S2 Ep.9 Magic Systems w/ Greta Valentine

Magic Systems - Transcripts

[JAMIE] You know, a thing I learned later in life was that according to some of the tellings of The Little Mermaid, who traded her tail for legs, so that she could be with Eric, the prince, is that he then cheated on her. And then the only way she could go back to the sea was to slit his throat and let his blood go over her legs [laughing] so she could get her tail back.

[KARLI] Did you know that basically, every—

[JAMIE] Oh yeah.

[KARLI] Disney movie is actually a horrifically dark and horrible, horrible tale. And I have always wondered who, who was like, "Hey, guys. I have a great idea for some children's movies." Who’s, who's in charge? [laughs]

[JAMIE] The Lion King, [laughing] completely stolen from start to finish.

[KARLI] I remember. What it was Kim—? Kimba?

[JAMIE] It's Kimba.

[KARLI] Kimba, yeah. But they—I mean, but did you steal it if you win the lawsuit?

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Legally, is this stolen intellectual property? That's what we call people crushin' money. [Karli laughs] The reason I use that term, if you haven't watched I Care A Lot...

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] It's got Rosamund Pike and Peter Dinklage.

[KARLI] I love Peter Dinklage! Yeah, that was a really good one.

[JAMIE] She's so good. She's still getting everything I've seen her in.

[KARLI] Right.

[JAMIE] Actually, I've only really can recall those two. I Care A Lot. And The Wheel of Time. I know I've seen her and other things, but I cannot pluck them from my mind.

[KARLI] I find that very irritating when I'm like, oh, I love them. They're amazing. But I can't remember anything that they're in, especially when you're talking to somebody else that, you know, you're not as comfortable with them.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[KARLI] And then you're like talking about how much you love them. And then you can't remember anything that they're in.

[JAMIE] Yeah, you don't always have like a friend who you can turn to and be like, “Hey, who's that one guy?”

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And then you'll know and then you'd be like, what are they in? Yeah, I'm that person usually. [laughs]

[KARLI] I know, I just need to carry you around in my pocket.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[KARLI] Welcome back to The Act Break, where the magic happens.

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] [laughing] Don’t say that. No, I love it.

[KARLI] I can say whatever I want. It's my job. This is my job today to introduce everything. I can say what I want. Welcome back to The Act Break, where magic happens.

[JAMIE] I want to like add a magical like, [makes magical tones with her mouth].

[KARLI] [laughs] Good.

[GRETA] Do it.

[JAMIE] That's what it was. I just did it.

[KARLI] [laughing] That’s what it is. We have a really high budget. I'm Karli, lover of all things magics.

[JAMIE] I'm Jamie and I enjoy a good magical tale, somebody who just enjoys talking all about the magic of it all.

[GRETA] And I'm Greta Valentine. I'm also a speculative fiction writer who tends to work fantasy in long form. But I like to explore all kinds of weirdness in short fiction, anything goes.

[KARLI] Welcome, Greta!

[GRETA] It's good to be here.

[KARLI] Just a bunch of nerds, chatting together. It's gonna be a good time. All right, today, we have our guest and friend, Greta, joining us to talk about magic systems. We're gonna break them down and pick them apart. See what they're made of. Fairy dust and things? Probably? I don't know. We'll find out. So let's start off with what? What is a magic system? Do we have like a general—Jamie, do you have a definition? Did you—

[JAMIE] I don't think that Webster's dictionary has magic systems in it.

[KARLI] You didn't even look?

[JAMIE] I don't think so.

[KARLI] I was relying on you.

[JAMIE] A magic system in the way that we are referring to it would be, the system in which your story or book uses elements of mystical properties and things that cannot be explained by natural science or technology.

[KARLI] Look at you go.

[JAMIE] Boom.

[KARLI] Episode over. That's it, guys.

[JAMIE] Because that's all you need to know.

[LAUGHTER]

[KARLI] Nothing else important.

[JAMIE] Not an educational podcast.

[KARLI] So obviously, magic systems come in all different forms. The easiest way I think to start breaking them down is to talk about the different types of magic systems that you can see. And I'm talking about like hard magic, soft magic. What are those things? Let’s, let's dive in. Greta, how would you describe hard magic?

[GRETA] So the definition that comes to mind to me kind of is one that has to do with details and rules. So hard magic to me is a system that has enough explained that the reader understands that the characters understand so that the magic can influence the plot, and be kind of a device to like, solve problems that directly influence the plot. But the reader and the character, like have enough information about the limitations and the rules so that that can solve problems.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah, I like the way you describe that.

[JAMIE] Do you have a book that like comes to mind when you're like, oh, this is obviously a very hard magic system.

[GRETA] So, what I discovered in the process of preparing for this podcast is that I read and write very little hard magic. And when I looked up examples of hard magic systems, like the only one that comes to mind that I'm like [chuckles] even like very familiar with is like the Grishaverse. So Shadow and Bone, like how the Grisha function within that world. I saw a lot of examples, Avatar The Last Airbender, some of Brandon Sanderson's works. I just am not familiar with too many stories, apparently, that have very hard magic systems.

[JAMIE] The Grishaverse is a good example, though, the other one that comes to my mind is Brandon Sanderson's, Mistborn.

[GRETA] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] Because that's incredibly detailed, like they lay out exactly how it works, to the point where if you're a reader, and you got dropped into that world, you'd know exactly what needed to happen.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah, Brandon Sanderson writes a lot of hard magic systems. He has soft magic stuff, too, which we can get into next. Jamie, do you want to talk about soft magic a little bit?

[JAMIE] Soft magic is probably what I enjoy most, even though I do obviously, enjoy the hard magic. Because magic with a little bit air of mystery, where maybe it's not explained to me, is fine with me, because it's a principle that I think translates also to science fiction. And it's, I don't need to know how to build a cell phone to use a cell phone. I do want to know, like the rules or consequences of using magic, but I don't need to necessarily know exactly where it came from, and how every little thing is performed.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So it's much more mystical, I think.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] So soft magic, definitely. There are like Greta was explaining, it's, it's basically the opposite of hard magic, where, you know, with hard magic, you have lots of explanations of how things work it so that the reader really grasps and understands how exactly they can use the magic to solve problems. And soft magic is much more, we don't really know what it does; and anything could happen with it really. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Everybody knows this character, and it's soft magic. And that's Gandalf.

[GRETA AND KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I mean, very few people have read The Silmarillion. [Greta and Karli chuckle] To know how, and even then, do you really even know how it works? But like, in The Lord of the Rings, they do magic, and you don't have any explanation? And you don't care. It's fine.

[GRETA] Yeah, and I would say like, in my definition of hard magic, I know, I said that it influences the plot. And that's kind of slippery, right? Because I think that soft magic can definitely like add tension. It can introduce problems. It can introduce like an air of mystery, but it doesn't necessarily like have to do with the character understanding the mechanics of it.

[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to also talk about how I've mentioned, Brandon Sanderson, has hard magic, but he also has soft magic. I really enjoy the stories where there's a spectrum, or where there's multiple forms of magic working together, or against each other, or against the characters. One of the examples that I really thought of, in this regard, is The Name of the Wind. He has a hard magic system, which is the sympathy and that's basically like science; very strict rules for how that works, or doesn't work. And then there is a soft magic system, which is naming. And that is much more elusive, and you don't really know how it works, and neither do they. So it's possible to have both and I really enjoy stories that have both.

[JAMIE] The word that keeps coming to mind in soft magic is mystical.

[KARLI] Yes.

[JAMIE] Because it's that air of mystery. Like Dr. Strange is a mystic.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] So you know, kind of the things you can do with it. But not how.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] I love the whole naming thing in The Name of the Wind, because it's very cerebral, like you have to expand your mind to do it or to understand it.

[KARLI] Yeah, I think a lot of myths and legends are soft magic. We know that there's these entities that can do things and magical things happen, but we have no idea really why or how, but we're good with it. And we just roll.

[GRETA] Yeah, and I love that. 'Cause that I think is one of my favorite things about stories with magic is just how it is part of the world. And it's just there. And I was thinking a lot about fairy tale and mythology influenced things for soft magic, because it just is such a part of the world that's just accepted.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[GRETA] And that actually, like made me think I have a question for you all about the kind of spectrum from hard to soft, because fairy tales, like very often have that kind of like mystical quality where the character doesn't understand how the magic works. But also, there are fairy tales like Sleeping Beauty or something where there's like a curse that has to be broken. And there's like, one thing that they have to do, like true love's kiss will awaken the princess or whatever. So like, is that soft magic? Or is that like, harder magic with only one rule? [Karli lauhgs] I was thinking about this with like, a lot of the examples that I came up with, [chuckles] like even Jumanji or something like that, like you have to finish the game. Is that—

[JAMIE] I would still consider that soft magic.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[GRETA] Yeah. Just because of the lack of explanation of like, how it works and where it comes from? Yeah.

[JAMIE] Jumanji. I think that's a great example, where it's like, we don't know how the board got to be that way. If it was made that way, or if it was cursed, or...

[KARLI] Did it come from a magical tree? Or … yeah.

[JAMIE] And we don't have to know for the plot.

[GRETA] True.

[JAMIE] Like you were saying even soft science fiction can or soft magic systems can influence the plot, we don't necessarily need to know everything about them to understand the plot.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[GRETA] True.

[KARLI] I agree with that. Hard magic tends to lean much more towards understanding how the magic works or the origin of it. And that being important to us understanding what's happening in the, in the story. Now that we've talked about all of those things, when we consider writing a magic system within our own story, or we just want to have magic in it. I mean, they're all magic systems, it's just we say that. And I think that the default might be to assume that it means a more structured magic, but it doesn't have to be a hard magic, in order for it to be a magic system. There's, there's so many things to think about. I just kind of wanted to drop some of these examples in there, some of the things to think about in order to make your magic systems feel more like they're important in our story. And they aren't just this element that we dropped in as an afterthought.

[JAMIE] I kind of get what you're talking about where no matter what level of magic system you have, if you have magic in your book, it needs to be intertwined with the plot. Because if you could lift your magic system out and have like, the same exact plot, then what why do you have a magic system? No matter if you're explaining the whole thing, or not explaining it or keeping it loose ... if it doesn't affect the plot, there's no point. Is that kind of what you were—

[KARLI] Yes, yes, that is what I'm saying. Thank you for expanding on that. So there are different ways to I think to go about making sure that we've at least considered them even if even if we're not going to explain them, like you said, in depth. And some of those things are like you know, the magical limitations, I think is one of the more interesting ways to look at it. What can't your magic do? And then looking at that, how that affects your characters and the story and what's going on there. Anybody else have any ideas or examples of things, to—that you think are important to consider when you're looking at your magic system in relation to your story?

[GRETA] Yeah, I think that's important, what you said in terms of thinking about how the magic affects the plot and the characters. I like to have it thematic element that ties my magic to the story that kind of like, explains why it's there. Because the magic does influence the choices the character can make, like it's a part of the world, it's, it's something that's like real for them. But I also like when that is not necessarily something that can solve problems for them. And it just demonstrates that like, even though that's part of their world, it's a lens through which they see the world and through—that kind of like limits the choices they can make. It does come down to like their choices and consequences and how they use the magic. So Jamie, you had mentioned like, it would be a different story if you lifted the magic out. And that's definitely true. But for me, I like to think about how the magic kind of like, casts into a sharper relief, like the choices and the consequences that my characters are making. And that magic is not the element that's like actually solving the problem or resolving the conflict for them. It's kind of like how they choose to use it.

[JAMIE] I totally get what you mean. It made me think of kind of like as a case study, Harry Potter. They use magic, but they have problems that can't just be solved purely by magic; they have to take their own actions. But also, as much as I adore Harry Potter, there's no cost to magic. Sure, there's cost to types of magic. But in general, they can use as much magic as they want, all the time. And it's important that your magic costs something. It doesn't come for free, there needs to be an exchange. Otherwise, like in Harry Potter, people are just using magic all the time to solve their problems. And if they're not, then you're like, well, why didn't you just use magic? Because it doesn't cost you anything.

[KARLI] With that, I do agree I—but there is also the limitation of knowledge, how much, how much magic do you actually understand and your ability to use it? Because it's like, you might know the words. But if you don't understand it, or you don't pronounce it right, or whatever, it's not going to do exactly what you want. But that's more of a limitation than a cost. Greta, I loved what you said about it being a lens. That was a very visual thing for me that you said. And I agree that I think, a magic system, if it—if your magic exists in your world, and that's just—you're not introducing somebody from the outside and they're experiencing it for the first time. If you're, for everybody else it's just it's a state of permanence. It is, there it is, what it is, and how does that inform their decisions and the consequences of their choices? I love that. Which I think goes into character relationship and reaction to the magic. Because not everybody is going to have the same relationship to magic or the same reaction to it. I mean, like, some people are going to take it much more seriously, some people are going to be more flippant about it. I mean, I think that that's just on like, a very basic level of reaction to it.

[GRETA] Yeah, I love that element of magic, actually. Because like in some stories, magic is like a powerful ability then like an accepted ability for certain characters. And it is like a forbidden thing for other characters. And so even the fact of using magic has consequences. Like those people might be feared, or outcasts, or something like that.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[GRETA] So I really do value like the nuance within a story of looking at magic through different characters perspectives.

[KARLI] I mean, especially when you get into mythology. I was thinking of Gods of Jade and Shadow by Silvia Moreno-Garcia. The main character, she just, she lives in a world where myths are a very much a part of her culture. And so when something crazy happens, she just goes with it, because it's real to her. Because as writers, magic isn't real for us, it is something that is made up, that we are making up. And I think the hazard could be that because it is not real for us, we input our own reactions to the magic into our characters heads—and that might work for your particular character or your story—but it's not necessarily going to be the same for every single character. Or in fact, it shouldn't. I mean, really, you have a wide range of characters, they're all going to have different perspectives and thoughts. Just like you get a group of people in the same room; the three of us while, we might have similar passions and ideas, we all see things different because of our own personal lens.

[JAMIE] I like what you were saying, Greta, too about different characters can be feared it, because—spoiler alerts for the Mistborn series—a lot of people who use this magic system, but there is like a certain group of people who are using this different type, like kind of like a darker magic, they're basically feared. They've used this magic to a point that's mutilate—mutilated their own bodies in order to use this magic when those people are in a crowd, even though this whole world is aware of magic and how magic works, those people are feared still. Yeah, you can introduce multiple types of magic, different levels, and how that affects perspectives of the magic system. If that makes sense.

[KARLI] Well, because then then there's another facet of that exact world where the—there's an echelon of people that utilize this magic and they are nobility, and they have a good cushiony life because they have access to this when the dredges do not. So that goes into play with accessibility, like who has access to the magic, who doesn’t, and why. Whether you're doing hard magic or soft magic, you don't necessarily have to answer that question within the context of your story or directly, but you being aware as the writer of who has access and who doesn't, will inform the way that you go about telling this story.

[GRETA] Yeah, that's a great point. And I think that's like, as writers a good reason that we have like critique partners and stuff. Because when you're coming up with an entire system of rules, you are like so steeped in figuring out the mechanics; like even though that might not be the thing you want to come across on the page. So it can be great to hand it off and say, like, how did this read to you like, what's your reaction to this? Because yeah, sometimes we're not like getting enough detail across like, sometimes it might be way too much for like, what that character would naturally know about the magic. Like you were saying, Karli.

[KARLI] Yeah, or way too vague, or...

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] And I feel like sometimes in the development process, if you're building a whole magic system, or like a whole world, sometimes those elements change as you develop them. And it can potentially be hard to keep straight what you remember and what you've removed. So that's why you need somebody to go through and read and tell you what made it onto the page. [Karli chuckles]

[GRETA] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] Because there have been times where it's like, you kind of completely change how we're gonna do these different elements. And it might be because we're like, Well, it's because before I was doing this, and then I changed it, but I didn't change it on the page. [chuckles] So I need to go back, and I'll change it, and I'll fix it, and I'll send it to you again, Karli. [Karli laughs]

[GRETA] Yeah, exactly. Like, especially if it's something with like a lot of detail. That's like an iterative process. So yeah, really good point about seeing what actually shows up on the page.

[JAMIE] Especially if you've been doing it for like, a while or multiple drafts.

[GRETA] Yes.

[KARLI] We get so in our heads with with it like you were saying, Greta, because we're steeped in trying to figure out how to make it work, that we know how it works. So we might think it's implied on the page when it's really not.

[GRETA] Exactly. One of my favorite things about writing the magic is the characterization of the people in your stories. And like, how they understand magic and how they use it, and how that conveys what kind of person they are. And I think a really cool example of that is Uprooted. I really loved like how at the beginning of that story, the two main characters use magic in such different ways. One of them is very, like rigid, proper, like book magic. And the other one is like a disaster and just wants to improvise. [Karli laughs] And over the course of the story that I mean, that really like characterizes their personalities; and like the way that they use magic and the way that they use magic together, changes over the course of the story. And really mirrors like the way that they change as people too. So I love when I can work something like that into a story where the magic is kind of like a parallel or a mirror of like what's going on thematically.

[KARLI] Yes. Or internally for that character.

[GRETA] Right.

[KARLI] Yeah, I love that. And I love that example. I had written Uprooted down as like a note of something to bring up. But I didn't even think of bringing it up from that perspective. But you're so right. It's a fantastic example of that, because we are different personalities. So we will approach it differently.

[GRETA] Right.

[KARLI] And if you do it well, it can serve multiple purposes. You can learn how the magic works. You can learn more about the world and you can learn more about your character.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] That is a very good way to do a show don't tell on getting to know your character because—especially with a contrasting character.

[GRETA] Yeah. And anytime that you can get something like that to work on multiple levels in your story, that's just like, good writer moment.

[KARLI] Right? Well, and it helps you avoid that info dump. Because I think that that is such a difficult part about magic systems and making magic systems. Avoiding the info dump or, or putting the info dump at the right point that the reader cares enough to read the info dump.

[GRETA] Yes.

[JAMIE] I just want to let everybody know that there's so like, we're like, oh, there's all sorts of levels of magic systems. You can also use your magic systems in different ways, storytelling wise. And what I mean is, I have a story that has magic, but I kind of use the magic system as a mystery through the book. By the end you're getting why this magic system exists. You can use your magic system in different ways you can make it a mystery. You can make your magic system into a thriller by tying it to like a murder. Like there's so many different ways you can do it than just like I have to build this magic system. And that's what I build my world on top of.

[KARLI] Yes. Yeah, no, absolutely. You can tie it directly to your sub-genre.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[KARLI] I love that you brought that up because that is some of my favorite things. And elements is when they can they can either create an error mystery with the magic where I'm trying to figure out okay, well why does this magic work this way or how is this going to affect the character by the end? Or it's compelling and gripping, and it's drawing me forward because I am afraid for them or afraid for the world or whatever.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it can be a slow release of information.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[GRETA] Yeah, it can kind of form different—or it can take different roles in your world. Like it can be there to just provide like a sense of wonder and discovery and like, show a character like learning about the world, or it can be like a toolkit for solving problems, kind of like resolving your conflict, too.

[KARLI] So I mean, I think that that just kind of segues us into this next portion: where, as fantasy writers, why do we need magic systems? Why do we use them? Like Jamie was saying, it can be a genre thing, a plot thing.

[JAMIE] Like, specifically why we need to bind it with rules? Which reminds me of Abed talking about being the Dungeon Master [Karli laughs] and where he's like, "I take a world and I bind it." But if we go into a story, not knowing how we want to use it, using it willy nilly, letting everybody use the magic, letting,—it's kind of like magic could run rampant. And maybe there's, I'm sure there's a cool story where magic is running rampant. [chuckles] And that's the problem. But it can get away from you pretty quickly, if you don't have a system in place. That's why I think it's so important that we need them if we're going to use them in a story.

[GRETA] Yeah, and I think the limitations, I know a lot of, a lot of resources out there that talk about magic systems really focus on the limitations and the consequences and the costs. Because it probably wouldn't be interesting to have a story where magic was just like all over the place, and it just existed and you, you couldn't do anything with it. It says things about your characters in terms of like how they make choices within that framework too.

[JAMIE] Well, it's the superhero problem, too. If you don't have stipulations, and rules and limitations up front, people get more and more powerful. And so then you have to make your protagonists more and more powerful, and then your superhero has to be more powerful to defeat them. And then your Overton Window shifts. It happens in Marvel movies a lot. Because there are characters who have no super abilities, they are literally just humans. So they really shouldn't be able to square up with super powered people. But eventually over the course you're like, sure, Natasha Romanov can totally fall off a five story building and walk away fine. [Karli laughs] For some reason, even though she's just a human.

[KARLI] She's not wearing Vibranium. It's fine.

[JAMIE] No. It's just—it's whatever. She's just—shake it off. But the same thing happens with magic, where it's like, if you don't put a limit on it, it's just gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger. And you're gonna have to make everything—the stakes just you're going to get out of control. [laughs]

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah. I mean, there's, there can be a certain level of enjoyment of watching or reading a story where things are just bonkers like that, where the the monsters are huge, and the superheroes are huge enough to defeat them. But if every single stor—like every single story can't work that way, sometimes we do we just want a good superhero movie. It's totally true. But let's be honest, like we all have those things that irk us that we're like, why? Why does? Why? Why?

[LAUGHTER]

[JAMIE] Yeah, because I'm all for like building the stakes. Unlocking new levels of ability. You just need to do—there has to be some sort of rule in place. Because I'm just saying, I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying be careful.

[KARLI] Right? Because I mean, like even if there's like a sudden level up like there is an a lot of like anime, kids shows, especially like—what I'm thinking—my kids been watching Yu-Gi-Oh. And yeah, like suddenly, they're super powerful. But there's reasons behind why it works that way. And so it's fine. Like, if that's what you want to do for your story, fine. You just have to understand why it works that way.

[JAMIE] And if you want the beautiful slow build of power, chef's kiss, I'm just saying Avatar The Last Airbender. So good. The progression, thematically, fits each step of the way. To the point where you're like, I believe it. I believe that that could happen. Yep.

[KARLI] Clearly, we can use magic for a lot of different things other than just coolness. But how do we know how much our story needs? And whether or not we've gone too far with it? Or not far enough? Where do where do we draw the line on our magic for our story? How do we even know?

[JAMIE] I'll go—we'll go deeper into the question question, but my initial reaction is, critique partners. [Karli chuckles] And sometimes you'll be writing and you're like, I don't know if this is too much, but this is what I'm doing right now. And I, if it's too much somebody needs to tell me later. [Jamie and Karli chuckle]

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] What about you? Greta, what do you think?

[GRETA] Yeah. When we were talking earlier about, like defining the level of detail about magic in your story, I was kind of like dividing that in my mind into like, the purpose of magic and the level of detail. And I think it probably matters if you want magic to be part of the crux of like, a plot twist, or like an aha moment, at the end of your story where the character understands its mechanics well enough to use it or to subvert it in such a way that it helps them to resolve a conflict. But I think that it can totally just be there to constrain a set of choices that your character has to make throughout the story or to tell the reader about the kind of world that we're in. And it can just be kind of like an immersion factor to it just depends on like, what kind of story you want to tell.

[KARLI] That was gonna be what I said, it depends on what kind of story you want to tell; because like what you did with “The Raven Wife,” you were telling a very specific kind of story. And I don't want to say too much because like, I don't want spoilers, because people should go read it. But like, you were trying to evoke a certain effect with your story. And so your magic works to the climax to make it have that impact. And we don't necessarily understand. But we don't need to.

[GRETA] Right.

[JAMIE] That's an element I loved about that story. And I love in many stories like it where it gives an echo of real life. And that's that we don't always know why things happen.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] There's not always an explanation. And just because we really want to know, doesn't mean we're going to know, but these things still happen.

[GRETA] Yeah, absolutely. That kind of hits the nail on the head of like, a vibe I love in different kinds of stories. And I think that's why I gravitate towards fairy tales, and magic realism and things like that, where it's just like, magic is not the weird thing. It's like, there’s—there's other things happening to the character. And like, yeah, there's consequences to choices that you make in your life. And we don't always know why things happen. And I think, yeah, sometimes magic can just be a window setting for that. And sometimes it can be like a fundamental part of what your character ends up doing. It just depends on the kind of story.

[JAMIE] If you love that theme, I think that the Wayward Children series is really good. Because it very much has a theme of, we don't know why these things happen to us, but they happen to us. And that's all there is to it.

[KARLI] That's all there is to it. Yes, absolutely. We don't have to understand the mechanics of it to be transported into this world and be invested in what's going on. And I definitely think that that is a very, very fairy tale and myths sort of thing, which is I think, why Neil Gaiman has that kind of impact in most of his stories, because he taps into that. And I think the not understanding exactly what happens made me think of why I like the ambiguous ending so much is because sometimes I think that that's the impact of, of not necessarily understanding why it still happened. But let's pull it back into how do we know where to draw the line for ourselves with our stories? Greta, do you have any guidelines for yourself to help you figure out?

[GRETA] Like how much detail I want to provide to the reader?

[KARLI] Like, where do you how do you know where you draw the line on how much or how little?

[GRETA] I think for me, I have to have enough understanding of the magic system, like the character and the reader have to know enough about magic to inform how the character is going to use it. That's a really ambiguous way of saying it, because that could be a lot or a little depending on what they're trying to do.

[JAMIE] That—it’s situational.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] It's like, it just depends on each, not only individual story, but each individual character.

[GRETA] Yeah. And I like the stories where magic is just kind of there. And it's not always explained, but for the charac—stories that I want to tell. Like, I want there to be a reason that the magic does what it does, like it has to tie for me to the theme in some way. So I think that's why I gravitate towards like, maybe healing magic, like in a story about redemption, or like, people coming back together or something like that, like I just like it to parallel the theme in some way. So that like resolutions, or like stakes will resonate on multiple levels.

[KARLI] Yeah, I like that, too.

[JAMIE] This is one of those, let's be honest parts. When I'm defining the level of detail and what needs to be explained, it's the balance between, I really don't want to have to write a giant explanation of this. And, what does my reader absolutely have to know for the story to work?

[GRETA] Right.

[JAMIE] In general, my my own writing is the least amount of work in still achieve the effect I want to achieve.

[GRETA] Right?

[KARLI] And I'm the opposite, where I'm like, how much can I get away with? How much can I put in here before Jamie's like, “Karli, they don't need to know this. It's cool. But it needs to do something besides just be here for, for pretty.” [laughs]

[GRETA] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Do you want to keep it keep it make it work for something. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah, it's tough because I like the sense of wonder. And I think in that I am definitely tap way more into the epic fantasy where things are there for the sense of wonder. But the really good ones have the sense of wonder that also has impact later on.

[GRETA] Yeah, so the payoff or kind of like fulfilling promises, like you want enough detail so that that resonates when it happens.

[KARLI] Does anybody have any examples of some favorite things that they didn't mention already that they wanted to make sure they had to bring up [chuckles] before we wrap this up?

[GRETA] Yeah, one that I wanted to mention was The Ocean at the End of the Lane just because like a, I love Neil Gaiman stories, and like how there's such a spectrum of like, different levels of like telling fairy tales, like actual fairy tales to like modern fairy tales. But the reason that I liked The Ocean at the End of the Lane was that the magic worked on that thematic level for me, like the story is about a character kind of transitioning from one world to another. And meanwhile, it's kind of a portal fantasy in like one of the most kind of gross and disturbing ways that I've seen it done in a book, [Greta and Karli chuckle] but it's kind of about like monsters, like breaking into our world, too. And so, yeah, that that paralleled the theme, like on a way that really resonated for me. And it was just like, I was kind of blown away by how well that worked. Like within such a short story.

[KARLI] Yeah. Unsettling.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] But yes, I, I love that one, too. I really like for character relationship to magic, The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin. The way that her different characters react to and manifest the magic within that world and how they view it for the way that society works is, chef's kiss. So interesting. If you're struggling with trying to figure out how that might look from different perspectives to—it's just, it's a really, really good book. All right. Well, um, Greta, did you have a two cent recommendation that you'd like to share with us?

[GRETA] I actually did not come up with a book. And I didn't come up with like anything related to magic.

[KARLI] That's okay.

[GRETA] Is that okay?

[KARLI] That's fine.

[GRETA] Okay.

[KARLI] You can share anything you want with us.

[GRETA] I have a recommendation for something that has been helping my writing process lately. And that is the Story Toolkit workshop, which is provided by Rachael Stephen. Her website is rachaelstephen.com. She's known for doing the plot embryo, but she has a workshop on kind of how she—her writing process, basically. And it was really helpful for me because it separates the writing process into kind of thinking about your story, like brainstorming problems in your story, deciding what goes into your story, like what becomes canon and then like integrating that into your manuscript. And it was just a really helpful way for me to think about approaching my story. It's free if you Google it. It's like a two hour workshop that you can take online, and I really recommend it.

[JAMIE] Awesome.

[KARLI] That's awesome. I really like her YouTube videos. I'll have to look into that. Nice.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] Well, thank you so much, Greta, for joining us.

[GRETA] Yeah.

[KARLI] We were so happy to have you here today. Thank you for sharing all of your insights.

[JAMIE] So good to have you back.

[GRETA] Yeah, it was good to be back.

[KARLI] You can find Greta on Instagram @greta.valentine.writes. Her short story, “The Raven Wife,” is fantastic. You can find that in the link tree on your Instagram. Correct?

[GRETA] Right.

[KARLI] Awesome. You can also find that story at Five on the Fifth and go into their archives. And yeah, that was last August, right?

[GRETA] Yeah, it was in the August 2021 issue.

[KARLI] Awesome. Thanks, listeners. You can find us on Instagram @theactbreak_podcast, on Twitter @theactbreak_. Our website is scifiohmy.com/podcast. You can find—uh, sign up for our newsletter as well as transcripts for our episodes there. If you follow us, you will get notifications for our new episodes. We'll be back next week.

[JAMIE] Thanks, Greta. Bye.

[GRETA] Yeah, thank you.