S2 Ep.7 Success Vs. Fame, with A.P. Thayer

Success Vs Fame - Transcript

[KARLI] This episode brought to you by coffee.

[JAMIE] Coffee is our biggest sponsor, all of our energy comes from coffee. The sound that occasionally comes from your audio makes me feel like you went to a field of cicadas.

[KARLI] Yes, I was gonna say, insects everywhere. I mean, I like bugs, but not that much. I don't want them with me everywhere I go.

[JAMIE] I like what bugs do, [Karli chuckles] but I prefer them not to be near me. Literally last night, I was sitting on the couch and I saw a spider slowly dropping down—not that slowly actually [both laugh]—dropping down from the ceiling and it landed on my coffee table. And I'm not gonna lie. I choked. And there's been so many times like I will just straight squish a spider with my bare hand. But for some reason I was looking for something to squish it, and everything I looked at was something you do not want to slam. [both chuckle] And that sucker was fast and he was gone and he is still out there today. [Karli laughs] And I have not stopped thinking about him. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] He's with you in your thoughts, always.

[JAMIE] Yeah, the hub's was like, what just happened? Are you okay? Like he saw I was like, Yeah, I didn't I don't know what I don't know what I was doing. I choked. [laughing] There’s nothing else to say.

[KARLI] So really, what I've done is I have gone out into the field and searched for cicadas and I have them in my office.

[JAMIE] You released them.

[KARLI] Just to screw with you.

[JAMIE] That's a level of dedication. It’s just an epic amount of pranking.

[KARLI] See ya, see you really like to commit to your bits I really like to commit to my pranks.

[JAMIE] [laughing] She’s a regular Winston.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] Why is this the only day he hasn't been two minutes early? [laughs]

[KARLI] Well technically he could be two minutes early still it is 10:57. So he has one minute left to be two minutes early.

[JAMIE] I'm gonna be so disappointed… Are you recording your audio yet? Because we shouldn't be funny until—oh boy.

[JAMIE AND KARLI LAUGH]

[A.P.] Welcome to The Act Break Podcast.

[JAMIE] Perfect. Comedy gold. What's behind me is literally a mattress and then to the side I have the boxspring to like absorb the noise but A.P.’s level of commitment is—is next level.

[A.P.] It's kind of warm in these uh, rhinos.

[JAMIE] It's, it's kind of making me uncomfortable.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] What is A.P. doing under his blanket? We don't want to know.

[JAMIE] He's still looking for the mouse he's not recording yet.

[A.P.] I better sound f*@%ing amazing.

[JAMIE] You do.

[KARLI] You do actually.

[A.P.] Welcome to my ASMR channel.

[KARLI] Are you recording yet?

[A.P.] Yes, I've been recording. I record everything I do for posterity sake. [Jamie and Karli laugh] I wish I could see you guys.

[JAMIE] You don't have to stay in there.

[KARLI] Get out of there. We want to see your face.

[A.P.] It's very warm. [laughs]

[JAMIE] I was gonna say it's gonna get real hot real fast.

[KARLI] A.P.'s gonna pass out because he has no oxygen.

[JAMIE] It does sound nice. [Karli laughs] But maybe—

[A.P.] I put a towel down. You know? [stage whisper] Cause I get sweaty when I talk about writing. [normal voice] I get excited.

[JAMIE] And now I have to click explicit on this episode. We're slightly changing the structure

[KARLI] And apologies for not warning you that in advance.

[JAMIE] I don't apologize. I retract Karli's apology. [A.P. and Karli laugh]

[A.P.] All right. I'm ready for our topic on medieval infrastructure.

[JAMIE] I'm sorry, I prepared for 19th century waterways.

[A.P.] Damn.

[KARLI] You all are the worst. This episode is about dragons. [A.P. and Jamie chuckle] Come on. Get it together.

[A.P.] I'm sorry. I'm here to record a podcast episode. Could we please take this seriously?

[JAMIE] You came to the wrong podcast, my friend. [A.P. and Karli laugh]

[KARLI] Welcome back to The Act Break where today we're putting the internet friends and other stuff into The Act Break. I'm Karli. My goal in life is to be infamous over famous and success is a young gun's game.

[JAMIE] I'm Jamie. I'm a science fiction, fantasy, and speculative fiction writer. I'm incredibly successful, just not professionally.

[KARLI] Today's internet friend, some of you will recognize. He is a short fiction, speculative fiction writer, coffee lover. Welcome back, A.P.

[A.P.] Thank you.

[KARLI] And then today's other stuff is talking about success and fame. What are they? What do they mean to us? What could they mean to anybody? Here we are. Are you guys excited?

[A.P.] Very excited. Thanks for having me.

[JAMIE] Uh, I'm a little lukewarm. [A.P. chuckles] We’re real rusty A.P., if you can't tell, I mean, I guess this isn't that different than what you would have experienced in the past?

[A.P.] It all seems pretty normal.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I—maybe I just keep on telling myself that because I hope it gets better.

[KARLI] Okay, all right. All right. On topic. Are we ready? Ready? Are we ready for this? So when we are discussing this topic, I feel like there's a lot of conversation about this, really. Success versus fame. What do we mean, when we talk about success. For you, what does what does success mean?

[A.P.] I actually wanted to start with fame? Because I feel like that one's a little easier to tackle.

[KARLI] Do it.

[A.P.] Mostly because I have a lot of shit to say about fame. Because it's kind of like nebulous and doesn't mean much. It's like a… it's like a fake thing. Like, oh, I want to be famous. Like, what does that even mean? Like? How do you, how do you quantify fame? You know?

[KARLI] Yeah, famous for what?

[JAMIE] Yeah, can I? I like dictionaries and Wikipedia. [A.P. and Karli laugh]

[KARLI] See, I don't write down definitions of anything. Because I know Jamie will do it.

[JAMIE] I'm just saying it's being known or talked about by many people, originally, on account of an achievement or a talent. And I feel that is no longer a requirement.

[KARLI] That's no longer the case.

[A.P.] Yeah. But also like, what is many people?

[JAMIE] I feel like that's also changed with the times.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. With the advent of social media, it has adjusted the meeting—the meaning of fame.

[A.P.] Yeah. So that's why like, fame is just like, I don't know, that's such a weird thing to like... To like, want to be like, oh, I want to be famous. Like, that's not concrete enough for me. Like, that doesn't tell me anything about you, or what you want, or what that means to you. It's, it's like, it almost feels like bad 80s movie writing, you know?

[KARLI] Yeah. [Jamie and Karli chuckle] Well, and it feels so like you said, it's nebulous. It's technically out of your control whether or not you become famous.

[A.P.] That's also true.

[KARLI] Because you can you all the same people out there doing all the same things, and one gets viral views and the other one doesn't, and why? You know, something hit at the right time, they said just the right thing we did just the right or wrong or dumb thing or whatever. How—you can't go I'm going to be famous. Here are some actionable steps to become that way.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] This made me think of, which—I haven't watched the whole show is only recently became available on Netflix—it's Bo Burnham's show from way back in the day, and it's called Zach Stone Is Gonna Be Famous. And the whole premise is that he is somebody who has no art, nothing to offer the world. All he wants is to get famous.

[A.P.] If you're viral or you're famous like that, I feel like that's just like a blip. Like you have to like capitalize on something or like do something with it. Otherwise, it just doesn't like, you're talked about for a little bit. And then you're gone. That's such an underwhelming thing to want. For me.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it ties together with the control. You don't have any control over that. There's no way to like set a goal. If you're not, if you're just trying to be famous for anything.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah, well and fame is fickle, it's subject to the whims of the masses. So even if you are really good at a thing that you become famous for, who's saying that you won't be famous for it tomorrow… or you will still be famous for tomorrow, however you want to format that sentence. [all chuckle] Choose your own sentence structure. Clearly, we all see pretty—we're pretty eye to eye, on the on the fame of it all.

[A.P.] Yeah. And again, I want to be clear that I'm not trying to like, this is my own viewpoint for fame for myself. Like I think people can probably be famous and want to be famous and make it work for them. And it's fine. But like, I personally don't get it. I don't think it works for me. I don't think it's something that I—it's certainly not something that I think about it's not something that I you know, plan my life around or plan goals around. Because like you said, how can you?

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] One of the reasons why like I always think about like the fame versus success is because when I first started telling people like, oh, I'm a writer, I had a lot of people say, "Oh, well, I hope that you can be a famous writer someday." And I'm like ehhh. [A.P. chuckles] I don't say to them, but I'm like, I'm not too worried about being a famous author. I just would like to be a successful author.

[KARLI] Thanks for the sentiment, but no thanks. [Jamie and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's very much like what does that mean?

[KARLI] Yeah, well, I think famous But one of the things that really stuck out to me with the idea is what do—what are people setting out for when they want to be famous? And what I think people really want is recognition. And then what they end up getting instead is attention. And it's not the same thing. So, you know, to segue, Jamie tried to segue it and I pulled it back. [A.P. and Jamie chuckle] Success. Good, good call. And starting with fame there, A.P. Now we can move into, what is—what is success... mean? At least to us? And and what do we feel like, how do we feel like that differs from fame? I feel like it's going to be pretty apparent when we define success, but...

[A.P.] Well, do we have a definition? Do you wanna hit us with that?

[KARLI] Do we! [A.P. and Karli chuckle]

[JAMIE] I do happen to have a definition for success and accomplishment of any aim, goal or purpose. And like way back, it used to, like success could mean a good or bad outcome. It was like, but now it's, it's more of like good outcomes like success rate.

[A.P.] What is a bad success?

[KARLI] Can you elaborate on that?

[JAMIE] Let's see, I wrote it down.

[A.P.] I was successfully shot in the face. [Karli wheeze laughs]

[JAMIE] Well, they had poor success.

[A.P.] Oh, okay.

[KARLI] I see. I see. That tracks.

[A.P.] Alright, that makes sense.

[KARLI] We don't say that anymore.

[JAMIE] Yeah, we don't, we don't use it the same way.

[A.P.] I wish you poor success in your ventures. [Jamie and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE] [mock British accent] I did wish them success, but it was of the poor variety. [all laugh] [normal voice] So achievement of an aim goal or purpose.

[A.P.] And I think we were kind of like kidding on this. Like, obviously, it's stuff that's in your control. It's like tangible, quantifiable things. It's like the intro question is like, do you want to be famous? Yes. Okay. And so what does fame mean to you? And that's when you start talking about success. So if it's in the literature world, it's like, oh, it's x many books sold. Or if my book gets made into a movie, or if I win a Hugo. Or if—things that you can actually check off a list.

[JAMIE] Yeah, like fame, oh, a whole bunch of people know me, it's kind of the same thing. Whereas success can look different to every different person. You get to set up your own goals and decide what success is.

[A.P.] And I think it also implies like, it's something like continuous, it's something you keep working towards, like you hit a milestone and you keep moving forward. It's like, it evolves.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Yeah. I have a—were it’s like, you can have multiple goals in different avenues. And then you can have push goals. When you reach those goals. You set new ones.

[A.P.] Life is a Kickstarter. [Karli laughs]

[KARLI] I like that. Yeah. I think, you know, with fame, it's, it's notoriety. And with success, it's more of like a lifestyle. You're building this life for yourself. That, you know, some people as a byproduct of success become famous.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] But not necessarily.

[A.P.] And while you were just saying that, I was thinking that, like, I don't think it's necessarily always the case, but I think success is maybe like inwards too. It's not just like, oh, how much attention am I getting to be famous? It's like, oh, what have I accomplished that I can be proud of? Or like, I'm looking at myself, how have I grown?

[KARLI] That's how I see success. I think it's a personal satisfaction of tangible, achievable things for yourself.

[A.P.] I just had a thought come to me like fame is what my mom wants for me. Success is what I keep trying to convince her I'm doing.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Oh, I love that. That's good. Defining. I mean, the difference is pretty clear. I think, between the two, when you're examining it for yourself, how do you... How do you figure out what your personal goals are in order to get you to that point of, I feel like I'm successful?

[A.P.] Ooo, that's a different way of asking. Because, like, do I feel successful? [Karli laughs] Or have I achieved successes, you know? [laughs]

[KARLI] Either. Both. It's—it is interesting to think about it like that.

[A.P.] I think feeling successful is going to be really hard to achieve. But let's not, let's not get into like mental health issues.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Just touch on it there. We're gonna leave it and move on.

[A.P.] Yeah. If you know, if I'm making a list of goals that I have, and I'm achieving them, and then I'm successful in those goals, then that's great. That's me succeeding in the things I'm setting out to do. And all those things are hopefully building towards something.

[KARLI] Yeah. Um, Jamie, do you have a thought there?

[JAMIE] That was just reminded me of my intro where I'm like, I feel very successful in life but not as much professionally. Because, like, it's that same thing where you're like, Well, yeah, if I'm setting these goals, and I'm hitting these goals, that's an accomplishment. Does that make me feel successful? Not necessarily. And I think that that's maybe where like, you dip your toe into the quote unquote, fame, or the more—less fame, more recognition. Sometimes a little bit of recognition can give that sense of success. And I do agree, like you guys said, it's more of an inward thing. Like you have to decide like, I do feel successful. But it’s a little bit of an outward thing too. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[A.P.] Yeah, it is nice to get recognition. You're right.

[JAMIE] I can't help it. I just...

[A.P.] I know, we're not supposed to need like outside validation. But damn does it feel good.

[KARLI] It does.

[JAMIE] Right. I feel like, you don't only need it. But as artists, like we need some. We need some outside recognition. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. We don't enjoy creating in a vacuum.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Because we need those little bits of success to kind of give us the endorphins to keep going.

[KARLI] Yeah. Well, and I think it's a great uh… I don't know, how do you call it like, it's, it's like a test of am I doing what I think I'm doing? Am I, you know, is my writing style, what I actually think it is, are people—like, what do people see when they see my art? And am I actually doing that? Or am I doing something totally different that I wasn't even thinking about? And then, am I okay with that? Is that something I want to keep doing? Or do I need to recalibrate?

[A.P.] That's a good point. It's like, I'm doing all these things. I'm the shit. And then it's like, wow, your writing is terrible. [Karli and Jamie laugh] You’re like, Oh, I should adjust.

[KARLI] [chuckling] I didn't even mean it from the perspective of whether it's good or bad, but I even mean, like, if you think that you're writing horror, and really, you're writing like satire, then you know, you're like, okay, well, maybe, maybe I'm off by a wide margin. [all chuckle] So with that, I guess, you know, we're talking a lot about for our—for ourselves, which is great. But I'm curious, because how do we come about defining success for ourself? If we don't already have there has to be some sort of a um, is litmus test the right, right word here, where we we look at other people that we think are successful. So how do we, how do we compare it in our own minds for ourselves? Does that make sense?

[A.P.] Yeah, I'm glad you brought up other people. Because I think comparison is just horrible. Comparing your own achievements, and goals and all that, like, I mean, you can't exist in a vacuum, like you said, but you're on your own journey. You can't, you're in competition with yourself, not anyone else.

[JAMIE] Yeah, there's a saying it's, "Comparison is the thief of joy."

[A.P.] There you go. Yeah.

[JAMIE] And it's very true, because it's like you—everybody comes from a different background, a different experience. They've gotten different opportunities. So it's like comparing apples to a Ferrari. Like, there's just too much, too many factors, to compare one's journey to anyone else's.

[KARLI] True. And I definitely am glad that we did touch on that. But I think the question I'm trying to ask is, how do you come up with what success means to you without looking at other people? Because I mean, we obviously all have our own inspirations where we're like, I want to be a writer. Well, why? Because we read books that we loved, that we're like, I want to do that thing. And so we look at somebody and we go, when you pointed that, and then you can say, I think they're a successful writer. And obviously, it's subjective. But if we didn't have that to start as like a launching off point, we couldn't come up with our idea of success if we couldn't look at something and say that's successful, and that's not. Does that make sense?

[A.P.] Yeah, that's interesting, because...

[KARLI] Or am I going way out in the weeds here? [A.P. and Karli laugh] I tend to do that.

[A.P.] As you're asking this question. I'm like thinking about my own goals and successes. And I don't think I can point to one person or like, specific people, I have, like, general, more nebulous things that I'm like, yeah, that's what I want for success. But it's not like I'm like, oh, I want to be Joe Abercrombie. Like I don't know anything about—I mean, obviously, I think he sells a lot of books and is able to do that full time, and that's a good thing. But it's not like I'm like, I want to be Joe Abercrombie. Or I want to do X, Y, Z that this other person is doing.

[JAMIE] Yeah, I understand like where you're coming from, but I don't understand the question.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I don't—I don't know that I understand the question, Jamie You should know me well enough by now.

[JAMIE] Well, then I don't have any answer. [A.P. and Jamie laugh]

[KARLI]  That's fair. That's fair. I just wanted to pose some, some—I don't know.

[JAMIE] You bring up a lot of good things.

[KARLI] Philosophically.

[A.P.] Yeah, I mean, I sort of get the question and I'm trying to think about it. I just think that I, that's not how I came to my list of things that I want to accomplish. It's—yeah, I don't know. I think it's like the greater science fiction and fantasy publishing worlds gave me ideas of what I wanted. But not specific people.

[KARLI] Yeah. For me, I think I did start there. Just being like, I want to be that like, that's, that's what I want. And then—

[A.P.] Who? Who do want?

[KARLI] At first, it was George RR Martin. I'm like, that. That's, that's what I want. But then, as I matured as a writer, and actually understood what this looks like, for me, I think it ends up being more of a conglomeration of like, oh, I like this part about that writer. And I like what they're doing here and that there and um, it was either actually it was George RR Martin, or Neil Gaiman. I want to just merge them. That's what I wanted to be. So the more time goes on, though, I am, you know, I'm also reading new books and gaining new perspective, and seeing that there's a much wider world out there than just those two dudes. And learning how to define success for myself has become more of a just picking and choosing and merging ideas. And it’s—it is, it's way more nebulous than just I want to be that one thing.

[A.P.] Well, would you say that as your definition of success, and what you want for yourself has grown, and you've moved away from just the whole Gaiman Martin thing... Do either of you feel like success might mean—I'm only asking this because I feel like it's a pretty common answer. But does success mean to you that you are writing full time and that is supporting you financially?

[JAMIE] No.

[A.P.] Okay. [A.P. and Jamie chuckle]

[KARLI] Do you want to elaborate?

[JAMIE] I'm thinking. [all laugh] I’m thinking of not if I want to elaborate, but like, how on earth would I elaborate? You mean, I should have thought about what success is?

[A.P.] Yeah. What is—yeah, you know. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Personally before I got here today?

[KARLI] In your prep work? Do you want me to go?

[JAMIE] Yeah, you go. [A.P. laughs]

[KARLI] Okay. My answer, in essence, at the root of it is the same. No, I don't believe that anymore. For myself, success means when I do produce a book, my target audience has a good time when they're reading it. I'm actually—even if that target audience ends up being a lot smaller than I originally wanted. If they are enjoying what I'm producing, then—and I'm enjoying what I'm producing, that's success to me.

[A.P.] How would you measure that?

[JAMIE] You would never know.

[LAUGHTER]

[A.P.] Just, you know, like, I want, I'm just trying to imagine. At what point would you be like, I've done it? Like, what would that look like to you?

[KARLI] I without going into the mental health of it all, I’m not really sure. You know, I can't time travel, weirdly enough, I've tried. I am definitely one of those people that, I can't help it. I do want to be, I want to hit that stupid New York Times Best Selling list. I want to be that person whose book is made into a movie. Those are things that I want. And obviously I think if I get those, will I still feel like I've not accomplished enough? Probably. But that goes into the mental health of it all.

[A.P.] Sure yeah.

[KARLI] So. But ultimately, I don't believe that I need those things in order for future me to say, hey, I'm doing it, I'm doing the thing and I'm having a good time. What that actually will be for me, I can't say. I'd like to hope that if I'm just producing books consistently, where I don't feel burnt out, and I feel like I'm enjoying myself still, that that will be the moment that I go, I've done it. But I can't guarantee that.

[A.P.] Yeah, I'm just like... As I was thinking about this before the podcast, I was trying to like imagine the moment where I'm like, I am now successful and like what has just happened. What is like, what does my life look like? And that's why I was saying like, when I'm saying, when I was envisioning this moment for myself, I was like, okay, I am, you know, in some house somewhere and I don't have a day job and all I do is write and that's like, like I'm a writer. Like if I ever find myself living that life—mental health aside, of course [all chuckle]—that is when I think that I will feel successful.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Now that I've had time to think about. [A.P. and Karli chuckle] So I have no idea what Karli just said. [all laugh] No, I'm just kidding, I was listening. I was thinking about my own thing the whole time.

[KARLI] Repeat it all, I wasn't listening.

[JAMIE] No, I was thinking that success is going to be a very fleeting feeling that you get in—that I get in small bursts. Because when I imagine what success is, some of this is subject to change. But in my head, it's that I can be producing stories on a regular basis, like a book a year. And the success part would come when I'm published, and then the next year or the next book, people still want that. [A.P. and Karli chuckle] Like, I'm like, people continually come back. If I can be consistent, and then people want me to be consistent.

[A.P.] Okay.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I want to be constantly in demand, not like a huge demand. [A.P. chuckles] Because, I mean, I don't want a lot of pressure. But it's that just like…

[KARLI] Just enough pressure.

[JAMIE] The idea of selling a book to a publisher, will give you that like little hit of success. And then success is holding a reader's attention enough that they want to buy your next book.

[A.P.] Do you think that you'll get to the second book, and then you'll be like, maybe those two were just a fluke?

[JAMIE] Yeah, I'm sure I will. Because it's like people with impostor syndrome.

[A.P.] Yeah. [laughs]

[JAMIE] It's like, I just have to keep going get those tiny bits of success, like little dopamine hits throughout my life. [laughs]

[A.P.] The more we get into this, the more I think this is all just, you know, like us chasing a drug. And it's always gonna be horrible.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] One hundred percent. And I was thinking the same thing.

[JAMIE] Gotta get that stream of dopamine.

[KARLI] Yeah, it's, it's what you were saying, Jamie, also, the subject to change. All of this is a subject to change. Because one, the industry is changing, and it's always going to be changing, and what the future looks like—which we'll touch on in a minute, with like, the social pressure because of social media mainly, and expectations for ourselves—our lives change. You know, what we want for ourselves now... I mean, think of yourself five years ago, what did you want for yourself? Then how—it like it's evolved from even then like, it's just, it's always subject to change. So what we say now may not be what we think six months from now, let alone six years in the future.

[A.P.] Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it's not just, things change outside of us. But also, like we don't, at least I don't feel like I know, the publishing industry 100%. So like, as I learn more about it, things will probably change too.

[A.P.] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] I don't even I don't even know what I don't know about publishing.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] But isn't that isn't that just the state of life? We don't know what we don't know. And we keep learning and trying and showing up and—

[A.P.] Like fools!

[JAMIE] Suckas! [A.P. chuckles]

[KARLI] Like absolute fools. That's a good thing that dopamine is so good. [A.P. and Karli laugh] The only thing that keeps us coming back.

[A.P.] Yeah, I need the good brain juices.

[JAMIE] So I think the social pressure is like a good thing to bring up when you're talking about fame and success at the same time. Because I think with the advent of the internet, that some people get these things confused. And luckily, we already talked about it, like it's pretty clear to us the difference. But some of those things become intertwined when it comes to social media and, and pressure from without, because sometimes having fame can help you on your way to success. Because so many times we're—there's follower counts and views, and once you have a higher follower count, maybe you'll be more likely to get picked up by whatever agent by whatever publisher.

[KARLI] Or sell more copies.

[A.P.] Yeah, it doesn't hurt.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It doesn't hurt and there's nothing wrong with anybody who has those things. That's awesome. But they're not mutually exclusive. And that's why I think it's important to make sure like what your, your goal is in your—what you're shooting for is something you want and not something you've been told you want.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] As far as like follower count, Big Five publishing, like all those things. Of course, I'd love to have some Big Five publishing I'm just—if anybody's listening to this in the industry... Don't—don't get me wrong. [all chuckle] DM me. It's important to have a perspective, just because everybody I see once these things doesn't necessarily mean that I have to structure my whole life around, how do I get these things?

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah. I mean, if you want those things and the pursuit of those things isn't destroying you, [Jamie laughs] then have at it.

[A.P.] That's a that's a good point you made, Jamie. Because I think that quantifies a little bit of the fame. Because I think, if you are seeking fame, you probably can point to like, oh, I've got, you know, X amount of followers or, or whatever. I don't think that's like a perfect metric. But it is at least a metric that I hadn't really considered. And, you know, at least as I was starting out in this, I always heard like, oh, you know, you want to have an author platform. And like, the importance of that stuff kind of like waxes and wanes for me a little bit. There's definitely been times where I'm, like, really into it. I'm like, alright, let's, you know, I'm gonna post several times a week, and I'm gonna, like, try and build followers and blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know how much, you know, like, what kind of returns I'm really getting from that kind of stuff. Other than, again, [chuckles] dopamine hits for notifications, [all laugh] which, you know, sometimes are fine, too. But when it comes to like, selling something, or like converting to book sales, I don't know how much of that it actually does.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's like it. While it doesn't hurt, it doesn't often translate right over. There's been times where I look up some of my personal favorite authors, and they don't have huge followings. Granted, a lot of them are older. [chuckles] So that may be a part of it.

[A.P.] Yeah. But like, I mean, look at Neil Gaiman, or like VE Schwab, like they are definitely, there, doing stuff on social media. So it's like, yeah, you can definitely do that. And it can be a boon. I just don't know how much of a boon it is.

[KARLI] Right. But I don't know, I'm always interested by this conversation. Because, you know, while we talk a lot about like, [chuckles] the evils of social media and stuff like that, because we're who we are. You know, we met via social media. Yeah. You know, we wouldn't know you, A.P., without social media,

[A.P.] You're right, delete social media. Get rid of it forever. This has been terrible thing.

[JAMIE] That's all, folks. [A.P. laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah, pretty much. So that's case and point [A.P. laughs] and the conversation's over, so thanks for joining us today. And—

[A.P.] No, you're right.

[KARLI] So it's interesting, because you know, if you're not there, if you're not on the internet is is kind of unnecessary evil at this point in our lives. If you're not there, how do people find you? How are you—how do you get your work promoted, you know?

[A.P.] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And I definitely believe in like having a social media presence, having a platform where if somebody finds something from you and is interested has an opportunity or a place to reach out. That’s absolutely important. As long as it doesn't—I just don't want it to rule you.

[KARLI] I've heard you say before, Jamie, something to the effect of that, you know, if you're spending so much time on social media, creating content, then that's time... You know, we only have a certain number of hours in the day, and if you're spending all of this time over here, but you're not actually creating the art that you're trying to get recognized for, then you creating this platform isn't actually helping you. And how do you strike that balance?

[JAMIE] I did say that. I am quite clever. [A.P. and Jamie chuckle]

[KARLI] You're really smart sometimes.

[JAMIE] Insufferable all the time. [A.P. chuckles]

[KARLI] Yes, that.

[A.P.] I think that's a short term hit of feeling successful, that maybe we can circle back to you because like, you create quote, unquote, content and be posted and you get reactions and notifications and it's like immediate feedback of like, oh, I'm doing something, I've accomplished something, and people are engaging with it. So it's like yeah, I want that. I want that all the time. [Jamie chuckles] Then you're like, I'm not writing at all.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Therein lies the problem.

[KARLI] Exactly.

[JAMIE] Well, my my assistants giving me the wrap it up sign. when you move to the next—

[A.P.] [chuckling] Your assistant? What the hell?

[JAMIE] [laughing] It’s my alter ego.

[KARLI] Yeah, her alter ego.

[JAMIE AND KARLI] James.

[A.P.] It's just like a mirror and you do like a Gollum thing. You just like scream at yourself. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Wrap it up.

[KARLI] It is. It's terrifying. I real quick, just wanted to drop this little, this little nugget. I read a very interesting article in the um, thank you. The New Yorker. [A.P. and Karli laugh] I thanked my notes just now. It was an interesting thing that I feel like contributes to this conversation. So if you wanted to go look at the New Yorker article, it's called, "On the Internet, We're Always Famous." And I just, I found it to be an interesting perspective.

[A.P.] So what's the TLDR?

[KARLI] I don't know what TLDR means. I'm so sorry.

[A.P.] Too long, didn't read.

[KARLI] Oh. Um, talking about social media and kind of what it's—how it's adjusted our perspective, I think on success and fame and, and our uh, our idea of recognition.

[JAMIE] So it's an article all about what this episode is all about. [A.P. chuckles]

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] It's not all about it. I feel like I kind of took it this way so maybe somebody else reading it wouldn't, wouldn't exactly take it this way if they weren't thinking about it in that perspective, but that I, I read it while preparing for this. So that's, that was my takeaway. But there's one quote in particular in there that he was talking about there as in you know, they the general world. "Their attention renders us tiny gods." And the idea of, you know, we're always talking about the dopamine hits of getting all of the likes and followers and all of that stuff. So I just, it's interesting. You just if you want, go read it. Um A.P., did you prepare a recommendation for us?

[A.P.] I do have two pennies in my pocket that I want to get rid of. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Excellent. Good. We'll take them.

[A.P.] Do you have an intro to the segment?

[JAMIE] This week? We're gonna have A.P. give his two cent recommendation.

[A.P.] Is there music?

[Jamie makes a snappy tune with her mouth]

[LAUGHTER]

[A.P.] I expect that every time now on every episode.

[JAMIE] I don't kowtow to guests. Okay, this, just go.

[A.P.] Just go. So, keeping on topic a little bit, what I've found to be successful is tracking as much as possible. So I actually like writing down things, keeping track of every submission I've done, doing like email folders, because nothing shows upward trends, like concrete data. I actually wrote that down. Don't trust feelings. Because feelings are broken. Because our brains are dumb. [all laugh] If you look at numbers, you're like, oh, okay, I am doing better than I was last year. I have sent out more stories this year than last year. Tracking things like word count and stuff like that. And yeah, like that's annoying. And it's like extra work you have to do but when it's staring you in the face, it's hard to be like, [mocking voice] “ehhh I don't feel really successful about—you're doing the things." [normal voice] This is me talking to myself every day.

[JAMIE] Yeah, and there's a lot of things you can look into out there. Like, Karli's favorite thing is spreadsheets. [Karli laughs] I like spreadsheets.

[A.P.] [dramatic whisper] I love spreadsheets.

[JAMIE] To keep track of submissions especially.

[KARLI] Don't get sweaty, A.P.

[JAMIE] Spreadsheets or query tracker.

[A.P.] Yeah, there's query tracker. Submission Grindr is for short stories, and that tracks all your stuff. But yeah, spreadsheets are great. I love spreadsheets.

[KARLI] Spreadsheets are awful. [A.P. chuckles] But what do you recommend to be able to keep track of all of your stuff? Do you use spreadsheets?

[A.P.] I use spreadsheets. I use... I am an absolute lunatic with spreadsheets. [Jamie laughs] I have like a yearly one...

[KARLI] Gross.

[A.P.] With different tabs and it's got fonts and...

[JAMIE] Now I'm getting sweaty.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] You guys are terrible.

[JAMIE] Organization nerds.

[KARLI] I need to find something that works for me, for that, because I agree with you, A.P. Feelings are broken. Our brains are dumb. I don't trust any of that. But I do exist solely on that currently, because I hate spreadsheets. And I need to find a different way to track my own metrics.

[A.P.] Do you like, sort of related to this to like, track your wins? Your quote unquote, wins, in any way?

[KARLI] What wins? [A.P. chuckles]

[A.P.] Okay.

[JAMIE] Do you track anything, Karli?

[KARLI] No. [A.P. and Jamie laugh]

[JAMIE] There you go. There's your answer, A.P.

[A.P.] Okay, alright.

[KARLI] That's what I'm saying. That's exactly what I'm saying is I recognize that that would be really good for me. But somebody says spreadsheet, and I want to die.

[A.P.] So try this. This might work for you. Do you have a mason jar around the house?

[KARLI] Yes.

[A.P.] Do you have colorful post it notes? Or slips of paper?

[KARLI] Yes.

[A.P.] Anytime something even mildly positive happens in relation to your writing career, write it on a piece of paper and put it in the jar.

[KARLI] I like that.

[A.P.] And then when you feel like a piece of shit, you reach in and you read something.

[KARLI] Great. So daily. Awesome.

[A.P.] Every hour, on the hour.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] I need my hourly affirmations, okay?

[A.P.] Yeah, yeah. You know, we forget the—I feel like I forget the good things a lot. Like I either like, discount them or I don't believe them or something and they just like disappear. Whereas the bad things I'm like, yes. I look forward to this haunting me for seventeen more months. [Jamie and Karli chuckle]

[KARLI] Yep. Absolutely. Okay. Well, thank you, A.P. Very much.

[A.P.] You're very welcome.

[KARLI] For all of your, all of your perspective, and joining—joining us in our madness.

[A.P.] Well, thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure.

[KARLI] You can find A.P. Thayer on social media, Instagram and Twitter @apthayer. You can also find him on his website at apthayer.com. And he has links for you to read his fiction, which you absolutely should do that. He's fantastic.

[A.P.] Oh, thank you.

[KARLI] Welcome.

[JAMIE] He's okay.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Jamie!

[JAMIE] Oh, sorry.

[KARLI] We want him to come back.

[KARLI] Success for me means Jamie thinks my writing is better than okay.

[JAMIE] You're so close. Just keep keep pressing on. [A.P. chuckles]

[KARLI] Listen, I told you about the fickle masses, okay?

[JAMIE] I'm the worst.

[KARLI] All right. Well, thank you for listening to our shenanigans. You can find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast on Twitter at the ACT break...

[JAMIE] Underscore, no podcast. [laughs]

[KARLI] Is that really what it is?

[JAMIE] Yeah. It's @theactbreak_

[KARLI] Oh my god. Okay.

[A.P.] Please support the podcast so they can afford to add podcast to the end of their name on Twitter.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] We ran out of money.

[KARLI] You can also find us via scifiohmy.com. Click on podcast. I looked down at my notes and it says newsletter and I just—my notes are no longer helpful. I'm not thanking them this time.

[JAMIE] I mean, if you're there, sign up for my newsletter.

[KARLI] You can sign up for Jamie's newsletter, podcast newsletter. It's a good place. You can also find links to episode transcripts. While you're on your current podcast platform of choice you might as well you know, like it, review it, subscribe it, hit the bell, do all the things, you know?

[A.P.] Smash that like button.

[KARLI] Smash it.

[A.P.] Smash it with a hammer.

[JAMIE] [laughing] We need to we need to fine tune our call to action. It's half the podcast.

[LAUGHTER]

[A.P.] Season two baby, let's go! [laughs]

[JAMIE] Killin' it!

[KARLI] Yeah!