S2 Ep.2 Exploring Unlikability

Exploring Unlikability - Transcript

[JAMIE] Insert banter here. [Karli chuckles] Okay. Shake off the dust, you know, shake off the rust.

[KARLI] I can't. My hips ... lie.

[JAMIE] You're doing a lot of—Karli’s doing a lot of physical comedy for a podcast. [laughing]

[KARLI] I am. I am. I feel very wiggly. I can’t—I can't hold still.

[JAMIE] Remember, they can't see you because we're too lazy to make this into a video. 

[KARLI] Oh, yeah, way too lazy for that. 

[JAMIE] Yeah I’m not doing that. But the good news is that like, when I created my little fort I'm in right now ...

[KARLI] It does look very much like a fort. 

[JAMIE] It looks like a little kid. And I'm like, it doesn't matter because we don't do a video. Vocals only. I just like to sell myself out, and you, and be like, I'm in a blanket for it. And Karli is dancing. This is a podcast. 

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction. 

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count. 

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] Welcome back to The Act Break Podcast.

[JAMIE] That was the intro you prepared?! [both laugh] She’s all, "I prepared an intro and everything. So I am ready." [Karli laughs] That was .. that was perfect. Perfection.

[KARLI] [chuckles] Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week. No, [chuckles] I actually meant to ask you a question about it and I forgot. [Jamie laughs] So there's that.

[JAMIE] Usually, we would have a welcome. And then we do personal introductions.

[KARLI] Oh, right. [laughs]

[JAMIE] That's why. 

[KARLI] That's why it feels off. I knew it felt weird as soon as I finished I was like, that's it. And I'm like, is that? And then you gave me that look. And I'm like …

[JAMIE] What is happening?

[KARLI] Something is severely wrong. But I don't know what's wrong. I—you know, it's, it's fine. This is fine.

[JAMIE] I'm new here. [Karli laughs] Okay. Just random aside; if you've listened to all the episodes, that is something I said in a random episode, and I was going to cut.

[KARLI] And I made her keep it.

[JAMIE] Then Karli, and her mechanic friend, were like, “You have to keep that!” And it took me like an extra like five minutes of like, editing finagling to keep that [laughing] stupid line.

[KARLI] I was gonna say it was like 15 minutes of extra editing at least. 

[JAMIE] Just so I could say that stupid line. 

[KARLI] Just to keep that line.

[JAMIE] In that stupid voice. Ahhh.

[KARLI] And I'm really pleased that you care enough about what I say and my weight in this podcast.

[JAMIE] You were just so irritating.

[KARLI] That you kept it. And I felt like I won such a huge victory that day. [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] Being the editor just like god-like powers. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] I give and I take. 

[KARLI] You run away with a lil too much. You know, just really let it go to your head. It’s—it's problematic.

[JAMIE] Oh, yeah, it’s—I get just egocentric, just maniacally evil laughing. [Karli laughs] [Jamie laughs dramatic maniacally] Into the pit. Okay.

[KARLI] Let's try that again. Welcome back to the Act Break Podcast. I'm Karli, fantasy writer. Lately, I've been fantasizing about a standing desk, because my hip hurts too bad to sit down.

[JAMIE] Aww. Like a like a little, a little add on?

[KARLI] Yeah, one of my friends on Instagram just got this really fancy setup. And I'm like, ohhh. I've been eyeballing that hard.

[JAMIE] Yeah. The accompanying old lady, who is me. I am Jamie. I am mostly a science fiction writer. And I am just over here trying not to give up on my dreams. 

[KARLI] [fake inspirational voice] “Shoot for the stars.”

[JAMIE] My dreams of being a writer or a standing desk. I haven't decided. One of them will happen for sure. [laughs]

[KARLI] It's that whole [fake inspirational voice] “Shoot for the moon because if you don't then you'll land among the stars.” [regular voice] See, and that science—it’s so very science fictiony. [Karli laughs]

[JAMIE] I guess so.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] So lame. I'm sorry. I take it all back. Move along.

[JAMIE] Just rewind. [makes rewind noises with her voice]

[KARLI] I'll pretend like I never said that.

[JAMIE] We'll all pretend like you never said that.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] That's good. Move. Right. Move right along.

[JAMIE] Moving right along. Karli, we're gonna get it. We'll figure it out. Yeah, you know, you'd think like, oh, yeah, you've been doing a podcast for a while, you totally fall into a groove. You have no idea what tiny bump will throw you out of that groove. [laughs]

[KARLI] No kidding. It could be a week to week, even while you're in the thick of it. But then you take a hiatus and you're like, [self-mocking voice] what are words? I don't speak. Well.

[JAMIE] We could be in the middle of a recording. 

[KARLI] Oh, yeah. 

[JAMIE] I can have a stray thought. And then I'm like, blehh. I can't. I've never talked to people before.

[KARLI] And by people, like me. 

[JAMIE] I don't talk to her. 

[KARLI] Uhn-uh. She never talks to me. She doesn't call me in the middle of my day and go here, let me update you on my life.

[JAMIE] I was deeply compelled. [Karli laughs] I don't know why. I have a problem.

[KARLI] You don't have a problem. I have a problem because then I have to sit and listen to you. And that— [Jamie laughs]

[JAMIE] It's a real problem. 

[KARLI] Jamie, I care about you and your life, okay.

[JAMIE] You don't have by the way that I have to pretend.

[KARLI] [chuckles] This is true.

[JAMIE] I don't, I don't really care if you care. Just pretend for me.

[KARLI] That's all that can be expected in—in busy adult relationships. If you ever actually hang out, and then pretending to care about [laughing] one other things. 

[JAMIE] Yeah. Care, be invested.

[KARLI] It’s—it's a whole like, you didn't realize that you needed acting skills to be an adult. [laughs]

[JAMIE] This is a beautiful, beautiful segue to today's topic, [laughing] unlikable characters! 

[KARLI] So Jamie, tell us everything you've learned about yourself. [Karli laughing]

[JAMIE] Oh, so much. It's very, very layered.

[KARLI] It's a multifaceted conversation. 

[JAMIE] Pretty much. I was like, we're gonna do unlikable characters. And then I'm like, this can mean a lot of things.

[KARLI] It can.

[JAMIE] So we probably need to, like, sort out.

[KARLI] Like narrow—narrow focus a little bit.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Because unlikable characters, it's easy to be like antagonists. But I--I'm pretty sure we were on the same page, which maybe we should have checked. [Karli laughs] Like, we—I just assumed that we both knew that if we were going to talk about unlikable characters, we'd mostly be talking about protagonists. 

[KARLI] Yes. 

[JAMIE] Or like …

[KARLI] Or side characters; not antagonists or villains.

[JAMIE] Because it's kind of a given that an antagonist or villain—like you can find them everywhere. Examples are: Doloris Umbridge, Denethor, Biff. You're not supposed to like them. So it's like, why do we need to talk about that? 

[KARLI] Exactly. 

[JAMIE] That's like a villains talk. That's a whole separate thing.

[KARLI] No, if that's what you came here for, go back to season one and listen to our villains episode with Sacha. That's a fantastic conversation.

[JAMIE] It is a fantastic conversation. It is also a different type of conversation, though, because there is a difference; ’cause there are a lot of villains that are highly likeable.

[KARLI] Totally true. I'm just saying if you came here for the villain discussion, that's not this. This is talking about protagonists that are unlikable.

[JAMIE] And another quick note on the specifics of what we're getting down to, because we're talking protagonists. And there's a difference between a protagonist that is unlikable on purpose and somebody who's given us a protagonist that was unlikable on accident. 

[KARLI] Absolutely. We're talking about purposeful. 

[JAMIE] I have some examples of protagonists who are unlikable on accident. 

[KARLI] Ooo.

[JAMIE] Danny Zuko from Grease. You know, what was funny as as I looked into it; I was like, so many characters in rom-coms. 

[KARLI] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[JAMIE] Like so many characters are meant to be like, sympathetic. You're just like, why? Ted from How I Met Your Mother? 

[KARLI] [laughs] Yes, yes. He's on my list too.

[JAMIE] [laughing] He’s like the main protagonist. And you're like, ehh? I thought this one was so funny. And I included it was uh, Grandpa Joe from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. [laughing]

[KARLI] Oh, my gosh, that's like one of my—that’s a whole side conversation. [both laughing] That could be a whole podcast in and of itself, the Grandpa Joe discussion.

[JAMIE] Oh, man. But we are talking about unlikable on purpose.

[KARLI] The ones where you show up and you can tell that the writer is making you [laughing] uncomfortable on purpose or making you making you follow along on a stream of mistakes.

[JAMIE] And I tried to like, 'cause you know, how much I love examples, right?

[KARLI] Oh, yeah. 

[JAMIE] But there's a lot to it. So I only got the only examples I really got were … Well, the main example that I found, that's the perfect example, is the modern portrayal of Sherlock Holmes. He's written that way, on purpose. Like he’s—it’s very intentional choices being made here. The only other one that I found that I have written down here is Edmund Pevensie. 

[KARLI] Mmm, yeah. 

[JAMIE] From The Chronicles of Narnia. I want to hear your thoughts on it, because this is like a thing that we've brought up a couple of times. Let's dig deeper.

[KARLI] Let's dig in. I would also I just want to tag on Eustace, cousin Eustace, in The Chronicles of Narnia ...

[JAMIE] Yes.

[KARLI] Is also a purposefully unlikable character. And I love Eustace.

[JAMIE] And I—that’s where the line does get squishy because in instances Eustace is a protagonist.

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[JAMIE] But other instances, he's an antagonist. And that happens a lot with unlikable characters where they kind of walk a line.

[KARLI] Yeah, in certain fiction. So I feel like that's also that's another thing [Jamie chuckles] that I feel like we're gonna have to unpack a little bit because if you're getting into things that are a little bit more like grimdark, then that's just that's just what you're there for. [laughs] The whole thing all of them are that way. [laughs]

[JAMIE] The more like, uh, adult novels, what is a protagonist? And what is an antagonist kind of become unimportant. If the characters are written well enough, they’re just people. They're just characters.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. The thing that I enjoy the most, when reading stories with unlikable characters, is the fact that encapsulates the representation of the range of human existence. Because there are people that are unlikable in real life, we make unlikable choices ourselves. Even if we're a likeable person, we make unlikable choices, especially according to different people's perspectives. It gives you the taste of reality in your fiction.

[JAMIE] Yeah. It makes people more believable as human beings. And I get where it's like, eh, I didn't like this because this person is so unlikable. And I'm like, well, it will depend on if it was on purpose or if it just something that was—that just happened. 

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Is there a likability because of a character trait? Or because of bad writing? Or is it contributing to the story? Is the story happening because your character is unlikable, because of choices they're making? Because I tend to enjoy it; enjoy unlikable characters. And I feel like you find them more in books than media representations. 

[KARLI] I have quite a few media; but yes, I do agree.

[JAMIE] But as far as protagonists, I found a lot of unlikable characters [chuckles] in the in the other side, but …

[KARLI] Right. Yeah, I do agree with that. I actually have a really great quote from Roxane Gay. It says, "Writers are often told a character isn't likable as literary criticism, as if a character's likability is directly proportional to the quality of a novel's writing." I found a ton of quotes from her on this topic that I was like, oh my gosh, right on, right on. [laughs] A lot of times, criticism comes in, because of unlikable characters. There is a point and a purpose in driving the story with those characters.

[JAMIE] Mhmm. The first thing that came to mind when I was thinking about unlikable characters was, um, it’s based on a British television series, Red Dwarf; but I didn't see the series. I read the novels. And I don't even know if the novels follow the series or if they're their own thing. But pretty much every single character is wildly unlikable. 

[KARLI] Yes, [both laugh] they are a mess.

[JAMIE] And then that sent me down the rabbit hole of thinking about what are the things I've noticed? And what are the things I enjoy in unlikable characters? And the first thing I think of is they have very few redeeming qualities. Like they just—when, like you're rounding out your characters, you're always like, these are their good traits. These are the bad traits, these people are usually going to have way more bad traits. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah. And that line of accepting that unlikable character is obviously subjective to everyone. There are certain lines that they cross that some people are just—that’s unacceptable for them as a reader. And that, I think, is why there's so much conflict surrounding the unlikable character trope. But—

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] I completely agree I like—I enjoy watching a character that is just a mess. I mean, they're doing the—they’re doing their thing and they just don't really have much going for them [chuckling] as far as positive things go.

[JAMIE] The other are some unlikable characters that I'll just unlike because maybe it wasn't balanced enough; because I was thinking about why do I like them? The thing I was thinking about is that an unlikable character can be selfish, or they can be rude, but they can't be both. And that's in my opinion of what I enjoy in the character. So it's like, if he's going to be rude to people, he still needs to be in some ways, selfless. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] He's a lot of times in movies, comic relief. He's the brother from The Mummy.

[KARLI] Jonathan, I love him! He’s my favorite. 

[JAMIE] He wants money, but when it comes down to life and death, he's gonna save somebody. It's always selfish, but he's not rude. Like he's not gonna like leave somebody to die for his own gain. 

[KARLI] Right, right. In the end, yeah, they'll do something to make you go, okay. They're not the villain.

[JAMIE] It usually ends up being like, you can be one of these things. You can be selfish or you can be rude, but you can't be both because then I just don't like you.

[KARLI] Yeah. I agree, mostly. I think I don't mind if they're selfish and rude, but I love it if they're honest. Like, if they're both of those things, but they're just brutally honest, I can really get behind that because the people that they're talking to are manipulative and lying. And so it stands in contrast to those characters and makes me enjoy them. Thinking about some of my favorites are in The First Law, uh, world—universe by Joe Abercrombie. And my ultimate favorite is Caul Shivers. And he is not a good person. And he, I mean, he sets out to be an optimist and life just hands him a sack full of shit and he [chuckles] just can't win. And so he just gives up and is just [laughs] … he is what he is. And there is a likability in that he accepts that he is not a good guy. And there's something about that honesty, that endears you to him, even though he [chuckles] does some really terrible things.

[JAMIE] It's that like, he kind of gave up on his redeeming qualities, kind of thing.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Like, I was going to be an optimist and a nice guy, but life kicked me one too many times?

[KARLI] Yep, right in the eye. [laughs]

[JAMIE] The other thing that I like to see is that the character will show some sort of growth, but it does not magically fix all of their problems and flaws. You still want to see them go on a journey, like an internal change of some sort. But it's like, it's just not realistic that somebody would have like one event happened in their life, and it would completely change their personality. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, we all change in after some fashion, but some don't really learn how to do better for themselves, in the midst of that change. Some people just continue making the same kinds of mistakes in new circumstances. 

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Just the reality of life. [laughs]

[JAMIE] This is such an interesting topic that even though I suggested it, I'm like, how do you unravel, like what to say or how to feel about this, because ...

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So much of it is one, a case by case basis on the character, the writer, the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I read Reincarnation Blues. By ... off the top of my head, I want to say his name is Michael Poore, but I don't remember. And it was a very engaging like wild ride of a book. But towards the end of it. I was thinking about how like, it is funny that I'm rooting for this person so much. He's not a super likable character. No, it's just like you really feel, he's relatable. Maybe that's one of the reasons one of the biggest things with unlikable characters is you're like, well that's relatable. 

[KARLI] Yeah, so not so much qualities as lack thereof. [Karli chuckles]

[JAMIE] [chuckling] Yeah. 

[KARLI] I love that about an unlikable character. Because in all reality, we as human beings, either betray ourselves or others in our day to day interactions on a consistent basis. I mean, we think of betrayal has these big like plot twist things; but in the simple—we don't stand up for ourselves or others, or we say something that is rude or selfish. You know, we don't show up for people. And it's not necessarily—sometimes it's unintentional. And sometimes it's, it's not. And there's a myriad of reasons behind it. But the reality is, is those things happen in real life. And so when we see unlikable characters, these are the kinds of people that do these things consistently, and we're like, oh, I feel like [laughing] I'm not such a bad person after all.

[JAMIE] We need these representations to make us feel seen.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Unlikable characters feel the most human to me. And when I'm reading, I want to feel like the characters are alive. I don't want cardboard cutouts and … I want to feel like I'm actually in a place that could exist and doesn't necessarily mean that I want to be their friend. [chuckling] Doesn’t mean that I you know, like want to date them or whatever. I'm not reading for that. I'm reading for the—the feeling that something could actually happen. I want to be transported into a place that feels like these characters could actually exist. And unlikable characters feel the most real to me.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I agree. That was pretty much what I came down to was just they're so realistic compared to the perfect like, don't give them any flaws, [chuckling] character.

[KARLI] Yeah. Well, and the—the characters that don't have flaws or don't have many flaws, they always leave me wondering what they're really thinking. Because I mean, let's be honest, we all have thoughts that are selfish, and we just maybe don't say them out loud. And so I think that that raw-ness—of rawness. I don't know, whatever, leaving it—of the characters that are saying and doing the things that we think, it feels more honest, than the characters that don't do any of those things.

[JAMIE] Yeah. This kind of goes along with that same idea behind the quote, you read; for some reason, a lot of people, the industry has related unlikable characters to being a bad thing. And I think that that is when it's not on purpose happens. Because then those are the ideas that come to mind when you think about that in media. I was thinking about a rom-com that I watched, it was like a throwaway rom-com. And by the end of it, it's like working towards the moment where the couple gets back together. And I found myself being like, don't get back together with her! She was awful to you. 

[KARLI] [laughing] I think I know what one ... 

[JAMIE] Move on. You deserve better. And so I see why people are like, oh, unlikable characters. And I'm like, yeah, that's not what we're [laughs] that’s not what we mean. So it’s—I see why she, like, why she was talking about that how it's like, that's, that's become like a critique of the work. But really, it's because of the character not the work as a whole. 

[KARLI] Yeah. 

[JAMIE] Is what I'm trying to say.

[KARLI] Yes, absolutely. We all struggle with wanting to be liked, and wanting to belong, and feeling as though our flaws are going to prevent us from being accepted by people. And it's just refreshing to watch or read characters that actually exhibit flaws that we either see in ourselves or others or things that we're afraid of, and watching them carry on anyways, even through things that are messy or dark or dangerous. And it helps us to—at least for me—it helps me work through my own fears and insecurities in myself, Like I—there are characters fictional, unlikable characters that have so many flaws, and are an absolute mess, that have helped me work through my own personal issues.

[JAMIE] That's why it's so great to find more of them in our writing and to try and write them.

[KARLI] Yeah. Do you have more examples of ones that you liked? No?

[JAMIE] No, I'm all done.

[KARLI] You're all exampled out? Um, a couple that just kind of popped into my head that I enjoyed watching. On screen are Andrea from The Walking Dead. I really liked her. Bernadette from Where'd You Go, Bernadette? She's great.

[JAMIE] I remember deeply, deeply relating to her. Because I didn't read the book, but I watched the movie.

[KARLI] I didn't read the book either. 

[JAMIE] And yeah, I was just like, just aw, man.

[KARLI] Yeah. And then I—as I'm reading—I’m currently reading a handful of books that have some unlikable characters in them, but I don't feel like I can fully weigh in on those characters. But there's people in The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin. There's Gideon the Ninth, and anything by Joe Abercrombie. Any character from any Joe Abercrombie book is an unlikable character on purpose. And he does it so well, but he does it to showcase just the raw honesty of just the human experience and it’s, [kisses fingertips] chef's kiss. So I have one more quote from Roxane Gay. It is: "Perhaps then unlikable characters, the ones who are the most human, are also the ones who are the most alive. Perhaps this intimacy makes us uncomfortable because we don't dare to be so alive."

[JAMIE] Ooo, that's beautiful. 

[KARLI] I liked it. 

[JAMIE] And it's perfect timing because James is flashing the wrap it up sign at me. [Jamie chuckles]

[KARLI] Oh yeah. James is kind of impatient. 

[JAMIE] He's kind of a lot. [Karli chuckles] But this week, I get to give my Two Cent Recommendation. And I am going with Raya the Last Dragon Nope, nope! That's not what it's called.

[KARLI] What is it called? [both chuckle]

[JAMIE] I--who knows what it's called. Raya and the Last Dragon, on Disney Plus. It's a family friendly action adventure. I mean, it's a family friendly, but I'll just preface this with me and my husband have watched it twice. Nary a child in sight. [Karli laughs] It is visually stunning, beautiful animation, with some of the most fantastic fight scenes I have ever seen in animation, and a great story. So if you're looking to watch a movie, check out Raya and the Last Dragon.

[KARLI] All right, thanks for listening. You can find us @theactbreak_podcast on Instagram. There we have links to take you to all the places you need to go or you can check out our website via scifiohmy.com. You can click on podcast; sign up for our newsletter. If you're listening now, you are probably already on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. So you might as well just go ahead and click follow or subscribe, like it, rate it, you know, give us a review. We hate being needy, but you know, like middle schoolers, we really need you to love us. So please love us.

[JAMIE] And more importantly, publicly show that love to other people. [chuckles]

[KARLI] That's right.

[JAMIE] Validation, please!

[KARLI] Because if you don't does it really count? [laughs]

[JAMIE] Thanks a lot. We'll talk to you next week internet friends.