you're like, really wonder what's next, or what that meant, or I love being able to think about it.

[JAMIE] I almost feel like that is like a line between an ambiguous ending and an open ended ending. Because I have been ruined on ambiguous endings by literary speculative fiction. I've read too many of those where the end is so ambiguous that it becomes, the rest of the story has become dissatisfying because I didn't get enough answers,

[KARLI] I would just call that vague. And I think that that's just, I don't care for that. In order for it to be an effective, ambiguous ending, it can't be dissatisfying. It has to, there still has to be enough resolution in other aspects of the plot that you don't walk away going, well, why did I even read that? 

[JAMIE] Yeah. 

[KARLI] It's more a sense of contemplation that it gives you. I like that feeling of that was so good. But I also have more questions. But not in a, I can't sleep at night, because it's irritating that you didn't tie things off, kind of way. I feel like Ocean at the End of the Lane is one of my favorites that’s—that leaves you with that feeling.

[JAMIE] Do you find you read mostly new published like published in the last five to ten years or more older classics? Well, not—they don't necessarily have to be classics. But in the last thirty plus years old.

[KARLI] I used to read much wider range as far as that goes, I had a very healthy mix, I felt. But more so now I read a lot, a lot more, it's almost exclusively newer. Which, I mean, asking this question, I was like, oh, yeah, it's been a while since I've picked up something older. So I do plan to work that stuff back in. Because I think that there's a lot of value in looking at the way—'cause styles change over the years, what's popular, and it's just interesting to read different stuff.

[JAMIE] See, those were the softball questions, [Karli chuckles] because they're about reading, which is basically talking about other people's work. And now we're going to talk about writing.

[KARLI] Oof, on to the hard stuff. Okay. 

[JAMIE] So much more personal and close to home. So I appreciate that you were open to the idea of giving people insight into our psyches. It's a scary place but ...

[KARLI] Was I open to it, or were you like, you're gonna be kicked off the podcast if you don't do this?

[JAMIE] I threaten that weekly. 

[KARLI] Yeah, that's true. 

[JAMIE] You do you do as I say, Karli!

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] So really, nothing has changed. 

[JAMIE] Season two, shmeason two.

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[gulping coffee sound]

[JAMIE] I'm waiting for Karli to chug all her coffee.

[KARLI] I'm gonna sip it now.

[JAMIE] All right, I'm gonna start. What first drew you to writing and what made you feel being a writer was right for you?

[KARLI] The same as for reading. Escapism, imagination, exploration of the, of ideas and concepts and worlds, characters that I've made. The right choice for me? I could never really make up my mind what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up. But I figure with a writer, I can explore a lot of different avenues in my head. And that, I think, will suffice. Rather than just picking one thing, I'll just … I'll be a bunch of things.

[JAMIE] So it's like, still what drives you, you went into the field for the escape and wonder, and then discovered that you could keep that throughout your life because you could use it as a way to explore things. That's a great idea.

[KARLI] Well, I think drive is too strong a word. That sounds way, that sounds way too productive.

[JAMIE] Like my next question was what drives you to still want this life of being a writer? Because it's not easy.

[KARLI] Yeah, it's what keeps me interested. For sure. It's the imagination of it all, is what keeps me interested still. For sure. 

[JAMIE] Who do you consider your top three author influences?

[KARLI] I might hate you the most for this one. [Jamie chuckles] Because you know how difficult it is for me to pick favorites.

[JAMIE] My concept was smoosh these three writers together and you will get a writer that would be similar to you.

[KARLI] Yeah, perhaps.

[JAMIE] Ish. Ish.

[KARLI] I don't know. We'll see. 

[JAMIE] It's like a weird, phantom, shadow version.

[KARLI] But at the same time, I can't just pick three but I did. I did.

[JAMIE] Then you can pick three. 

[KARLI]  Eh. Uhn-uh.

[JAMIE] You can pick three because you did. You said I did. That means you can pick three.

[KARLI] Enough with your Vulcan logic. It's very painful, but I did it. In the moment, this is what I picked. And tomorrow it may be different, but here it is, as of now. Tanith Lee, Brandon Sanderson, and Joe Abercrombie.

[JAMIE] ’Cause it has to give people that idea like, I like those authors, so I should, I might potentially like Karli's work. I think those are great choices. 

[KARLI] Why thank you. 

[JAMIE] If you were going to pick a work from each of them, that—it doesn't have to be a comparative to you, but like pick one work from each of those.

[KARLI] While I do love, um, Tanith Lee's adult fiction, I have to pick her young adult series, The Claidi Journals, that like, got me super interested in the idea of writing. And then Brandon Sanderson. Oh, it's tough, but I love his debut, Elantris. I mean, I like everything that I've read by him. I pick them all. [chuckles] But if I had to pick one, that one and then Joe Abercrombie, again, all of them.

[JAMIE] Is he fairly new to you? I mean, you just started reading but you'd like been voraciously reading him. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, I've only discovered him last year. But I have read ... I'm on the sixth book of his now. 

[JAMIE] Oh, nice. 

[KARLI] And I think if I had to pick one at this point, I would pick The Heroes, although it's the one that I'm reading right now might, um, might nudge it out. But I don't know for sure ’cause I haven't finished it yet. So.

[JAMIE] Are those all part of a series that is connected?

[KARLI] All in the same universe. The trilogy is a consecutive story. 

[JAMIE] Okay. 

[KARLI] Like the, like the first three. And you don't have to read the standalones in a particular order. But honestly, you get so much value out of it because characters come back, and there's nods to stuff that happened in the other books, and so many easter eggs that it just makes the experience phenomenal. 

[JAMIE] Cool. So what has your process looked like from story conception to drafted manuscript? I know that it would be different for each one, but give us an idea.

[KARLI] Yeah, it's definitely different for each of the ones that I have completed drafting. My first one was like a Norse dark fantasy. The idea came for me—came, came—it came to me

[JAMIE] In a vision. [chuckles]

[KARLI] In a vision, in the--in the DMV of all places. You know, has, or as I like to call it, [chuckles] “Hell on Earth.” And oddly enough, it came from an idea not even in Norse mythology, it was like a different mythology. But I was like, ooh, but make it Norse. And then I just kind of like, jotted down a few notes. And it was days before NaNoWriMo. And you had convinced me to try it out. And so like, [excited voice] "I'm going to do that!" [normal voice] And it was the same year that I had decided to start writing. So I didn't know what I was doing. So I just pantsed my way through. I didn't finish NaNo. And so I like took a step back. There was also like some big like life changes. I think that that's part of why I didn't finish as well. And then I finished it during Camp NaNo the following year. Also still pantsing.

[JAMIE] So it took you like a year from conception?

[KARLI] No, six months.

[JAMIE] Oh, got it, got it. So that's a pretty quick turnover.

[KARLI] Yeah, that is a really quick turnover. That has not happened again, for me, since. I've not been able to have like, I've learned that my ideas have to simmer a little longer usually. I think that that one came so quickly, one, because of like the new writer excitement. And also, I was already very familiar with a lot of Norse mythology. So I could just like yeah, so I had a lot to draw from, I think already without really realizing that I did. 

[JAMIE] Mhmm.

[KARLI] And then I had some squishy in between attempts for other stuff that I hadn't finished. And then that kind of helped me with drafting of my second one, which is a gothic fantasy. Because I realized I tried plotting, like heavily in between because I was so mad at myself for the mess that was my pantsed first novel. [Jamie chuckles] And I thought, oh my god, well, I better plot and then I realized if I over plot then I don't want to finish it. So. So this one, I got the concept from a line in a song. It's one of my favorite songs. So I've listened to it since childhood. And this one line in particular always jumped out at me. So I had been ruminating on that for probably a couple of years but re-listening to it September of 2020, I was like, oh my gosh, and things just kind of clicked into place. And so I wrote that during NaNo that year. And I, for that one I did save the cat beats but I did like the bare minimum so that I wouldn't like overdo it for myself. And that worked great. I finished NaNo with a zero draft. So it was pretty rough, bare bones, but I made it start to finish [chuckles] which was really big deal for me, since I hadn't finished anything since that first one. So I really needed that win. Yeah. And then my third one that I finished is an urban fantasy. Or I'm calling it a sub-urban fantasy, not suburban, because it's not in suburbia. It's just in a rural setting. [laughing] It’s a, it's a vibe of urban fantasy, but it doesn't take place in a city. So I'm like, I don't know what to call it. That one also, bits of ideas kind of floating around in my head for a couple of years and another zero draft during Camp NaNo of 2021.

[JAMIE] It's a slightly more rural setting, but it has an urban feel. So it's like a rurban, [both laughing] a rurban fantasy.

[KARLI] It's a rurban fantasy. I love it. We're coining it.

[JAMIE] See you are always give me a hard time about having all these books and like you have three working on your fourth. So ...

[KARLI] I know. Uh, yeah, I just, I don't like to talk about it, ehh.

[JAMIE] You don't want people to know that like you actually have a lot of words under your belt? Like a lot. Like probably twice as many as me because all your books are twice as long.

[KARLI] I was gonna say my—I always make really long books. I think I have the most words still on that first one because it went through so many drafts and I re-draft when I edit which is just …

[Jamie and Karli in unison] Insanity. 

[KARLI] But apparently, that's a thing, so.

[JAMIE] Through all these stories, have you ever noticed any re-occurring things? Like do you like to echo themes, character traits, jokes?

[KARLI] This one was really tough for me to like sort through.

[JAMIE] I will say that I have seen certain themes in yours.

[KARLI] I'm curious to hear. I'm going to say what I'm going to say and then I'll be curious to hear your thoughts. The things that I noticed are like themes and like things that happen in my stories: nightmares, feeling trapped and breaking free, psychological terror, largely of things that are like outside of the control of the character. So you know, really light stuff. 

[JAMIE] You know, like just really mildly horrific things. [both chuckle]

[KARLI] Only slightly terrifying. And then characters wise, I know for sure that there's always one in each story that is like this hyper-idealized version of a facet of myself that [chuckle] I’ve like, amplified and made into a whole character. [both chuckle]

[JAMIE] I—that’s relatable. Like I totally see that especially like nightmares and like the dark, twisty things. Because I was like thinking about the stories I know of you. And I feel like, um, ostracized characters, protagonists that feel removed from a society or a family. So you know, they're like out there on their own, which is a really helpful trait because then they usually are in like, new situations and worlds, which is a good way to attach a reader and introduce them to new situations and worlds.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, I definitely do that. You are correct.

[JAMIE] Yeah. So the question is: Do you want to tell us anything about what you are currently working on?

[KARLI] Yeah, I actually don't mind. I was, at first it's like, oh, no, I can't talk about what I working on! Ahhh! But as I started thinking about it, I like this is a good exercise for me. And I'm also very excited about this story. I'm perhaps more excited about this story than I have been for anything I've written to date. Other than perhaps like that new writer excitement feel of the first one. Currently, this story is it's just vibes. It's, uh, it's vibe soup. It’s got mood lighting and music and like, feelings. It's a whole, it's a whole situation.

[JAMIE] [laughing] It just doesn't have words yet. 

[KARLI] [laughing] There’s no words.

[JAMIE] Everything except words.

[KARLI] Everything but words.

[JAMIE] I love a good vibe soup. 

[KARLI] Yeah, exactly. Anyways, the closest genre that I think I have found that encapsulates what I'm trying to go for at this stage is dungeon punk, which is basically just like a grittier version of steampunk or cyberpunk. But mines, mines more on the steampunk side of things. So ...

[JAMIE] Dungeon punk gives off more of like a fantasy punk feel than cyberpunk. I love that.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, I’m—I spent some time on the Google's try to find that and I really like what pops up like the descriptions of that but you know, people can go Google it themselves. It's, it's cool. My current, very rough pitch for it is if Polly Shelby from The Peaky Blinders use magic to work as a government agent in a world that feels a lot like Arcane. But you know, with like a dash of Killing Eve vibes.

[JAMIE] Beautiful. 

[KARLI] We'll see if I can deliver on that.

[JAMIE] That's exciting. It’s—I'm glad to hear that it's like, you're so excited. There's a quote that whatever you're working on should be the best thing you've ever worked on. So I love, I love that for—I love that for you, Karli! [chuckles]

[KARLI] Thank you! I love it for me, too.

[JAMIE] So we've, we've gotten through most of the hard questions. My next one I'm very excited to hear your answer for. What do you like most about being a writer?

[KARLI] This one was tough for me to sort out. But I think I've narrowed it down to the satisfaction of making stuff up in my head. You know, I didn't always know that I could do this. Growing up, I you know, I loved reading and I was a voracious reader. And you know, I just let authors make up worlds for me. And I just, I lived in those worlds. I just—forget reality. I’m—I'm here in whatever story I'm reading. But then I hit this certain stage in life where I just felt this, like mental clarity and freedom that I had never experienced before. And it literally was all of a sudden, there were all these stories in my head. And I just—it felt amazing. And so cool to think that I could make up these things and be excited about them. And then hopefully, potentially share them with people one day. And that's where, that's where the fly in the ointment. But you know ...

[JAMIE] Ahh, we're getting there. [both chuckle] So what advice do you think five years from now Karli would give you today?

[KARLI] Can I have future me voiced by Morgan Freeman?

[JAMIE] I—we don't have the budget, Karli. I have to pay your dog.

[KARLI] Dang it. I thought you said he wasn't being paid!

[JAMIE] I know, it's an under the table deal! He doesn't want to pay the taxes.

[KARLI] Ugh. That dog. I just— [laughs]

[JAMIE] [laughing] You genuinely only want to say it if Morgan Freeman is gonna say it.

[KARLI] Yeah, basically. Yes. I just want to I want him to say, "Put down the video games and walk away.”

[JAMIE] So you— [both laughing] that was such an admission. Like oh, okay, so I already know. Karli is already struggling. I'm gonna have to cut you off. 

[JAMIE] Yeah, no, it's true. No! [laughing]

[JAMIE] Meanwhile your partner and my partner are enabling you to just play hours of video games. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, definitely.

[JAMIE] What's going to inspire you more, me telling you to work or me challenging you? Because when you're gaming, I'm usually working. I know how competitive you can be.

[KARLI] Probably is gonna be you giving me a date to share writing stuff with you. So ...

[JAMIE] Wooo ...

[KARLI] Honestly, my honest—I mean, that was like the joke. The joke advice, which is also factual. 

[JAMIE] Okay. 

[KARLI] Perhaps. Maybe. I'm not admitting to anything. My real advice from future Karli is: "One word leads to another. Don't quit."

[JAMIE] And now, do you have a recommendation for us this week? 

[KARLI] Oh, yeah! Sure. So our Two Cent Recommendation for this week happens to be something that aided in my inspiration to become a writer. And it's a whole series by Cornelia Funke. It's Inkheart. Don't watch the movie. If you've watched the movie, just pretend it doesn't exist. Except for Brendan Fraser. He always exists, everywhere. But. The books are way better. They are young adult fantasy, but, it's not like an angsty young adult vibe. There's so much to these stories that are so—it’s so layered. And they found me at the perfect time. And I am obsessed with them. And I'm actually doing a re-read of them right now. And they're great.

[JAMIE] Cool. Thank you for sharing today. You—you did amazing. Made it through.

[KARLI] I survived it.

[JAMIE] You didn't explode. And thanks for listening, everybody. You can find us @theactbreak_podcast on Instagram or @theactbreak_ on Twitter. Twitter doesn't like it when we have the podcast. It's too many letters. A transcript is it going to be available on our website. Go to scifiohmy.com and click on podcast. Also you can find all of our backlog of episodes there, they have yet to be transcribed but we'll work on it. Feel free to follow, share or write a review, and we'll talk to you next week.

[KARLI] Talk to you later, internet friends.